The difficulty about not following my notes is that I am not quite sure what I said before.
Tourist Traffic Bill, 1987 [ Certified Money Bill ]: Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
You were talking about the fish in Dingle.
I was making the point that people are getting very health conscious about what they are eating. This is re-echoing my first point that Ireland could become the good food, the clean food, the natural food centre of Europe. I was making the point that in a restaurant last night I was sitting beside someone who was having fish, and they asked if the fish was from the Irish sea or the Atlantic. The fish was from Dingle, and it was good fish as one would expect but the difficulty now is that a lot of fish which originated on the east coast is being sold out of boxes on the west coast. I have just come from a different restaurant where I had my tea and there were a couple sitting at the table next to me discussing holidays. They were not talking about Ireland. They said they were going to holiday on the Atlantic coast because it would be much cleaner. People are interested in this subject. They are entitled to look for clean air, clean seas and pure water, and that is what we can offer them. We have resources which deserve to be maximised and developed.
I want to refer to the whole area of sea and water recreation, hobbies and leisure time activities. When I was growing up in Dingle there were regular sea angling competitions at all the west coast ports. That activity has died down, and I would like to know why. We have probably the best coastline in Europe for sea angling — sea angling festivals and competitions — and it should be encouraged because it is an activity which can take place irrespective of the weather. It is like scuba diving to which I referred earlier. Scuba diving is a growing sport but there are many parts of Ireland where the activity is not carried on for the simple reason that people who wish to go on diving or skin diving holidays cannot get their air tanks filled locally. This is simply an air compressor, no more difficult than the compressor used in most garages for pumping tyres, but if people cannot get their air tanks filled they cannot use that area for diving. These are the kinds of small facilities that can attract groups of people. I am talking about meeting the needs of small groups because that is the way we will eventually build a big industry.
The Irish coastline is absolutely brilliant for sail boarding and surfing. I will not go through every sea and water sport, except to say that we have the facilities, we have the ambience, and the proper environment. Let us keep it clean and sell it that way.
My other point relates to canals and river boats. The Shannon, the Barrow and various canals have a huge amount to offer. I had the figures, I lost them during the day but in terms of the comparison between the number of boats per mile on the Norfolk Broads as opposed to the Shannon, there is no comparison.
Prow to stern.
That is right. That is something we should be selling more of. This is a cause of wonder to foreigners who come to Ireland on a boating holiday. One of the nicest weekends I have ever had in Ireland was when I travelled by boat from Tullamore to Robertstown and back, calling at places like Edenderry along the canal. It was a winter weekend in October and the weather was fairly bad, but it was a weekend apart. It was something very special and I have no doubt that this kind of thing can be sold. You do not need islands off the west coast to get away from it all. There are rivers, canals, etc. in the centre of Ireland which also give that same sense of being close to nature and to the environment.
We have had the problem of the pollution of some of our inland lakes for a number of years, and I am glad to say it is a problem that has been acted on, and is being resolved at the moment. That was a scandal. I am not sure if the way forward is to impose more penal sentences or harsher fines on people who pollute our rivers and lakes. These people are attacking our heritage when they pollute our waters and unless we take it personally, we will not go forward.
I welcome this Bill which is a positive move. We do not need to be critical of our country. We need to be positive about developing the arguments for a better tourist industry. I wish the Minister well in his job and I hope he will see that every penny is spent in a positive, practical and forward thinking way. I welcome this Bill and I support it. Finally, we have national natural resources that people want to be part of, that can compare with any country in the world. They are ours, they are different and let us sell them to the world that way. That is the image we want. Let us keep our country clean so that people will want to return again and again.
I, too, welcome the Minister to this House and wish to congratulate him on the good work he is doing. I congratulate him also on behalf of his young constituents from Killinaleck. It was a pity there was no media presence in Sligo when the national award of Fir Óige was being presented. The three finalists in that contest, which deals with tourism, were from Castlebar, County Mayo, my own little village of Grange and Killinaleck. Killinaleck won the contest and great credit is due to them because they have done great work in the interests of the environment. In the Year of the Environment they reclaimed a two acre field from rocks, rushes and scrub and made it into a beautiful park. It is a pity that Pat Kenny, who sends his team where there is shooting and fighting and people getting injured, did not send them down to Cavan, Sligo and Mayo to see what the youth are doing in a positive way. It is a great pity that RTE would not send their cameras there because it would help tourism and would show the good side of youth. The majority of our youth are great people, but they are judged by what the minority do. I call on RTE at this late stage to send down a team to see the projects these all Ireland finalists produced. We should see that in a proper perspective.
