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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Mar 1986

Vol. 111 No. 16

Report of Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the EC—Perspectives for the CAP: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann takes note of Report No. 26 of the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities: Perspectives for the CAP (The Commission Green Paper).
—(Senator Daly.)

I was referring to the difficulties which are exacerbating the already difficult situation and one of these is the matter of concessionary imports into the Community of commodities which we are already producing in surplus. It is unfortunate that a number of the major countries in the community are adamant that this policy of concessionary imports be continued. It is unfortunate that when we have got huge surpluses of beef in particular the Community allows in extraordinarily large amounts of beef from third countries. I would hope that a realistic review of this situation would be taken by the member states. Some of these member states are obviously engaged in very considerable international trade and they want to retain that trade by allowing these concessionary imports.

That does little to benefit us in this country. It is actually causing us considerable harm and damage. Rather than take such drastic measures as are proposed by the Commission, the countries concerned would be adopting a communautaire attitude if they were to reduce the level of these imports, thereby allowing us to avoid the dreadful hardship that would be involved if these proposals were to be implemented. I referred specifically to the amount of beef being imported while we have huge surpluses and I might also refer to the huge amounts of cereal substitutes which are being imported into the Community while we have in store at the moment 15 million tonnes of grain. It seems totally illogical that our own farmers should be asked to take considerable drops in their income — many of them are in difficulty already — while these imports are being allowed. This is a major cause of concern to me.

Unfortunately, some of the member states are addressing the situation in a manner which is contrary to the rules of the Community. They are addressing the situation by allowing national aids. If rumours that we hear are correct the level of these national aids will not just continue but will increase, thereby circumventing the real hardship that their own farmers might suffer if the Commission's proposals are implemented. I would take a very serious view of these moves to bring in national aids which really is a back door method of financing their own farmers. Obviously, it is a method we cannot adopt. First of all it is breaking the rules of the Community and secondly, we do not have the finance to do it. It is an undesirable trend and, in effect, it is bringing about an undermining of the Common Agricultural Policy.

If the proposals were implemented as they are laid before us at present they would cost the agricultural economy of this country at least £150 million per annum, and this is money we can ill-afford to lose. So we must oppose vehemently what is being proposed, and I would hope that at the end of these talks, which will most likely go on for three months or more, we could emerge with a system which will not penalise us unjustly.

Finally, I would repeat that I agree with the joint committee that such necessary changes as are being proposed must be within the context of maintaining the basic principles and effectiveness of the Common Agricultural Policy. This is essential for us and I will be doing all in my power to guarantee that it happens — in other words, to see that the Common Agricultural Policy is maintained in the fullest and broadest sense.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Before I call on Senator O'Toole, I would like to say to the Minister, in case I interrupted him and took him unawares, it was a matter of importance to take Senator Michael D. Higgins and I had arranged to do it at 11.45. But I could see by the flow that continued when the Minister came back in that it did not interrupt him at all.

I never object to being interrupted by a lady.

First of all, I sympathise with the plight of the Minister, Deputy Deasy, in his approach to the review of the Common Agricultural Policy and the detrimental and enormous effects it will have on this nation if the measures that are proposed are implemented. The Minister is only too well aware of these implications and I can assure him from this side of the House that he will have our full support in opposing these measures, as he said, vehemently. We are fully behind his approach to try to get for the Irish farming community the best deal possible under the Common Agricultural Policy.

Unfortunately, in this country, while we have an asset in producing natural foods through a natural process, we have to compete against powers which produce artificially in factories. That is the reason for our being in the plight which we are in today. The EC and their decisions, or the lack of them, are the basis of the problems we are discussing here today. We have been gearing ourselves towards beef, milk and grain production so as to get the maximum possible production within the country. The first indication from the EC was, that if we were to succeed at all, Ireland would do well agriculturally. We may have done well up to now but I can see the red light flickering over this Common Agricultural Policy report which is before us today and from the submissions of the Minister, who has a good grasp of what is involved in it. I sympathise with the Minister in the negotiations he will have to pursue in the months ahead in order to deal with the massive combines in the greater states. It has not been unknown in the past and it will not be unknown in the future that Great Britain and other bigger nations can easily contravene the EC directives whenever it is to the advantage of their own state or to bring about better facilities for their own farming community. I have no doubt that they will be looking at the revision of the CAP and how it will be suitable to their own respective nations. They will contravene any EC directive in order to give their own farmers the best benefits possible under the revision of the Common Agriculture Policy.

The three main areas are milk, beef and grain. To take milk, it is evident now that there will be no increase in milk this year. The 3 per cent that has been mentioned as a further cut in our super-levy has disastrous implications for the western farmers, as the Minister rightly said in his opening remarks here today. The national cessation scheme, which is being examined here at present, has an imbalance between the western and southern regions of our own nation. Through our agricultural advisory system we have been trying to encourage young and small farmers in the west to get into milk production. We have achieved that target and achieved high milk production in the western counties. If the cessation scheme mentioned in the CAP is to be introduced there will be problems in trying to bring about an equitable national cessation scheme that will be suitable to the smaller farmers and co-ops in the west as against the larger ones in the south, who are overproducing and who could reduce their input to the co-ops. That imbalance can be dealt with nationally. I hope that as a result of the negotiations taking place a suitable arrangement will be brought about to resolve this problem.

As most people are aware, Mr. Braks visited this country on a fact-finding mission to spell out the possible implications and the danger that might ensue as a result of the introduction of the CAP to this country. He is touring all the nations as a PRO as well as to give the nations full insight into the Common Agricultural Policy. It would be disastrous if the small young farmer who went into milk production had to get out again. The western region — and I know it better than most — is not suitable or adaptable to other production. On the east coast one can go into agricultural cereals or one can adapt to milk, grain or beef. The only things we can produce effectively in the west are our hill sheep, our milk and our store livestock trade. We may not be in a position to produce beef as yet because most people have not gone into their slatted units to produce beef over the winter. If they go into that type of production the problem of transportation of feeds to the west arises which gives a higher price in the production cost.

We must not distort the traditional way of farming that we have instructed our young farmers to get into as a result of any change that might happen through artificial means in Europe or through factory production. The whole kernel of this lies around the table in Europe. We have to fight against the greater nations. The vast amounts of imports allowed into the European Community brings about this problem. The farmers should be commended for producing to full capacity the requirements of the Community, which has around 400 million people. It is a great achievement, but I would not give them any credit for artificially producing it at the expense of the naturally produced products from countries like ours. That is the great problem we face today and one that future Governments and future Ministers will have to try to stand against. It is that artificial type production that is doing us harm because we have neither the facilities nor the resources to produce agricultural produce on a factory floor method.

With regard to grain, barley was a crop that was thriving and was suited to the eastern and southern regions. We were getting greater returns per acre with increased technology and better management. We now have a co-responsibility quality levy which, as the Minister has rightly said, does not suit this country. We have not got a sunny climate and some years we may not have barley of a very high quality. Last year was an exceptionally disastrous year, but normally we have a very high moisture content in our grain at harvest time as against other countries with sunnier climates. As the Minister has rightly said, it will no longer be profitable if this co-responsibility quality levy comes into effect. It will bring a drop of from 9 per cent to 12 per cent, as he has already indicated. In other countries, as the Minister well knows, it will be possible to introduce what is known as national aid, because they have the finance to do so and because only a portion of their countries comes under agriculture. The greater portion is industrialised. They have the finance to give national aid to take the farmers over the crisis period whereas we have not got the resources or the finances to do that.

That is another problem facing the Minister. The Minister for Finance will probably not be in a position to help him out in this regard. It will not be possible to have a national aid scheme with our financial constraints. Again we are not in a position to compete with our naturally grown barley or wheat. Therefore we are starting off at a disadvantage. The Minister will have to fight very positively round the table in Europe. I have no doubt that he has the ability and will do what he can. He will have our support in that regard.

Beef is something we produce very easily because of our climatic conditions. But again we are getting caught up in the fact that, if intervention goes, the 80,000 to 90,000 tonnes we are putting into intervention every year will have to be sold elsewhere. Eighty-five per cent of our beef is exported every year. The dangers are enormous for this trade. Intervention is only a stop gap at the best of times. If our markets were geared towards exporting monthly at a normal level we would not have the problem of intervention. But from time to time we have to use intervention when we overproduce and when prices fluctuate.

A deputation from the General Council of Committees of Agriculture met the Minister yesterday. I was pleased to hear that we have new meat plants coming into operation which will specialise in the processing of meat. Heretofore we tended to export all our beef in hindquarters and forequarters without any processing. I am pleased to hear that the new meat plants will keep a balance between the bigger monopolies and that they are going into more finalised and precision processing which is the requirement of the market both at home and abroad today. Advanced processing will, no doubt, give more employment and will give presentation of our products in a better light. We will be able to sell more of our beef in the supermarkets in Europe and at home. We are on the eve of the OBF declaration in April whereby we will have a brucellosis-free national herd announced shortly. We have taken decisions to eliminate the implantation of hormones so that we will have beef second to none on the markets. In future we will need all these qualities in our beef, lamb and pig meat, to ensure that we get the greatest possible results in the marketplace.

While the Common Agricultural Policy is spelling out danger, the bigger artificial producers will pursue the policies they have pursued which brought this about. The EC will allow this to happen and we will have a problem on our hands for many years ahead. It is important that we have a disease-free herd and that we have the highest quality of meat on the market without any hormones or implants injected into it. I say to the Minister in passing, in connection with the full accreditation of our national herd for TB, I am disappointed that full acceleration of that scheme is not in operation this year. It is my information, as a result of negotiations with the IVA and other veterinary people, that the amount of moneys — the Minister can correct me when replying if I am wrong — in the field of activity for TB eradication this year is only in the region of approximatley £5 million. While there is £24 million allocated by the Department, with administration costs of the DVO offices and the personnel involved in the administration of the scheme and with a pilot scheme in the west Cork area and some midland counties, very little of that £5 million will be spent in the counties with a very low incidence of TB. When we are so close to having full accreditation of our national herd we should move on as fast as possible to achieve a national disease-free herd. We should press on regardless of the finances. There may be problems in getting finance in order to bring about accelerated testing. It was indicated in Building on Reality that this would be done. It is not being done to the same extent that I would wish it to be done. If we could achieve a disease-free herd, the abolition of the use of hormones and the processing and presentation to have the commodity right for the market, then there is no other country which could produce beef of such good quality as Irish beef.

As an exporter to Britain in the past, I know that they used our Irish stores as Scotch beef, sold it on the British market and labelled it as Scotch beef. When we can identify our product clearly as Irish beef we will not be able to produce sufficient amounts for the consumers within the Community, apart from the Eastern bloc countries. The day must come — as soon as we can bring it about — when our beef will be identified and stamped in every supermarket. We produce the finest beef, lamb and pigmeats because we produce them from natural sources. I am concerned about the implications of the Common Agricultural Policy. I regret that the other member states will probably at the end of the day accept most of the provisions in the Common Agricultural Policy. It will be more suitable to them because of their artificial production processing. We have been for years endeavouring to bring ourselves to this high production with the modern facilities we have installed. It is not easy because our agricultural country is small. It has varied soils and varied regions. The people concentrate on a product that has served them well down the years and we should not allow any EC intervention to change that system.

