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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Nov 1985

Vol. 109 No. 11

Report of Ombudsman: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann takes note of the Annual Report of the Ombudsman for the year ended 31st December, 1984."
—(Senator McGonagle.)

I would like to make a brief contribution on this motion regarding the Report of the Ombudsman. I should start like other Senators in paying a great tribute to Mr. Mills. When the Bill came before this House to appoint Mr. Mills it was received with great enthusiasm. The feelings of Members of that time could be expressed in the title of one of Charles Dickens great novels Great Expectations both with regard to the Ombudsman and to the person who was selected to fill the position of the Ombudsman. Often our expectations are dashed or things may not reach the heights we would hope for but in this case there is no question but that our greatest expectations have been fulfilled by Mr. Mills. He is a man of great enthusiasm, ability and concern.

The authorised investigative staff in 1984 comprised of one director, one senior investigator and four investigators. The full complement of four investigators have only been appointed since August. Taking that into consideration the report is a very full one. In terms of reports as they come before the House the volume is rather slim. Indeed it would be much slimmer if it were not for the selected cases which were included. I have no doubt that in future years we will have much larger volumes. It would be nice to think that they will get smaller and that the work of the Ombudsman will decrease but I am afraid the situation in other countries and the situation as it is here points to the fact that the Ombudsman will have a very difficult job and an increasing role. Indeed, placed in a central position as he is, I think representations could be made to have officers distributed around the country and make accessibility easier. Perhaps officers of this type could be members of local authorities or other bodies who would fulfil this function part time.

In the report the Ombudsman referred to delays on page 22. He said that these were a matter of serious complaint. It is heartening to see from the report that the major concern of the Ombudsman is to ensure that complaints will be dealt with in his office as expeditiously as possible.

The Minister in his introductory speech stated:

Going on the experience of ombudsmen abroad it can be expected that a fair proportion of investigations will show that the administrative actions complained about were fair and reasonable in the circumstances. This is borne out by the statistics in the report which show that quite a number of complaints were not upheld.

This may very well be so, but a considerable number of complaints were upheld. I think the emphasis could equally be placed on this. The number of complaints received was 2,267. Within the jurisdiction there were 1,544 leaving 723 outside the jurisdiction. It would be proper to make a plea that the jurisdication of the Ombudsman should be extended into other areas. The Minister has referred to this and he has referred to the financial position which makes it difficult. Nevertheless, it is unfortunate that people in other areas which are not included within the jurisdiction of the Ombudsman should have to suffer because of this. I can think of other areas. One of them is the vocational education area. This is not an area that is included within the jurisdiction of the Ombudsman. It is a very important area and it should be considered as well as many other areas.

The number of complaints completed amounted to 1,013; 400 of these were resolved; assistance was provided in 148 cases; 294 were not upheld and 171 were discontinued or withdrawn. The Minister has given us reasons why some of these were discontinued or withdrawn. They may have been dealt with or people may have been made to realise that they had not a legitimate complaint.

It is very important that we discuss the Ombudsman's report in this House because while the Ombudsman cannot impose his findings on the public service he has the authority and the duty to bring his findings and recommendations to the Oireachtas. In this area it is most important and particularly in the area where the Ombudsman might not be able to get satisfaction because, as has been pointed out by the Minister, no authority would care to have its case in that situation discussed in this House. It is interesting to see the reference to the complaints from former civil servants and to see the situation where they are on the other side of the counter so to speak. By and large we cannot complain about the way we are treated by our civil servants. We are proud of them. Perhaps in some instances there may be cause for complaint but it is interesting to see that reference.

Another important area of the report is the suggested review of legislation in particular areas. On page 13 the report states under social insurance:

It is inequitable that persons who had paid more for social insurance stamps should get less benefits then those who paid less because the deciding factor was the number of years from their first contribution after 1953.

This is further developed on page 18 where it states:

. . . how frustrating it must have been for certain applicants for Old Age Contributory Pension to learn that if they had paid less contributions during their working lives they would have qualified. There is an inherent inequity in any system which treats those who have paid fewer contributions more favourably than those who have paid more.

