Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jun 1986

Vol. 113 No. 3

Adjournment Matter. - County Galway Schools Amalgamation.

Mr. Killilea

I will take this opportunity of wishing the Minister well in his new post because it is a difficult one. It is nice to see a west of Ireland man getting the job and I hope that Deputy Kenny will have many happy years in that position — that is, of course, if the next general election does not come between him and that happiness.

I want to thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for the tolerance you showed last week in a very precarious situation and to assure you that anything I have ever said in this House was never said by way of offence to you personally. I was complaining about the regulations of this House and not about you personally in case I might have been misinterpreted.

We are discussing a matter this evening of serious concern to the community of Corrandulla. Corrandulla is a renowned parish in County Galway. I am sure you will all remember the famous poems about Anach Chuain which is part of the parish of Corrandulla. This time last year the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Donal Creed — a very fine Minister and a man for whom I have great respect — was here at my request to answer a similar question. He gave a remarkable performance here in the House in consolidating the situation from a ministerial point of view on what the Department's feelings were concerning Corrandulla schools. At that time the major question was, and, sad to say, still is, the amalgamation of the two schools in Corrandulla. To explain it a little more, the then Minister said on that occasion that the amalgamation should take place in 1985. The community of Corrandulla and I were very satisfied with that response and certain promises regarding other matters — which I will deal with later — also came into play that evening.

I will deal first with the question of amalgamation because that is the primary concern of that community. The people of Corrandulla and the school management board are placed in a most peculiar situation — and I sympathise with them — in that the need for a new school is paramount but in the circumstances and having regard to the financial constraints the idea of building a new school seems to have been shelved for the moment. I will deal with that later, too.

The two schools which would be involved in the amalgamation are the boys' national school and the girls' national school which are in two different town-lands but only about 250 or 300 yards apart. There are eight classes in the two schools, four in each. The request is that, taking into account the Department's desire and the community's desire for amalgamation, they would retain their eight teachers. At the moment there are 219 children on the rolls; there will be more if amalgamation takes place next year and there may be fewer if amalgamation does not take place. That is an optimistic viewpoint.

The chairman of the board of management, Father O'Brien — a very fine parish priest — has made many visits to the Department to try to iron out the problem, his most recent visit being last Monday week. His case, which is a very reasonable one, is that they are entitled with 219 children to have seven teachers under amalgamation, plus one for amalgamation, which is eight teachers, but the problem is that if one of the teachers were to leave either of the schools they would then only be entitled to seven teachers. The board of management made the fair request that until such time as the new school in Corrandulla is built they would be guaranteed eight teachers. This was sought for many reasons, the principal one being that they would have a teacher for each class. Taking into account the geographical location of the two schools, it would be absolutely impossible if the two schools were amalgamated due to the distance between the two schools for seven teachers to operate the eight classes. That does not demand a wild imagination.

The board of management, the community and I made a very reasonable request to the Department in asking, if until such time as a new school is built, the Department would guarantee that if any member of the present teaching staff left he or she would be replaced. That is a very reasonable request because of the fact that the schools are separated by approximately 250 yards. In a telephone call to the Department last week I was given the impression that if any teacher left in the next 12 months consideration would be given by the Department to the replacement of the teacher. My question was, of course, would that replacement be until such time as a new school is built? I got no response to that question from the person I was speaking to in the Minister's office but I assumed it to be in the affirmative. However, the chairman of the school management board was in the Department the previous day and he subsequently received a letter — which I did not get — of confirmation from which I will quote:

Should a vacancy arise in the 1986-87 school year the Department, in the special circumstances of the school, would give favourable consideration to the appointment of a replacement temporary assistance up until the end of the 1986-87 school year.

That is not acceptable and hence this matter is on the Adjournment of the House tonight. It would be impossible for seven teachers to operate in two separate schools in an amalgamation process. I would ask the Minister to give due consideration to that point. I would ask him to change the ending of that letter, delete "up until the end of the 1986-87 school year" and insert "until the new school in Corrandulla be built". That would resolve the problem regarding amalgamation.