With the help of the Minister, his Department and the other Ministers of State we will give our full support in protesting as bitterly as we can at the implications of the provisions of the CAP. I believe if we stand together firmly on this we will have the support of the Irish farmers behind us. I know that the Minister will go through a tough time. He will get plenty of criticism and plenty of lashing from different agricultural organisations throughout the country. It behoves him to make the best deal possible for the Irish people. It does not matter who gets hurt in bringing that about. He must firmly fight for that because our only hope is to survive on the natural production structures that we have built up over the years. I have no doubt that the Minister will do that in the weeks and months that lie ahead.

Firstly, I wish to compliment the joint committee for such an excellent and comprehensive report on this entire subject of the Common Agricultural Policy. Indeed, it can be noted quite positively that we are at a very important crossroads with regard to the whole future of the Common Agricultural Policy. Major references have been made by the Minister with regard to the areas that are very positively in question at present. It is a very serious matter that, as outlined by the Minister, in the major areas of agriculture production such as beef, milk and cereals, it is not clear what position we are going to enjoy in these areas in the future. Sheep is the only major area of agricultural production, particularly field enterprise agriculture, which has better possibilities than the others at present.

The Minister clearly stated that, as far as the beef area was concerned, the Commission were proposing a progressive curtailment of intervention so that eventually it would only be used in exceptional circumstances at the discretion of the Commission. I believe that that kind of development is extremely serious. It would have an effect on the Irish economy more serious than any of us can easily or readily comprehend. We have the largest exportable surplus and the lowest prices for beef in the Community. The combination of these two factors leads us to be very concerned with regard to the whole future of beef. Reference was made to concessionary imports of beef, and indeed other products as well, into the Community at a time when there is a surplus of these commodities in the Community. There has to be a great deal more positive negotiations, supported by whatever muscle is required to make sure that concessionary imports do not continue on the scale that exists at present. We have vast quantities of beef and milk products coming into the Community at a time when we already have a surplus.

The Minister mentioned the very serious situation that confronts the dairying sector and the whole milk supply area. That is the proposal to introduce a milk cessation scheme from Europe. This, of course, in the first instance would be a voluntary scheme. It has been specified quite clearly in various documentation from the EC that, should that voluntary scheme not yield a result in the first instance, it would lead then to a scheme that was no longer voluntary. This would have disastrous effects. We would effectively lose 3 per cent of our production or 37 million gallons of milk. That would be the full rigour of an EC milk cessation scheme. That is an unthinkable situation when we realise the very tough battle fought by the Minister for Agriculture and others in achieving the magnificent result of getting a concession of 4.6 per cent in the 1983 negotiations, coupled with — and I stress this — the fact that 1983 was used as a base year. This gave us 20 per cent of a differential with regard to moving forward or staying put since all the other countries in the EC had to take 1981 as a base year.

It is vital — and I would like to re-echo the sentiments expressed already — that we leave no stone unturned to put into effect an Irish milk cessation scheme which would attract milk supplies that otherwise would be attracted to the European cessation scheme. Being attracted in that direction they are tied up for good and taken off the production availability line for Irish milk producers. Any of us involved in this whole area knows that there are massive difficulties involved between co-operative processing societies and milk units generally. I firmly believe that we must in the time ahead pursue vigorously the establishment of an Irish scheme which, basically, would be one of redistribution of milk supplies within the country rather than a cessation scheme per se. It is vital that we do this. It is vital also that we bring that kind of scheme on stream before the European cessation scheme comes into effect. We are led to believe that the European cessation scheme will come into effect some time in the near future. April was mentioned, but personally I believe that the EC cessation scheme will not come on stream at present. Perhaps it might take a while longer. It is inappropriate to start guessing as to what time it might or might not come on stream.

With regard to cereals, the other major section to which I have already referred and which has been referred to by the Minister, the Commission is proposing a co-responsibility levy on producers, delayed access to intervention and a much tighter quality criteria for cereals to be eligible for intervention. The combined effects of these various measures would prove nothing but disastrous to the Irish agricultural scene. We have to be alive to it and cannot afford for one moment to take it less than very seriously. The Commission at present are clearly and positively setting about to achieve some major objectives. These major objectives directly and indirectly have major consequences for us. The targets are to have budgetary constraint, to reduce the area of surpluses in the commodity production areas and to introduce a price mechanism that would be either frozen or at a reduced level. We cannot afford to overlook these objectives or take them too lightly.

I would be the first to acknowledge that the Common Agricultural Policy and its application in this country has done a great deal to resolve the development issues in Irish farming. This is a view that the joint committee in their report support. Since there is a review of the Common Agricultural Policy, the best approach that we can adopt is to get in and make the strongest impact on it. The joint committee have produced a document which is very comprehensive and covers various vital aspects. I would recommend it to those who have not had an opportunity to go through it.

The joint committee had the benefit of written and oral submissions from the Irish Co-operative Organisation Society, which is the central organisation of co-ops, the Irish Farmers Association, ICMSA, An Foras Talúntais, ACOT, the Department of Agriculture and Macra na Feirme. We are indebted to these various bodies and agencies for submitting very comprehensive and detailed points of view which are incorporated in the document. All of us should accord our thanks to them and I, as a member of the joint committee, would like to place on record my appreciation to these various bodies for the massive input they made to making this report possible and making it an excellent and outstanding report.

There is one very important point which I feel very strongly about and have raised in this House previously and which has not been dealt with either in the Green Paper, which is part of the report, or in the multiplicity of other documentation. Ireland which has a very underdeveloped economy and which is an island on the periphery of Europe must get special concessions if it is to survive in an EC economic context. That must be a very basic and positive line of approach on our part in any negotiations we have with our European friends at any time. Frankly, we have little chance of surviving in an open economy, in the context of competing on the same basis as the other EC countries such as Germany, Holland, Denmark, France and the United Kingdom. We have some other poor relations in the EC we could compete with but there is no joy in that. The Commissioner, Mr. Sutherland, during the week laid great stress at a meeting he attended in Louvain, which I am sure Members read about, on the need for levelling off the position between the poorer states, the states that are not so poor and the states that are well off.

Within the EC we have a great risk and danger of finishing up with a two or three tier situation where we could have an inner sanctum made up of the élite, an outer wing made up of those less élite, to use the expression, and the poorer relations on the outside. That would be disastrous for the EC and would spell its finish in all its aspects. That is not to say that we must not be responsible and reasonable. We must strive, as Commissioner Sutherland stated, to make certain that there is equity of distribution and opportunity having regard to the economic circumstances and the various other factors that are in existence in the different economies that make up the EC. Whether we like it or not, in recent times the enlargement of the EC to 12 has brought greater economic strain and burden on the Community. We know that if the measures which are being proposed, first, in the Green Paper and then being taken further in other comments and statements by various persons, were to become realities, we would unfortunately be faced with massive reductions of 9, 10 or 11 per cent. Any of those percentage reductions or price freezes coupled with quota situations would be something we could not sustain.

The Green Paper is worthy of reference. It is the basis on which the report of the joint committee was made. This Commission document began to evolve shortly after their taking office in January 1985. The Commission decided to initiate a general discussion on the perspectives of the Common Agricultural Policy and presented their Green Paper which they see as setting the framework for a dialogue between the Community institutions and the professional organisations. We must realise that the CAP has been in existence for 23 years and is viewed in recent times by many, including the joint committee in its report, as a cornerstone of the European situation. I would go further and say it is the cornerstone of the integration process which has not yet begun to take place. In July 1985 the Commission produced their Green Paper the main aim of which, along with the Commission's various subsequent detailed proposals in relation to the commodities I have outlined, namely, milk, beef and cereals, is to reduce the imbalance between supply and demand. Intervention should return to its rightful role as "a safety net" and should not be permanently in position as a market outlet. On that I would agree. Intervention was always intended as a place to put surpluses and was never intended as a marketing place. It became a marketing place but that is something that one could not make a case on.

The Commission have advocated a policy on restrictive prices closely linked with world market prices. The Commission are also conceding that in certain areas this policy would need to be supplemented by income aids. I want to stress that these income aids are not national aids but income aids in the context of the EC. This policy has increased the fears of many that the real nationalisation of the CAP through a proliferation of national aids must be avoided. My clear perception of this would be that — I have read various comments from various persons on it — we are talking about EC aids. But, nevertheless, we must be mindful of the dangers of the reintroduction of national aids, which would be disastrous for us.

The continued central role of the prices system must be maintained and must not yield to income support which would make the CAP more costly to operate. The joint committee in their report on the Green Paper stress very strongly the need for the preservation of the family farm and for ensuring a decent standard of living for its members. The Commission has also expressed its desire, as reflected in the document, to maintain the importance of the family farm. There are many medium and small sized family farms that have invested a good deal of money in their enterprises in the expectation of continuing support from the Community. These farmers have nowhere to turn if prices are severely curtailed. There are few, if any, alternative enterprises available.

I want to state that, in my opinion, and while Senator O'Toole spoke about the alternatives available to farmers in certain parts of the country there is no doubt that for most farmers there are no alternative lines of production at this stage. Thus, it is something we would want to be very clear on. The milk scene, if one likes to call it that, is a closed shop. The position with regard to cereals is not promising, to say the least, and the position with regard to beef leaves much to be desired. We have the remaining feed enterprise of sheep which would not, in a national context, take up the slack. We do not have these alternatives. There is no point in our deluding ourselves.

I have already referred to the position of this country in relation to milk, in a unilateral sense, and the super-levy negotiations when the special position of dairying to the economy was recognised by the Council. It is a very important precedent to which we must attach strong and firm argument because coupled with that derogation we got an assurance that areas of natural advantage would not be restricted in their pursuit of greater production. Particularly for all grass produced products, we have an irrefutable case for exemption or derogation. The same may not apply to tillage, be it cereals or beet, or farmyard enterprises generally.

The guarantees which we got at that time are now positively and clearly under threat. I have already referred to the suggestion of cutting milk production by 3 per cent. In 1983 we were given a guaranteed quota for five years. The present proposal is contrary to those decisions and a serious blow to the Irish dairy industry. In the last report from this joint committee there was a call for a derogation for Ireland from this proposal. That derogation should be called for again and again. As far as the cereal side is concerned the principal elements of the Commission's proposals concern price restraint, a co-responsibility levy, intervention, quality standards and access to intervention. There is a general acceptance that some form of co-responsibility levy will be introduced and Ireland's approach is that the levy should not militate against our medium sized specialist grain producers. In addition, the Commission's thinking on intervention quality standards would militate against production of feed grains which account for the bulk of Irish grain production. Ireland has expressed concern at such developments at Commission and Council level. The European Parliament recently rejected their agricultural committee's report. The matter in debate will continue with the price packages for 1986 and 1987.

At present Irish farmers are especially concerned with the proposals with regard to the reform of the beef market regime because beef exports, in the light of that trade generally, have always been a centrally important barometer to our economy. Beef exports, as everybody knows, represent a very formidable percentage of our agricultural exports and indeed of our total exports. The beef market is now overhung with 750,000 tonnes of beef in intervention stores. It is pointed out that the intervention buying system, which started off as a market safety net, has now become an outlet for beef selling generally. I already made reference to that and it must be corrected as intervention is a place for surpluses that cannot be sold in the market-place. More vigorous marketing right through the Community is required and from the Community to other countries.