This is self-evident. It is extraordinary that it has taken the Ombudsman to point out this anomaly and to have it corrected. Surely it is something that should have been obvious and must have been the subject of many complaints over the years. It is extraordinary that it is only when the complaints have been taken up by the Ombudsman and recommendations made for review that this matter will be considered.

The law of domicile is something about which I have heard complaints many times in this House. The domicile of a wife is that of her husband even where they are estranged or living apart and even perhaps where the husband is living in a different country. This is wrong and surely should have been attended to before now. Also with regard to the deserted husband there is the anomaly whereby a deserted wife in particular circumstances would receive about £20 per week more than a husband under the same conditions. This is an anomaly which should have been obvious. It should have been corrected without having to be brought forward by the Ombudsman.

There is the tax anomaly where a widow with a child is receiving an annual income above a comparatively low level from an insurance company and the mother is not able to claim from the Revenue Commissioners either the child allowance of £100 or the personal allowance of £1,300 as a single parent. This is an area about which many complaints were made. Something should have been done before now.

In relation to trade disputes the report states that under the provisions of social welfare legislation persons who do not stand to gain materially from a strike by fellow workers can still be prevented from obtaining unemployment benefits if they are regarded as being members of the same grade or class. Complaints have been made in this regard and nothing has been done. I am glad to see from the Minister's report that in all these areas something will be done.

It also seems inequitable and wrong that payment is delayed particularly for a long time and that no allowance is made for increases in costs or devaluation in currency. I was very interested in Senator McGonagle's contribution where he pointed out that the Ombudsman had the power to make a recommendation for an ex gratia payment in those circumstances. I am sure this will be done. It was one of the many interesting facets of Senator McGonagle's contribution and the fact that he has been an Ombudsman in the North made it all the more interesting.

The valuation of property, where this could take place when a person was abroad, for example, is another area where something should have been done before now. I presume that antiquated law referred to is the 1898 Local Government Act. It seems extraordinary that an Act that is almost a century old should still be enforced when such developments have taken place with regard to the materials that are used. In those days, for example, lead and copper pipes were the norm and a soldered joint was a work of art on a lead or copper pipe. Nowadays I am sure there are many skilled craftsmen who are unable to do a soldered joint and yet those conditions apply with regard to drains, for example, as opposed to sewers. This is an area where it is important that review of the legislation would be carried out without any greater delay.

There are other areas which were mentioned by previous speakers. Senator Lanigan referred to the position in the area of social welfare where people receiving benefit did not receive their cheque in the post. On telephoning the particular Department which dealt with their problem they were told that there was an industrial dispute and the information could not be given. This is most unfortunate. I am sure the Minister would understand the special problem of people on low incomes like that, people with families. I know a number of cases of people coming to me who had to spend 50p to £1 on the phone and more if the call did not run smoothly, maybe another 50p. Those people could not afford this expense. I feel that it was not good enough. Something should have been done such as providing a freephone service for those people. Recently, as Members of the Oireachtas, we were circulated with numbers we can phone to get early information on problems regarding old age pensions and so on. This is most important, I welcome very much that we have that facility where we can phone without the delay of waiting for a reply to a letter. This is to be commended. I cannot see why some similar arrangement could not have been made for people who had these problems, people who did not receive their benefit in the post. Surely it would have been possible to provide a free service or that the Department would undertake the responsibility for payment. I ask the Minister if this could be done.

Another area which was discussed in regard to An Bord Telecom is in regard to disputes in relation to telephone accounts. It is dealt with on page 20 under "Telephone Accounts." The report states:

As I have explained early in this Report I am empowered by law to carry out investigations into complaints about disputed telephone accounts as well as unsatisfactory or faulty telephone service which arose only during the period between 7 July 1983, the effective commencement date of the Ombudsman Act, 1980, and 31 December, 1983, the date on which certain functions of the former Department of Posts and Telegraphs were transferred to Bord Telecom Éireann.

