I move:
That Seanad Éireann approves the following regulations in draft:
Social Welfare (Insurance Inclusions and Exclusions) Regulations, 1985
a copy of which regulations was laid before Seanad Éireann on 29 November, 1985.
Social Welfare (Insurance Inclusions and Exclusions) Regulations, 1985: Motion.
Senator O'Brien is moving the amendment on my behalf and I reserve the right to speak later.
The regulations deal with insurability of employment under the Social Welfare Acts and the need for it arises specifically from a particular problem with which the Church of Ireland has been faced.
By virtue of the provisions of paragraph 7 of Part II of the First Schedule to the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981, where a person is a minister of religion any employment which he may have is excluded from insurability under the Social Welfare Acts. In recent times the Church of Ireland has introduced a new auxiliary ministry as part of its pastoral ministry. Auxiliary ministers are persons who are ordained in Holy Orders but continue with their normal day-to-day jobs in the secular world. They carry out pastoral duties in their leisure time, voluntarily and on an unpaid basis. Because they are ministers of religion who are ordained in Holy Orders, auxiliary ministers are excluded from insurance under the Social Welfare Acts in their secular employment by virtue of the existing legal provisions. The number of persons involved are few — no more than ten I understand — but some have been paying social insurance contributions for a long time and the Church of Ireland has represented to me that it would be inequitable that they should be deprived of continuing social insurance cover in their normal day-to-day secular occupations because of their voluntary spare-time pastoral activities. I am satisfied the existing statutory provision would constitute an inequity in so far as the auxiliary ministers are concerned and I have agreed to meet the representations made to me by the Church of Ireland authorities. I am grateful to Senator Catherine McGuinness in particular for bringing this problem to my attention in the first instance. I would like to thank her for the interest she took in the matter and for the advice she gave me in dealing with it.
The purpose of the regulations, therefore, is to remedy the position by amending paragraph 7 of Part II of the First Schedule to the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act 1981. For constitutional reasons it is necessary to draft the regulation in such a way that it may be applied to all religious denominations and not to one denomination only. A provision of a somewhat similar nature was made in 1974 to bring into social insurance ministers of religion who are engaged full time on pastoral work for which they receive remuneration and in respect of whom the appropriate Church body has made representations to the effect that they should be insurable.
In practice what will happen is that an appropriate body or authority for a religious class will make representations to the effect that it is unreasonable that their secular employment should not be insurable employment under the Social Welfare Acts and this will enable me to have the employments in question treated as insurable under the Social Welfare Acts. The Church of Ireland is the body immediately concerned but, by virtue of the way in which the regulation has been drafted, it can apply equally to any religious denomination.
Under subsection 6 of section 5 of the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981, the regulations may not be made until a resolution approving the draft regulations has been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. The regulations were considered by the Dáil on 10 December 1985 and were approved by that House.
I am happy to recommend the draft regulations to Seanad Éireann.
What can be said generally and with some degree of certainty is that in the whole area of the social welfare code there are many anomalies and many cases of injustices. At this time of the year one immediately thinks of the free fuel scheme where, unfortunately, only certain categories of social welfare recipients benefit from the scheme, whereas the need is the more important thing. Here we have a situation where, in my opinion, you have a degree of injustice. It is a further anomaly in the social welfare code and I am pleased that the Minister has responded to it quickly and has acted correctly and wisely. As the explanatory note attached to the draft makes quite clear, under the provisions of paragraph 7 of Part II of the First Schedule to the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981, where an employed person is a person in Holy Orders or other minister of religion or person living in a religious community as a member thereof, the employment of that person is not insurable under the Social Welfare Acts.
Further on, it makes the point that the regulations provide for the insurability of the employment of such a person in a secular capacity where the person is a member of the class of persons in respect of which the appropriate authority, acting on behalf of members of that class, has represented to the Minister that it is unreasonable that their secular employment should not be insurable employment. As the Minister for Social Welfare has indicated here, while it is a general statement and we know it is for a specific purpose it, nonetheless can, I believe, and would apply in the future, as the Minister has indicated, and could apply to any religious denomination. Here we are talking about a specific group of people — the Church of Ireland. As the Minister has clearly indicated in his own statement to us, the Church of Ireland has introduced a new auxiliary ministry as part of its pastoral ministry. I am sure — the Minister has not mentioned it — that we are talking about a handful of people; but, nonetheless, a handful of very important people and obviously dedicated people. It is right and proper that the Minister has responded positively to the Hierarchy of the Church of Ireland in this area. As I said, they may be only a handful of people, a handful nonetheless of dedicated people and it is their right not to be discriminated against in the area of social welfare.
