Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Feb 1986

Vol. 111 No. 4

Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries: Motion.

Mr. Connor

I move:

That the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries shall be empowered to take evidence in public and to include with any report which it may make minutes of such evidence."

This measure is designed to broaden the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries. Since its inception this committee, of which I am a member has done very useful work in highlighting the great international tragedy of world hunger and poverty, and Ireland's role in the field of development aid. A very important part of the committee's work has been the taking of submissions from the myriad of individuals and bodies who work both directly and indirectly in the whole area of development aid and who work in developing countries and in the whole area of development co-operation, whether it be abroad or here at home. These people are working often in the very poor countries of the world or countries that we would describe as totally impoverished. We are prohibited under the present terms of reference from making public the vast corpus of submissions that we have taken from these various people which I have mentioned. This has been a restriction on our work, because we see it as a very important part of our role to highlight the work of the committee and to highlight it by publishing the direct evidence of people who have been on the ground and who are intimately involved in that work.

I am recommending to the House that we pass this measure. I might also mention that the Minister of State, who I am glad to see here with us this morning, has commended the work of the committee very highly. He has indicated that he intends to incorporate many of the recommendations of the committee to date in furture legislation in this area.

Mr. Lanigan

We would go along totally with the extension of the rules to allow evidence to be taken in public. There has been a feeling abroad that the right use has not been made of aid from countries such as Ireland to the developing countries. The aid which has been given has been given to the wrong areas and for the wrong reasons. It is about time the Joint Committee were able to take evidence in public and that this evidence would be given to the newspapers or given to anybody looking for it. We have heard from people in the Third World too often that their wishes and their desires in regard to aid from outside are not taken into account. Too often the aid that is given is given by the donor country for its own reasons — some of which are not in any way meant to help the country which is receiving the aid but rather to extend the area of influence of the donor country.

As Senator Connor has said, the work of the Joint Committee has been excellent. The amount of time they have spent in trying to work out a cohesive policy on co-operation with developing countries has been enormous. Again, I wish to concur with the remarks that the Senator has made regarding the work of the committee and to say that we on this side of the House would welcome the extension of the powers of the committee to take evidence and that the evidence should be published.

Mrs. Bulbulia

I, too, would like to add a brief word of welcome to this extension of the powers of the committee. It is extremely important that stitched into the record of public affairs in this country would be the views of people who are experienced in matters of development co-operation. It is valuable and important in our national debate on these matters to have a written record made before a parliamentary committee of the views of such people. I had the pleasure of work ing on the all-party Committee on Marital Breakdown. Part of that work involved the taking of evidence from experienced individuals and groups in the field of marital breakdown. When the committee were coming to conclusions on decisions it was extremely valuable to have that body of information to refer to and to lean on when making decisions. I would very much support this extension of the powers of the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries. There is an increasing and growing public awareness of this whole area. Anything that will enhance and develop that is to be welcomed. I certainly feel that his motion today has that merit accordingly, I am happy to support it.

Mr. McDonald

I, too, am very pleased to see this extension of powers to the Joint Committee. I believe that the Joint Committee serve a very useful purpose. Up to now they have been hindered to some extent by the demands of their terms of reference. I would hope that the Minister, and the Minister for Finance, would perhaps be a little bit more liberal in facilitating the Joint Committee to oversee the way the Irish taxpayers' money is spent on specific projects in selected Third World countries.

Last year a number of members of that committee had the opportunity for the first time of visiting some of our projects. The amount of finance being made available by the Irish taxpayers through the development aid programme is now very considerable. It is important that the members of the Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas should be familiar to the extent of seeing for themselves the work and the projects that our funds are promoting and facilitating. It is not possible to get to terms with the programme unless our colleagues on the Joint Committee can see the work for themselves, can evaluate it and perhaps suggest amendments or changes in the actual organisation of the programme itself.

In the four or five countries which we specifically support in this way the different projects vary greatly. It is important that the Members of the House should be up to date on that. Last month we saw where there were some political difficulties in Lesotho. That country gets the greater proportion of our aid. I would hope that in this coming year it would be possible for the Department to expend a higher proportion on Governmental aid through co-operatives, through either religious or lay volunteers working in the fields themselves. In that way valuable projects, especially in the co-operative line, can be directly, efficiently and effectively aided. I would ask that the Government would consider allocating a higher proportion of the funds in this way.

I welcome this extension of powers to the Joint Committee. I wish them well in their work. It is very important. There is a great awareness of the problems that developing countries contend with at the present time. We would need to keep abreast of the developments. While this does not effectively come within the scope of this debate, I see that one of the Church charitable organisations has gone into the political business by renting huge hoardings on the roadways, thus more or less asking for political changes in some of the developing countries.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Mr. J. O'Keeffe)

I came here in relation to the next motion but I would make a few comments if I thought it was useful to do so. However, I am entirely in the Cathaoirleach's hands.

As I am here, I will take the opportunity of commenting on the excellent work being done by this Joint Committee. When I was first appointed Minister of State with special responsibility in this area I felt that it was important that Members of both Houses should be more involved in discussing aspects of our relations with developing countries. It is for that reason I made the proposals that this Joint Committee should be set up. I am pleased that so far it has proved its worth. The committee has produced excellent reports and, as mentioned by Senator Connor, a number of recommendations are already forming part of the policies which I am now implementing.

In relation to the question of visits by Members overseas, I can say quite categorically that I am not in favour of junkets, but I do not classify the first-hand experience that can be gained by seeing conditions in developing countries and examining programmes as in any way a junket. In fact, I came back from Africa only yesterday. I can assure the House that I would not suggest that anyone would undertake the type of schedule that one does in visiting aid programmes as a holiday outing. At the same time, the point made by Senator McDonald is quite correct. I believe that Members of the Oireachtas would gain a broader insight into the problems of developing countries and would be in a better position to have greater expertise in suggesting solutions or amendments to existing policies if they had an opportunity of seeing the conditions and programmes at first hand. I am very glad that one group visited two countries last year and duly reported in great detail on their visit. I found the report quite useful. I am hoping that over the period of this term of the Dáil at least one further visit can be arranged, if not two, so that all the members of the committee would have some experience of the situation in developing countries.

Going back to the motion, it is quite clear at this stage that the recommendation made to me by the Joint Committee on the question of taking evidence in public is very valid. Having examined it I have no hestiation whatsoever in recommending that it be implemented. This motion has been approved by the other House. I am very glad that the views expressed by both sides of the House indicate that this House is also in favour of it.

Mr. Connor

In conclusion, I would like to thank everyone who has spoken, especially the Opposition for their total co-operation in this area. As I stated at the outset, this is an important committee. Maybe it is not as well known as it should be, but its fame is continuing to grow nationally. This in no small measure has been due to the very good work of our capable chairman, Deputy Nora Owen, and indeed all the other members who attend regularly.

This motion which has now been passed by the Oireachtas in both Houses gives us the right to examine witnesses in public and to publish the evidence. At the moment we are examining that awful problem of apartheid in South Africa. This is just one area of our work. Last year our report dealt with the whole area of Ireland's development aid, whether direct assistance or indirect assistance by the various agencies in various countries, and as I said we were somewhat restricted. We had a vast corpus of submissions from various people which we were very often restricted in publishing, but the passage of this motion removes that particular restriction. I thank the House for their co-operation.

Question put and agreed to.