Before I deal with the Bill, I ask the Cathaoirleach to allow me to refer briefly to a statement made here today in a very disparaging and disgraceful manner about our colleagues the county councillors and elected representatives of Ireland. They were referred to in a very derogatory manner. I graduated from a local, rural vocational school where I was taught to speak in a clear, coherent and civil manner. I am very sorry that some of our university graduates in this House — not all of them, thank God — referred in a harsh, arrogant manner to our colleagues and elected representatives. It is sad when men and women of that calibre cannot control their tongues and speak in a civilised manner after all the money that was spent on them in elaborate universities. They are a disgrace to themselves and their schools and indeed to the teachers who taught them. The Senator tried to confuse issues when he referred to the monstrosities of office buildings. I would like to remind him that colleagues from his own university designed, planned and organised the erection of those monstrosities. It was not the county councillors.
The Senator went on to talk about section 4 to try to implicate the councillors in this ridiculous work. Let the Senator get his points clear and separate the two. Section 4 relates only to where a son or a daughter wants a house on their parents' land. If the bureaucratic machine wants to deny a father or mother the right to allow their son or daughter to build on their own land, we will always oppose it because we will be with the people. If some of those eloquent people had been around 100 or 200 years ago, I wonder would the beautiful Rock of Cashel, a tourist attraction today, have been referred to as a disgrace on the skyline?
Senator Farrell referred to the remarks of the Senator earlier so please get back to the Tourist Traffic Bill.
Probably it was a gentleman like the Senator who inspired Shaw when he said: "Those who can do, those who cannot teach."
I will suffer silently. We will get on to that in due course.
I should like to congratulate the Minister on the wonderful work he did——
When was that?
——in trying to broaden the scope of landing facilities for the air services. It was unfortunate for the Minister that the deal which he got was vetoed, not because it was a bad idea but because it had political implications for two other countries. It was a pity that those people did not air the problem with the Minister for Foreign Affairs instead of penalising tourism. We congratulate the Minister on the efforts he is now making to try to circumvent the problem and to make that deal a reality.
I was delighted to hear Senator Joe O'Toole speak in a positive way because in yesterday's paper Ambassador Heckler said if she had any criticism of the Irish it is that we are negative. We should speak positively. Why are we always knocking ourselves? We have many good things: let us discuss them and make the best of them and much of the negative thinking will vanish. We have very good hotels and guesthouses. One can still get very good bed and breakfast for £10 a night which you would pay in any other country in Europe, and a lot more. In this city a person can get quite a nice three course meal for £2.50. They talk about the price of our food but many of these people compare a cafe in a foreign country with Jury's Hotel and think the two should be on a par. They forget they are going into a grade A hotel. If they go into the same hotel away from Ireland, they will pay pretty sweetly and smartly. Guesthouses are doing very well.
The Tidy Towns Competition help to project a great image of our towns and villages but we are not litter conscious. Too many people throw away their litter and they do not care if it is thrown at some other man's door. It is a pity we do not remember the words of Goldsmith, "that if every man in front of his own door swept, the village would be clean." Everybody should dispose of litter in proper receptacles; county councils provide plenty of bins and baskets and it is a pity they are not used. We could make our country like many rural villages — a place of joy and beauty. The Tidy Towns Competitions are doing a great job and they get a lot of help from the tourist board which must be complimented.
Nobody mentioned the fact that we have got a number of blue flags for our beaches which indicate that we have some very clean, pollution-free beaches. I am delighted Sligo was awarded three flags, for Enniscrone, Rosses Point and Mullaghmore which indicates at least 50 miles of beautiful coastline in County Sligo. I am sure the waters in between are as good as the areas where the sampling was done. Therefore, we have 50 miles of beautiful crystal clear coastline in County Sligo and I sincerely hope people will come to swim there. Senator Joe O'Toole can be assured that there is no sewage in the sea around Sligo.
We have many beauty spots like Drumcliffe and Lisadell in County Sligo but we do not have the personnel to provide tourists with information. In my own area last year 33,000 people signed the visitor's book in the church beside Yeats's grave. As 33,000 signed the book at least 50,000 must have visited the area but there is not even a pamphlet providing information. Perhaps the Minister will consider providing finance because it would not cost a fortune to publish pamphlets or to have trained personnel available. People come to see Yeats's grave but they know nothing of the history of the Celtic Cross, the Round Tower or Colmcille, and there is nobody to sell them a leaflet giving information. We tried to establish a centre in Drumcliffe but we could not get the necessary finance.