The position with regard to telephone accounts is most unsatisfactory. Many people have complained that phone bills are too high. I made representations for a number of people who told me that there was no way that they could have made the phone calls that they were charged for in their accounts.

There is no way of checking this out. There is no way, for example, of proving that somebody did not use the phone when the people of the house were away or when somebody was out of the office. A few years back, before this sophisticated arrangement we have now came into operation, by payment of a small extra fee it was possible to get a list of the trunk calls that were made during the period chargeable. That was very helpful. The trunk calls, of course, in all cases make up the larger part of the account It is impossible to get that list now. In effect, we are going backwards. I cannot see why, with all the sophisticated equipment it is possible to get, that some simple arrangement cannot be included to monitor the calls. I know it is possible to get equipment to lock up a phone to take only incoming calls, but that is not satisfactory. When a person in business is presenting a bill charges are itemised. I see no reason why Bord Telecom Éireann should not have to itemise the phone calls that are made, their duration, the dates on which they were made and so on. I believe it would cost a little extra, but I also believe that people would not object to paying the extra cost if they were presented with an account they could check.

On a point of order, there is a remedy for any telephone subscriber. He can rent a meter.

That is not a point of order.

The Senator was not correct.

Acting Chairman

It is not a point of order.

It was a mannerly interruption.

I am glad to learn that it is possible to rent a meter. Perhaps the Senator would point out if the meter would do exactly what I say, give the date, the time, the number phoned and the cost of each phone call. If it is possible to get that meter it is all the more reason why An Bord Telecom should use equipment of that kind. I have no doubt there would be less discontent among subscribers if they could check their accounts. I would certainly like to make a recommendation that a metering arrangement be used for all subscribers.

I note that the Ombudsman has no power to force people to accept his recommendations, but if they do not they can come here before the Oireachtas. That is pressure enough to make sure that his recommendations will be accepted. I also note from the report that he was taken to court on a number of occasions — this has been commended by the Minister — to see exactly what the situation was.

The actions of private companies, of course, are outside the scope of the Ombudsman. Complaints relating to recruitment, pay and conditions of employment were referred to specifically by the Minister in regard to personnel. I accept that that would be a difficult situation for him and a difficult role to fill. I do not think there is any great demand for the powers of the Ombudsman to extend into this area.

I want to refer to the map which shows the extent of the works of the Ombudsman over the time, the numbers in each county. I notice that County Meath has 41, Leitrim is the lowest with four, and Dublin is the highest with 535. I would like to see the country divided into subareas to make accessibility easier. I am glad that the Ombudsman, in travelling over parts of the country to promote his work and to deal with people who have complaints, visited Navan on his first itinerary. I am not sure what the result was in Navan but I hope it was satisfactory.

Like the other Members I warmly welcome the report of the Ombudsman. I hope that it will get smaller in future years, but the probability is that it will be quite a large volume the next time. I congratulate the Ombudsman on his work and I congratulate his staff. I would just like to repeat my representations to the Minister that despite the financial constraints the power of the Ombudsman should be extended to many other areas.

I should like to join other Senators in welcoming the first annual report of the Ombudsman, for 1984, and to compliment him, and his staff, for the efficient way he handled his office in his first year of operation. The aim of the Ombudsman is to ensure that the ordinary man in the street gets fair play in dealing with administration and if he has been wronged he has remedial action available to him.

It is obvious from the number of complaints received that the setting up of this office was most desirable. In its first year of operation 2,267 complaints were received, of which 1,544 were within the jurisdiction of the Ombudsman. Of these 1,013 were completed and 531 were carried forward to 1985. Complaints came from all walks of life and from every section of the community. It was interesting to note, however, that social welfare accounted for almost half of the complaints, with a figure of 744. The next highest was with the Revenue Commissioners.

