I have notice from Senator John Ellis regarding a motion which he wishes to move under Standing Order 29.
Request under Standing Order 29.
In view of the present position of the dispute between the agricultural officers and the Department of the Public Service which has disrupted all agricultural production in this country, I feel that the House should give time to debate this urgent matter. Also, I understand that Senator Killilea prior to this gave notice of a matter which he wished to raise on the Adjournment. There is one hour and a half allowed for the debate under Standing Order 29, if allowed.
This is a difficult situation. Senator Ellis raised this matter here this morning when the Seanad sat. Prior to that, two minutes before that, I had told Senator Killilea I would take his motion on the Adjournment. If I take Senator Ellis's motion now as a matter of urgent importance I cannot take Senator Killilea's. I am going to leave it to somebody else to decide because five Senators have to stand. If five Senators stand up I will take Senator Ellis's motion. If five Senators do not stand up, I will then take the matter Senator Killilea wishes to raise. It is an unfortunate situation. Naturally, I am sorry for Senator Killilea because if Senator Ellis had mentioned this to myself or any of the officials before we came in, we would not have given the commitment to Senator Killilea.
I understand, having raised a matter under Standing Order 29 some years ago, that the matter would be taken normally at a given time for an hour and a half. As far as I can remember, on that occasion——
At the end of the day.
I do not think that the rule states "at the end of the day".
It does because I looked very closely at it.
It says that the House may be suspended for a period of one and a half hours.
You are moving the Adjournment of the House?
I am moving the Adjournment of the House for a debate on this matter.
I am not going to argue with you about it, Senator Ellis. I have decided that the motion is one covered by the Standing Order and I ask the Senators who support the request to rise in their places.
Five Members rose in their places.
In view of my acceptance of the request by Senator Ellis, the Adjournment Matter cannot be taken today. Senator Killilea may give notice for another day of the matter which he wishes to raise and the debate will take place.
There are a few comments that I would like to make.
The debate will take place at 2.30 p.m. on Senator Ellis's motion. Senator Killilea will appreciate my difficulty.
I appreciate it a bit more than that because I know it might not be my day in this House. I had another problem earlier on which we discussed and dealt with. You actually declared this morning in this House, a Chathaoirligh, that my motion was to be taken. That is written into the Official Report.
You are being stabbed in the back by your own colleagues.
The Senator should not get into this matter. This is not the first time that this has happened to me.
It is not.
I am a democratically elected Member of this House, like every other Senator and we all have our rights. I have abided by the rules of this House consistently and persistently since the first day I came here. I have never tried in any way to do anything other than by the norm. I had raised a matter here before concerning the Letterfrack group water scheme. It happened on the day of the Chernobyl disaster. Again, we had this major problem and I was hijacked and thrown outside the door with my proposal. Chernobyl was a terrible disaster and I must admit that the disaster that my follow Senators here on this side of the House are talking about today is also a major disaster. It shows that this most inept Government we have is not performing its duties in a correct and proper way. I want to endorse what my colleagues have asked for in the sense that what they are seeking is absolutely correct.
I came to Dublin in the normal way this week. I had a matter of major importance — a most particular and peculiar amalgamation of a school in my adjoining parish, which has eight school teachers in it. I asked for conformation to allow amalgamation which the former Minister, Deputy Donal Creed, told me about this time last year would proceed in 1985. If that Government had worked properly in 1985, as was promised to me and as is reported in the Official Report of this House, that amalgamation of the Currandulla National School would have taken place. As they did with the farming community, they did not do their job. This week I am beseeching again through the normal channel. I have a motion on the Adjournment of major importance to the community I represent. I do my best to represent them.
You are doing reasonably well.
I put down my motion in the normal way under the rules of this House. That motion was submitted at a certain time yesterday. I was informed officially last night that my motion was being taken. Nobody can deny that.
You were informed this morning, never mind last night.
It was confirmed to me this morning that this important motion would be taken at a specific time today.
Senator Rory Kiely did not want to change the Order of Business.
This is out of order.
I have spent a good part of my political life in this House. I have great respect for this House. Yesterday I witnessed a debacle of a kind that I had not witnessed here before. I refer to the performance of the people who are supposed to lead and guide this House.
And giving great mileage to everyone.
