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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jun 1986

Vol. 113 No. 8

Urban Renewal Bill, 1986: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

I would like to say that in this and the previous section and some following sections we are dealing with designated areas, which is an important part of the Bill. I do feel, personally, that before I could speak in any meaningful way regarding designated areas, it would be necessary not alone to examine the development plans in the corporation offices but also to examine the actual situation on the ground. Unfortunately, I did not have an opportunity of doing so because of the time constraints. I am sure I could say in passing that many Senators would have the same problem. When people are critical of the role of Senators, this is something that should be taken into consideration. With the amount of legislation that is coming before us at the present time — all important legislation — it is not possible to have enough time to give to all these important statutes.

I would also like to say, in relation to amendments which I tabled for this section, that I appreciate your courtesy in informing me by letter yesterday that Nos. 1 and 2 were out of order. This was mainly due to the time problem because I only had the weekend to table these amendments. There was not sufficient time to check that everything was in order in the way I would like. Possibly if I had more time, I could frame the amendments in such a way that they might not necessarily be out of order. Nevertheless, I hope the Minister, when I make passing references to these now, will favour the spirit in which they are intended.

I would like to express thanks for the very helpful maps which were made available to us in the Library through the courtesy of the Minister. Although I did not get time to examine the designated areas, I did spend a short period in the Custom House Docks area, which I felt was most important. I am also very grateful to Mr. Kealy who, without notice, facilitated me for a short while in looking around that area.

With regard to the rates situation and the remission over ten years, the Minister told us that there will be a full remission of rates for ten years on new buildings constructed in a designated area between 23 October 1985 and 31 May 1989, and full remission of the rates on any increase in the valuation of enlarged or improved buildings. Under this section the Minister for Finance may make a scheme providing for the remission in whole or in part of rates leviable in respect of premises in the Custom House Docks area and in any of the other designated areas. I would like to ask the Minister specifically in this regard would it not have been possible to include in the Bill the specific details regarding the length of time and the amount of rates which would be remitted? In other words, by not having it in the Bill, is it possible that at some time this could be varied? Will it be necessary to bring this in in other legislation?

It is normally done like this. The Minister may make a scheme with regard to rates remissions as soon as the Bill is passed. As soon as the Bill is passed, the scheme will be made. As indicated last night with regard to further designated areas that can be done only on the basis that we, under this provision, can give rates remission only. I explained that last night. That is as far as our terms of reference go. If we wanted to change the financial arrangements, that would mean an amendment of the Finance Act. I indicated quite clearly that there was no intention to do that or that was not a proposal. The Bill was published on 25 March and maps were lodged in the Library then. It is a reasonable time for Members of both Houses to examine the various proposals. I understand also the time constraints that there are on public representatives, particularly Senators. We believe that we gave reasonable time for discussion and gave Members an opportunity to look at all aspects of the Bill. With regard to the rates remissions, they are clearly and only applicable to the areas that are designated. The actual areas are set out quite clearly in the Schedule to the Finance Bill, which states, nearly road by road, what they are. Only those will qualify for both the tax breaks and the rate remissions.

I want to be clear about my comments on the time constraints. I am not at all critical of the Minister in this regard. I am simply saying this is an important Bill. It would be necessary before anyone could speak in a meaningful way about this to examine it in very considerable detail. I am simply saying from my own point of view, I did not have the time to do that. I realise that the Bill is an important Bill and the time factor is also important. I am not complaining in any way about the lack of time. When this Bill came before the House we seemed to have a number of other very important Bills at the same time.

With regard to amendment No. 1, which was out of order, could I ask if the Minister could, in some way, cope with the spirit of the amendment or if it would be helpful as regards the Bill that he should do so? In the 1981 Finance Act, section 23, as I understand it is concerned with residential areas, houses and flats. This is an area that many Members of the House have said should be encouraged. In respect of the floor area of houses and flats, there is a limitation — I am not saying that in itself is wrong or that I disagree with it. With regard to the Custom House Docks area there is freedom for the planners there. I would like to refer in particular to the proposal to bring people back to live in the designated areas, apart from the Custom House Docks area. Many people might feel that area might not be suitable for the municipal type buildings. With regard to the other areas, would the Minister not feel that perhaps some freedom should be allowed to developers with regard to these specific areas, with regard to the floor areas and with regard to other matters which were dealt with in this very considerable section 23 of the 1981 Finance Act? If the Minister did so feel, would it be possible for him or for the Minister for Finance to issue an order making that variation or making it possible to have that variation?