I do not know if any of the teachers are going to leave but if they are I assume they will leave within the year. The school management board asked that the term should be within three years but I think they would be satisified if they were guaranteed an eight-teacher school until the new school is built. I know the Minister is a reasonable person and understands what I am saying. I hope he will respond accordingly because there is a great deal of hysteria being generated in the parish. I am sorry to say there is much division in the community over this issue, because people are confused. There are many people waiting for the Minister's response tonight and I hope he makes it in a very positive way, so that the matter will be closed.

I would like to go on then to the second matter. I wrote a letter to the Department as early as last February listing five points in a letter to which I asked the Minister to respond. The second matter raised was if amalgamation takes place, taking into account that we are in two separate grounds and two separate townlands, would the Department consider giving an allocation of money for the girls' school to have a boys' toilet provided? This is a natural, normal requirement. I also asked if in the boy's school we could have a girls' toilet. It is as simple as that. I know that a certain Deputy in our county got his lines crossed and thought we were being given a big extension to the Corrandulla National School. I suppose it was given by a hint or a nod or a wink. Obviously, he did not know the real problems of Corrandulla, and hence he ran off to press thinking he had a great scoop. In fact, he found out the scoop was not what he thought it was and he got into rather stormy waters over it. But that is the reality of the problem.

The strange thing is that the Minister we have here tonight wrote a letter to the board of management. I was not afforded the courtesy of getting it myself, even though I made representations about it I suppose it will come in another week's time. I would like to make the point that the Minister was apparently confused also because he granted one of the toilets and he did not grant the other. I would like him to clear the air on that matter: I do not want to make a joke of it. It is a serious matter. You cannot have the boys and girls in one school having toilets and only the girls in the other, or vice versa.

The other burning question is the matter of the building of the new school in Corrandulla itself. We were told here last year that there were no plans and no application had been made for that school. The statement to me by the then Minister, Deputy Creed — I quote from the Seanad Report of that time — states clearly that no application had been made. That was denied vigorously by the board of management and by many responsible people in Corrandulla. I am afraid I have to believe the people of Corrandulla against the Minister because some mix-up has happened in the Department, or they have become confused. When I think about the confusion regarding the toilets, I would not be surprised. I would like that matter to be clarified now. Is there, or is there not an application for a new amalgamated school for boys and girls in Corrandulla? It is badly needed. There was a time last year when the children were taught in the local hall up on the stage. I thought it was a bit too much that in 1985 such a situation would obtain in this country at all, much less in Corrandulla, such a renowned parish.

Next there is the question of playgrounds. It might not be a very important question now, taking into account the serious situation as regards amalgamation, but it is nonetheless very important to have playing facilities for the children. I hope the Department will include, when they are building the new school, a complete facility for a community which is on the environs of Galway city. The population is growing rapidly in that parish and I believe only the best is adequate for the people. Generally speaking, that is a normal request for any public representative to make on behalf of any school anywhere in this country. They are as much entitled to it there as they are in any other place. I hope that the Minister will give serious consideration to that request.

It should not be — and I say this honestly — the job of politicians to have to come to the Oireachtas to press for a response to such needs. I am absolutely amazed that the Department would have allowed this situation to develop to the present stage. I know from the indications I get from talking to the officials in the Department that they are probably in a slightly confused state as regards the whole operation. Different messages, it seems, are being sent but in order to bring it all to a point and to clarify the whole situation the Minister should give us the amalgamation so that work can start. We must remember if we do not get the OK from the Minister tonight, amalgamation cannot start in 1986, because planning permission has to be obtained. That is a two months programme at least.