I have been a Member of this House for a long time, but I have never seen anything like it in my life. One may talk about lack of leadership. We had absolutely nothing. We did not know whether we were coming or going, to-ing or fro-ing.
We got through it.
You, a Chathaoirligh, informed me yesterday, properly and correctly, that my motion would be taken today. It was declared this morning. Now you come along and say that you feel sorry for Senator Killilea. There is an old Irish phrase, "what good is sympathy to any man", and then there was the wise old woman——
I have been fair enough. I will have to ask the Senator to resume his seat.
Are you going to get the horse on me now?
I will not. I have been more than fair.
It is my right to look after the children of the village of Currandulla who are placed in a most unfortunate situation. We were promised something this time last year.
I will adjourn the House if the Senator does not resume his seat.
I do not want an adjournment of the House at all, but I want this point cleared. This Government through Deputy Donal Creed, promised me last year on the same motion as I have here again this year that that matter would be dealt with by October 1985. Here, I am at the end of the curriculum year in 1986 and the Government have refused again——
I will adjourn the House.
I have entitlements too.
I will suspend the sitting for five minutes.
Sitting suspended at 12.05 p.m. and resumed at 12.10 p.m.
Senator Ferris is in possession.
On a point of order, where do I stand now?
On your feet.
I am not clear on this. I would like clarification. I was granted the right to raise a motion on the amalgamation of the Currandulla national school. I was promised this by the former Minister of State, Deputy Creed, this time last year. The amalgamation was to be completed in 1985.
Before that it was granted to me.
I welcome Senator Michael D. Higgins to the House because I know he will assist me in this matter. I have been superseded for the second time in this House. The same thing happened in regard to the group water scheme in Letterfrack when we had an urgent important matter to deal with. That occasion was different from this, because the Cathaoirleach this morning granted to me at a specific time today that this most important matter would be dealt with under the process of notice of motion. That notice of motion was in for the completion of the amalgamation of Currandulla national school. Now, I am in the exact same situation, with one exception: this time it was granted to me, the last time I was told it was superseded. I cannot understand how a matter like this can be changed at the whim of a sheet of paper being handed into the Clerk's office around 11 o'clock. I understand that the matter that my fellow Senator——
I will have to ask the Senator to resume his seat.
I want to clarify the situation. This inept Government are not doing their job with regard to agriculture. I am a democratically elected Senator to this House. I am not like a few more who have been hi-jacked in here over the heads of many people. I went through the process of being elected democratically. I use my democracy——
You are getting far away——
I say that merely because of a remark that was made to me outside by one — who came in by the side avenue, if you know what I mean. I put down a motion yesterday under the rules of this House. I was informed last night that that motion would be taken today. It was endorsed this morning that the motion would be taken today.
Everyone agrees with that.
I believe Standing Orders have got to be re-arranged so that this cannot happen to any Senator in this House ever again.
The Senator will have to resume his seat.
I am in the situation that the acting Leader of the House announced the business of the day. Prior to doing that, you as Cathaoirleach acting correctly announced to this House that my motion was being taken. We agreed with the order of the business of the day. I agreed with your order. I believe Standing Orders have to be re-arranged so that this cannot happen to any Senator ever again.
I will have to ask the Senator to resume his seat.
I am being hi-jacked because of a Standing Order which I am not familiar with. It should be outlined to us all, loud and clear, at this stage that in my opinion the amalgamation of the Currandulla National School is just as important as any other matter. There is a very fine community in that area. They have ordered their work to be done in an orderly fashion.
Senator Killilea, I am asking you to resume your seat. Before we go on to item 2, Standing Order 29 overrides the decision. What happened was unfortunate and the man to blame is Senator Ellis.
On a point of order, it is not Senator Ellis or any other Senator who is to blame. The rules which the Chair has in front of him are to blame.
If you want to change the rules——
You make a decision in the morning and change it an hour later. What sort of rule is that?
The rule book says that I can do that.
Where is the rule that says the Cathaoirleach can change what he said in the morning an hour and a half later?
In order to restore order and decorum to this House I propose that we adjourn now for lunch until 2 o'clock.
Sitting suspended at 12.20 p.m. and resumed at 2 o'clock.
Senator Ferris.
Can I make a point of order?
I do not know what the new point of order is?
Taking into account the extraordinary circumstances in which this impasse arose — and the circumstances are extraordinary — in that the Official Report of this House will show my request was granted by the Cathaoirleach before the Order of Business was declared today. Could we agreed to share the time——
No.
