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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 1986

Vol. 115 No. 1

Social Welfare (Appeals Tribunals) Bill, 1986: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It gives me particular pleasure to introduce this Bill, though there is a slight note of scepticism given the way the Department of Social Welfare chose in their recent press release to ignore a Supreme Court judgment about fuel allowances. I am not so sure whether they feel entirely bound by the provisions of the law or not. Nevertheless we will carry on and assume that the law does apply to the Department of Social Welfare the same as it applies everywhere else.

I introduced this Bill in the Seanad because of the enormous number of representations made to me and a considerable number of letters I received from a large number of very concerned groups and organisations. The objective of the Bill is to reform, reorganise and fundamentally improve the system of social welfare appeals. This Bill affects 37 per cent of the population, the one-third of the country that is dependent on social welfare as a source of living. How that one-third, or over a million people, are treated by that social welfare system is, therefore, a matter of considerable importance. The Bill focuses on one area: how a claimant is treated if he or she is refused a claim.

The Bill focuses on the mechanism for the redress of grievances or, as it is properly called, the appeals system. The existing system of appeals is deficient and in many respects it is seriously inadequate. Therefore I have introduced this Bill in the hope of stimulating a response, stimulating consideration of the issue and perhaps increasing the priority given to this issue within the Department of Social Welfare.

The present appeals system was laid down in the 1952 Social Welfare Act, sections 43 and 44 of which state that a person dissatisfied with a decision may appeal to an appeals officer. The appeals officer will make a final and conclusive decision subject to revision by a chief appeals officer if an earlier decision was erroneous by reason of the law or facts. An appeals officer may require a person to give evidence and award expenses. Subsequent regulations were laid down under the Social Welfare Insurance Appeals Regulations 1952, that is, statutory instrument 376/52 and the Social Welfare Assistance Decisions and Appeals Regulations, 1953. These regulations provided for a 21-day time limit on appeals and appeal hearings. An appeals officer is empowered to dismiss the case summarily. Provision was also made for assessors, one employer, one trade union officer to attend employment assistance or benefit appeals. The 1952 Act was subsequently integrated into the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981.

Numerous problems have arisen since this scheme was first introduced. I was extremely disappointed that the previous Minister for Social Welfare asserted early in this session that he was not aware of any serious problems in this area. The best documented case on the widespread nature of the concerns in this issue was in the report of the Coolock Law Centre produced in December 1980 called quite simply, Social Welfare Appeals, Special Report No. 2. The type of problems highlighted were as follows. In the first case, information given for the refusal of a claim was paltry. Cases were documented of people suddenly getting a disqualification notice. The form simply states, “Benefit is not payable on the grounds that you are not available for work.” A case was documented of a woman refused assistance on this basis. She was not told the facts that had led to this decision; she was not told she could bring someone else to the appeals hearing; she was not told the appeals officer had the power to award costs or expenses, important had she wished to have a solicitor. She was not given the opportunity to question the deciding officer; she was invited to sign away her right to have two assessors present at the appeal, without the role of an assessor being explained to her.

Secondly, clear evidence emerged of decisions being taken without due regard to the facts being ascertained. Cases were documented of people refused disability benefit, but of claimants being at a severe disadvantage at their hearings. One woman faced a fitness for work hearing without knowing the evidence arguing that she was fit for work, without her doctor being directly consulted before the ruling was made. Decisions were taken by officers without medical expertise and without independent medical opinion being sought.

These are not exceptional or unusual cases. These cases fit a pattern, not a pattern of wilful oppression but certainly one of neglect, of lack of care for principles of basic justice. It is a system loaded against the claimant from start to finish. It is very hard to argue a case when you are given only cursory information as to why you were refused a claim, no facts for the refusal and only a minimum of information about the nature of the appeals process. That is the social welfare appeals system.

The appeals system for supplementary welfare introduced in 1977 is even more basic. An appellant is simply told he or she has the right to appeal and must hand in his or her reasons to the community welfare officer. Again he or she is not told the reasons for refusal. One person whose case was documented was simply told it was not "policy" to pay towards fuel costs, a legitimate claim under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. How he was expected to formulate a response to this argument mystifies me. If you are told it is not policy, how are you supposed to produce an argument against that fact? It is quite a mystery. His appeal in writing — for there is no right to a hearing on supplementary welfare — would then wind its way to the welfare officer's superior, who would then decide. The duration of SWA appeal is three months.

The speed of an appeal is an extremely important issue. Cases have been documented of social welfare incomes being cut off so that a person could be investigated. It is denied that this happens. From time to time one does receive cases where people get a notice stating that because of this or that their allowance is being cut off and the allegation is being investigated. In one case a person so cut off was told he could appeal if dissatisfied. I refer to the Dáil Official Report of 8 May 1985. For a person's basic income obviously such a suspension can be catastrophic and it cannot be justified. The consequential potential long wait for an appeal can be devastating. It really only involves transferring people from one area of State expenditure to another. If they have no income under social welfare and they have no other income, they go to supplementary welfare and the State ends up paying the money anyway and it becomes a quite meaningless operation.

Just as the information made available to claimants before a hearing is inadequate, so too is the information made available afterwards. Again, according to the Coolock Law Centre report of 1980:

The appellant received only a memorandum of the appeals officer's decision, and he is not permitted to see the actual decision...

This memorandum amounts to a bare statement of rejection or allowances of the appeal and nothing more.

The miniscule information that is supplied to appellants is so tiny as to be offensive.