I would appreciate if the Minister would take it upon himself tonight to allow the amalgamation to start in 1986; it was promised in 1985. If he could make that announcement tonight this matter would be clarified and it would bring to an end the politicising of the circumstances in a parish that is in need of so much and particularly from the schooling point of view. The parish is well known to the Minister himself personally and he knows what I am talking about. I want to thank him for coming here tonight and I want to thank you a Chathaoirligh for allowing me the time.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Mr. Kenny)

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús mo bhuíochas a ghlacadh leis an Seanadóir Killilea as ucht é seo a chur ar an gclár. Bí cinnte go n-inseoidh mé go díreach an fhírinne faoin fhadhb seo.

I want to say at the outset we deal in the primary section with many schools throughout the country. The problems vary from school to school. Many are in a state of completion. Many are nearing completion; some are near tender and some have various problems related to them. Corrandulla, as I am well aware, is about 12 miles from Galway city and is in the Archdiocese of Tuam. There are two primary schools there; one serves girls and the other boys. They are about 150 yards apart, separated by a cemetary and by a building owned by the Franciscans. Growth in enrolments enabled the creation of new teaching posts in recent years, so that there are now four teachers in each school. The boys' school was built in 1947. It is a three-classroom building. The fourth teacher is housed in a general purposes room which was added in 1978 as a result of representations having been made over the previous period.

The girls' school was built about 1930 and is also a three-classroom building. A pre-fabricated building was provided to accommodate the fourth class in 1985. In that year £18,000 was spent on accommodation and repairs to the school and substantial grant towards the cost was sanctioned by the Department. Over the years, the Department of Education had proposed the amalgamation of the two schools in the educational interest of the pupils. These proposals did not find favour with the management and parents. In April 1985 the boards of management indicated that all parties concerned now favoured amalgamation. The target date of 2 September, 1985 did not prove possible in view of some practical difficulties that arose and amalgamation was postponed until after the Christmas holidays, 1985. Subsequently, at the request of the chairperson of the board of management it was agreed that amalgamation be further deferred until the start of the 1986-87 school year.

The general conditions governing school amalgamation or reorganisation provide for the retention of one teacher more than the enrolments would normally allow. This concession applies only to staff serving at the time of amalgamation. If, after amalgamation, a teacher retires, resigns or dies, the concession ceases and such a teacher can be replaced only if warranted by the normal pupil-teacher ratio. In this case there would be about 220 pupils in the amalgamated school at the start. This would normally support a staff of seven teachers. There are at present eight teachers between the two schools. Under the special concession I have referred to we could retain all eight teachers for as long as the average daily enrolment of all the pupils for the preceeding year did not fall below 210. But should any vacancy in the staff occur an average enrolment of 245 would be necessary to allow and sanction a replacement.

In a question tabled for answer today in Dáil Éireann, in which a guarantee was sought for the employment of eight teachers over the next five years as part of the amalgamation of Corrandulla schools, the Minister for Education replied that the appointment and retention of teachers in amalgamated schools are subject to regulations which are of general application and that it was not possible therefore to give the assurances sought in regard to staffing over the five year period. That remains the position. I recognise, of course, that there may be some difficulty and inconvenience in the matter of school organisation where a school is conducted in separate buildings at some distance removed but this could not be accepted as warranting a departure from the requirements of the rules for national schools.

If it were possible to make an exception for, say, one year, it would mean that instead of effecting savings by suppressing a post, as the rules would require, we would have a surplus teacher in the school until the next vacancy occurred. This might not happen for several years at a salary average cost of about £14,000 per year. While a specially favourable pupil-teacher ratio would be to the educational benefit of the pupils in Corrandulla or in any school it has to be borne in mind that the primary purpose of the concession is to safeguard the posts of the local teachers involved in amalgamation and to facilitate the amalgamation. It is already quite generous; so no limit is set on the length of time that a surplus teacher may be continued in the central school provided the appropriate retention average is maintained for the previous school year. The expense involved is quite considerable and the present request would make it much more so. A very undesirable precedent would be set as word of the Corrandulla concession would spread through the managers and teachers unions. It would then become a basic condition of local agreement in any other amalgamation case. To concede it in these cases would be very costly and would require Department of Finance sanction, as the Senator is well aware. In this context it would have to be borne in mind that while amalgamations are mainly for educational reasons, financial savings can accrue from them so that they are to be encouraged both from the financial point of view and from the educational point of view.