A point that has not been referred to very often is that this system takes high value fresh beef and turns it into low value product by freezing and storing it. It must be sold cheaply to a third country. Thus, we take in the first instance a prime product, put it through the intervention process and come out with a much reduced quality product. In this country we have also seen the production pattern being distorted because the intervention price is the same all the year round. In a country where it is regarded as the most important outlet there is encouragement for cheap production of cattle off grass and discouragement of winter feeding. This is extremely important where the seasonality aspect of it is getting shoved aside in spite of the advocacy of it from time to time. It means in practice that there is no continuity of supply. Irish exporters are unable to build up the kind of market in other member states which should pay more than the minimum on which the intervention price is based.

The Commission at present is emphasising that intervention buying should again be used as a safety net and should not be permanently in position as an outlet. It has been proposed by the Commission that this will lead to a better balance in the market and appreciably improve the competitiveness of beef in relation to other types of meat. There will be a two year transitional stage ending 13 November 1987. During that period only a few classes of forequarters and hindquarters will be eligible for intervention after which it will cease to be part of the day-to-day management system and only be used in an emergency situation. As a nation and exporter of beef, this has very serious ramifications and implications for us. Obviously, the reaction from people in the trade and from those who know the whole beef business has not been favourable to that kind of proposal.

Farmers over the last ten years have become very accustomed to the intervention system. It must be said that in recent times the value of intervention has been considerably and seriously eroded. For instance, in 1985 we had intervention applying for only a very limited period and only to certain categories of animals. On that point, it is vital that intervention should apply, while it is there, to female beef as well as to steer beef, because there are many problems with regard to its disposal from time to time. We also have the whole area of aids to private storage. These are, of course, vital. They have proved vital for the last few years. We were able to export cattle to Libya, or any other third country, because the MCAs made it possible for the Libyans to buy beef at a price above which they could not otherwise have afforded to import it. That is the reality of the situation. One could argue that one is providing these people with cheap beef. If we did not have those MCAs in existence, beef would not be bought by the Libyans. That is the long and the short of it. Meat processing plants are strongly opposed to the moves which are envisaged with regard to intervention and the aids to private storage because many of these have erected boning plants on the security of the boning allowance for intervention beef. Their cold stores are also used for this beef.

In the 23 years of its existence the Common Agricultural Policy has undergone enormous change. The most obvious manifestation of this is the development of the application of farm technology which has led to a substitution of capital for labour with a consequent significant decline in agricultural employment. The prospect for the future is an acceleration in the application of new technology with an extention of the problems that now beset European agriculture. In other words, this is going to gather greater momentum as time proceeds. Structural surpluses of many farm products are likely to keep on growing.

The joint committee in their report on the CAP highlighted three areas where it has failed. These are very worthy of mention. These are three areas where the CAP has failed to resolve key issues in Irish farming, and they are: the vast amount of under-utilised and inefficiently farmed land in this country; the absolute rigidity of our land tenure system and the distorted age structure of our farming population; and the extreme variability in economic performance of farm income among the different categories of farmers in Ireland as compared with farmers in other parts of the Community.

The Community's external policies are vital to the operation of the Common Agricultural Policy and any significant change in those policies should not be to the detriment of the family farm. We must at all times keep the family farm in our minds. A review of the import of cheap foodstuffs with a view to their reduction is necessary, because they have disrupted the Common Agricultural Policy to the detriment of the farm family. In trade policy Community preference must be respected.

The three aims of the Common Agricultural Policy must be maintained. They are: unity of market, Community preference and financial solidarity. The Common Agricultural Policy has made some very significant achievements. Agricultural production has substantially increased, far more than it would have at the level of separate national economies. Based on gross value added at market prices, the volume of agricultural output has risen on average by between 1.5 per cent and 2 per cent annually over the past 20 years. Security of supply has been attained for the Community and it now has no difficulty as regards the availability of foodstuffs for its people. That is a point which is very often overlooked. The absolute guarantee of food for the people in the Community is an extremely important point. The Common Agricultural Policy now covers more than 90 per cent of Europe's agricultural produce. EC exports of food and agricultural produce have greatly increased and are contributing to the overall balance of EC trade.

There are a number of other points I want to cover very briefly, one of which is very relevant. In summary, it gives a very good idea of the way people are thinking. It is a statement made by Mr. Andriessen on 31 January 1986 to the Royal Dutch Farmers' and Horticulturalists' Federation at Arnhem. This is a summary of the points he made on the implementation of the Green Paper. I quote:

By means of its "Green Paper", the Commission stimulated a general discussion on the reform of the CAP. The aim is to define a coordinated group of measures, in order to provide new perspectives for the policy.

It became clear during the consultations that all parties agree that the open-ended guarantees cannot go on. But it is also felt that neither price reductions, even offset by direct income aids, or quotas are feasible in practice.

On the other hand, there was support for an approach involving a restrictive policy with regard to prices and for the principle of some degree of farmers' co-responsibility for the financing of stock disposal schemes and the re-organisation of the market.

For there is very little margin left for increases in prices, what is needed in this connection is a restrictive policy, combined with more emphasis on quality and more flexible implementation of the intervention mechanism.

The development of alternative products must be encouraged, but policy on structures should also be strengthened.

A co-responsibility levy in respect of quantities of cereals sold must be introduced. A method of calculation based on acreages, an alternative advocated by some members of the farming community, has manifest disadvantages:—it could well form an incentive to more intensive farming; —it would favour poorer qualities having higher yields; —it could not be confined to grain production but would also have to cover many other crops; —it would necessitate restrictive action on cereals and on substitutes.

Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

Just before lunch I was quoting from a speech by Mr. Andriessen at the general meeting of the Royal Dutch Farmers' and Horticulturalists Federation on 31 January 1986 at Arnhem. I would like to continue by quoting some further comments from that report. It states:

The Farm Bill recently tabled in the United States will force down world food prices, including prices for cereals. This will almost certainly mean higher export refunds, if the Community is not to lose market share. Extra funds will be needed for this, especially in view of the performance of the dollar.

Another factor liable to jeopardise the principle of budgetary discipline is the scale of existing surpluses. The problem involves the collective responsibility of the member states. A special long-term financing policy is needed to cope with this phenomenon.

Despite the introduction of a Community milk quota scheme, the authorities had to buy in 450,000 tonnes of butter in 1985 — equivalent to 10 million of tonnes of milk; the amount exceeds two-thirds of annual milk production in the Netherlands. This is clear evidence that the reference quantity for the Community as a whole was set at the time at too high a point.

Therefore, the Commission has recently proposed a scheme for buying back individual quotas, failing which an across-the-board reduction for all the Community in the reference quantity would be inevitable.

The situation is further complicated by the real danger of an increase in production, notably of milk, in the leading countries competing with the Community.

A final point which merits special emphasis concerns developments with regard to bio-technology. Science could well boost production, but progress in this area could also provide fresh outlets.

From that brief summary in Mr. Andriessen's speech it is very clear what definite intentions there are with regard to the Common Agricultural Policy. We would be very remiss if we did not fully acknowledge that there is a very definite problem confronting us at this stage. Naturally, it was encouraging to hear the comments of the Minister in his address to this House this morning when he talked about his determined approach to this whole matter of a reformed CAP. I believe that it is something about which no effort should be spared, because if the CAP is reformed in a manner that does not take cognisance of our special situation we will be in a very serious position, not alone economically but also socially, since inherent in many of the present policies, put forward in the Green Paper, by various people at Commission level is the likelihood of a position whereby the population involved in farming will drop drastically in this country in years to come. Therefore, not alone has this economic implications, but it certainly has major social implications also. At a time when we have a major unemployment problem at home, coupled unfortunately with an equally major unemployment problem within Europe, it is not wise, in my view, to have any further erosion of the population engaged on the land.

I believe that there are vast possibilities for Irish agriculture to develop further. It is regrettable that the brakes have been applied when our agriculture was moving forward. It was for many years in a very stagnant stage, but in the last ten or 12 years there has been a very significant movement forward and great progress has been made. Unfortunately, when the super-levy situation arose in 1983 and when other signal signs followed, this created, among the farming sector a great lack of confidence. People in farming now recognise that most of the major decisions concerning the farming industry and the whole agribusiness sector are not taken in Dublin but are taken in Brussels, Strasbourg or some other European centre. We have an input into such decisions, but we are not masters of our own destiny in the way that we were before membership of the EC.

It would be no harm to lay stress again on the fact that we joined the EC in 1972 with the massive approval of the people of this country. More than 80 per cent of those who participated in the referendum at that time voted in favour of our becoming a member of the EC. I am quite satisfied that that was in the knowledge that we had unlimited potential and great capacity for agriculture and that agriculture could not only contribute to the welfare and progress of those involved in it itself but could also contribute to the other sectors of our community in the industrial scene. It was recognised at that time that our industrial sector would have a major difficulty in surviving against the competition which existed in Europe. Unfortunately, that kind of position envisaged with regard to industry did take place. Regrettably, the kind of expectation that we all had for agriculture, unlimited potential and being allowed to develop our capacity to its fullest, changed. In other words we find 12 or 13 years later that we have lost heavily on the industrial side and we are on the verge of losing heavily on the side that offers prospects of substantial benefits.

I do not think that it could be overstated that we must not in any way apologise to our fellow Europeans for stating categorically that this little island of ours needs special attention and that the special measures sought must be granted. We are members of the European Economic Community. It is not solely for economic reasons that the EC, prior to our joining, wished to have members of the EC. There was also a very major political dimension and that political dimension remains. We must go to the very brink to make certain that we get the best deal possible from the EC. I am conscious of one important fact, that if the Common Agricultural Policy is dismantled — and there is a danger that such could happen — we could have a reversal to the whole renationalisation of aids to agriculture. Coupled with that, we could very easily find that the entire EC situation could become obsolete. That would be a very undesirable position.

There are many valuable views of the Joint Committee who drew up this report which have been referred to and I do not propose to go into them. There are a few items which are worthy of mention. The actual amount of money which is devoted within the EC to the farm budget as against the total budget is comparatively small. That is a fact which is sometimes overlooked. Agriculture is not taking this massive amount of money.

I want to refer to some conclusions which have been made by the joint committee which drew up this report. The committee in its concluding remarks states:

....in acknowledging the opportunity provided by the Green Paper to subject the performance of the CAP to detailed analysis asserts a coherent and viable policy for agriculture is indispensible to the economic, social and political stability of Europe.

This is particularly relevant to the Irish situation. To continue:

The Committee sees the CAP as the cornerstone of the European integration and must be equipped with effective policy instruments to enable it to achieve equality between the different regions of the community. It is concerned at the extent to which regional disparities have widened and calls for an integrated approach to regional development as a matter of urgency. There must be more effective co-ordination of the CAP, the regional and social policies.

The basic fabric of the CAP is essentially sound. It has made a unique contribution to the economic and social wellbeing of Europe. The Joint Committee is satisfied that the CAP can be revised and re-equipped with policy instruments, to ensure its survival in the turbulent conditions obtaining in the world economy at present without vitiating its basic underlying principles. National aids must not be allowed to impair the operation of the CAP as the vehicle for agricultural development.

The real cost of the CAP expenditure is not excessive and is not out of proportion with similar expenditure in non-community countries. The point, unfortunately, has not been conveyed in a convincing manner to consumers.