I want to make the point, a Chathaoirligh, that you ruled these out and I do not want to get into debate on these points but just as a passing reference the answer is no you cannot vary financial measures by order. It would have to be done by an amendment to the Finance Act.

The Senator is entitled to talk about them. He is not entitled to put in an amendment. He made a passing reference to a passing reference and I am prepared to be lenient enough to him.

May I just make one further passing reference to my amendment No. 2? I feel that in these areas where rates are concerned they will benefit the commercial buildings and concerns of that nature. We are trying to encourage people to come and reside in those areas. I am not sure — and again it was something I did not have an opportunity of checking over the weekend — whether a waiver might be considered or whether a charge for services might be considered as rates? I was simply attempting in this amendment to give in this regard to dwellings an incentive which apparently is not there though there is such incentive for every other type of premises. There will be a waiver of rates for the ten year period. I wonder if it would be possible in some way or whether the Minister would consider it to be desirable, to provide a waiver in order to bring some kind of balance to the situation which would give the incentive with regard to the development of residential property.

I am not too clear on what the Senator is at and whether he is referring to a waiver for service charges. Is he referring to a waiver for the local authority main service charges?

I am talking about an incentive to local authorities for the supply of services such as water and sewerage to a site.

In the Dublin area, as of now, service charges do not operate. I want to make that clear. They do not operate in the Dublin area.

Collection of garbage and that kind of thing.

No. Not in the Dublin area.

There is one further part in subsection (6) regarding evaluation where there is a problem with apportioning this and where a valuation has not been completed. The Commissioner of Valuation may, on the application of the local authority within whose functional area the premises are situated, apportion to the premises such parts as he thinks proper of the rateable valuation of the property in which the premises are situated. My experience where valuation is concerned, and particularly of new buildings, is that many people might not be satisfied there is provision for an appeal within a certain time. I want to ask the Minister in this situation if there is provision for an appeal where somebody might not be satisfied?

The normal appeal arrangements apply.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 8.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 6, subsection (2), line 34, to delete "four" and substitute "not less than six nor more than ten."

The intention is that the authority shall consist of a chairman and four ordinary members. My amendment is to delete four and substitute "not less than six nor more than ten". I do not want to make any long issue out of this. I know that it has been debated in the other House. I have a fair idea of the Minister's viewpoint. Nevertheless the authority are intended more or less as an executive to see that this work is carried out. The Minister obviously feels that the smaller number will be best in this regard. I feel that four is too small a number. I feel that to give some scope within the numbers that I suggest, six and ten, would be better. It should be attempted to get, on this authority, people with experience in different areas. From the experience we have gained here on committees I could not envisage any satisfactory situation with a chairman and four members. Anybody would agree that increasing the number above four must be beneficial and must bring in experience and viewpoints and widen the whole scope of the authority. Four is an arbitrary figure. The case could be made that by having a smaller number or by having just the one individual it would be far more straightforward to get the work completed. The number is too small and it would be to the benefit of the Bill if the Minister would agree to leave some scope for increasing that number if he is not prepared to accept the amendment.

I am glad the Senator knows my mind with regard to the numbers. I take his point. Whatever figure one arrives at one can argue whether it should or should not be so. I remember somebody indicated once that his idea of a committee would be a committee of three. The reason he had three was on the basis that one would be out sick sometimes or one would be on holidays. That was the basis of the committee of three. What we are talking about here, as indicated by the Senator, is an executive committee or an executive board charged with moving and getting on with the development and planning. In that they will have recourse to calling in or employing consultants or expertise from the local authority, or whatever. They will have a wide remit in doing that. There will be no question of the board being the only people whose ideas will be taken into account. As broad a view as possible will be obtainable.

What I would like to see is a sharp edged board with people who are involved in that kind of development. It is a huge site and is a development that was never undertaken in this city. The local authorities admit this. It requires the kind of methods we are using. We need a small board giving them reasonably wide powers outside the Planning Act so that they can proceed to encourage and develop ideas. By having a tight knit, small board I believe we would achieve what we want. I understand the Senator's point of view as well. It is just that I favour this approach. We have thought about it and I believe that will achieve what we want. There will be a total of five members on a board. When you think of what we are about, developing a 27 acre site, it is enough. If we had any more than that, argument and disagreement would come into it. I believe our approach is the right one. I am afraid I cannot accept this particular amendment.