——taking into account the extraordinary circumstances prevailing?
No, because when Senator Ellis's motion is finished the House is adjourned.
May I put it this way? Taking into account that you cannot do that and I accept your word on it, I was only making a plea because of the extraordinary circumstances, and pointing out that what has happened here today — and I make this point for all Senators — is actually going to happen again and again.
Unless there is a change.
It is not my job to change that. It is the job of this House to change that. It is not quite fair to Senators in this House from any side to be placed in the situation that I have been placed in for the second time in recent weeks. I think it is a bit much. I have no disrespect for what has happened.
It happened twice in this House since I become Chairman. The Senator was involved on both occasions.
It was not that I was involved, but I was the loser on both occasions. I am working within the rules and the Standing Orders of this House totally and completely.
The Senator is not working within the rules now.
I assume I am. There is a point in highlighting all this and that is that the rules are now not working in favour of people who are——
(Interruptions.)
I just want to make the plea to the Cathaoirleach and to whoever is responsible regarding the rules of this House that this matter be taken up forthwith.
There is machinery for dealing with it.
If there is I do not know what the machinery is. I am working within the machinery that is known to me.
It is known to the Senator's Whip and the members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
(Interruptions.)
I do not want any comments from the Senator about the leniency of the Chair. The Chair is a man I respect both in his position as Cathaoirleach and privately. I do not want any inference to the contrary. I am highlighting the point here, as the Chair has rightly said today, that it has happened twice to me. I feel very sore about it personally and I do not care what any other Senators may think.
I have to ask the Senator to resume his seat.
In honesty, a final point, I am asking you as the man who is responsible for the application of Standing Orders that you would highlight this problem at the relevant committee so that this impasse can be overcome.
The Senator must bring it through his representative on the committee. That is the machinery of the committee. If the Senator does that I will support it the whole way through.
The alternative to that, a Cathaoirligh, is that I start hijacking the rules in the manner by which I have been hijacked in this House.
Senator Ferris on item No. 2.
On a point of order. We should ask the Clerk and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to review the situation. I might seem to be the one responsible but I was within my rights having put down the motion under the Standing Order. Perhaps the rules of the House should be adjusted to provide that the motion must be in before the commencement of business or something to that effect.
The Senator should get his own representative——
That answer is not good enough.
Senator Ferris on item No. 2.
We have highlighted a problem in the rules of this House.
Order.
Senator Ferris on item No. 2.
Those who are directing the procedure of this House should take it on board forthwith and we should not have to go through this quick reply process of "see your boss".
On a point of order, the rules of this House cannot be changed at the whim of any Senator, instantly or otherwise. We have to abide by the existing rules. I agree that Senator Killilea has been unfortunate in what has happened to him. It has happened because of a request from members of his own party to adjourn the House. There cannot be two adjournments of the same House on the same day. The Chair has been very fair in the application of the rules. I suggest to Senator Killilea that he consult with his representative on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and we will address ourselves to his problem. This problem cannot be solved on the floor of the House by interfering with the Chair's trying to implement the rules of the House.
On a point of Order. It is grossly unfair of Senator Ferris to make the inference that this row was caused because Senator Ellis brought in a motion under Standing Order 29. That is the Standing Order that is deemed to provide for dealing with matters of urgency. The motion on the Adjournment is a totally different matter. Motions on the Adjournment are not, generally speaking, matters of grave public urgency. They are matters of local importance.
Convince Senator Killilea of that.
There is a need for a total overhaul of the procedures of this House. The sooner all the procedures of this House are gone into the better. I would suggest that at the next meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges this item be dealt with. The inference is that the Whip or I should raise the matter. It is not a matter for the Whip of this party or any party to raise. It is a matter for the House.
What happened here today just shows that this House has not been able to deal with matters of urgency and matters of normal business under the Adjournment procedure.
Much of the recent media attention to this House has been very bad. Possibly one of the reasons is that the regulations under which we operate are outdated. We should have a question time here so that matters can be dealt with on a daily basis when the House sits and that matters such as the matter raised by Senator Ellis today, can be dealt with as matters of urgency. There should not be any suggestion that because Standing Order 29 is brought in that does away with the motion on the Adjournment. It should not happen. We must address ourselves to these problems.