The Joint Committee accepts that the Community's resources must be allocated in the most effective manner but contends that any revision of the CAP must only result from measures designed to ensure its survival as the main instrument of agricultural development in Europe.

The Joint Committee welcomes the concern expressed in the Green Paper for the protection of the environment. The Community has now adopted well formulated programmes for environmental conservation. The Joint Committee sees no reason why the interests of agricultural development and the environment should be in conflict. Sensibly managed, they both can be valuable sources of job creation.

The Joint Committee hopes to study this topic later. Finally it says:

The review of the CAP has an economic and social orientation. These two concepts must be given expression through the political process. For that reason especially the Joint Committee hopes that an early debate will take place in the Dáil and Seanad where the elected representatives of the farming community and the consumer can record their views.

The Joint Committee in a document of 77 pages has given us an excellent report of which we must take cognisance. There is no point in our thinking that there is not a problem. There is a very real problem. There is little point in people talking about the alternatives to beef production, mill production or any other form of farming at present. Unfortunately, these alternatives are not there. I would say earnestly to the Government, the Minister and to the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, that it is incumbent upon us to make sure that the whole scene in agriculture survives. We are at a survival position at present. Margins in farming are very narrow. There is absolutely no room for any question of price reductions. There is no room for a cutback in production. We need greater efficiency and greater output.

I am satisfied that the Minister for Agriculture at his level and the Taoiseach at his level, in meeting Ministers and heads of State together with the various Ministers in their respective roles, will ensure that this country receives in the future the sort of special treatment we not alone deserve but need and that it will be in the interest of the Community to give us. In 1972 the level of grant aid which we received on becoming members was significantly different to that enjoyed by Spain and Portugal in recent times. Spain and Portugal enjoyed grant aid to the level of 70 per cent or thereabouts. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, in our case it was something of the order of 30 per cent. This is the kind of situation that exists. While one might say it is not historical, I do not believe it is irrelevant in negotiations and discussions. We must ensure that we do not allow any erosion of our agricultural industry, which is the basis of our whole economy.

In any discussion on the Common Agricultural Policy the first questions we must examine is why it was established, what were its main aims and how well it has succeeded in achieving its objectives. Only in that context can we go on to examine the problems that have arisen. Having examined the problems that have arisen, we can then try to identify the causes of these problems and assess whether or not the causes can be eliminated.

If we look at the developments which have led to the issue of the Green Paper for the Common Agricultural Policy we can then ask ourselves how valid are the explanations that are contained in the Green Paper of the problems facing CAP, and how realistic are the policy options which are put forward in the Green Paper. Most important of all, we must try to assess the implications of those options for Ireland, the Irish economy generally, for Irish farmers and, particularly, for the future of traditional family farming in Ireland.

The objectives of the Common Agricultural Policy are set out in article 39 of the Treaty. The objectives were five in number — first, of all, to increase agricultural productivity; secondly, to ensure a fair standard of living for the farming community; thirdly, to stabilise markets; fourthly, to guarantee supply; and fifthly and finally, to ensure the delivery of supplies to consumers at reasonable prices. It was intended that the Common Agricultural Policy would take account of the social structure of agriculture and the natural disparity between the various agricultural regions in the member states. It would also take account of the need to effect adjustments gradually. In all member states agriculture constitutes a sector closely linked with the economy as a whole. It was decided that those objectives could best be achieved by operating on the basis of the three principles which have been outlined already by Senator Hourigan — a single market, community preference and financial solidarity.

The Common Agricultural Policy accepted that agriculture has both an economic and a social dimension and that efforts made to raise productivity should involve a price policy which would avoid overproduction but at the same time allow farmers to have a reasonable standard of living. It was also agreed that there should be a policy of aid to disadvantaged regions or farms. Of course, it was agreed that aids contrary to the spirit of the Treaty should be eliminated. The importance of the family structure of European farming was recognised. It was the unanimous wish of those involved in drafting the Common Agricultural Policy that every effort should be made to raise the economic and competitive capacity of the family farm unit. It was recognised and understood also that the creation of a Common Agricultural Policy would have a far wider significance than the wellbeing of those who live on the land, because any such policy has significant implications for the whole social, economic and political stability of the population of the EC. These objectives and the principles on which they were founded are as relevant, valid and vital today as they were when the Common Agricultural Policy came into existence.

How well has the Common Agricultural Policy succeeded to date? No one can deny that it has had some significant results to its credit. Agricultural production in the EC has substantially increased. Senator Hourigan referred to the increase in agricultural output generally. He stated that output had increased on average by between 1.5 per cent and 2 per cent annually over the past 20 years. There has been a corresponding growth in the related food industry. This growth has generated considerable employment. Security of supply has been attained for most products. In contrast to many parts of the globe, the EC is relatively self-sufficient as far as foodstuffs for its people are concerned.

Europe's international trade has benefited from the Common Agricultural Policy. Exports of food products have more than doubled since 1972. I have already mentioned the direct impact on employment which has resulted from the success of the Common Agricultural Policy. Price stability has been achieved to a great degree. The Common Agricultural Policy has helped to curb inflation because the prices received by farmers in general have risen considerably more slowly than prices in other sectors. The standard of living of farmers has risen. Nevertheless, there are still major disparities in farm income both between the member states and within the member states. In some cases, as has been pointed out, these disparities have tended to increase. However, it must be admitted that the Common Agricultural Policy has been an economic and a political success.

Socially, also, the CAP has been a success in so far as it has preserved family farming in the community even though the numbers engaged in agriculture have fallen considerably over the past 20 years. In spite of its success, the CAP has taken on many characteristics that were not envisaged by its originators. It has not succeeded in preventing overproduction. Its policy of aid to disadvantaged areas has been less than adequate. There has been the emergence of a minority of factory farmers in the community. This development has tended to overshadow the original aim of the CAP, which was the preservation of the Community's traditional family farmers. Factory farmers especially have contributed to the overproduction problems. The two great problems that have arisen in the Community are ever-increasing surpluses and the cost of the CAP, and both are to some extent interrelated. Both problems are growing. The CAP is being subjected to increasing criticism and attack and the demand for revision of the policy is now greater than at any time in the Community's history.

Over the years a number of changes have been made to try to cope with surplus production problems. The intervention system for beef has been considerably curtailed. Real prices, prices related to inflation, have been reduced every year since 1978. Co-responsibility levies on milk production were introduced in 1979. In 1984 the milk super-levy was brought in. Despite these changes, production of most products has continued to expand and surpluses have now built up which are costing the Community millions of pounds to dispose of. In 1984 the EC budget became exhausted. The Commission was forced to ask member states to extend their contributions. As we all know, this proposal was opposed by Britain and Germany on the grounds that too much was being spent on agricultural supports and too little on the social and regional policies.

It is easy to understand why these countries opposed the increased payments. Both countries get less out of the budget than they put in and are, in effect, contributing to the support of farmers in other countries. We must remember that in pre-EEC days Britain operated a cheap food policy by paying income supports to her own farmers and allowing free prices to operate on domestic markets. As a result, surpluses from all over the world were dumped at very low prices in Britain, giving very cheap food to the British people. Nowadays British consumers have to pay high prices for food when, at the same time, the Government have to pay heavy EC budgetary contributions to maintain these prices. Britain is, therefore, very hostile to the CAP. They only agreed to those latest budget increases provided spending on agriculture was curtailed. In those circumstances the EC Commission had no option but to seek a revision of the CAP which would satisfy Britain and Germany.

The proposals for reform have now been issued in the Green Paper perspectives for the CAP. Up to now the CAP has depended on the instrument of price supports. The Green Paper states that alternative instruments should now be developed. The Green Paper does not say that price supports should be withdrawn entirely. It does say that market prices should be given a greater role in guiding supply and demand.

According to the Commission, the sector most urgently in need of adjustment is that of cereals. Although the Green Paper does not say so, it is obvious that, if cereal prices are reduced, then most other prices will be affected. Prices of white meat, pig meats and poultry, which have little support, would be reduced automatically through increased production. Red meat would have to follow suit in order to compete on the market. Sooner or later milk prices would also be affected because of the large amount of grain used in milk production.

The Green Paper does not favour the extension of quotas. It points out the administrative difficulties that arise in so far as the policing of quotas is concerned. The Green Paper tries to sweeten the pill somewhat by making long statements about agriculture as a protector of the environment and the need to keep people on the land in the poorer regions and the better integration of agriculture in regional development. Towards this end it suggests giving direct income aids to the poorer farmers. However, when the proposed income aids are examined it is found that the amounts suggested are relatively small. We must strongly resist the Green Paper proposals. The income aids proposed are not much greater than the current disadvantaged area payments. The price reductions would seriously affect family farm incomes. They might have some effect on the reduction of surpluses. But certainly their effect on smaller farmers and the family farm unit would be considerable. The smaller and, indeed, the more efficient middle sized farmers would suffer most if the price restraint suggested in the Green Paper were implemented, while the factory farmers to whom I have referred, who are creating all the problems, would probably suffer least.

There is also the danger that price reductions would create intense pressure throughout the Community for the renationalisation of agricultural supports. This, of course, could mean the end of both the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Market itself. If agriculture cannot be protected to some reasonable extent within the Community, there will be little desire to have free trade in non-agricultural products. The Green Paper mentions the avoidance of renationalisation as a priority. It does not seem to realise that price reductions of the magnitude envisaged are a sure recipe for the renationalisation of agricultural supports.

Quotas are not favoured or the extension of quotas do not seem to be favoured in the Green Paper. Part of the solution lies in some kind of a quota system for the products which are in surplus supply. The quotas for milk and sugar beet are seen to be working reasonably well and restrictions have been placed also on wine production. This was expected. The restrictions will prove reasonably effective. It would be more difficult to implement quotas in the case of cereals and beef.

Acreage limitations are favoured by some people. If acreage limitation could be imposed, it might help to alleviate the problem. I do not believe that the proposals contained in the Green Paper will solve the financial problems of the Community, though they will result in lower farm incomes. As a result of lower farm incomes, more people will leave farming, and, of course, this is going to aggravate the already serious unemployment situation.

I do not believe that the real causes of overproduction or surpluses have ever been tackled. I certainly do not believe they have been tackled realistically in this Green Paper. The problems have not been created by Irish farmers or, indeed, by family type farming anywhere in the Community. It is a recognised fact that 20 per cent of Europe's farmers produce 80 per cent of farm throughput. These 20 per cent employ intensive large scale farming methods. Of course, they use considerable quantities of cheap imported food stuffs.

Between 1977 and 1983 the largest increase in EC imports was in feedstuffs. Manioc imports rose by 160 per cent and cotton glutin feed imports from abroad rose by 230 per cent. These are the animal feeding stuffs, the cereal substitutes which are used by the factory type farmers to whom I have referred. Many of these cereal substitutes are imported without tariff. This makes them much cheaper than Community grown cereals. These feedstuff imports have grossly distorted the operations of the Common Agricultural Policy. They are the main cause of the problem of surpluses.

Feedstuffs imported from third countries is the equivalent of 10 per cent of the available agricultural area in the Community. It is important to identify areas of expenditure which are included in the published cost of the Common Agricultural Policy. A large percentage of the expenditure which is identified has nothing to do with Europe's traditional family farmers. Considerable expenditure arises from the importation of New Zealand butter and commitments that have been given in relation to the import of New Zealand butter. I have already mentioned the expenditure that arises in relation to the import of cereals and cereal substitutes.