Robert W. Clarke, in his major study of the social welfare appeals system in "Social Welfare Insurance Appeals", Irish Jurist, vol. XIII, 1978, pages 280-282 points out that the reasons are given on a standard form with what he describes in dry legal language as a “rather cryptic list of alternative reasons... those reasons that are inapplicable are deleted”. Clark argues that this procedure is simply not adequate, either legally or on grounds of natural justice. He pointed to Flick's study of administrative adjudication which argued that reasons had to be provided in detail. A reasoned opinion, presented in detail, was likely to be better thought out. The reasons given would also help the appellant to determine if he had grounds for an ultimate court appeal on a point of law. Reasoning would make appeals more amenable to the supervisory jurisdiction of the courts. Reasoned appeals would encourage public confidence in the appeals process and prevent arbitrary conduct.

Proposals that the system of social welfare appeals be reformed have, I am perfectly certain at this stage, wide support. On 22 September this year, four voluntary organisations, the Free Legal Aid Centres, the Independent Poverty Action Movement, the Simon Community and the Coolock Law Society all proposed a series of administrative reforms in the appeals system. The Free Legal Aid Centres in particular drew attention to the fact that the system of State legal aid did not cover social welfare appeals, thus reducing further the claimant's belief in his or her ability to successfully pursue and appeal.

Regrettably, Government responses to requests to re-examine the appeals system have been slow. I have already adverted to the view of the previous Minister for Social Welfare in this matter. The issues raised by the Irish Jurist and by the Coolock Law Centre did not lead to a reasoned departmental or ministerial response. One of the great frustrations the people in the Coolock Law Centre encountered was the fact that not only did they get no action but they found it extremely difficult to get any sort of a reasoned response to their complaint.

On 24 August, 1981, Walter Walsh, editor of FLAC FILE, in an article entitled “Fighting an Invisible Opponent”, which was published in The Irish Times argued:

The social welfare appeals machinery is presently incapable of meeting the needs of the most powerless members of society. There is a strong case for the abolition of the present structure and its replacement by a body similar to the Employment Appeals Tribunal.

Walter Walsh was critical of a number of other aspects of the appeals system. Its independence, he said, was undermined by close departmental ties. Hearings took place on departmental premises. The hearings were run by officers who were, in effect, departmental officials. I want to emphasise that the integrity of the officials involved is not an issue. I have never heard a suggestion that there was anything other than an attempt to operate scrupulously within the officer's understanding of the job he or she had to do. There is no suggestion of any malpractice or misbehaviour by the officers. I am talking about a perception of how the system operates.

Because of the non-attendance of deciding officers, appeals officers had to take over their departmental files in order to air both sides of the case. As a result Walsh said "a claimant cannot be blamed for confusing the hearing with a higher stage of administrative review rather than a truly fresh and independent look at this case". That is true, irrespective of the commitment of the officials involved to do their best, to be independent and detached. This is not intended to be an attack on the officials. I have been known to be critical of officials but in this case this is not the issue.

Clark described the social welfare appeals system as little more than an additional level of administrative review — this because of the process, not because of the individual's activities involved. In clinical, legal, precise terms Clark is exactly right. He argued that social assistance schemes, with their historic roots in poor relief and charity — unlike social benefit schemes from 1911 on which were purchased — never considered they were conferring any rights on claimants in the first place. There was no provision for appeals in the 1939 Public Assistance Act. Hopefully, times have moved on since then. The 1975 Supplementary Welfare Allowance Act laid down the basic principle of a right to a minimum income. Now, 11 years later, it is time to lay down the principle of legal rights to appeal if that minimum income is denied. A right to an income must be balanced by a right to redress of grievance if that income is not provided.

It has to be emphasised that at present there is no right to an oral hearing under the social welfare appeals system. This is quite contentious and is something on which there are a number of views. But there is no right, under present legislation, to an oral hearing. In 1976 Walsh estimated that 45 per cent of cases were being decided without any oral hearing. Clark reported in 1978 that disability benefit appeals tended to be dismissed summarily. It is worth quoting from the Department's own information leaflet on appeals, SW 56, which states:

If an appeals officer feels an oral hearing is necessary, a place and date are set as soon as possible.

Imagine if we had a provision that if a judge felt a court hearing was necessary he would have a court hearing, but otherwise he would decide without hearing the evidence of the people involved.

Subsequently it emerged from the Commission on Social Welfare Report, 1986, that up to 60 per cent of appeals were dismissed summarily — the information contained in the report of the Commission on Social Welfare is the most up-to-date information I have at my disposal: I could usefully spend another week discussing the report of the Commission on Social Welfare.

It is certainly true that some appellants may not have been statutorily entitled to their claims and one would expect therefore that some appeals would be refused. It may well be true, as the Minister's predecessor told the Dáil, that when a person seeks an oral hearing he is never refused — Dáil Official Report, 7 December, 1983, column 1354. Nevertheless, I cannot believe that justice is invariably done if 60 per cent of all case are summarily dismissed. If 20,000 appeals take place each year that means 12,000 summary dismissals. Not only is the claimant not given the benefit of the doubt but the claimant's doubts are not even given the chance to be presented. That is not in accordance with the system of administrative review in our neighbouring country, upon which our social welfare system is modelled, where the Franks Committee Report, 1957, laid down that administrative reviews should be characterised by openness, fairness and impartiality. Summary dismissals have none of these characteristics, not because the officials involved behave wrongly but because of the nature of the process.

The importance of a right to appeal is fundamental if one looks at reversal rates of appeals. In 1978, according to the Dáil Official Report of 20 February 1979, column 1574, reversal rates were 36 per cent. It varied from one scheme to another, for example 39 per cent on unemployment benefit, 46 per cent on unemployment assistance and 23 per cent on disability benefit according to the Coolock report, 1981.

Clark concluded:

These reversal rates indicate that the quality of first instance decision-making is unsatisfactory.