Bord Fáilte are doing a good job but they seem to ignore the west, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Sligo. All the promotion work is on Dublin, Shannon, Killarney and Cork but not on the West. Yet, the taxpayers of the west are contributing to tht major sales campaign abroad. Our west costline that has the cleanest beaches in the EC, or at least as clean as any others in the EC — worthy of the blue flag — is not receiving the attention or promotion it should.
The Senator and his colleagues must not have sufficient clout.
Perhaps we have not but the Minister will be sympathetic to our region anyway. Cork has been the beneficiary for a long time. We must be positive. Any fool can break an egg. It takes a great man to gather together the segments. We are great self-bashers. We must not be expecting sunshine holidays at home. We do not get the volume of sunshine here. We have many amenities we are not selling to best advantage, particularly in the west. If we could get some money we could promote the west and the very historic sites located there. Now that the west has been awarded the blue flag this is a clear indication that our beaches must be up to standard as are our fish. If the sea is clean the fish will be good and healthy. I should like to see the west promoted more vigorously by Bord Fáilte. I should like to see more grants given to promote what might be termed as a personalised service with officers to advise people when they visit an area. This would mean that people could return home with some little knowledge of the history of the region they had visited. I compliment the Minister on the Bill and wish him well in his task.
When I started off I said I anticipated an enlightened and stimulating debate on this Bill. I can say now that I certainly was not disappointed in that regard. I have made copious notes. I will try to get through all the speakers. In regard to any point I may omit if the relevant Senator will contact my office I will try to deal with his problem. Could the Cathaoirleach tell me about the time available to me?
The Minister is fine for time.
Senator McMahon spoke and welcomed the Bill in general and dealt with various points of interest on the general tourism scene. He extolled our scenery, history, landscapes which are so appealing to outsiders and to ourselves emphasising the relaxing atmosphere which visitors experience in Ireland.
Senator McMahon sugested that we should appoint a native of a particular foreign country as an official of Bord Fáilte, somebody who would know the scene in the market from which we are trying to attract tourists. It is true to say, in fairness to Bord Fáilte, that they carry out punctilious market research in various countries. At one stage I think people were so employed. I remember many years ago — before I was elected to the Dáil — being in Munich and meeting a very intense young German, who was prepared to tell me all about holidays in Ballyheige. He referred deliberately to Ballyheige to indicate to me how well he knew his job. The point made by Senator McMahon is a good one in so far as it indicates the importance of market research. I have noted that. I know that Bord Fáilte work fairly diligently in that regard.
Senator McMahon mentioned the British tourist and the effect or impact the troubles in the Six Counties have had on that branch of our tourism. I must say the tourism industry in my area depends very heavily on visitors from Britain. I had an experience some years ago which the House might like to hear about in that perhaps we exaggerate the impact the troubles have had. They have had an impact undoubtedly. But this is my experience. Some years ago, aided by the regional tourism organisation, a group of people who have guesthouses and hotels in the Cootehill area of County Cavan did a small tour of coarse angling clubs in Lancashire and in north west England. They succeeded in attracting over 100 anglers to that area — rich in lakes and in the kind of fishing in which they were interested. I had an opportunity to meeting most of the 100 anglers at the presentation of prizes. The competition was well organised. The accommodation was good, the food provision, the packed lunches, all the special needs of those anglers were catered for. I consulted most of them. I had no brief in tourism at the time but I was interested. Hardly any of them knew that they were within a few miles of the Border. Very few of them knew that there was any trouble there at all. They were interested in their fish, in getting specimen fish. They caught them, weighed them, threw them back into the lake or river and registered them for their coarse angling register back in their club. It was a lesson to me that there are various levels of political sophistication and of tourist sophistication. Those people got exactly what they wanted on that angling holiday. There is a lesson in that for us when we are assessing the impact of political happenings.