Then, of course, certain countries have beef import concessions. The cost of these imports, as well as adding to budgetary problems, is also a contributory factor to the surplus problem. It is important that we in Ireland should participate in the current debate on the Common Agricultural Policy. We should support any revision of the policy that would alleviate current difficulties, provided the proposals are acceptable to Ireland, that they preserve the basic underlying principles of the Common Agricultural Policy and that they do not put at risk the family farm or lead to a further deduction in numbers employed on the land.

The report before the House clearly identifies the implications for Irish farming which are contained in many of the options outlined in the Green Paper. I should like to join with the previous speakers in complimenting the joint committee on this report.

Mention of any possible revision or amendment of the Common Agricultural Policy quite rightly sends a shudder down the spine of every Irish person, because if ever there was a central feature which determined our decision to join the European Economic Community, it was the obvious advantage that would accrue from our membership of the Common Markert, with particular reference to the Common Agricultural Policy. Like the other speakers, I sincerely welcome the joint committee's report and commend them on the manner in which they have carried out a very thorough analysis, first of all, of the benefits that have quite rightly accrued to us from the Common Agricultural Policy, the ongoing benefits which we enjoy today and the implications of any revision scaling down of the CAP which might in any way diminish the degree of aid, assistance, support or supplement to the Irish economy and the Irish agricultural sector.

As the report quite rightly says, the Common Agricultural Policy is the very cornerstone of the Community and has been such over the past 23 years. Any mitigation or dismantling of it as a major component within the Community would have grave implications for the long term survival of the Community. That is why I would like to join with the other speakers in congratulating the Minister on his very evident determination to resist at all costs any changes in the Common Agricultural Policy which might have adverse effects on the Irish economy.

Looking at the Minister's track record to date, particularly in relation to his role as Minister for Agriculture in the European negotiations, I believe there is no danger when the custody, welfare and future of Irish farmers is placed in the hands of the Minister. This was very evident during the negotiations in 1983 in relation to our derogation as regards milk quotas. We can never cease to marvel at the deal which was wrung from the European bureaucrats and the other Ministers for Agriculture and heads of State — there were heads of State involved in that period in relation to the special concessions given to Irish farmers. In the face of very trenchant resistance from European Ministers of Agriculture and their advisers, the Minister, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs succeeded in wringing from Europe a 4.6 derogation when all of the rest of Europe was being cut back to 1981 levels. That was a considerable achievement which has been underwritten on several occasions since by the Minister's steadfast stand in relation to agriculture and agricultural policy. It was a stand that was under-appreciated by a number of farming leaders and farming organisations and one which — as we see the pressure coming from Europe again — is seen in its proper perspective as being a considerable breakthrough.

The report is good, a solid report, and it analyses the most salient points in relation to the Common Agricultural Policy. It points out that there has been a considerable amount of progress in advance in production levels and that this production has been achieved as a result of technical progress and because of this we and an accelerated migration of people from the land. One notices from the report that it identifies a considerable deceleration since the mid-1970s and the outflow has diminished considerably. It is to be expected that this would happen, that there would be a low water mark which would call a halt to the outflow from the land. One of the central purposes and motivating influences of the Common Agricultural Policy is the retention of the social tissue of the rural region. If you ally to that the conservation of the natural environment and the landscape, we are all at one in relation to the achievement of the Common Agricultural Policy.

As has been said by Senator Mullooly, by the Minister and by speakers on both sides of the House, the surplus that exists has arisen not by virtue of the typical Irish farmer who is essentially a family type farming enterprise but by virtue of the massive factory producers who are part and parcel of the mainland of Europe. It is wrong that when penalties, quotas, restrictions and co-responsibility levies are being implemented they should be implemented across the board and people should be penalised who are family type farmers. If we are to achieve our central aim which is the retention of people on the land and the retention of the social fabric of rural Ireland, the only way it can be done is by protecting the existence of the small family farmers.

The report makes reference on page 22 to the need to have income support measures, etc., in order to ensure that that is achieved. Paragraph (c) at the bottom of page 22 says:

this system, which is regarded as a "last resort" aid scheme, would give aid to farmers whose income is less than a limit to be determined and where no alternative income and employment possibilities are available. The scheme could be limited to the present generation of farm-holders and thus self-eliminating.

Because of the social and agricultural fabric of the west of Ireland, which results from the poor quality of the land, income support is a feature and part and parcel of rural and economic life and they have to be maintained. I would urge that surplus production should be looked at anew because the degree of income support given by way of social welfare benefit does not help to take the plight or the living standards of western farmers other than little above subsistence level. This has become relevant since the introduction of factual assessment with regard to the small farmers' dole. It is conceded now at European level that the scheme will have to be looked at again with a view to elevating to a level of dignity the economic subsistence levels of farmers in the west. I do not accept that surpluses are a bad thing. They are an indication of the manner in which we have managed to master the gymnastics of production. When it gets to a stage when we are talking about cut-backs, and drastic cut-backs, and when we have on the one hand surpluses in one area with gross deficiencies in another, it is time to look again and to analyse the degree of success we are having in relation to our policies.

One of the dangers pointed out in the report is that of polarisation. If we keep going the way we are, there will be a heightening of the polarisation between the advantaged and the disadvantaged. That is why we should always aspire towards the great equality goal which is one of the main motivating factors and one of the founding aims of the Community. The report rightly analyses the various options. It looks at the option of price policy or quantitative restriction. It examines whether market prices should have a greater role in determining supply and demand. It looks at the options as regards diversification. It looks at alternative production. I should like to welcome the anticipatory note in the direction of aid for people to switch. I am not keen on the idea hinted at from the Commission that there be a time limit, because it is putting the gun to the head of people who are traditional farmers, moulded into set patterns and tends to bring in the image of the sledge hammer where some diplomacy might have the desired effect with a far greater element of compassion.

We have been asleep in regard to the potential of forestry. A lot of work has been done in this area. We offer very attractive grant aid. Any area of development which offers people for private investment up to 80 per cent or 85 per cent grant aid with back-up service, advice, etc. has a lot to commend it. What I use as my gauge, my barometer and my determinant whether or not a policy is succeeding is the acreage of land under forestry. While I do not see it as being the answer to all our over-production or over-capacity and while I do not say that good land should be in the short term devoted to forestry even though it is a passion in Germany and elsewhere, we should have a serious look at why the inducements offered to people to go into forestry are not taken up. The grants are there but the level of uptake is disappointing.

It has been proved that marginal land or very poor land, land which is manifestly unsuited for agricultural purposes, is lying fallow or lying idle, growing furze, rushes and moss and lichen and could be turned into the production of trees. We have to question and to answer to ourselves truthfully the reasons why this has not happened. It has been proved that the poorest in terms of possibility for agricultural production is land which is the greatest in terms of capacity to produce timber. This is particularly true with regard to two species, Norwegian larch pole and Sitka spruce. It has been proved that production levels from marginal land in County Leitrim are far higher than those of Norway, Sweden or on the mainland of Europe. We should look at the other possible avenues for the exploitation of this.

In view of the fact that we must acknowledge that we have not been spectacularly successful in relation to forestry development, we should seriously try to encourage the co-operative movement to get involved. The co-ops have won the respect and, indeed, the trust and confidence of the farmers. The co-ops have unwittingly assisted the over-production levels in relation to milk in particular. These are the people who are ideally suited to go out among the farmers, to adopt a crusading attitude in relation to forestry and to sell the gospel that forestry can be a very profitable and dignified way of utilising one's land while at the same time having the obvious consequential spin-off effect of reducing surpluses in areas where there is over-production.

There is need to overcome the psychological barrier or the mental block that people have. I would submit that it is difficult to expect farmers to commit their land to afforestation when there is no interim income guarantee. One cannot expect people to divest themselves of their land for forestry purposes if one is not in a position to spell out the A, B and C to that farmer as to where he can expect to get his income in the interim. The waiting period is relatively long. It is on average 35 years. There are the spin-off effects of thinnings after 15 years. But, as long as one is not in a position to guarantee income in the interim, it is very difficult to expect farmers to devote their lands to afforestation. That is why I would like to see a whole new appraisal of our agricultural set-up with special reference to the need to get across to farmers the profitability in the long term of forest production. But in the short term, the fact that we will be in a position to guarantee that for the day to day running of their household, the day to day management of their families, etc., and in order to allow them to keep body and soul together, we are prepared to offer them income aid and supplements.

It is the silly season again as regards speculation for licensing terms, whether or not we are going to review the terms for oil exploration. We are sitting on a goldmine here in this regard. We are sitting on an oilfield. We are sitting on a vast reservoir of possible wealth that is largely lying untapped. That area will have to be tackled with far greater vigour. The prognosis is good. At European level the prognosis is that from now at least until the end of the century there will be a considerable timber deficit in Europe. Again, we should look not just at coniferous forest development but at the possibility of producing natural woodland — ash, oak, sycamore — an area which is grossly neglected.

I would agree wholeheartedly with Senator O'Toole that the Minister will require all the encouragement and support that we can give him. I welcome his commitment to support. I welcome the open manner in which he has approached the Minister's task and the commitment he has given that the other side of the House will be as responsible and as supportive as possible in relation to the negotiations about to be undertaken by the Minister. Nobody envies the Minister his task. It is a far different proposition from negotiations which took place in the past. On the part of the major powers in Europe, particularly the people who are paying the piper, there is a tendency to tell smaller countries that they, the larger countries, are entitled to call the tune. As I said at the outset, I have no doubt whatever about the Minister's capacity to defend Ireland, Irish farmers and Irish agricultural interests. I would agree wholeheartedly with Senator O'Toole that we have a special role in agriculture and should try to exploit this role. We should try to exploit the capacity we have to produce good quality, pure uncontaminated beef in particular to the highest quality and the highest standards.

In conclusion, I would like to say that we welcome also the Minister's commitment that for his part he will do everything to ensure that the anomalies that are part of the European Community by way of importation of excess productions from other countries and the special arrangements that apply to areas that were previously colonies of what are now member states will be resisted at all costs and scaled down. Again, we wish the Minister well in his deliberations.

We all can without hesitation wish the Minister well because his job will be a tough one when it comes to safeguarding the interests of the Irish farmers as far as the Common Agricultural Policy is concerned. It is important when we look at this report that we should also look at the way that the balance has now changed as far as European farm production is concerned. With the coming into the Community of Spain, Portugal and Greece in recent years, the balance has now shifted towards the Mediteranean countries and Mediterranean countries will be needing more of the funds that are available to the Common Agricultural Policy.