Summary dismissal of cases is clearly an unacceptable form of treatment of claimants. It is worth remembering and there is ample evidence of this — that social welfare claimants, being poor, being those with the least education, articulateness, familiarity with bureaucratic procedures or assertiveness, are those least likely to appeal in the first place. Conversely, when such a person organises an appeal — many will be sceptical about the value of so doing — it is a very major statement of doubt as to fair treatment.

For those in authority to justify dismissing cases summarily on the basis of appeals being frivolous, stupid, vexacious or based on wrong information — and I have heard all these arguments — is of doubtful validity in even a small number of cases. But when it happens in 60 per cent of cases that appeals are dismissed summarily, miscarriage of justice on a truly giant scale may be taking place. It is extremely important to understand that people who are the dependants of the social welfare system do tend to be less articulate, less assertive, less well-educated and all the other characteristics, and they do not lightly undertake what threatens to be an intimidating process of appeal. Therefore, it seems to me that to suggest that 60 per cent of appeals can be dismissed summarily is to completely understate the need of the person who makes the appeal.

Even if the Minister does not agree with this contention, or my contention that there is an intrinsic right to a hearing, there is still a need to bring the law into line with the Supreme Court judgment of 16 February 1977. In the case of Kiely versus the Minister for Social Welfare decision of Henchy, Parke and Griffin, Justices (Irish Reports 267, 275), Mr. Justice Henchy ruled that an oral hearing must be held if there is any conflict of evidence. The British National Insurance Commissioner, Sir Robert Twaite, in 1976 strongly objected to the idea of selection of some appeals for hearing and others not, on the basis that difficulty and complexity are not always evident and sometimes emerge at the hearing for the very first time. It is a presumption of insight and a presumption of knowledge and understanding to presume that everything that may emerge in an appeal can be spotted from the documentation in that appeal.

As far as the procedure of hearings goes, the Department of Social Welfare now provide that appellants may be represented by a doctor of solicitor for whom an appropriate fee may be paid. Appellants may now make opening and closing statements, call witnesses and cross-examine. Obviously this represents a considerable improvement and development of the original appeals procedure of the early fifties. Nevertheless it remains the case that many appellants are inadequately informed of these procedures. Very few appellants are, in any event, legally represented. This is an important issue because the only comparative study available from Britain shows that the reversal rates for unrepresented claimants were 16 per cent, but for represented claimants from 39 per cent to 50 per cent.

It is extraordinary that when claimants actually had representation they had a two to two-and-a-half times as good chance of having the appeal upheld than if they went unrepresented. It indicates the whole fragility of the process of appeal that the absence or presence of legal representatives can make such a profound difference to the degree or the possibility of success of the appeal. Secondly, it is worth adding that several schemes of social assistance either have a different or an even more limited procedure, for example supplementary welfare, or none at all in the case of DPMA.

It has been argued from time to time that assessors fulfil the role of guardians of independence for the appeals system. This is neither the case in practice nor in law. Assessors are given little notice of cases. Having been on a panel of assessors I can enthusiastically elaborate on that if anybody wishes. It can be often a half day or a day's notice when you are invited to sit on a panel of assessors. I gather it has improved somewhat but at least in Cork these occasional requests appeared out of the blue without any prior notice.

To the average assessor, particularly on the trade union side where I was, a day's notice to organise getting away from work was far from adequate. As well as the shortage of notice, the assessors are not given the social welfare file or the deciding officer's comments and decisions are made in their absence. Secondly, their role is one of being allowed to speak only when spoken to. The Supreme Court, in ruling on the role of medical assessor under the Social Welfare (Occupational Injuries) Act, 1966, made it clear that assessors are not to take an active part in proceedings. The Court ruled they were to be only a "medical dictionary available for consultation", in the words of Mr. Justice Henchy. They were not to cross-examine, prompt questions, or submit opinions on the merits of an appeal. Having looked at and heard about and wondered about the whole role of assessors, I think the least that can be said is that they serve little purpose in continuing in their present role. They should either be abolished or made a full and equal partner in the appeals process.

Incidentally, the appeals system appears to remain a largely maleoriented one. I mention this because of the special interest of the present Minister for Social Welfare on the issue and I am sorry she is not here. Until 1983 there were no female appeals officers and I do not know if any have been appointed since. This is a very serious matter. It is not just a matter of balance of the sexes. It is important first, because of the greater number of female social welfare recipients in recent years and secondly because of the greater number of female social welfare recipients who tend to be involved in the appeals process. There is evidence of a higher degree of refusal of social welfare, particularly to married women, on the grounds of non-availability for work.

It is men who are taking the appeals decisions over such matters as women's availability for work and unmarried mothers' and deserted wives' claims. It is a classic case of men deciding how men's laws should affect women. I hope the present Minister will at least endeavour at that very limited level to redress that imbalance.

That fairly comprehensively covers the huge defects in the present appeals system. It would be wrong, incidentally, to treat the appeals system simply in the context of the number of appeals each year. This is part of the procedure of justice available to everybody who is dependent on social welfare. It therefore affects more people in this country than any other area of legislation. It is part of the values which underlie the social welfare system. It is not just a problem for those who appeal; it is a way of saying what we think of the whole of our population who depend on social welfare. I had to introduce this Bill because successive Governments, despite the submissions of voluntary organisations and the overwhelming legal arguments, failed to reform the system of social welfare appeals. This Bill is necessary because of the need for reform which I have outlined and also the need to recognise what I believe to be compelling legal judgments entered since 1952.

The Bill remedies the defects in the existing system which I have described. In doing so, it builds on existing law. In particular, it draws on the experience and structures of the Employment Appeals Tribunal and on the social welfare tribunals established in 1982. These social welfare tribunals have had limited testing under procedures related to payments to workers locked out in an industrial dispute. When it was introduced in the Seanad the Minister specifically told this House in relation to that particular social welfare tribunal system that it was uppermost in his mind to introduce a method of adjudication that was "fair and independent".