As I said at the outset, the troubles did impact heavily on Donegal. Some Senators from Donegal spoke here today about that. That was mainly because, when I lived in Donegal, the strength of the tourist trade there came from the majority section of the Six County population. Needless to say, the troubles had a very heavy impact on that tourism. Senator McMahon mentioned British tourists, as did other Senators, as constituting the backbone of tourism in many parts of this country. They are good spenders. They save for their holidays. They know what they want. They spend their money and are quite critical if the standards are not up to their expectations. They are not looking for a grade A hotel standard. They want a solid standard and, for the most part, they get that in the parts of the country that have specialised in them.
Senator McMahon mentioned that local authorities have obligations. He mentioned road signs as one weakness in their area. It is true that there are weaknesses in that area. The Department of Tourism and Bord Fáilte are not remiss in calling the attention of local authorities to their obligations in this regard. We are not the only country at fault there. I know that on the Continent of Europe — which is much boosted with regard to tourism — in various areas, including important places like Le Havre, there are serious deficiencies with regard to signposting as well.
Senator McMahon mentioned the state of our beaches and the high newspaper propaganda about them. I do not know I have no first hand evidence with regard to this but I do know that, at times, a newspaper headline is not an indication of the real situation in particular areas. I had occasion to write a letter to one of our national newspapers which had picked out the complaints section of the Bord Fáilte report, not indicating that this represented less than 2 per cent of the total number of people who had contacted Bord Fáilte. The headline went to the complainers. The substantial service and success of what was provided did not make a headline at all and was not even mentioned.
The Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission was mentioned by Senator McMahon. While that is not my remit I know that all citizens of this country have a special regard for the capital city. I made a study of Maurice Craig's book The History of the Architecture of the City of Dublin. I know what was done for the city of Dublin in the past, particularly by the Earl of Ormonde and the Wide Streets Commission. Maurice Craig is very lucid and expressive in the way he deals with the development of the architecture of Dublin city. I am convinced that the Dublin City Council, their officials, the expertise they have at their disposal will not let the city down in regard to the development that had been siphoned off for the Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission. I know that the expertise of the architect, Mr. Patrick Shaffrey, whom I appointed to the Board of the National College of Art and Design when I was Minister for Education — who is a native of my county — will be available for anything that refers to the development of Dublin city. It is not my role to comment on what Senator McMahon said but I am convinced that there is nobody on any side of the House that has a monopoly of concern with regard to the maintenance and development of our capital city. I am convinced that as far as the Government are concerned, there would be no fall down in its regard.
I remember in reading history that the Earl of Ormonde by his direct intervention did two very important things. He saw to it that the quays would be maintained, that the houses would not be built down to the edge of the river and we owe to him the fact that we have open quays and open access along the river to the heart of the city of Dublin. The other debt we owe him is the preservation of the Phoenix Park as a natural amenity for the citizens of Dublin. It was to be given as private property to the Duchess of Rutland, who was the mistress of George I, as Craig quaintly puts it, rewards in Ireland for services rendered in England, but the Earl of Ormonde succeeded in blocking that particular act, and she never forgave him until the day she died. When she said to him that she hoped to live to see him hang, he said to her: "Madam, I hope to live to see you grow old."
To continue with Senator McMahon's contribution, I think he may have over-emphasised the danger to tourists of thievery by urchins in the city. We should keep a balance. I know the problem exists, but I do not concede that it is the major problem which Senator McMahon would lead us to believe it is. He mentioned the lack of caravan sites, that there were two, Ballybrack and Shankill. I know Bord Fáilte are conscious of this and are very anxious to develop a caravan site somewhere in the vicinity of Dublin. Senator McMahon mentioned the Dublin Mountains as a proper location and I would agree with him. I think Bord Fáilte have been trying to get a private entrepreneur to interest himself in such a provision, but they have not been successful as yet. I refute his interpretation of what I said with regard to statistics. I said that the statistics I was using and comparing with the statistics from 1986, in fact, did compare like with like. I was comparing the statistics of the months before the trouble started with regard to Chernobyl, before the bombing of Libya and before the statement of the United States President that the citizens of that country should not visit Europe, so I was actually comparing like with like. It was a valid comparison.
Again, Senator McMahon mentioned a neglect of domestic tourism. It is important to realise that what I actually said in my speech was that on becoming Minister I became aware of the importance of emphasising domestic tourism and £75,000 of the extra money which I succeeded in getting was allocated to the development of domestic tourism. I agree with all the Senators who said we cannot and should not be trying to compete with the sun. We all respect the sun, love it and become very Mediterranean if we get three or four hours of sunshine — most of us did last Sunday exactly that — but we are not in that contest. We have some things to offer that the sun countries have not got to offer and it is on those that we are going to lay emphasis.