This draft is not one that we would dwell on for too long. All we can say is that the Minister has acted wisely and well and has responded well to the request of the Hierarchy of the Church of Ireland. It is there for other religious denominations should a case present itself in the future. My view certainly would be that they have my support and I have pleasure in welcoming the entire draft regulation as presented to us here this evening.
I would like to join in welcoming the draft regulations. I congratulate the Minister on the promptness with which he has acceded to the request made to him by the Representative Body of the Church of Ireland. It would be inequitable that ordained ministers who are willing to do pastoral work in their leisure time voluntarily and on an unpaid basis should be excluded from insurance under the Social Welfare Acts. The draft regulations propose to amend that and I am glad to see it happen.
We live in a time when a great deal of pastoral work by qualified people is necessary. It is a very welcome thing in society that we have people such as these auxiliary ministers who are ordained first of all in Holy Orders but who are prepared to devote their leisure time and on an unpaid basis to voluntary work. Society is much better for having people of that kind. It certainly would not be the wish of the people to penalise them in any way because of the work that they do in that field. For these reasons the draft regulations are very welcome.
I welcome this provision also. I want to commend the Minister on the speed with which he set about this problem when Senator McGuinness brought it to his attention. Indeed, I had discussions with Senator McGuinness myself on the problem. Because the numbers are so small, were it not for her intervention it is possible that it might never have come to our notice. The Minister must be commended for his action. Even if there were only ten people — even if there was only one person — involved, obviously it would be discrimination. Particularly in the case of auxiliary ministers ordained in Holy Orders, but who continue a normal life and give up their leisure time to pastoral duties, it is vital that they should not be discriminated against in any way under the Social Welfare Acts.
We know, as Senator Fallon has said, how complicated the social welfare code is. At times it is difficult to explain to ordinary people the various intricacies of it. The consolidation of the social welfare code has been a major problem and an area of major difficulty in trying to communicate with people about their entitlements.
This is a simple provision, one in that it now extends to this particular category the appropriate benefit. I note it is a matter for the Church of Ireland to make a formal request to the Minister. Then the order will come into force and these Ministers will automatically be covered.
The reverse probably could happen in other religious groups where you have priests who give most of their time in teaching posts or in other community work as well. It is important that when people give of their time without remueration or indeed any other compensation the Social Welfare Acts should not discriminate against them.
I commend the Minister for the humane way in which he has approached this matter. The fact that so few people are involved in irrelevant, but I congratulate the Minister for having acted with speed and compassion, I commend the order to the House: it has, I feel, the support of everybody.
I would like to make a few brief comments. It is altogether appropriate that we should make an accommodation under the social welfare code for this provision. This tradition whereby the Christian ministry is combined with everyday work is one that is long established even if, as it were, intermittent in the history of the Christian Church. Peter continued to fish even after being called to the ministry. It is, I think, in the Acts of the Apostles that we read that at certain times in his ministry Paul supported himself by his own trade of tent-making. In my own denomination we had the movement of worker priests for a long time. That has now gone into recession because of the difficulties in combining full involvement in the workplace with the pastoral ministry. This is a long tradition but it is one that in the different denominations has waxed strong at times and waned at others.
My second point relates to something the Minister said in his speech. He thanked Senator Catherine McGuinness for bringing this question to his attention. It is only right that I should say that Senator McGuinness had hoped to be in the Chamber this afternoon in order to thank the Minister for having dealt so thoroughly with the problem which she raised. Unfortunately, she has been delayed by a professional engagement in court. She had hoped that, with the court rising at 4 p.m., she could have been in the House at this time, but that was not so. I would like to express thanks on her behalf and the general thanks of every Member of the Seanad to the Minister for what he has done in this instance.
May I thank Senators for their commendation on the introduction of this measure. I would stress that, whereas the regulation specifically applies to the Church of Ireland Ministers in this instance, it is framed so that it can apply to all denominations. I have no doubt that in the years ahead we will receive affirmative representations from a number of areas which will give the regulation a universal application. I am very pleased to be able to bring in this basic reform. It also shows that the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981, under which the regulation is enacted, is an exceptionally valuable piece of consolidation. The enabling provisions of that Act have stood the test of time and are very useful on this occasion.
Question put and agreed to.