The system of tribunals introduced under my Bill is similar to that in the Social Welfare (No. 2) Act, 1982. This Act has not produced any major difficulties or problems — quite the opposite in fact. To be logical, anybody arguing against my Bill must also explain away the need for the 1982 appeals tribunal legislation which applied the principle that I suggest in my Bill to one limited area. Otherwise you are saying there are two different kinds of social welfare recipients, those who are entitled to a proper hearing and those who are not. I do not think in that context that we have many takers for the idea that we should abolish the whole system.

As I said, my Bill builds on existing legislation and adapts and amends what is there. To that extent it is a conservative piece of legislation. There is a minimum amount of repeal of existing law. My Bill is constructed on well-documented evidence and on detailed legal arguments. It extends the position of welfare claimants from one of limited access to limited administrative review to the rights inherent in citizenship in this country.

The need for an independent welfare appeals system was discussed in detail by the Commission on Social Welfare. This Bill provides the Minister with a real opportunity to begin to implement a significant component of the commission's report. None of the allegedly overwhelming arguments about the cost of some areas of the report of the Commission on Social Welfare applies in the least in this area. This is not a high cost undertaking. The cost attached to this element of the commission's report is quite low.

The Minister has been criticised for postponing decisions in the commission's report that would cost money. A reform of the system of social welfare appeals would provide real and tangible benefits to all claimants, extend rights, enhance citizenship and lead to a sense of justice in an administrative system. It would do so at little financial cost to the State and for substantial administrative gain.

What I detailed earlier in what I had to say, overwhelmingly states the case for reform in terms of the right of the claimant, of the perception of the claimant, of the status of the claimant, the right to know what is going on, the right to an independent hearing, the right to participate properly in that hearing and the right to be informed in detail about the decision taken on something as vital as a person's income. The only objection is that it will involve some small extra cost. But the small extra cost involved in setting up an independent process of social welfare appeals, covering the whole spectrum of social welfare, has to be balanced against how we deal with the people who are at the margin in social welfare and whose income depends on the decisions of the Department of Social Welfare.

How we deal with those people is a measure of our attitude to people on social welfare. Are they treated as small units conveniently disposed of by an administratively convenient system, or are they dealt with as people with all the need to have their dignity respected that the rest of us take for granted? None of us would be happy if major decisions about our lives were to be taken with that amount of limited information, with that amount of limited access to the evidence against us and with that amount of limited information why a decision was taken. We would not tolerate it. We should not tolerate it for people who are far less well off than ourselves and, therefore, I happily ask the House to give the Bill a second reading.

At the outset I compliment Senator Brendan Ryan on introducing this Bill and on the way in which he has presented it. It is obvious that he has put a lot of thought into examining how the social welfare system operates. He has drawn attention to certain aspects of the system that cause a certain amount of unease and which could be interpreted as being unjust to certain people.

Senator Ryan also drew attention to the fact that some decisions are made in an arbitrary manner and that the people who are ruled out do not understand the reason. In many cases those people are not given an opportunity to state their case. No allowance is made for the fact that many people are not articulate enough to be able to present their case in a way that would do justice to themselves. Members of the Oireachtas and the general public should be fully aware of what the social welfare system costs, the number of people it serves and the improvements made in later years. A high percentage of our people are in receipt of social welfare payments. The total number receiving social welfare payments each week is about 1.3 million of the population. The system affects a big section of our population and it should be looked into. Everything possible should be done to see that it is 100 per cent efficient and is seen to be efficient.

The taxpayer and people in general will have to be told that this year the Government have to find £2.5 billion to finance the social welfare services, which is £7 million a day. That is 27½ per cent of total gross current expenditure. At every opportunity the whole system should be examined. Members of this House have experience of meeting social welfare recipients in their clinics and realise the difficulties some of these people experience, their inability in some cases to understand why they were turned down, the inability in the case of deserted wives to understand the long delay that must occur before payments can be made. These points were mentioned in the House before and are of concern to a great many people.

There has been a phenomenal growth in expenditure under this heading during the past ten to 15 years. The growth has been so great that there is an element in the country who believe we have gone too far. This is not a view I share, but people hold the view that we are spending an inordinate amount of money on social welfare. Those people must be made to understand the needs of the recipients. They must also be reassured that the system is so efficient and so impartial that the taxpayer is getting good value for his money. They must also understand that payments made by way of taxation are not misplaced.

The total staff employed in the Department of Social Welfare is in the order of 3,783. We have to be very sure that people in the Department of Social Welfare are working efficiently. If we think in terms of adding to the staff in order to give a better service, we are taking more money out of the fund and consequently less will be available for people who are in need.

Changes have occurred in the social welfare system. In relation to unemployment assistance up to a few years ago the criterion used by the inspectors was the poor law valuation. That was ruled out by the Supreme Court some years ago and a new system was introduced which is much more difficult to operate. The new system of calculating whether a person is entitled to unemployment assistance is based on an assessment system which is very difficult for the inspectors. Standards which apply in one county or in one area of a county need not apply in another county where the land is of a poorer quality and where a greater amount of fertiliser must be used, where more animal feed has to be bought for animals in the winter months. All of these are facts that change substantially from one county to another and indeed from one area to another in the same county.

A few years ago when Deputy Donnellan was in that Department a guideline was drawn up to enable people to assess what allowances should be made to calculate their net income. That was a help to the applicant and to local representatives who were trying to help but still is a big problem. We have about 20,000 appeals per annum. In trying to calculate the amount of time that takes up in a Department, if each appeal took only half an hour of an official's time which is a ridiculously short period, that would amount to a total of 10,000 hours in the year. If we take the travelling time of people going to centres in the provinces to adjudicate in some of these cases and if we take the time of typists and others it would probably work out at far more than half an hour per person. It might average out at about an hour per case which would be a staggering total of 20,000 hours but that has to be done in order to ensure that as far as possible the Department are impartial and fair within the system.