I have my own views about tourism and particularly tourism from Spain and Greece where many of our citizens spend a great deal of money. They regard their holidays as good value for money and so on but we should counterattack. There are sectors, even if it is very upmarket sectors, in those communities where we can get tourists in the future. We can get them for our very upmarket hotels. It is money into the country. They find the sun no novelty, but the heritage we have here, the kind of country we have and our environment should be attractive to them and I have indicated to Bord Fáilte that I would like a counterattack in those countries. Even if they are only targeting 2 per cent of the population, that would carry some profit for us in the future.
A rather Delphic statement was made by Senator McMahon when he was finishing up, that I said something different in the Dáil from what I said here. I refute that, too, until evidence is produced. I do not believe that happened, but I would like Senator McMahon to convey to me what he thought I said in the Dáil on this debate which was different from what I said today.
The next speaker was Senator Vivian O'Callaghan, who is involved in the tourist business as an hotelier and has expertise developed by participating in the tourist organisation in the south of Ireland. He quoted from the Stokes Kennedy Crowley report which was prepared for the Irish Hotels Federation. That report was sound, the ideas in it were good and the indications are — they expressed them — that tourism will be the biggest industry in the world by the year 2,000 AD. That is why we should give the industry great care and attention at present, not IBM, General Motors, or Mitsubishi but tourism and we can participate. We cannot participate too well in Mitsubishi — or with difficulty, anyway — but we can participate in what will be the largest industry before the end of this century.
Senator O'Callaghan said that the ethnic tourist is very important as far as we are concerned, that fares were a severe stricture on such tourists up to now and that the access costs, the tariffs and so on, being brought down will impact heavily on the numbers that will be coming here. He did appeal also for a five year plan for tourism and I can assure him that that is well under way. A skeletal five year plan has already been made out. We have various things to take into account, including the results of a very expensive consultancy study which was commissioned by my predecessor and which we will soon be getting. We will take whatever wisdom we can out of that also, to incorporate in our five year plan.
It is important to target our markets. On a number of occasions there were statements that the targets were not high enough and that we fell down on that particular aspect of tourism hitherto. We know that Bord Fáilte have accepted the targets we have laid down for them; they are ambitious targets but Bord Fáilte are striving to achieve them in this year and they will be set targets in the future.
Senator O'Callaghan mentioned that the UK had been rediscovered. I know that, if the UK tourism flow stopped, there are whole areas of the country where there would be no tourism at all. I have already mentioned one area and I do not intend to re-emphasise it. However, I do want to say that the new head of Bord Fáilte in the UK, Miss Margaret Cahill, who was in the United States for a long time, blitzed the UK early this season and the results of that publicity blitz are very encouraging.
Senator O'Callaghan said that in the demographic composition of the population of the United Kingdom at the moment, there are ten million pensioners who are reasonably comfortable on their pensions. They are able to save a certain amount and are able to take holidays. That is an area that should be targeted because those people found they can drive safely here. They are a little nervous about driving on the Continent and I would not blame them. Motorists on the Continent hoot, dash around and get jumpy and nervous.
We are so civil here Minister.
We are much more civil and we should claim the credit for it when we are. Those people would have a language problem on the Continent. Ireland is a place where they would like to come and they should be made welcome. This is an area we should target. I know from my own experience and from a friend of the family — an English woman who lives in London — that there are holiday groupings among that age group and they get very good bargains. She is in China at the moment because somebody put a holiday package together for the group to which she belongs. About 150 of them went to China. I am glad that Senator O'Callaghan mentioned this because it is an area that we too could explore.
Senator O'Callaghan said that the price of drink is a handicap. That is all relative. The contrast is with Britain and certainly the price of drink here is much more expensive than it is in Britain. I will not go into the question of quality because it would take me too long and I would need a hydrometer.
And a glass.
Thank you. I have a receipt in my pocket for a Jameson which I bought in a hotel in Luxembourg. It cost be between £3.50 and £4 and it was not a very big Jameson. If we are comparing, we should compare like with like. When we compare our top hotels with the top hotels in most of the continental countries our hotels are very reasonable in comparison.
