Could I ask the Minister a question? There is a general annoyance about fares. It would be wrong of me to say that people do not ask the questions that they should ask. Sometimes flights come from London to Cork which are not always full. That is quite understandable but at the same time people say to me that Aer Lingus are not prepared to accept people on the conditions of the lower fare. In other words, Aer Lingus hold a number of seats at the enormous charge of £240. There is another fare of £109, provided you book two weeks in advance. Should they not be considered, because on the day when the plane may be only half full, there are people on stand-by prepared to take a low fare. We are not giving the initiative or certainly not motivating people to use our air transport systems because of the high cost. The Minister, like other Ministers, has given many arguments why Aer Lingus can charge so high for such a short flight in comparison to other flights to other areas up and down Great Britain and for that matter to other parts of Ireland. Yet throughout the week planes fly in and out of Cork to and from London half empty. Are we considering any means of filling the planes? Let me give an example. Other airlines we have given a licence to, and which use much smaller aircraft, flying from Cork to Cardiff, from where one has a three-hour train journey to London, charge a fare of only £110. That plane is always full. Let us be realistic. If you are charged £110 to get to one city from where you can get a train to London, taking another three hours, you will do so rather than pay the double fare to Aer Lingus. Aer Lingus must see the light and say: "If we are not going to charge £110 or £120, surely there can be a compromise to fill the aircraft". That is the argument that I am trying to make. Should we not have a first priority to giving a proper service. Many people say to me that they are quite prepared to fly on other aircraft out of Cork to another city in Britain and then take a three-hour train journey for a much lesser cost. It is about £110. At the same time they are prepared to take five to seven hours to get to London rather than go by Aer Lingus for £240. There are times when the plane could be filled up quite easily at a lesser price.
Air Transport Bill, 1984: Committee and Final Stages.
It is standard worldwide practice for a scheduled airline to submit their tariffs for approval by the State which they serve. This legislation we are now passing enables the Minister to require, on foot of a notice of writing, the written submission by airlines and the particulars of any tariff or proposal in advance of its implementation. What the Senator is referring to is the possibility of a two-tier system within the one aircraft flying in at that time. The possibility is there, but he has to get approval for it in the ordinary way as required by this legislation. If a package of that nature is submitted by an airline then it is a matter for the Minister to see whether this conforms with the various rules and regulations. The facility for it exists within the present legislation.
I appreciate the Minister's reply. Could the Minister demand of the airline that they give further consideration to more seats at the lower price?
I am very well aware that the airlines are commercial bodies and are naturally anxious to maximise their own commercial advantage and to negate as much as possible the disadvantages. Nothing can be more disadvantageous than an empty seat. Sometimes it is difficult for the lay person to understand the suggestion you put forward. What they have to do is take the other users into consideration. If you take the much talked of high-profile return flight between London and Amsterdam, which is £45, what has happened there is that certain sections within the plane are partitioned off, so that you have a two-tier system within the one flight.
I certainly would be delighted to convey the Senator's comments to our airlines and ask them for their comments and to put forward his suggestions for their consideration.
I mentioned on Second Stage the problems we have in relation to tourism interests with particular reference to the cost of a flight from London to Dublin or Cork. There is a huge discrepancy. Is the main cost factor in the take-off or at the landing stage where so much fuel is absorbed and money wasted? If we relate the price of a flight from Dublin to London with a flight from London to New York or Boston there is a huge discrepancy. Compared with the £45 flight from London to Amsterdam, which the Minister mentioned, the fee quoted for the flight from Dublin to London seems to be ridiculous. It is common practice for people to drive to Belfast and take a flight to London. It is much cheaper. It is much cheaper for three people to travel by boat to England and take a train to their destination than it is for a single fare flight from Dublin to London. That is the point of principle we are discussing in this amendment, which I support.
First of all, to get back to the earlier points by the Cork Senator, I am happy to advise him and all Senators that some Apex fares from Cork to London in 1986 are being reduced by 8 per cent. This agreement happened in the last week. As regards the Dublin-London flight, which invariably comes up, I will deal with it at length on Report Stage. There has been an EC Commission study in recent times which shows that less than 40 per cent of the cost of any particular flight is within the complete control of the airlines. Having said that, it is a fact that Senators on Second Stage expressed reservations and concern on the cost of the flight from Dublin to London. In the course of the reply I pointed out that the Minister in recent times had authorised a Dublin-Luton flight, which could be regarded as a Dublin-London flight, to Ryan Air for £99. Certainly, this is going to be watched very closely to see how the airline will fare regarding capacity, the use of this route and how they will fare as far as the economics of running this particular flight are concerned.
I also mentioned that in recent times I met Mr. Spicer, the UK Minister for Aviation, where we inaugurated talks on a bilateral basis on the liberalisation of air transport between our countries. Officials will be meeting within the next week or two on that particular aspect. In the past I have noted all that has been said on the Dublin-London flight. This again has been referred to by Senator Lynch. I would have an obligation to refer this matter also to Aer Lingus, who are, of course, the main carriers on this route, and to give them the observations and wisdom of the Members of this House on this aspect.
On a point of information, the Minister mentioned the Apex fare, which is much cheaper. Apart from the tourism aspect, this flight is totally unsuitable for the business sector. To avail of the lower fare one must sacrifice their weekend. Most business people — I am talking about retailers, publicans and hoteliers — main business transactions take place at the weekend. The pubs are empty for most of the time during midweek. But on Saturday and Sunday nights any businessman who wants to stay in business must be there to supervise his staff. The Apex fare flight is out as far as this section of the community are concerned as one has to stay overnight on the Saturday and come back on the Sunday. It is totally unsuitable and that is one of the reasons why it is not being availed of.
I am aware of the conditions attaching to the Apex fare flight. Coming back to the famous London-Amsterdam flight, apparently the trick is to find anyone who has succeeded in fulfilling all the conditions by which one can get there and back again, because it is totally surrounded by a very restrictive conditions. I understand that one cannot book at the airport; you have to book at some downtown office. One has to repeat the booking on the far side coming back. I agree that the Apex flights are very restricted. I agree they are very restrictive, I am able to tell the Senator that the Ryan Air flight for £99, which I just mentioned, is totally unrestricted. It is possible to book on that and it is not confined as are the Apex flights.
I would like to congratulate the Minister and his Department on the fact that this service is now going to be a reality. However, what concerns me is that we are going to have an unrestricted Ryan Air fare of £99 side by side with an Aer Lingus/BA fare of £204. If one is required to go to London at short notice, there is little doubt that the slight inconvenience of arriving at Luton and making one's way to London will not put anybody off using the £99 fare. Therefore, there should be little problem so far as load capacity is concerned. I would like the Minister to clarify if he is satisfied that Ryan Air, particularly at Dublin Airport, will receive full co-operation in the administration and operation of the service? I say this having in mind that when a previous application came from another airline problems arose with regard to the sharing of the booking computer and other airport services. I am inviting the Minister to put on the record that the difficulties that apparently arose in relation to that application will not now apply to Ryan Air and that there will be no difficulties encountered by that airline at Dublin Airport in relation to computer bookings or services.
I can assure the Senator on that matter. Ryan Air will be self-handling, as the technical terms goes. In other words, it will be handling its own procedures at Dublin Airport. This statement will obviously allay some of the fears being expressed by the Senator. At the Luton end, I imagine they will have a handler on a commercial basis and obviously will demand a proper and appropriate service from it. Naturally, I would be keen to see that all facilities would be provided in the ordinary commercial sense. One of the important facts for the airline is that it will be self-handling, as the technical term goes.