I realised the Minister would not accept the amendment because I understand his mind on this, in other words, I read the report in the other House where the Bill was debated at some length and got an insight into what the Minister said. While I agree that tight knit membership of this kind has its advantages and that it may be the result in making faster progress and fewer disputes I do not think that different points of view should be ignored.

The Minister talks about this area as a jewel. We all hope it will turn out to be that. While, as they say in architectural jargon, time is of the essence, a small membership would possibly be helpful in this regard, nevertheless I feel time spent in discussing the scheme, in coming to conclusions and considering options, is not time wasted. I simply say that four people and a chairman will, the Minister says, be a tight knit membership. I do not have any great experience of committees except in this House but I feel, by increasing the number, it is bound to bring in other points of view. There are bound to be more questions asked and a more critical approach adopted. While I agree with the Minister that the authority will be dependent on the input of professionals nevertheless to argue from that point of view is in my estimation to downgrade the authority. That could also be said if there was only a chairman and that the line taken will be strictly the line suggested by the professional people and the experts. I would not accept that point of view. The authority will have to make decisions and stand on their own feet apart from the reports they get from professionals. It is a pity a larger number were not included on the authority.

I want to make it quite clear that while the board is a board of five members the whole consultation process is important. It is not a question of this board putting up a plan and that being the end of the matter. That is not the case. First of all, they must take into account the draft development plan. They must also take into account any observations which the local authority make or indeed that the general public might make. They do not have to take it on board but they have to take account of it. Then it goes to the Minister and he may vary the plan. There is the consultation process. The planning authority have a consultative role in all of this as do the public if they wish to participate. There is then the Minister. It is not a question of giving all power to a small board. Basically, while the board is small, it is a board that will be able to get things moving pretty quickly and come back with the proposals, which will then go into the whole consultation process. That is where you will see whatever changes and disagreements there are coming to the fore.

I want to make the case quite clearly that there is no question of any small board operating as some sort of dictatorial unit, that they come up with a plan and it does not go beyond that. That is not the way it is envisaged, as is clearly indicated in the Bill. The smaller board is for efficiency, to be sharp and get things moving because of the size and the kind of development we are talking about.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 6, between lines 35 and 36, to insert the following new subsection:

"( ) At least one of the ordinary members shall be a person nominated by the Dublin City Manager."

The city manager and the corporation have a very important role. Senator McMahon went into some detail regarding the undemocratic aspect of this where the power is taken out of their hands. I would be very sympathetic in that regard as well. If it were possible I would like to see the Dublin City Manager involved in that authority but clearly that would not be possible.

The corporation have a very important role to play here. It might seem that it is because of their failure that this Bill is necessary. In reality it is not the failure of the corporation. With regard to the development plan it is simply a matter of zoning and considering applications which are made to the corporation for planning permission. As I said on Second Stage the problem with development plans is that the local authority do not have any power or any obligation to see the development plan completed. It is only a matter of ensuring really that development which takes place does not contravene the development plan.

With regard to the other Bill which the Minister has mentioned, the Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission Bill, which I warmly welcome, it seems that this area is taken out of the hands of the corporation and the city manager. I would like to see the situation where the corporation would be actively involved, because while the Minister says it will be necessary to consult with the corporation and to have regard to the development plan there will be no obligation on the authority to incorporate in the plan anything the corporation might suggest. They could take a completely different line.

I agree that the Minister will have the final say. With regard to a plan which is finalised and obviously at that time will have taken a long period to bring to that stage, it would not be possible for the Minister to make changes except in minor detail. Clearly, at an early stage, the authority will have to decide on the specific role and line they are taking and where the commitments are. From that point of view and from the point of view of involving the corporation and the city manager in this very important area, if the Minister is not prepared to accept this amendment a way should be found for the city manager to be actively involved in some particular area.