I take the point and the whole country and anybody interested in tourism takes the point about the 10 p.m. closing time on Sunday nights. Legislative proposals are en route to deal with that problem. Senator O'Callaghan mentioned the pub culture and some Senators were en rapport with pub culture and some were not. I do not have to declare myself but in literary Dublin most people were en rapport with the pub culture. It was said, of course, that literary visitors to Dublin were amazed by the plots for short stories, plays and novels that they heard in pubs and a cynical Irishman said: “Do not worry; they will never be written.”
Senator O'Callaghan complained about unapproved accommodation. There is no solid evidence either in the Department or in Bord Fáilte that would enable us to deal with that problem. There are constitutional issues involved. How can one interfere with the freedom of a person to take somebody in? The complaints made by Senator O'Callaghan were about unapproved accommodation but we do not have the evidence to make a categorical statement on that.
He deplored, and rightly so the impact of fish kills on the tourism product. Any area, including my own, that has had experience of fish kills because of pollution of one kind or another has been devastated. It is sad to see a front page of a local newspaper almost taken up with a photograph of fish which have been killed as a result of carelessness either because of silage effluent or pig slurry effluent. In my area, Lough Sheelin has been a great sufferer.
The Tidy Towns Competition, which was Bord Fáilte's original idea, has been a great promoter of taste in our towns. Senator O'Callaghan said: "Plastic out and craftsman's work in". That is a true summation of the whole business. He also talked about planning and said that in his area in south west Cork planning provisions were sometimes ignored. He instanced a place where a house has been built but the concrete slabs are still in the front garden.
With regard to payola, we have no proof that tour operators, coach drivers and so on are getting money from business people to bring visitors to their premises rather than to any other premises. If any Members of the Seanad know of any such instances they should bring them to the attention of my Department without delay.
Senator O'Callaghan mentioned workshops and these have proved to be very successful. The people who participate in workshops have to pay for the rent of their premises. He thought that the smaller hotels were not gaining much advantage from these workshops and if they did not participate they gained nothing, that participation was expensive and they were depending purely on Bord Fáilte for their promotion. Perhaps the solution lies in a get together of a number of smaller hotels in order to be able to participate.
Senator O'Callaghan expressed appreciation of Bord Fáilte and what they have done in the past. He outlined also the conclusions in the Stokes Kennedy Crowley study. He mentioned CERT. I should like to put on the record of the House my appreciation of what CERT have done in the hotel training area.
Senator O'Callaghan and other Senators mentioned the danger of developing a kind of mechanical tourist attitude. If that comes we will lose what perhaps is our basic strength. We have a natural gregariousness and an affinity with people. If this shows, as it has been showing, in the personnel at desks in hotels and in the people who provide other services it is a greater boon than a shining sun. If there is a frosty face which would freeze the warmest day in May, all the effort put into the tourist industry will be no good.
I spent some time in the United States of America last summer, I am not being chauvinistic but of course I am naturally biased trying to be dispassionate and objective. I must say that our hotel personnel, when compared with American hotel personnel, for the most part won hands down. The personnel in the United States were efficient, businesslike and so on, but there was a certain lack of warmth which I do not think has fully penetrated into this country and I hope it stays that way.
Senator John A. Murphy said that, in order to appreciate the quality of our life, it is essential to live for a while outside the country and he mentioned Boston. He said that our easy going informality was a strength in the community and a strength in an area such as tourism. He went on to say that was the obverse of the coin but the reverse of the coin was that that easy going informality encouraged littering, not taking pollution seriously, and so on. It was a philosophic point and there may be something in it. He mentioned Inchigeelagh in beautiful west Cork where somebody took the wheels off an old truck and left it in the most beautiful site in that area. The local authority should shift such eyesores as soon as the local ganger, foreman or whoever reports them.
He said we should give instructions in the schools. I think for the most part the schools do this but perhaps we should have a formal programme about littering, pollution, care of the environment, love of nature and the study of the flora and fauna of our country. He said also, and I agree with him on this, that public disapproval of littering, public disapproval of carelessness with the environment, is very important but it is part of the same process, that if the children are trained in time they, in fact, will be the organs of public disapproval later on. He claimed that the Litter Bill to which he referred, which went through both Houses of the Oireachtas, was now a dead letter. I do not believe that is so. It should be strictly and consistently enforced.
The Senator mentioned something that is fairly close to my own heart and that is the contribution that summer schools can make to tourism. He said that summer schools — and there is one in University College, Cork, one in University College, Dublin, one in University College, Galway, there is the Yeats summer school which takes place each year — bring people into the country. They get their impressions at student level and they are lasting impressions. Today's students are tomorrow's tourists. I would support that fully.