Senator Ryan has drawn attention to specific cases of claims being turned down. He is not satisfied with the way it is done. In all honesty I have to say I am not satisfied with it and I am quite certain no Member of the House is satisfied either with the way it is done. However, it would be fair to say that as a general rule the inspectors are impartial and they do the job as honourably and as well as they can within the limits of their guidelines, but because of the set up and the number of cases involved applicants are not allowed to be represented by a solicitor, a doctor or indeed by a more articulate neighbour or local representative. Very often it happens that the person concerned is not able to put over a convincing case. Dissatisfaction arises when a neighbour who is more articulate and better able to put his case is awarded a social welfare payment although in the eyes of the person who is refused their circumstances are the same. That leads to dissatisfaction and constant complaints. It is true to say that no other aspect of a public representative's life takes up as much time as dealing with social welfare claims and explaining to people how they were ruled out. That does not always satisfy these people.

A commission which was set up some time ago looked into this question and there are a number of recommendations here. They tally to a very large degree with the recommendations made by Senator Brendan Ryan. The commission in their report identified a number of defects in the present appeals system which are briefly as follows: no statutory obligation on the part of the Department to inform a claimant of his or her right to appeal; inadequate information provided to claimants on decisions made on their claims and claimants cannot question deciding officers concerning the basis for the decision; no requirement to give reasons for appeals decisions, and information provided on the appeals system in general and the grounds for decision is inadequate; the appellant is not guaranteed an oral hearing and the right to representation at these hearings is not sufficiently publicised; appeals officers should not only be independent from ministerial control but should perceive themselves to be so and to this end should be subject to a different authority from that to which the deciding officer is subject; the system of appeal under the supplementary welfare allowances scheme is unsatisfactory because of the lack of a defined procedure and there is a considerable degree of divergence between the approaches adopted by different health board officers responsible for appeals.

The commission drew attention to that list of defects and it goes on to make recommendations that by and large correspond with Senator Ryan's recommendations. They are first, an appeals office should be established as a separate executive office with an independent chairman; secondly, information on the reason for the rejection of an appeal should be given to the applicant; thirdly, the appeals office should publish an annual report and include, where appropriate, policy recommendations; and fourthly, the supplementary welfare appeal should be included in a general appeals system because that is the one that causes a lot of trouble because of different standards adopted by different health boards.

I favour the main objectives in Senator Ryan's Bill for a more independent and fairer appeals system and, above all, one that is seen to be independent and fair by appellants and by members of the public in general. It is a fundamental principle that not only should justice be done but it should be seen to be done. Senator Ryan has complimented the social welfare officers on the way they do their business and I join him in the compliment. If there are some decisions that are hard to understand, it is probably because the guidelines issued to these officers are not embracing enough and because sufficient opportunity is not given to people to have their case presented properly. If they are not able to do it themselves, they should be afforded the facility of taking somebody along who is able to do it.

It is appropriate that we are discussing Senator Brendan Ryan's Bill at this point when we have a lot of drama in the other House regarding social welfare. Indeed, the whole week has been devoted to social welfare in one form or another. For that reason it is important that we examine this Bill in as great a detail as possible. I wish to congratulate Senator Ryan who brought forward this Bill. Indeed, we have been talking about if for a long time and it is time that action was taken. The Senator has produced a Bill that can be discussed and, I hope, can be implemented.

Under the present system the case is at first handed over to a deciding officer. We then have a subsequent right of appeal to an appeals officer or, in the case of a point of law, it can be appealed to the High Court. We are told that the appeals officer's decision is final and conclusive but that can subsequently be revised by a chief appeals officer. As mentioned by Senator Ryan, it seems to be a cause of concern that 60 per cent of cases are concluded and considered by the appeals officer without any form of an oral hearing. That ought to be a reason for concern for most people. The subsequent appeal is something I believe is kept quite secret, the public are not informed enough about it. I am not aware of the figures but I would venture to suggest that by far the biggest number of appeals are made without family representation, or without a solicitor being with the appellant. On many occasions, particularly in the case of unemployment benefit, I have gone into the Department with people who were nervous, anxious and concerned about their case. I did so to give them moral backing and support and indeed to highlight their case. Many public representatives are doing likewise and very often with a great deal of success because they may be able to present the case in a better way that the nervous or anxious person who is making the appeal. In the case of unemployment benefit there is usually a trade union official or some representative from the employer side involved and that can be very helpful.

There has been criticism of the present system so it is only right that we discuss it and endeavour to correct it. There is without question dissatisfaction with the system. There is a need for a separate independent system where, as Senator O'Brien said, justice would be done and be seen to be done. Something separate from the Department of Social Welfare would obviously be the correct procedure.

There is no need for me to talk about the right of appeal which is basic in any situation. Much of the appeals system is not forthcoming enough and is causing concern and worry to many people who are in the process of appeal. The fact that there is no obligation on the Department of Social Welfare to inform an unsuccessful claimant of his right of appeal indicates an element of mistrust. That mistrust is apparent and people are aware that that exists and the system tends to be weakened as a result. The right to have representation should be spelt out loud and clear. A person going on an appeal should be better informed, their rights should be better publicised in any new legislation and leaflets explaining the correct position as regards appeals now and for the future should be available in every social welfare office. The whole system should be changed, adopted and moved into a simple speedy operation. There is no reason this could not be done given the will and the importance of this subject. This unfortunate problem is increasing daily. More and more people are going on unemployment benefit. They are out seeking jobs to protect their unemployment benefit because they know if they are not seeking employment their benefit can be stopped at any time.