I welcome the fact that the civil servants in these two Departments gave their fullest co-operation to the Ombudsman in trying to resolve these cases. Without the co-operation of the civil servants solutions could not have been found to the many problems encountered and thus the work of the Ombudsman would have been greatly hindered. However, the report stated that a certain section of senior civil servants did not co-operate and, indeed, resented the intrusion and the questioning of their decisions. I presume that is understandable because in the setting up of any new Department there was bound to be a great deal of suspicion. At this point I would expect that the suspicion had gone and that a good relationship with the public service exists.

Public servants make decisions every day affecting the lives of thousands of people and it is not possible for them to be right in every decision. Mistakes are made and will be made again. As a result, people need and avenue for redress. I am glad the Ombudsman stated in his report that his position is not to be misinterpreted or compared with the role of public representatives who continuously make queries and representations on behalf of their constituents.

The Ombudsman's office was set up under an Act of the Oireachtas to investigate complaints by citizens against the public service and to establish whether or not Departments had been guilty of maladministration. The posing of the question, "If I were on the other side of the table would I like to be treated in this way"? is a good reminder to any civil servant. If they ask that question from time to time it will ensure that each case will be treated as fairly as possible. Good administration means more than doing what is precisely legal. It means fairness, taking care and good communications. The essential function of the Ombudsman's job is to promote fairness.

The report also raises questions in areas where reviews of social legislation should take place. The anomalies in the laws of domicile are mentioned, which have been of great concern over the years; also the case of the deserted husband vis-à-vis the deserted wife, where she can get an additional £20 per week allowance and indeed the old problem of the system of determining the entitlement of people to the contributory old age pension. It is right that the Ombudsman should raise these questions. However, as legislators we also have a duty to see that these anomalies are terminated. I welcome the Minister's statement that the Government are taking action in a number of these areas.

In his report the Ombudsman states that members of his staff are now visiting regional areas for the purpose of interviewing complainants at local level. This is a very positive step forward in so far as people are not always in a position to come to Dublin to make their complaints. I realise they could have them written or phoned but in many cases the person to person contact is the only solution. An extension to the areas mentioned in the report will be welcome and worthwhile, particularly when it has been shown in the geographical diagram that complaints were received from all of the 26 counties. Particular attention should, of course, be given to the high density urban areas.

In relation to the publicising of the services of the Ombudsman's office, I feel more should be done. The Minister has mentioned the areas in which posters and local advertisements are placed but there should be more television and radio advertising outlining the services available, particularly as the office is a new one. I am satisfied that if I conducted a survey in my area it would show that the vast majority of people would not understand the function or the role of the Ombudsman and indeed, even in some cases might not even be aware of his existence.

Like Senator McGonagle, I would recommend that a major publicity campaign be put into action. I welcome the extension of the Ombudsman's remit to cover local authorities and health boards and also to include An Post and An Bord Telecom. I have no doubt that when we are reading the 1985 report there will be a big increase in the number of complaints as some of these areas are very contentious. There is a big challenge ahead for the Ombudsman and I wish him and his staff every success in meeting this challenge.

I would like to thank the Senators who have contributed to the debate for the very high level and genuine degree of praise which they have extended to the Ombudsman and his staff for their work in investigating complaints during the first year in existence of the Ombudsman's office. There were a number of useful comments made during the debate. It is clear also that there is general agreement on most of the issues which were raised in the report. I would like to make reference to a couple of those and comment on them.

Members of the House were concerned about the lack of co-operation from some Departments of State. The efficient discharge of the Ombudsman's role depends to a large extent on the full co-operation of all the agencies covered by the Ombudsman's remit and each individual member of their staff. I want to repeat again that this co-operation will be expected from now on. Any lack of co-operation will be seen as an attempt to frustrate the explicit intentions of the Government and of the Oireachtas and will not be tolerated. It is an area that will be kept under close scrutiny and I hope that it will not be necessary to make any further comment on the matter. I was heartened indeed to see that a number of Senators, in the course of their contributions made reference to the same point and called for the greatest possible degree of co-operation from the staff of the public bodies within the Ombudsman's remit with his inquiries and investigations.