We see also that the technological advances that have taken place as far as farming is concerned in the past five to ten years are putting further pressure on Irish agriculture. One wonders if the same rules and regulations are being applied right across the board as far as Europe is concerned and as regards the agricultural policy being followed by other member states. When one considers the amount of factory farming that has been developed on the European mainland in the past five or six years one wonders if the people responsible for agricultural policy in those countries saw the writing on the wall for much of the traditional agricultural produce a number of years ago. A comparison of the average yield per cow in Holland and in Ireland shows that Dutch farmers are producing at least 50 per cent more per cow than their counterparts are producing on the best dairy farm in Ireland. This result is not achieved by use of the means employed in Ireland but by a type of factory farming which has available to it cheap concentrates from third countries. There have been various discussions concerning the grain mountain within the Common Market. Could some means not be found whereby imports from outside the EC of corn glutin, tapioca and various other agricultural fillers and cereals could be controlled? At the moment these products are being dumped on mainland Europe, affecting the price of grain as far as Irish farmers are concerned and also our beef and milk production. Those cheap cereals are available to the mainland European farmers and mean that they are in a position to produce milk and beef at a much lower cost than would be the case for their Irish counterparts. In addition being based on mainland Europe, they have an advantage in transport costs and marketing.

The Common Agricultural Policy has undergone a continual change ever since we joined the Common Market. A number of changes that have taken place at various levels have been to the detriment of the Irish farmer. Indeed, some of the present proposals are totally at variance with what we would see as being the interest of the Irish farmers. In another part of this country there is New Zealand lamb being sold in the market and competing against the produce of this country. One begins to wonder if the concessions that are being given to the former colonies of member states should now be withdrawn in view of the detrimental effect that they are having on our agricultural production.

We also have problems with regard to price restriction. For quite a number of years the price increases were of such a nature as to give farmers the necessary increase in living standards without having to increase output to any great extent. I wonder if some better type of support system could be made available to our farmers. The suggestions which have been made that a certain amount of land should be taken out of production within the EC is, in my opinion, totally detrimental to the interests of this country.

The suggestion that land should be taken out by means of forestry or recreational facilities is totally wrong. The suggestions seem to be totally levelled at this country. Senator Higgins referred to forestry and the fact that there will be a shortage of timber within the EC until the end of the century. Any of the trees now being planted in this country will have no commercial value until well past the end of the century. At that stage one wonders will the market be as buoyant then as it seems to be at the moment. Consider the social problems that will be created in certain parts of this country as a result of private speculation in forestry. Is there not a much more beneficial way of using this land which may or may not be suitable for agricultural production.

The intervention systems as they have operated are not in the best interest of farmers. When you have to pay for storage for any commodity for quite a long period it reaches the stage where you are paying possibly more in storage costs than you would be paying had you sold the produce originally in the open market, outside the EC at world agricultural prices. The Minister should be pressing to see is some other type of refund system could be got with regard to milk, beef and grain. A system which would give an extra refund that would automatically be spent on storage could be of far more benefit to the farmers and to the economy. It would stop people speculating with regard to some of the products which are presently in intervention. When one sees the prices quoted for some of this intervention beef that is being sold, beef being sold from this country at as low as 20p per pound, it makes one think if it would not have been better if this produce had been sold within a short time of being put into cold storage even if there was to be an extra refund paid on it. In regard to the other choices which are available — the choice between the price paid for the product and the price with regard to increasing production — we must try to strike a balance. A policy which would give a reasonable return and would allow for a certain amount of expansion in the agricultural sector could be of greater benefit.

If it is the aim of the Community at the moment to take land out of production, we must consider the social consequences that will be derived from that. Many areas, if they lose even 5 per cent of their population, will become very isolated and very unsociable places in which to live. There is the amount of starvation that is in the world at the moment and there is a huge amount of food in storage within the Community. One wonders if there is any balance. The policy of the EC should be so flexible as to allow greater amounts of the food which is in storage to be made available to the poor of the Third World at reduced prices.

In the milk sector there are superlevies and various other problems which are causing farmers to stagnate and not to expand. Farmers should be allowed a certain amount of expansion per annum. If the extra production were to be paid for at a lower price than the base price — they will be paid on their average production up to 1984 or 1985 — at least there would be encouragement to improve the output and the yield of dairy herds.

More imagination with regard to the disposal and sale of dairy produce might be of great benefit as far as the consumer is concerned. A situation is being created with regard to agricultural produce, especially red meat and butter products, where consumer resistance will play a major role. We have seen the reaction. Recently statistics were issued to prove that consumption of butter has dropped drastically in the past five years. The medical evidence is for and against it. Some doctors will say that, used properly, dairy fats are not any more dangerous than any other fats that may be used.

I would hope that a restrictive prices policy would not be the type of policy that would be used to control production within the EC. Where will the industrial jobs be created to take up the workforce which will become unemployed if the policy as proposed in the Green Paper is implemented and personnel are taken out of the agricultural sector?

The proposal to divert land to other uses might be looked at. The proposal to take land out of agricultural production by means of forestry could be very dangerous for this country. What is the average percentage of land being planted in other member states per annum? Is there a policy being operated here by the EC which would take more land, or a higher percentage of land, out of production in Ireland than would be the case in any of the other member states? It is important that we do not allow ourselves to be enticed into taking land out of agricultural production which might be of benefit to this country in ten or 15 years' time.

There is a lot of talk with regard to substitute crops which could be used. Indeed, oil seed and other protein crops have been mentioned. Fruit growing, especially in the Mediterranean regions, has been referred to. In this country our main thrust and emphasis have always been on production of direct dairy products, beef, sheep meat and a certain amount of grain which is consumed mainly on the home market. At present the only item of livestock which seems to have a future within the Common Agricultural Policy is sheep meat. Farmers could examine the prospects of increasing the production of sheep meat.

It might be more beneficial to have higher refunds paid for the sale of beef as quickly as possible outside of the EC rather than the present system of intervention storage. A number of other schemes were tried, including an APS scheme, which was meant to be of benefit to the farmers, but the money from which was rarely recouped by the farmer. The money was absorbed in the prices that were accepted for the meat under the APS scheme. The big beneficiaries of the scheme were not the Irish farmers or any Irish company but the third countries who bought this meat. It seemed ridiculous to see Irish beef being sold to third countries at $200 to $300 a tonne less than the price being paid for Argentinian and South American beef. It makes us reflect on the way we are disposing of our surplus meat.

With regard to the control of the use of hormones as proposed by the EC, it is important that there should be a monitoring agency to make sure that the other member states behave themselves as well as we behave ourselves when it comes to implementing EC regulations.

The proposal of early retirement for farmers is a non-runner at the moment, especially in this country where if somebody is on a farm retirement pension they suffer the loss of social welfare benefits which are of greater benefit to them.

The Minister should consider the long term dangers of having any reduction in production levels or in the amount of land that is available in this country for agricultural production. We must see to it that we are always in a position either in the short term or long term, to be self-sufficient foodwise. At the moment we are more than self-sufficient, but if large tracts of land were to be taken out of production we could end up with serious problems in 15 or 20 years. The population of the world is expanding. The people will have to be fed. It would be ridiculous in this situation to cut back production.

As public representatives irrespective of who may be in Government, we should show our support for Ministers who have it rather rough when it comes to maintaining and defending our interests as far as the Common Agricultural Policy is concerned. Our farming organisations should explain to their counterparts and to other European organisations the problems of Irish agriculture, the fact that we are backward as far as agricultural production is concerned, the fact that our agricultural production has never had available to it the same advantages that our European partners have. Our German counterparts have money available to them at 4 per cent or 5 per cent whereas Irish farmers are paying 16 per cent or 17 per cent. Ten per cent is quite an amount of money when it comes to making up the difference between profit and loss, and I would urge that the Minister, in defending the Common Agricultural Policy would also fight to have cheap European money made available to Irish agriculture on a long-term basis. It is wrong that the ACC has European funds available to it at a low rate and yet are charging farmers a very high interest rate which is well beyond the normal handling charges for this type of fund.

The social implications of the proposals regarding the Common Agricultural Policy must be examined and also the consequences for farming. Due to the fact that we are mainly a rural country we have had a standard of life which is envied by many of our European partners. At the moment we see the number of people from mainland Europe who are willing to take up full-time residence here due to the standard of life here. The number is increasing on an annual basis. We see them coming to live in areas which are very remote and where Irish people would not live. They tell us that the reason they come here is that we have an environment which is reasonably clean and which is healthier than that of mainland Europe, and also that they feel we can give them a better future. They tell us that our food is much better and more natural than that which is being produced on the Continent. This is the type of market that we will have to pursue. We will have to push now for increased production of foodstuffs without any additives and as naturally as possible.

It is important that we as a body and as public representatives should express our fears that there would be any dissolution of the Common Agricultural Policy. Any Minister leaving this country will have the full support of everybody in any fight to maintain the Common Agricultural Policy and for all the derogations possible and all the subsidies possible for this country.

I, like the other Members, would like to take this opportunity of wishing the Minister well. His is a very onerous task and important task for this country. He needs all our wishes and support. I listened to his speech this morning and there was nothing in it to which I could take exception. It had logic; it was enthusiastic; and there was nothing in it to which I would object. Nevertheless, I would have to distance myself from the adulation shown by Senator Higgins. He spoke with exuberance of the track record to date of the Minister and he told us that he never ceases to marvel at the milk concessions won by the Minister. I am not very deeply involved in agriculture and I do not profess to speak for anybody in the agricultural community. Nevertheless, I have some commitment and some concern and it is my view that every agricultural group and every agricultural organisation — I would go so far as to say that almost every farmer in this country — is at loggerheads with the Minister on his track record. It is not for me to say how right or how wrong they are. Nevertheless, in face of the praise given by Senator Higgins, I would have to say and put on the record that I believe not many farmers would agree with his expressions.

This report is very complicated and lengthy. It is important at the outset that I state categorically that I have not studied it in great depth. Whatever changes may take place in the CAP they will have serious consequences for the people of this country in the years to come. For that reason I think it is important when standing up to make a contribution that I would state quite clearly that I am not an expert in this area and that I have not given it the examination or study that would be necessary to make a definitive or categorical contribution. In making my contribution in the past I have always had difficulty with regard to reports, whether to make a global examination of the report or to take up certain areas. In the areas in which I have been involved and where I have been a member of a committee I have gone into it in great depth. Otherwise I have taken isolated portions with which I am concerned. That is what I intend to do in this contribution.

Before I deal with the report there are a few observations I would like to make by way of explaining my situation. First, in association with other Members I would like to thank and congratulate the committee and, more importantly, the sub-committee who seem to have borne the brunt of the work of this committee, as with all the reports we have dealt with.

It seems to me that we are entering a period when intensive farming will become popular. We should be prepared for this. Intensive farming will mean that fewer people will be producing more crops and more materials so that, in effect, this will mean less work. This will have serious repercussions for this country which has an agricultural base. I mentioned in this House before that in 1928 for every 20 workers in industry we had 80 in agriculture. Now the situation is completely reversed. It seems that at present for every 80 people we have in industry we have only 20 in agriculture. That is an area that requires serious examination. I am sure there are many large farms of 300 and 400 acres with only the man and his wife and perhaps a dog to look after the herding. Maybe this is essential. But certainly when we come into the situation of intensive farming this will be more pronounced. We will have many problems for which we are not prepared. From reports I have read recently on food and research in particular it seems that less land will be required to produce the crops. In a situation where we are trying to reclaim and improve land there seems to be some anomaly when we are told that we are entering an era when less land will be needed. This will be a major problem for many farmers.

Other members have mentioned the imports of cheap food substitutes for farming. This has been emphasised many times in the House, particularly with regard to grazing and the utilisation of grass. These cheap food substitutes are a major problem. From what I have read and from what I hear, it seems nothing has been done in this regard. Something should be done. Back through our history the farmers were struggling for an existence. As Senator Hourigan has rightly said, when we entered a period of relative prosperity where it seemed the sky was the limit, with the extended Common Market where we have 300 million people to cater for, it seemed that the prospects would be good. It is very difficult to understand that the opposite is the case, that these things are contributing to the problem instead of helping it.