I am dealing at present with the case of a woman who has been unsuccessful in her appeal and yet I know that the women in question worked with a clothing company and has tried hard to get work. Obviously she has tried in the rag trade area where there is work for which she is best suited but she has also tried for work in pubs and offices and for cleaning work and has failed. Genuine efforts to find work should be recognised. That woman's attitude to me was, "I am meeting the people who are knocking me off; they are the people who are employed by the Department of Social Welfare but I think I could make a better case if I were dealing with people who were separate and independent from the Department of Social Welfare". Senator Brendan Ryan, in the Bill before us, is endeavouring to tackle that problem in a very positive way.

There is a strong case for an independent appeals system. As we all know, the Social Welfare Tribunal of 1982 which adjudicated on the refusal of benefit in the case of trade disputes has been very successful and there has been no outcry against it. That in itself must be proof positive that some system, other than what we have, must come. The appeals system must be distanced from the Department of Social Welfare. An independent office or Tribunal, separate and away from the Minister and the Department of Social Welfare with an independent chairman, with its own staff, arranging for the various hearings and advising people on their rights and in what manner they should put forward their claims, is necessary and overdue. If we had more time to deal with the Bill we would have other ideas but I hope the Bill will proceed through the normal Stages of any Bill in this House. On Committee and Report Stages we will have more opportunity to highlight the importance of this Bill and what it means to people who find themselves in the position which is all too obvious at present. Again I congratulate Senator Brendan Ryan and also anyone who supported him in bringing forward the Bill which is overdue. I share in the principle behind the Bill.

On behalf of the Labour Party Members of the House I commend Senator Ryan for introducing this Private Members' Bill. Senator Ryan will probably realise that it is easier to do this in a private capacity than in a political situation which is directly associated with a Government. In this area one realises the difficulties that have arisen already in the whole area of social welfare and even in terms of the equality measure.

I compliment Senator Ryan on the way he has set out this reasonable Bill. We can discuss it section by section and I hope the House will allocate time, when it has dealt with some of the Government business which needs to be dealt with urgently, to try to get it passed through the House. I hope it will not be entirely dependent on Private Members' Time. I do not know what would happen to it in another place.

All public representatives are aware of the problems in their constituencies which Senator Ryan has identified. All of us, including the Minister of State present — the Minister and, indeed, her predecessor — collectively have been inundated with problems in this area. It is refreshing to have suddenly in front of us an opportunity to address the problem as we see it on the ground and see in what legislative way we can overcome the problems people perceive when the decision is against them.

The previous Minister, Deputy Desmond, did a great deal of work in consolidating the Social Welfare Acts. This was a very useful process and addressed in some way the highly complicated areas of social welfare in the contributory stage, the non-contributory stage, the health section, the employment section, health board payments, supplementary welfare, DPMA and so on. It is so complex and widespread that I am not surprised the figures Senator Andy O'Brien mentioned are being used by the Government to sustain this whole area of assistance to so many people in these difficult times of scarce employment and, for many people, ill health. They have to contend with legislation which is quite difficult for them to understand on the ground, and they need assistance. That is why they come to politicians' clinics on a regular basis, or go to social service clinics to ensure that they get their rights.

Senator Ryan feels, and rightly so, that the appeals decision making process should be removed to what could be considered a neutral non-biased and impartial body and he suggests an appeals tribunal.

When the Minister replies to this debate next week she will outline whether she feels an appeals tribunal is the appropriate format. Let us accept for a moment — I cannot see anything wrong with it — that we have an appeals tribunal system where people could be represented and have their case properly heard. Let us compare that with the existing system and the pensions committee system which we abolished about two years ago.

I sat on pensions committees on many an occasion and was one of the people who advocated that they should be abolished because they were a travesty of justice. People came before the committees and had to bare their souls and identify their total assets, minute though they might be. There was absolutely no privacy whatsoever. Once an appeal was lodged it automatically came before a pensions committee which had no statutory function and no statutory input apart from asking questions of the applicant and asking for the pensions officer's decision. The pensions officer's decision usually stood because we never had any grounds on which we could properly argue a case. We were not made aware of it by the applicant except in exceptional circumstances and we were just given a brief from the Department on why their decision was made.

This is a good concept but there are many complications on the ground. Let us look at the area of social welfare appeals. Disability benefit is paid to people who are sick and unable to work and who have sufficient contributions to qualify for PRSI for an extended period, According to the Act, I am told, a doctor's opinion is capable of discontinuing the benefit. Generally speaking, the facilities available to the doctors are unsatisfactory. In my own constituency they lack privacy and this makes disability benefit appeals a most humiliating procedure for people appealing against decisions. I contend that there are no facilities, especially medical facilities, available to the medical referees or inspectors to enable them to make a valid decision on an appeal. I agree that we could have an appeals tribunal, but proper facilities should be available in every constituency.

In most towns there are hospital facilities, with X-ray facilities and suitable examination rooms, in which a person could be properly examined. There is no point in basing a decision on somebody who is extremely ill with a lung disease on testing his pulse. When we try to produce evidence like this the medical inspector says: "I am not interested". They said this to people I sent in for examination. The medical inspector says he does not want to see the evidence. He checks the patient's blood test, and asks a few questions: "What time do you get up in the morning? Are you married? What age are you?"—and another decision is made. It is quite difficult to get changes in medical decisions. We have to prove the most extraordinary things and produce extraordinary documentation, X-rays, medical certificates, medical opinions, orthopaedic surgeons opinions, a whole string of stuff, and it could still get ignored because the medical inspector is still entitled to give his opinion.