The other question which received most attention by speakers was that of delayed payments. The comments, particularly of Senator McGonagle, were particularly interesting. Needless to say, of course, the question of the Ombudsman making recommendations on any matter under investigation is entirely for himself. However, the Government are concerned about the anomalies highlighted by the Ombudsman in his report, as I said in my remarks earlier in the debate. I would like to repeat that the report has been brought to the attention of the Ministers concerned. The Government have asked each Minister to take appropriate action to remove the anomalies in so far as it is possible to do so and within the resources available.

It is only fair to say that the question of introducing legislation to provide for the payment of interest by the State in the cases of delayed payment has wider implications than just the social welfare area. The Minister for Finance will, I am sure, wish to study the matter from the point of view of the potential additional expenditure involved. The whole matter is, however, a clear example of the very useful role which the Ombudsman can fulfil in pointing to cases where remedial action may be required on a level other than, for example, purely administrative changes at departmental level.

I would like once again, as I have had occasion to do several times in the last year or two in this House, to thank Senator McGonagle, whose contributions as a former Ombudsman in Northern Ireland is always particularly useful and relevant. I would have to say that to a large extent I share his views, especially the views which he expressed regarding the necessity to step up the amount of publicity and publicity material available, making people aware of the existence of the Ombudsman's office and of its role. Similar comments were made by Senator Fitzsimons and by Senator Kelleher.

I explained to the House previously that I have urged the Ombudsman to become more involved in publicising the work of his office. I do not think it is that the Ombudsman wishes to hide his light under a bushel but the sheer physical problem of setting up the office in its first year and then, when it was essentially just one year old, having its remit more than doubled in the size of the areas under investigation, have created their own demands on the time and resources of the Ombudsman and his staff. Bearing that in mind the publicity campaigns that he has engaged in to date have been reasonable.

As the House will know, he has been engaged in an increase in the level of publicity associated with the office. As I explained to the House, when I spoke earlier, he has begun to embark on a series of regional or provincial tours to visit towns in various parts of Ireland. As Senator Fitzsimons said, Navan was one of the first of those towns. Those visits to those provincial centres will be useful in developing an awareness of the concept of the Ombudsman and his role. I was a little disappointed to hear Senator Kelleher suggest that were he to conduct a poll of his neighbours and constituents he felt that a large number of them would not be aware of the role or functions of the Ombudsman and that some of them might not be aware of his existence. I would like to say, in the kindest possible way, that I disagree with the Senator. I do not believe that there is such a low level of awareness of the existence of the Ombudsman's office.

There was quite a lot of publicity attached to the setting up of the office. On a regular basis I know that the Ombudsman avails of invitations extended to him to speak at various public functions in different parts of the country and to appear on the national airwaves. There is, for such a new office, a surprisingly high level of awareness of its existence. I hope that were the Senator to conduct that poll the results would be pleasantly surprising to him — not that I hope the Senator will have any excuse or opportunity for conducting polls in his area or constituency for the next number of years.

Senator Lanigan referred specifically to the points regarding lack of co-operation on the part of certain public servants in the course of last year. He referred specifically to the attitude adopted by An Bord Telecom towards their customers. I have explained to the House previously by that it was because of the high level of customer dissatisfaction which all of us, as public representatives, were aware of, on the part of the general public in relation to An Bord Telecom that the Government extended the remit of the Ombudsman specifically to this area. I hope that his intervention into the system will help to bring about a more courteous and efficient service from An Bord Telecom to the general public.

I would like to thank Senator Higgins, Senator Kelleher and Senator Fitzsimons for their contributions also. It is always heartening to have a generally positive response to a debate from Senators on all sides of the House. Finally, may I say that the means by which the Oireachtas considers future reports of the Ombudsman is one on which I have an open mind. That might best be considered in the light of developments over the next year or so and in light of consideration of this debate and the debate on the report which is yet to take place in the other House.

Question put and agreed to.
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