I appreciate that the intention behind this amendment is to strengthen the involvement of the Dublin Corporation in the development of the site. The approach of appointing a nominee of a city manager would be wrong. When we are talking about an ordinary member are we talking about a member of the city council? If we are, under the Bill members of the local authority are excluded from being members of the authority. As the corporation have an input in a consultative role regarding the drawing up of the scheme and with regard to the development plan, the ordinary member might be compromised. If he is on the statutory body but is in conflict with his own authority, whether it is in relation to the general plan or some contravention of the draft development plan or whatever, there would be problems. That is the reason I do not think it would be wise to accept this amendment. The city manager cannot be a member of the board. He could not be a member of the local authority who exercise the right over the draft development plan and the planning authority and then be involved in another planning authority as well. That could cause conflict. I cannot accept the amendment on the grounds I have stated; that an ordinary member of the council is prohibited from being on the board under the Bill and that an ordinary member could find himself compromised if he were on the statutory body.

I cannot see any compromise in a situation where, for example, the city manager would have the right to nominate an individual to have a particular concern from the corporation's point of view. I am not totally clear on the exact functions of the authority. A scheme will be decided on; the content of the scheme as regards the balance of housing in the commercial areas will be decided on. I am not sure if the authority will also be responsible for some of the construction work. I assume they will not, apart from the infrastructure and the roads etc.

The result of this Bill will be that this 27 acre site will be developed. We all hope it will be a great success. In any event, it will be handed over to the corporation at that stage. It is a pity that with this jewel, as the Minister referred to it, which the corporation will have to take over after a certain period, it will be done without any direct input by Dublin Corporation. While the Minister says that the corporation will be consulted and that he will have the last word, taking everything into consideration — the initial scheme, the difficulty in varying a scheme — once a definite line is taken, except in peripheral areas it will be very hard to change that. The corporation should have a direct input into that scheme quite apart from being consulted because there is no bite in consultation. I feel, as far as consultation is concerned, there is zoning and the development plan for that area already, so presumably it will be simply on those lines. I accept that this amendment in the Minister's view might not make any improvement to the Bill. The one great problem in this country is to have an input from ordinary people. Would the Minister not feel that the Dublin City Manager and the corporation should have a direct input at all stages of this scheme.

A number of questions were asked. The Senator questioned what the authority are all about. The authority on their establishment will publicly invite submissions from any interested parties including Dublin Corporation. The authority will also undertake whatever research, discussion or other inquiries appear to them to be necessary to assess the best manner in which the site should be developed. The authority will prepare and publish a draft of a planning scheme for the site which will indicate the authority's view on how the site should best be developed. All interested parties, and Dublin Corporation in particular, will be invited to comment on the draft scheme.

The authority will review it and if appropriate amend the draft planning scheme, make a formal scheme and submit it to the Minister for approval. A copy of the scheme made by the authority will be sent to Dublin Corporation. In consideration of the scheme the Minister will be required to take account of any objection made within one month by Dublin Corporation. The Minister may approve or modify the scheme as made by the authority. The individual development projects which are in accordance with the planning scheme will not require planning permission in the normal way. The variations of the planning scheme will be subject to the same procedures as the making of the original scheme.

The corporation have, in my view, a reasonable input into all of this. It is quite clear that they have a role to play. The authority may, if they wish, second members of Dublin Corporation planning department to act as consultants and planners within this. That is not ruled out at all. We should not always think that the planning authority are sacrosanct in what they do. We are all aware that the same planning authority gave permission for a very over-developed use of this particular site a number of years ago. The Senator talks about what is in the best interest but I believe we are getting a reasonable balance. We are not excluding the local authority from making their point of view. Any statutory body with a sense of responsibility would have to take into account any suggestions from the planning authority. The scheme as proposed is in the best interests of the city and having had discussions with the planning authority about this matter I know they are quite happy with the role they will have in it. They do not feel excluded or isolated in any way.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 7, subsection (1), between lines 34 and 35, to insert the following:

"(c) In performing the functions assigned to it, the authority shall, as far as practicable, maintain a balance, not only within its functional area but in relation to development plans for contiguous areas, as between housing, industrial, commercial, social, amenity and other development."

This amendment was taken from the 1982 urban renewal legislation. It is a good one. It will be necessary to maintain that balance not only within the area to be developed but also with regard to the development of the entire city. For that reason this amendment should be incorporated in the Bill so that there will be no doubt about the kind of balance and development that is envisaged. While the Minister is critical of the planning authority I am sure he would agree that in many areas this balance has not been established. The Bill would be improved by the inclusion of this amendment.