Special circumstances have been pleaded. Senator Killilea has made a case which would militate against amalgamation. The fact that the two school buildings are 100 yards or more apart could make for some difficulty in the immediate aftermath of amalgamation. This, of itself, would not however, justify a departure from the general requirements of the rules for national schools. However, it is fairly normal official procedure, where a school loses a teacher during the school year and a successor cannot be appointed, to consider representations from the school management for a temporary appointment until the end of the school year in order to avoid undue disruption of classes in mid-term. Each application is naturally considered on its merits and in the light of a special report from the inspector. Such a concession would fall far short of what is demanded for Corrandulla but, realistically, is the most that could be granted even if it proves so unacceptable that it might jeopardise the amalgamation.

Senator Killilea has referred to the necessity for facilities with regard to toilet blocks. I have examined this matter carefully because it deserves careful examination. The Senator may take it for granted that I am aware that the amalgamation will naturally necessitate building work at both schools, especially with the provision of toilets in what were previously single sex buildings. The Department have now authorised in very clear English that a boys' toilet block will be provided in the girls' school and a girls' toilet block will be provided in the boys' school. I have personally signed the letter to the good Senator and to his colleagues, authorising sanction of this. He should have it for his own good use in the Corrandulla area within a short time.

Mr. Killilea

I am sure you have it already.

Mr. Kenny

I am not aware of the postal regulations in Galway but Senator Killilea was Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and I understand that he was quite adept at particular deliveries in certain areas of the county and he is well aware of the procedures in these matters.

The amalgamation will proceed on the basis of the physical buildings being provided in terms of toilet blocks in 1986. The amalgamation could not proceed if the toilet blocks were not provided. I am aware of the desire of the boards of management in both areas. In fact I met representatives of one of the boards of management some time ago when they came to me in a neighbouring town about the new school in Corrandulla.

My predecessor, Deputy Creed, stated in the House here that a new building would be the ideal solution. On 10 July, 1985, he said:

Ideally there should be a new building with modern furniture and equipment but the practicalities of the situation, such as the acquisition of a suitable site and the time necessary for the preparation of plans and contract documents would not allow the immediate achievement of that objective.

I do not think he stated in the House that an application was not received. An application is before the Department. I can assure Senator Killilea and his parliamentary colleagues that there will be no hindrance on that new application, at least until it comes to the time for allocation of tenders and I would hope that the works that have to be gone through at the various stages would be proceeded with as quickly as possible in that area.

Mr. Killilea

When might they build it?

Mr. Kenny

They will build it as soon as the contract is placed.

Mr. Killilea

When will that be?

Mr. Kenny

I cannot answer that until the various stages have gone through. But no doubt the Senator will have ample opportunity to raise it by way of a Seanad motion again or have some other people raise it in the Dáil. He is free to contact us.

Mr. Killilea

I might be able to raise it in the Dáil soon.

Mr. Kenny

He might even be answering it: I am sure he would like that if he got the opportunity. I will take him back to his remark about when happiness comes — that might be a long way off.

We will be able to deal with the application for Corrandulla National School on its merits. It is a priority case from the point of view of staff, parents and management. To have two buildings 100 yards apart is not an ideal solution from an educational point of view or from a practical point of view. The application will receive proper consideration. In the meantime it would be my hope that the amalgamation would proceed. The authorisation given for the provision of the physical buildings in respect of the toilet blocks has been confirmed officially. I trust that work will proceed as soon as possible.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5 June 1986.