This is a very complicated area and it would be a very intrepid individual who would stand up and claim to be an expert in all areas we are concerned with here. I would like to read two short paragraphs from a publication by Alan Matthews which was commissioned by Trócaire and published by Gill and Macmillan in October 1985. It is entitled The Common Agricultural Policy and the Less Developed Countries. In fairness, in dealing with this I would have to say it seems that there is a general view that the production of surplus crops is a bad thing. Not everyone would subscribe to that view. I would preface what I have to say with that. The two short paragraphs will put in perspective some of the things I want to say and will bear out my view that it is a very complicated area. This is the extract:

Many of the controversies about food and agriculture in the European Community (EC) centre on the problems of food abundance. The EC's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is associated in the public mind with images of overflowing grain stores, butter mountains, wine lakes and the destruction of fruit and vegetables. For the majority of countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America, however, food problems centre on deficits and malnutrition. Food production has failed to keep pace with domestic demand, and valuable foreign exchange is diverted to import food to maintain consumption standards. Even at these standards, millions have insufficient to eat.

This contrast of abundance and hunger, over-nutrition and under-nutrition provokes contradictory reactions. Although many people would like to see EC agricultural policy take greater account of the interests of LDCs, there is little agreement about how this might be done. Farming organisations reject criticism of surpluses in a world of scarcity as an absurdity, and argue for greater EC production so long as hunger exists. Others advocate a policy of agricultural self-sufficiency to minimise LDCs dependence on industrialised country markets, and to reduce the opportunities for international agri-business penetration of LDCs. Yet others call for the removal of protection to EC farming in the belief that this will stimulate greater food production in LDCs themselves.

Further on it states that there are considerable external pressures on the EC to reform its agricultural policy:

Other agricultural exporting countries are increasingly angry at what they see as the EC's encroachment on their markets with the aid of subsidised sales.

That puts into some perspective the price restrictions. For the lesser developed countries it is not a bad thing because it means in effect that they will get more for their exports, which is important in their own economy. I state that by introduction to show the enormous complexity of the problems that will arise in a changing world.

With regard to the report — I have a habit of doing things backwards — I would like to begin at the end. First of all, the committee asserted that a coherent and viable policy for agriculture is indispensible to the economic, social and political stability of Europe. This is particularly relevant to the Irish situation. The Minister mentioned that we must subscribe to change and that we are not against change. In an on-going situation change and growth is inevitable. We must be prepared for this change in order to benefit properly from it.

The committee reached the conclusion that the basic fabric of the CAP is sound. It has made a unique contribution to the economic and social well-being of Europe and of this country. We should be loath to agree to any change which would bring about a situation where we would lose out instead of gaining. The real cost of the CAP expenditure is not excessive and not out of proportion with similar expenditure in non-Community countries. The committee said that this point, unfortunately, has not been conveyed in a convincing manner to the consumer. Why did the committee not take this opportunity of going into some detail to spell this out? Obviously it would take some time, but it is important. The opportunity to do that has been missed. The committee went on to state that any revision of the CAP must result only from measures designed to ensure its survival as the main instrument of agricultural development in Europe. Those are fairly strong words.

With regard to environmental conservation, which is dealt with in several places in the report, the committee welcomed the concern expressed in the Green Paper for the protection of the environment. It stated that the Community has now adopted well-formulated programmes for environmental conservation. I am not aware of these, but I welcome them. The committee state that they hope, in a later report, to return to this topic and deal with it in greater depth. I welcome that also and hope it will happen very soon. It is important to formulate programmes for the conservation of the environment. No matter what people say about the environment, it is suffering in many ways. I hope to refer to that in my contribution. It is very important that the joint committee would put on the table exactly what it means with regard to environmental conservation. It is a vast area. I would hope that, whatever programme they have, individuals and people will be the central part of it. In many cases in urban situations the motor car is the focal point and everything is built about the requirements of the car rather than the requirements of the individual.

The report is based on an examination of the Green Paper on the future of the CAP and also on the Commission's document, A Future for Community Agriculture. In fairness, before any body could make a meaningful contribution to this debate it would be necessary to examine both documents in depth. I have not had the opportunity of doing so.

The joint committee see the role of the CAP as central to Irish agriculture and rural development. That has been stated over and over again by all the members who contributed to the report. The report tells us that the operation of the CAP has now resolved the developmental issues in Irish farming. I take this to mean, and it seems to be an obscure statement, that the structures of Irish farming are more or less set through the CAP. They say that it would be with considerable difficulty that these could be altered. In other words, we are anchored to that particular situation by reason of the CAP and we cannot change easily without taking a different road, which obviously we do not want to do. It would not be in our interest to do so. The Joint Committee welcome the opportunity to revise the CAP in order to make it more effective, particularly in the Irish context. Before it becomes more effective many pieces must fall properly into place. A considerable part must be played by the Government and by the Minister for Agriculture. I wish the Minister well in that regard.

I have already mentioned the debt of gratitude that we owe to the subcommittee under the chairmanship of Deputy Joe Walsh. It is important to recognise the contribution by all those who made written and oral submissions — the ICMSA, the IFA, the ICOS, Macra na Feirme, An Foras Talúntais, An Comhairle Oiliúna Talmhaíochta (ACOT) and the Department of Agriculture. The importance of this document is underlined by the standard of the submissions and by the important organisations who made these submissions.

Shortly after taking office in January 1985, the Commission decided to initiate a general discussion on the perspectives of the CAP. They presented the Green Paper which they see as setting the framework for a dialogue between the Community institutions and professional organisations. The Common Agricultural Policy has been the cornerstone of the development of the European Community over the past 23 years. For that reason and also for the reason that it has been so successful, we should be very loath to agree to changes which are not in our own interest.

The Commission presented a document with a number of options for the future development of policy. Of course, we will have to go into all of these options. The CAP has undergone continual adaptations in the course of its development. This is something that is necessary in every organisation and in every set up. There has to be change in accordance with the times. In the early years technical progress in agricultural production was important and it led to rapid migration of workers from the land. But now the unfavourable, uneconomic conditions which have been prevailing since the middle years of the seventies have slowed down the outflow of labour. The high levels of unemployment within the Community has resulted in not just a static situation but a reversal of this trend.

Many Members have adverted to the family farm. This report deals with the family farm in many different places. The Commission sees the basic concept of European agriculture as the family farm. This is something which must give satisfaction to us all. I believe, and every Member of the House who contributed feels in so far as I understand from the contributions, that aid in the area of agriculture should be structured through the family farm. I believe that this goes back to the Treaty of Rome. It brings in many questions as to sizes of family farms. This is something that has always been a problem in this country. I suppose a farmer, to be a success, must be aggressively inclined. He must contemplate increasing the size of his farm. This may have led to friction. We have always had an agrarian problem in the past. We had a different problem in the county that I come from, County Meath, where originally we had very big landowners who hired workers for these lands. We did not have the middle class to a great extent. That has been changed now. I am sure there would be difficulty in deciding what a viable farm would be. This is always an open question. In situations around us we often see the best farmers confined because they have a very limited area of land, whereas lazy farmers have the benefit of large farms. I am just mentioning that in passing. We also have the increased problem, a result of the high cost of land in recent years, that, as I see in my native Meath, many farms are being sold. Many genuine farmers were encouraged to buy extra land in those years. They have now fallen by the wayside and they have high debts which are very difficult to repay.

There is great need for the stabilisation of the Irish farm. We should recognise that the important unit in Irish agriculture is the family farm. We should also recognise the contribution over the years of the family farm and hope that this will continue into the future. It is encouraging to see that that is the view of the European Community. The need to maintain the social tissue in the rural regions, to conserve the natural environment and to safeguard the landscape are reasons determining this choice. Again this brings in the question of the landscape and the environment. The landscape has been conditioned by husbandry over many centuries into the shape it is in at present. Of course, in past eras change was slow whereas at present we have rapid change. The configuration of quite a large area could be changed in a very short period of time by the planting of trees or building of roads. This brings us to the area of the environment which I would specifically like to deal with, but I will reserve that contribution until we get this further report on the environment which is promised by the joint committee.

A farming industry based on the USA model with vast farms and few farmers is neither possible nor desirable in European conditions. It certainly is not desirable, and I am sure that it would be almost impossible in this country. Thank God for that. The essence of the problem therefore is how to maintain a significant number of persons working in agriculture without an unacceptable waste of economic and financial resources. That seems to be the problem of the EC. It is a problem in the solution of which this country will, I am sure, play a very important part. Technological advances are affecting agriculture, not only in the Community but on a worldwide basis. It is argued that if the Community wishes to maintain its role in international trade, the CAP must take account of the international realities. Of course, we must take account of the international realities. I do not believe we have any option.

In the space of my lifetime I have seen enormous technological advances. I have experience of working beside my grandmother, working the hook on the corn. Later we saw the scythe and the mowing mill, then the reaper and binder and now the combine harvester. In my youth I envisaged that the ultimate would be to have a machine that would cut down the corn and at the same time produce ham sandwiches. Indeed it does not seem that we are altogether too far from that situation. With the advances that have been made in the last 50 years — and we are told change in the next 50 years will be at the same pace if not greater — it is hard to envisage what life is going to be like in another 100 years. Nevertheless in dealing with this report and in dealing with the CAP we are dealing with the foundations of a situation which will be built on the decisions made in this regard.

It is important to realise that in the Community there are other sectors experiencing difficulties. They are making demands on expenditure. As budgetary resources are limited this implies that the CAP must take account of financial restraints. There is no alternative. There are too many people clamouring for finances and a fair share must accrue to everybody.

The Commission contend that it is not in the long term interest of European agriculture to extend the regime of quotas considering Europe's great potential for production and the consequences for consumers in higher prices which could result from such a policy. Thus there can be no alternative to pursuing a price policy more adapted to the realities of the internal and external markets. Of course, we would have to agree with that. At the same time there is a considerable body of thought which feels that the high prices also benefit the less developed countries. Because of their exchange rates, through the higher prices, they are benefiting more than if the prices were lower.

The CAP will not fulfil its role if it does not provide farmers with positive perspectives and a sounder framework for succeeding generations. That is the important aspect. The present is important, but there must be a successful basis for succeeding generations. If it fails in this regard, the policy would inevitably undergo a process of renationalisation and polarisation to bring us back to where we were. This would lead to undesirable consequences for the development of European integration. We accept that a miracle solution is not possible, but this is not to say that some external consequences and influences could be of considerable help. Nevertheless, we have gone past the stage where we are looking for a miraculous solution.

The document indicates a number of options which may be considered. I do not intend to go into them in any detail. I will mention them in passing. At the level of production, although a number of markets have given rise to problems, the cereal market is identified as the sector most urgently in need of review. A considerable part of the document is devoted to this area. The possibility of alternative production and the promotion of novel crops is considered. It is proper to consider this and it is being considered quite apart from the Common Agricultural Policy. It is not easy to see what options are available. There are some, but by and large crop production is conditioned by the climate and soil. It may very well be that there are possibilities in this regard. Other Members have reservations about the benefits they have. It is worthwhile carrying out research in this area. In every area of life at present research is important. Anybody working in a professional capacity finds it necessary to spend at least half a day in the week reading up on developments in order to keep abreast of things. This applies in all areas and it applies very much to agriculture.