I am not too happy with this amendment because I am not sure what its effect would be. For example, it might require the authority to prepare a planning scheme which contained all of the elements mentioned. This would reduce the planning scheme to an almost mathematical exercise. It would also undermine the ability of the authority to respond to the views of Dublin Corporation or, indeed, other interested parties in relation to the overall planning scheme. I do not see a lot of merit in establishing an authority to prepare a planning scheme and provide for an elaborate process of consultation and ministerial approval if the authority are to be handcuffed even before they addressed themselves to the problem. The authority will have no function whatsoever in the contiguous areas so they will not have an input of those areas. It is important that we are as open as possible on this if we want to see a low density and open plan development.

I would have no objection to the issue of general policy directives under subsection (6) along the general lines of the amendment. When an authority are formed we will have to give them some broad parameters to work on. We cannot handcuff them totally because it is their job to plan. If we write too many restrictions regarding them into the Bill we are really handcuffing them but if we issue general directives they will have to take those directives into account in the formation of any plan. That plan has to go back to the Minister who has issued the directives.

There is a wide safeguard in all of this and I am reasonably happy that the way in which we are framing the legislation is the better way rather than handcuff the authority by telling them that they must adhere to certain restrictions. A general directive to the authority saying that, broadly, such and such is the kind of development we would like to see on this site and they having to plan it and then market it is the best approach. There is no shortage of planning schemes but they must ensure that it is a marketable project. The authority will have to bear this in mind in any development. Writing constraints into legislation can have inhibiting effects on possible developers, not that the developers will call the shots in this but they may look at the legislation and say that there are too many restrictions and they are not interested in looking at the site. I do not want that to happen. There are enough safeguards in this Bill to ensure a good planning development on this particular site and this is what the Senator is looking for. He wants to see a good planned development on this site. We all want that. I believe the way we are doing it is the best approach.

I am happy enough with the power the Minister has. He mentioned the issuing of a general directive. With regard to the contiguous areas, where the Minister says the authority will not have any power, I had in mind when I drafted this amendment that it would not be a case of including housing, industrial, commercial, social amenity and other development in some kind of mechanical arrangement but that we would have regard not only to the area and the requirements of it but to the development which is there at the moment in the bordering areas. I hope when directives are issued that they will be in a very general way and that they will not constrain the authority in any way.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 9 agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That section 10 stand part of the Bill."

Subsection (4) proposes that:

The chairman and ordinary members of the Authority shall be paid by the Authority such remuneration (if any) and allowances for expenses as the Minister with the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, determines.

Why is "if any" included here because it seems clear that it would be possible to get the membership of the authority which would be necessary without remuneration. Does the Minister not feel that it will be necessary to remunerate the authority and to provide allowances and expenses?

It will be necessary but the parliamentary draftsmen felt that if we did not state that the Minister should fix the remuneration and allowances for members they might not be paid at all. We put it in to ensure that they are paid.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed: "That section 11 stand part of the Bill."

I have two questions with regard to this section. Subsection (3) states:

The quorum for a meeting of the Authority shall be three or such other number as may from time to time be fixed by the Minister.

Where there is such a small authority the Minister will not have any great choice in this regard. Could the Minister, for example, change the quorum to two? A quorum of three should be the absolute minimum. My other question relates to subsection (7) which states:

Subject to subsection (3), the Authority may act notwithstanding a vacancy among its members.

Is there any provision for filling vacancies within a certain time? What would happen if there were two or more vacancies? This subsection refers to one vacancy.

Vacancies can be filled at any time. There is no question about that. The Minister may decide from time to time to change the quorum. He might decide that a meeting of the authority to approve a planning scheme for submission to the Minister would require a higher quorum. In other words, the Minister might decide that full membership is required to approve such a plan. For ordinary meetings, the quorum shall be three. Given that the board is an executive one I accept that three out of five is a reasonable number to attend board meetings. However, when finalising plans it might be necessary that the full board be present rather than have a quorum of three and that is why we have included the provision.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 10, between lines 30 and 31, to insert the following:

"(e) take account of the existing character of, and any features of historical, architectural, archaeological or other special interest in its functional area."

It is necessary to underline the importance of conservation in any legislation. This amendment would improve the Bill.