I was forced to go to the Ombudsman who was successful, but he had to bring in an outside opinion which the Department accepted. The outside opinion confirmed the original decisions and the medical evidence we had but it was a cumbersome procedure. In one case it went on for about two and a half years. I do not think it is a good system that people should have to go to that extreme to prove they are medically incapable of working. If that is the system we want to change in this legislation, it is time we changed it. In medical disability claims proper facilities should be available to the Department. They should have access to hospitals. There should be a link between the health boards and the Department of Social Welfare in this area to make sure people are properly and thoroughly examined in relation to an appeal.

I want to make it quite clear that nobody on this side of the House, or the other side of the House advocates that people should get benefits to which they are not entitled. This puts the responsibility on certifying doctors in particular. That is the key area. If there is a genuine case all the medical evidence from hospitals and so on should be taken into account by the Department. Having examined all the information a medical referee should not be afraid to give an opinion, contrary to that of his colleague who had already disqualified the person. That is my attitude to disability benefit.

People are entitled to unemployment benefit if they are in credit, have not walked out of a job and have not been disqualified for some reason. If they have PRSI contributions they are entitled to unemployment benefit. They have to prove their availability for work and be genuinely seeking work and have credited contributions. They are disqualified if they are found to be working and nobody here will disagree with that. This puts a major responsibility on employers not to employ as cheap labour people who are signing on as being unemployed.

Unemployment assistance is means-tested and the person's ability to work is investigated, his availability for work, the fact that he is seeking work. He has to produce all sorts of evidence that he is seeking work. In addition he is means tested, his relatives are means tested and the house he is living in is taken into consideration. The son of a doctor, a garda or a professional person applying for unemployment assistance — who never worked after leaving school because he could not get a job—is means tested. The same means test is applied to the son of a recipient of social welfare. Parents of an applicant for assistance who are pensioners were means tested. We have built into the system the ability to consider some of the income of other people in the household.

People must have the right to go in and state their case. It can be presumed that they have incomes but there could be all sorts of outgoings of which the investigating officer might be unaware. There should be some procedure whereby people could state their case. The fact that a person is living in his parents' house does not give him any legal right to sustenance particularly if he is over the age of majority and is signing on for unemployment assistance. We need a system whereby people can appeal against those decisions.

This brings me to the area of non-contributory pensions. The Minister for Finance Deputy J. Bruton, made a statement about the major payment made in this regard and the deficits in the amount of money coming in. People can transfer their property legally to somebody else and then apply and qualify for a non-contributory pension. In that process there is a period between the time they divest themselves of their property and apply — I am not sure whether it is 12 months. People transfer large tracts of land and large amounts of money to other people to qualify. There are exceptions to this. There are poor people who have very little at the end of the day having worked hard all their lives. I would like to see them getting something.

There is a gap between the Department's income and outgoings. We have a system of computing which very few people understand. A percentage of the first figure is written off; then there is a fraction of what is left; then there are two other fractions. It is difficult to understand it. When people get decisions stating that their pension was disallowed on the basis that their means exceeded so and so, it is hard to work out how their means were arrived at. These are some of the anomalies in this area. A full explanation of how it is done would be of benefit to those of us who represent applicants and to the applicants themselves. In answer to criticism I must state that in some cases which I have seen the reasons were given on the notices. Their means exceeded the limit or the person was not genuinely seeking employment. This latter reason is quite difficult to prove because anyone who can be proved not to be seeking employment in this day and age is sailing close to the wind. As far as I am concerned everybody is seeking employment. If you can produce documentary evidence from four or five prospective employers it should be sufficient to prove that there is a genuine commitment to a search for employment.

Means testing is where public representatives have most difficulty in explaining the process. People have an idea that they can have large amounts of money in bank accounts and in investments which give them an unearned income. The feel this is not an income because that money is there for the rainy day or the funeral. In the past people were thrifty and saved. They do not like to be penalised and it is difficult to explain to them that they are getting an income, as they are not using it. They feel they have a responsibility to ensure that there is sufficient money available to bury them. In long term geriatric hospitals money is accruing to some people and they are not aware of this as they are incapable of making decisions. I should like to address this question another day.

I agree with the concept of the Bill. It is important that when people are given a decision which they want to appeal, it should be decided in another area. The whole concept of basic justice and common law is that a decision cannot be taken by somebody with a vested interest. No matter how genuine the decision might be — and Senator Ryan was careful to say he was not bashing officials — if it is taken by somebody with a vested interest there is always a worry that it could be misconstrued.

From my experience on the ground, apart from disability benefit appeals, I have found the Department helpful. People who are on existing schemes and have applied to change have been advised by the Department not to change where it could affect them materially. For example: if they wanted to change from an invalidity pension to a retirement pension the Department quite rightly point out that they would be likely to lose their entitlements to free electricity, free travel and so on. The Department explicitly set out the advantages and disadvantages.

People are entitled to know their rights. In the area of appeals they are entitled to know their rights also. It is important that when they are trying to ascertain their rights there should be an impartial procedure. Nobody in the House would advocate that applicants who are not entitled to these payments should get them. We want to ensure that the applicants who apply and are entitled to benefits get them. In 50-50 cases, where the balance is not on one side or the other, I suggest to the Department in common justice that their heart should be on the right side, on the side of the applicant if there is a slight doubt. It could always be subject to review.

I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Independent Senator who had the ingenuity to put it together and present it to the House. I look forward to the Minister's response, which I hope will be the Government's response in this area of social welfare appeals.