At the level of outlets, the development of new uses, especially industrial and energy utilisation, offer possibilities; but that potential is of limited scope under present conditions. When we speak of energy utilisation we touch an area with which many of us would be sympathetic, but it is a pity that the report leves it hanging in the air. Energy utilisation could be spelled out in greater detail and if there is any possibility in this regard we should pursue it.

Up to now the instrument of price support has been the principal feature of the Common Agricultural Policy. The report goes on to speak about the emphasis on guarantee rather than guidance. I am not sure if I would agree with the distinction. Both could fit in quite properly. The report goes on to deal with certain restrictions as regards policy, the risk of growing polarisation between the advantaged and disadvantaged areas of the Community and the challenges of enlargement. I do not have to go into those as they have been dealt with already.

It is hard to know where to concentrate in dealing with a report of this kind. I have picked out some areas to refer to, and doubtless other Senators would feel that they would have a different idea of importance and put an emphasis on different areas. The Commission devote particular attention to the cereals market. The spectacular increase in yields in the cereals market has posed a real dilemma for the Community. The prospect is for the supply of cereals to grow significantly faster than demand and the surplus would become impossible for the Community to manage or finance. Most people would feel that the poorer countries should benefit from this. I do not think the choice has to be made that we lose out in this situation. I would hope that the less well off and less developed countries would be able to benefit from the surplus crops we produce. I would urge the Minister that in whatever dealings he has, that while being conscious of his obligation to look after the interests of our farmers, to be also conscious of our obligation with regard to the less well off countries.

I welcome the report and thank the members of the Committee for the hard work put into such a comprehensive work. I am particularly interested in the references to the next report which will come out dealing with the environment. I sincerely hope that in that report individuals will be the concern of the committee rather than the situation we have at present. I look forward to that report.

First of all, I would like to say that I was impressed with the level of debate and general support for the Minister and all of us in our efforts to fight the Irish cause in what looks like being a difficult battle ahead. I would like to compliment the speakers. I would not agree with Senator Fitzsimons's comments on the Minister. As one who has served in farming organisatons over the years, it is one thing to have a little tiff with a Minister when you are a farm leader; but, by and large, farmers, from what I know of them, seem to respect what the Minister is doing and are very supportive of his general approach to his job. Even the most biased of people would have to admit that he did an excellent job when it came to the milk quotas. We are unique in Europe in so far as he achieved something that even some of his officials would hardly have believed, and we came out of it well.

The farm leaders believe that they have to be taking on the particular Government of the day. They see that as their job. I would not say that they think less of the Minister because they have to be seen to be putting up a good fight. It has been generally agreed over the years, especially since we entered the EC, that you would be supporting the Minister of the day by making your case loud and clear at home. In other words, if farmers were to appear to be happy, then it would be a weakening rather than a strengthening of the Minister's hand; whereas, if the Minister could say out in Brussels that his farmers are screaming at home, he obviously could make a much stronger case. That is the way it has been.

Senator O'Toole mentioned this morning the OBF status. We will have that officially in April and it is good news. He also mentioned that he feared that not as much money as he would like would be made available towards TB eradication this year. He exhorted the Minister to ensure that as much money as possible be made available towards an accelerated scheme of testing. So say all of us.

Senator Hourigan in his contribution referred to the safety net in the case of beef intervention. We can go along with the general concept of a safety net. However, because of our unique production and marketing situation, we have to be very careful that the safety net and all its ramifications would be laid down clearly by the Council of Ministers and not left to the discretion of the Commission. In the long term anything that would in any way hinder our beef production would be damaging to the EC. I have said in this House and in the other House that we have a large disadvantaged area. The point we keep on making to them is that it is much better to allow us develop our natural resources in so far as they can be developed unhindered rather than coming in with too many restrictions on us. To quote the old proverb, we would much prefer to be taught how to fish than to be given fish. The more we are allowed to develop our dairy, beef and cereal production, the better. After all, it has to be said that we as a nation have not created too many mountains especially when one considers, as was rightly mentioned today, the vast productions of countries like Holland, which has again relied very substantially for its dairying feed on sugar beet pulp from as far away as California. One would often wonder, in the event of a world war situation, how they would fare out in looking after their herds of cows.

The dismantling of intervention would have very severe effects on the Irish market because our production is seasonal with heavy disposals in the autumn. It is essential that market support such as intervention be available at that time if a serious price fall is to be avoided. Ireland is self-sufficient in beef and has no big home market to assist in price maintenance. We are, therefore, much more dependent on an effective Community floor price support than any other member state. The withdrawal of intervention support at the peak supply season would mean that increased quantities of Irish beef would have to be sold at that time on the market, either in other member states who would have heavy supplies and where normal preference would be in favour of domestic production, or in third country markets where we would be very dependent on the level of export refunds provided by the Commission and where the export refunds themselves are not in threat. We are not going to be able to crack that pattern. We know that. That pattern is going to stay with us. It is very important that we be allowed to produce as we have been producing.

I would like to run through the points made very briefly. The general feeling was that the maintenance of the CAP was vital in creating a market-oriented industry. Nobody can disagree with that. That has been one of the difficulties of the intervention scene. It has led us into some bad habits both in beef and in dairying. We have leaned too heavily over the past number of years on the intervention system. I do not think we have been vigorous enough in the marketing scene. Perhaps that has caused, on a European basis, some of our problems. We have not pushed into Third World markets. We are doing it now — some of us more vigorously than others. More and more of that will have to happen. It has been said — and we have to keep on repeating it — that there is not much point in producing for storage.

Several Members today mentioned the development of new ideas of production. For instance, the whole area of cereals. We are net importers of very large quantities of milling wheat. Our millers have been approached and have generally accepted that they have neither the finance nor the storage capacity to take in enough milling wheat at autumn time. That is something that will have to be tackled by the co-operatives and merchants generally. Reliable varieties of winter and spring wheat will have to be grown specifically for milling and this would have to be monitored. As we all know, what happens at harvest time is that it all gets mixed up — there are good and bad wheats, soft and hard wheats all ending up more or less in the same bin. We would want to adopt a totally new approach. Perhaps the need was not felt up to now. One was paid more or less the same for both. The market was there for the feed wheats. But, looking into the future, we will have to concentrate on good milling varieties and grow almost under contract for co-operatives who would store it properly and, in turn, sell it to the millers.

Again, the malting industry. I like the way Senator Fitzsimons went into the past. It is no harm to go back into the past and realise that in the post-war era we were net exporters of malt. That continued for a number of years. Disappointingly, we find that some of our brewers are using imported malt. That is a pity. Perhaps we should concentrate a bit more on encouraging them to use Irish grain.

Senator Hourigan and many other Senators mentioned our special position and the fact that we are a developing nation, an island nation and a nation distant from the market place. By European standards, we would not be considered a very well off nation of farmers. That is the basis for our stand and should be the Minister's strength. We agree, basically, that the Commission has problems but we have to be careful that the solutions and the approaches, damaging to us, are not adopted — suggestions and proposals that eventually would be bad for the Community itself.

Several Members mentioned that we should look at new concepts and new crops. While the discussion was taking place, it occurred to me that maybe we should be asking other nations to do the same. For instance, the Community import quite a lot of citrus fruit from the Third World. Maybe some of these nations could be persuaded to, for instance, bring up the supply of fruits, such as oranges, from Mediterranean nations. I am sure that would be possible. With regard to ourselves, we could and should be doing much more with regard to new ventures.

You may ask why we have not been doing so. The simple answer is that the need to do so was not there. You could produce all the milk you could. Maybe that was a good thing and maybe we did not concentrate enough on milk. Over the years we made one bad mistake and got a bad lead in some of the advice that we received. We should be concentrating more on the cost of the gallon of milk and trying to produce it from grass rather than copying some of our now well off neighbours who very wisely went into the use of grain to supplement the grass for increasing dairy yields. Had we done that in the sixties and seventies we would probably have double our present quota. It is too late to be talking about it now.

We could still look at the whole area of sheep production, particularly lowland sheep production. Time is not on our side. Many young people are going into farming at present. I was glad to notice that there was a great concentration by people, like Senator Fitzsimons, on the family farm. For young farmers one of the big advantages in taking over farms is that they have opportunities that did not exist before. There is a very high level of grant aid and there will be financing for young farmers on taking over a farm to help set them up properly in farming. There are things we could be doing with regard to potato production. We are doing our best to encourage processors to come along, as we are still net importers. We are very substantial net importers of processed potatoes, mainly french fries or chips. We are making some progress but not as much as we would like.

With regard to another new area, at the turn of the century we grew many thousands of acres of flax in this country, both North and South. When you ask people about it nowadays, it is a vague memory of a very dirty job. Thanks to technology which has caught up with the crop, it is now grown very widely in Belgium. I went over to see it myself. We grew some plots last year. This year we propose—this is actually news because it is only happening these days—to extend our trials. We are not as yet ready to go fully commercial on flax. We are growing about 150 acres—15 farmers growing about ten acres each. We would hope to process that crop, probably in the North of Ireland. As a result of our findings, hopefully we will go ahead on a much more expanded acreage in the coming year. While we have been talking all day about cutbacks and the recessionary approach of the EC, this is one of the crops that is being encouraged by the EC to the tune of £250 per hectare. Before everybody else grabs it up, we should be in there.

We have a great tradition down the years in Irish linen. Irish linen is coming into its own again. Man made fibres are being replaced in the warm climates, especially the wealthy Middle East countries, by linen which has proven to be more suitable for wear in that particular climate. It is also being used in ladies' wear. It has become very fashionable. The important thing is that the market has grown out of all proportion within the last few years. The only Irish linen at present is whatever Irish linen is produced in the North. We would hope that eventually we would have our own linen industry. We have to start somewhere.

Another area is the area of orchards. It is not so long ago that we had well over 1,000 acres of orchards. Again, because of the difficulties of apples and the lack of interest in the crop due to the fact that most farmers went for dairying and as we made a mistake in trying to go after the French by growing Golden Delicious and losing sight of our own traditional varieties, e.g. Brandies, we found ourselves without an apple industry. We are now proposing to get back into that scene very quickly again. The interest is very encouraging. We will be concentrating on some of our traditional varieties.

There are other areas that some people find rather amusing, such as Angora wool. It is extraordinary that in Scotland at present many millions of pounds worth of Angora wool is being imported from as far away as New Zealand. That is an area that should be looked at. We saw over the last few months some very interesting reports by joint commissions, people, from all parties, sitting down and developing a theme and looking over a particular situation. Maybe such a commission could be set up whereby Members from both Houses could sit down and look at new ideas, new projects and proposals to put to the Government of the day that would help in the employment of young people. I am optimistic enough to believe that we do have a very well educated and bright young farming community. We have a very suitable climate for many crops. Not as suitable as we would like for some horticultural products but we should make the most of the climate. We should make the most of our farms. We should make the most of the opportunities that are still there.

I will conclude by conveying, to the Minister and to the people in the Department the good wishes of the Members of the House for a successful outcome to the deliberations.

Question put and agreed to.
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