The only buildings of any character in the Custom House docks site is Stack A and the vaults. There is no question about the intention to preserve these. Stack A is a listed building but beyond that the buildings on this site are not what could be called beautiful pieces of architecture. However, because of the character of Stack A and the vaults we feel they should be retained and we intend to bring that to the attention of the authority.

I am satisfied with that.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 10, between lines 39 and 40, to insert the following:

"(a) the scheme will have regard to the requirements for Development Plans, Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, Part III, Sections 19 to 23, including the Third Schedule.

(b) before the Minister approves any scheme a scaled model of the proposal shall be put on public display for a period of not less than one month and full consideration shall be given by him to any objections or submissions made within a further period of not less than one month."

This is in relation to development plans for local authorities. The authority will have a very free hand. While I do not disagree with that, there should be some kind of springboard or datum level to start off with. Sections 19-23 of the 1963 Act and the Third Schedule set out the objectives which a local authority may strive to achieve in its development plan. This amendment would be helpful with regard to the development of this area and, therefore, the Minister might consider including it in the Bill.

I fail to see the relevance of the requirements proposed in part (a) of the amendment to the scheme proposed in the Bill. The provisions referred to deal with general obligations of local planning authorities as regards the making, contents and review of their departments' plans and general objectives for their area which may be included in the development plan. These requirements relate specifically to a broad range of factors which must be considered by the planning authority in making a develpment plan for their whole area. In this Bill we are talking about making a plan for a small scheme.

Many aspects of the Third Schedule of the 1963 Act are irrelevant to this site. Section 12 provides in some detail what the planning scheme for the site should contain and the interests which must be taken into account. I am happy that this format is the most appropriate one for the scheme and will cover adequately all points which, I am sure, is the intention behind the Senator's amendment. The second part of the amendment requires that a scale model of the planning scheme be out on display.

With regard to part (a) of the amendment I agree with what the Minister says but I feel that although this is a localised proposal it will be important for the whole area. I realise that the Minister will have power to issue guidelines and I accept that.

With regard to part (b) of the amendment, a scaled model of a considerable area of the city was prepared for Lichfield's proposal before 1962. Drawings are not very helpful for people who are not in the habit of reading drawings. Indeed, many who are in the habit of reading drawings do not always comprehend them. There is only one way to get people interested in the proposal and that is by preparing a scaled model. As regards areas of Dublin which have been developed and are now the subject of criticism, for example, Wood Quay, if scaled models had been put on display showing the way these areas would turn out, people would have objected in a stronger manner. Some of them did object rather strongly and rightly so. In an effort to get the people involved a scaled model should be prepared, when the drawings are completed and when everything is ready, for the Minister's consideration. It may take a little extra time to do that but it would be well worthwhile. By putting it on display for a period of one month, all the people who are interested could examine it and make suggestions.

I have said before on many occasions that it is surprising how ordinary people, if there are such people, can have a great insight into matters which might not be considered to be relevant to them. In relation to housing schemes I have heard men digging with spades and shovels make suggestions which the person in charge of a scheme would be proud of. What I am saying to the Minister is please give people who cannot read plans an opportunity to contribute. It is one amendment that the Minister should agree to include.

I see a lot of merit in what the Senator said about having a scaled model prepared for illustration purposes, as long as it is clearly understood that it is not a definitive plan. Scaled plans are a good idea. When I see them I always admire the lovely job but when I see the finished product I am never as impressed. The Senator talked about building on a particular quay. There was a scaled model of that on view to the public. There was not any great hassle at the time about the actual building but we see the general furore about it now. However, in issuing a directive to the authority, I will ensure that this suggestion forms part of it. The way to do it would be to have a scaled model on the site for people to see.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That section 12 stand part of the Bill."

This section is the nub of the Bill, the really important and critical part of it. I thank the Cathaoirleach who allowed me in my Second Stage speech to deal, very strictly within the confines of the planning scheme under this section, with Le Corbusier and the other architectural historians that I quoted. We should learn from the costly lessons of the past. What I wanted to say really was condensed in one part of my contribution where I quoted from Utopia on Trial, Vision and Reality in Planned Housing, London Shipman, 1985 which stated:

...most of the design features that have failed our tests prove, in retrospect, to stem from this Utopian vision. He was fundamentally right in one respect — that design can affect the character of a community — but whether the effect will be good or ill is something that can only be determined from factual evidence. Creativity is not enough. It should also be rooted in reality....