I am particularly anxious to support this Bill introduced by Senator Brendan Ryan. I indicated my support for it some considerable length of time ago. I must say I am delighted to hear the reaction on the Government side of the House both from Senator O'Brien and Senator Ferris to this Bill and, of course, also the reaction of Fianna Fáil's Senator Fallon. It seems that now that the Independent Senators have brought this Bill before the House there is a lot of support for it and many people are well aware of the difficulties in the social welfare appeals procedure. This is nothing more than what one might expect because very many Senators are dealing with the problem on a day to day basis among people in the areas in which they live, where they are public representatives and where these problems present themselves on their own door steps. Naturally, they are aware of the difficulties.

We are glad of the support and of the compliments that have been paid to Senator Brendan Ryan. We want more than verbal support and compliments. We want Government action to bring this into being. If the indications of support we are getting are to be brought into action I suggest that all these people should accept the passage of the Second Stage so that we can get on to Committee Stage and be able to raise the nitty gritty aspects on the various sections of the Bill.

When he was introducing the Bill Senator Ryan made a comprehensive speech. I do not intend to go over that same ground again. Nor, indeed, do I intend to repeat what Senator O'Brien, Senator Fallon and Senator Ferris said.

I would like in particular to draw attention to what Senator Ferris has been saying about medical matters. A particularly sore point is the manner in which medical appeals are dealt with and the fact that it is so difficult to get any contrary medical evidence in. I should like to make a few comments on various issues that have been raised. When you come down to it, it is largely a question of basic justice and how we provide basic justice for the people who are, in general, the least well off, the least articulate, probably the least educated and least able to put their own case in society.

First, I come to the question of being told the reasons a benefit has been refused. In some cases a sort of stock reason is given. There are forms where you can tick off the reasons you may be refused. There are quite a number of cases where either one is not told the reason at all, so that it is very difficult to make an appeal, or else the reasons are in some sort of generalised form. A case has been drawn to my attention where a man who worked steadily for 37 years became unemployed last April and was dealing with the unemployment exchange. In September he was told, after a couple of months of unemployment, that he was not making sufficient effort to seek employment and his benefit was withdrawn. He will be going through an appeals procedure. All he was told was that he was not making enough effort to seek work. A man who has been working steadily for 37 years could hardly be described as a work shy person who was unlikely to look for work. At least some details should be given in all justice so that they know what they are appealing against.

We could be told when appealing against the decision of a district justice or a Circuit Court judge that the judge does not necessarily have to give the reasons for his decision. That is perfectly true. By and large judges and justices who take their position seriously give reasons for the decision they make. They make some comment on the evidence even if it is fairly brief and they give you some idea of why they made up their minds in the way they did. This is of considerable assistance to the person who is making an appeal. Regularly in this kind of system if a benefit or assistance is refused, there should be at least an effort to set out in reasonable detail why the refusal was made so that the person can know where he is starting from in the appeal.

Like Senator Ryan and others I am not attacking the integrity of the officers of the Department who are dealing with these appeals. I am not for one moment suggesting that they are corrupt, that they are careless, or that they have no interest in people or anything like that. What I am suggesting is that your background makes a great deal of difference to the way your mind is formed, the way you look at something. Without going into the extravagances of "Yes Minister" you cannot help feeling that if you are formed within a Civil Service Department it is not your fault that you look at things in a certain way, just as those of us who are lawyers look at things in a certain way. Those of us who are public representatives look at things in a certain way. Doctors look at things in a certain way. It is difficult in a sense where it gives the appearance that you are being judge and jury in your own case when the appeals are within the Department.

I think it would give a much better sense of basic judgment if we had an independent appeals system. No doubt we will be told that would be costly and we cannot afford the cost. When we are costing it, we should also take care to do something which is not always done in Civil Service assessments, that is, to cost the time of the civil servants who are involved in the present system. Obviously for every officer of the Department who spends an hour or two hours deciding an appeal, one can quite readily work out how much that is costing in the overheads of the Department and in that officer's salary. It is not just a question of saying we have to spend a great deal of new money putting up an appeals system. It is a question of how much additional money do we really have to put up in setting this up if we offset against it the money we are already spending on the present system. I appeal to people who are thinking about this to think of the concept of costing people's time and it might not cost as much as we think to have a more independent system.

There is also the question of the need for an oral hearing. A disturbing figure that came out in the report of the Commission on Social Welfare is that 60 per cent of these appeals are summarily dismissed. There are various reasons why one should have an oral hearing. First of all, many of the people involved are not particularly good at documentation and may not be particularly good at putting down their case in writing, but if they had the chance to put their case orally and particularly if they had representation they would have a better chance. Secondly where there is a conflict of evidence in a court decision an oral hearing seems to be a very obvious need. To take a parallel in an ordinary court hearing where you have affidavits on both sides — in other words where the parties are putting down their case in writing — if there is a conflict between the affidavits there must be a right for oral cross-examination, for oral hearing. This is a parallel situation. If there is a conflict of evidence there should be a chance for questioning and for dealing with the evidence in an oral setting.

With regard to representation and how people express themselves, I would be very impressed with the sort of evidence put forward by the Coolock Law Centre because the Coolock Law Centre deal with this sort of thing on the ground all the time just as Senator Ferris is dealing with it on the ground all the time. In the north Dublin area the Coolock Law Centre have enormous experience in dealing with this kind of thing and with people involved in social welfare appeals. We should listen to their real experience. We should also look at the sort of people who are involved. Are they the sort of people who are really able to run an appeal, whether a written appeal or an oral appeal, on their own. It is particularly unfortunate that the civil legal aid board scheme of the law centres are precluded from acting on tribunals of this sort. This is something which Senator Robinson and I mentioned at the time when we had our Private Members' Motion about the legal aid board schemes. If we were to take only one step we should take the step of allowing people to be represented through giving proper legal aid and giving representation through the legal aid board. While the Coolock Law Centre may do marvellous work in their own area the Coolock Law Centre are only in one place and they are always severely restricted in their funds. That is very important.

Debate adjourned.
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