The central point I want to make was that creativity will not be enough. Neither will flair nor ingenuity. Realism is necessary. With regard to the scheme for this site — I am speaking of the 27 acres — it seems unlikely that housing can be fitted into it. We can fit houses and offices into many inner city areas. The suggestion has been made with regard to this area that we provide an entertainment complex which would have a cultural influence. I am sure that is something that should be considered, something along the lines of the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen which attract visitors from many countries. We have no major centre of that nature. Perhaps with regard to the docks area we could include a maritime museum. The idea of a museum which would be relevant to the walled area of the city was discussed in great detail. Something on the lines of the Pompidou centre in Beaubourg, Paris, for the performing arts which attracts visitors and is stimulating for the city, could be considered. Of course, there are developments such as Disneyland which attracts large numbers.

The vast bulk of the site we are talking of was zoned for industrial use. The Amiens Street strip and the ramp up to Connolly Station would seemingly preclude residential development. In this section there is only an obligation to consult Dublin Corporation. I would prefer if there was some greater input by the corporation and if they ensured that no encouragement was given to build offices across the street. Anything that could be built anywhere else in the city must not be built on this site.

There should not be too much emphasis on what is known as municipal housing because we have that all around us. With regard to the development the Minister spoke about, it is generally felt it is possible to have a six storey development in some areas before running into trouble. Of course, great care is necessary in the Custom House area. The Minister referred to a scheme which had eight storeys in parts. I recall that it was decided that no other building as high as Liberty Hall would be allowed in that area. Yet afterwards Irish Life got permission for a building 14 storeys high, almost directly opposite the Custom House. The Minister said that there is an interesting old warehouse there, the Crimean, where a banquet was held to celebrate the end of the war of the same name. I am glad that it may be considered desirable to retain that building.

It is important to think big. Without doing that we cannot achieve the success we want. When something is done properly it is appreciated. There are very many examples. Everything connected with DART was done well and I am not just talking about the carriages and engines. A new image was created and the public response was good. A large amount of money was very well spent on the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham. The private toll bridge linking Ringsend with the North Wall built by the Roche concern is commendable. As regards most of the inner city housing development, even though it might have been copied directly from London, I do not condemn it on that account.

Other examples are the parks, and Malahide Castle. Marley Park on the south side of Dublin has a high standard of landscaping and on that account there is very little litter. The Bray Road is pleasant to drive on and looks so good. We have the Powerscourt Centre, an attractive modern shopping complex, and the Irish Life Centre in Abbey Street. Design is important,

The Minister referred to sacrosanct rules. These should not exist. There are many areas where things do not work out. In my own town of Kells — I just mention this in passing — we have a mix of houses and flats for the elderly in the same housing scheme. The case was made by planners that this was the correct thing to do. One of the big headaches public representatives have in relation to elderly people living in those flats is that they complain about the problems they have with young people. The drawing board should be clear to start off with. The basic rule should be applied and that is that function comes first. Aesthetics are important as well but if the functional end is not achieved the whole scheme will be a mistake.

With regard to my amendment about retaining features, it is a basic rule in designing not to interfere with contours and features or to interfere with them as little as possible. This is always a problem. In rural areas the general guidelines are not to interfere with banks, hedges or ditches. People who build houses and develop around them want to have those removed. In the housing scheme in Kells when a beautiful bank and hedge were left as a feature, representations were made to the local authority to have them removed. They were removed unfortunately.

Consultation is very important. Depopulation of the inner city was mentioned. It is easy to get people out and to force them out but I am not sure if it is as easy to get them back. A culture has been lost there.

We do not have costings for this scheme but it would be helpful if we had some. Senator McMahon referred to the Minister's commitment with regard to this Bill. I do not doubt that in any way. When problems arose in the past I could not complain at the reception I got from the Minister. He was always understanding and as helpful as possible. I hope that while the Minister was not able to take on board any of my amendments he will accept them in the spirit in which they were offered. I am very pleased that he accepts the general idea in amendment No. 7. Perhaps in his guidelines he will be able to incorporate the spirit of some of my amendments. I take this opportunity to wish the scheme great success.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 13 to 22, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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