He made a plea for Bord Fáilte's support. Bord Fáilte have indirectly supported some aspects of this summer school movement already. All over the country we have various people who have become world figures in the literary world. I do not like to commercialise or cash in on it so to speak but for people who are devotees of Yeats, there is a summer school in Sligo each year. Shaw was a Nobel prize winner and a native of this city but I never heard of a Shaw seminar or summer school here. Joyce is an international figure and there is a little bit of a 16th of June display each year, and some talk about Blooms Day but, again, we have not impacted as well as we might to benefit the tourism industry.
I was very pleased at the conference workshop which was held in the Hilton Hotel in London to find a man from Trinity College there with a stall. He had booked out Trinity for the summer months. This is a great benefit to our tourism industry. A couple of summers ago there was a two or three weeks seminar on Berkeley the philosopher, on his life and works, and scholars from all over the world were there. Again, it is a contribution to tourism. That is not the primary purpose or objective of the summer school and far be it for me to suggest it should be. The development of scholarship is the objective but incidentally it is a help to our tourist industry. The grandfather of Henry James, who is a cult figure in the literary world wherever English is spoken or studied, was from County Cavan. I would not mind if somebody took up this cult figure and developed a summer school for Henry James in my county. I would not object to it at all.
The walks which I mentioned in my original speech have been developed by various community councils, by Bord Fáilte, by various groups; for instance, there is the Táin walk, taking the route of the people involved in the Táin Bó Cuailgne, there is a Kerry walk, there is a Wexford-Wicklow walk, there is a Cavan Way, which links up with one in the Six Counties. I hope somebody will have the idea of having a complete around Ireland walking tour, not necessarily a competition, but a walking tour before very long.
Senator Murphy said he was a walking fanatic. Indeed, he might even organise it for me later on. He said that walkers do not mind the rain: they expect rain and that is it. He said it does not rain that often, anyway, although there were some Senators who expressed disbelief at that.
More Cork talk.
He certainly was critical of the litter and filth. He finished by saying that he had a basic faith in Ireland and a basic belief in tourism accordingly because it is a part of our developmental process.
Next to speak was Senator Kiely whose contribution concentrated on the major attractions in our country and the welcome visitors should get. He expressed disappointment that there was not a properly developed mode of conveyance for visitors to his particular part of Ireland, a licensed operation for taking people to the Blaskets and the Skelligs and so on. He made a statement which I disagree with, that somebody had stated that the General Council of County Councils in Ballybunion that 85 per cent of the people of France who were interrogated on some particular occasion did not know where Ireland was. I believe that could have been so 20 or 30 years ago, that people were not very much aware of Ireland. I suppose the sophisticated groups were but the mass of people on the Continent were not quite as aware as they have been since we joined the European Community.
And since Sean Kelly.
Yes. Sean Kelly and Stephen Roche have also taught a little geography uphill and down dale in France, Italy and Spain. I do know if you said Irlandes at one stage in Spain they would say Hollandes and think you were a Dutchman no matter what you looked like. It is an exaggeration to say we are not known at all by 85 per cent of the people on the Continent. It is just not true.
It is wrong.
Do you agree?
It was Kerry.
One hundred per cent of the French know where Kerry is. He said also that interest-free loans are better than grants and he may have a point here. If people get interest-free loans they know they have to pay back the loans and it commits them more to the development of business and also makes them think before they embark on a business which might not have a great chance of success. He also criticised the licensing laws and the signposting. Both of those matters have been covered already.
Senator Manning said — I hope the voters are listening — that I had a difficult task and he wished me well in it. He said that everybody regarded themselves as an expert in this field and that it was difficult to take on interest groups. I agree with him in that. At times, in the interest of tourism, interest groups will have to be taken on particularly in regard to litter and pollution. To galvanise local authorities into action two areas should be part of my mission and I intend to make it so.
The burden of Senator Manning's speech was his call for a major reappraisal of Bord Fáilte on the basis that they had become part of the establishment. He felt I was right in setting targets for Bord Fáilte and that I was monitoring their achievements. He was not fully correct in saying that Bord Fáilte spend £23 million on advertising. He was not quite comparing like with like when he said that £110 million of advertising was what the private sector spent each year and that £50 million was the RTE advertising revenue. In fact Bord Fáilte had about £11 million available to them for advertising.
He rightly emphasised that carriers such as Aer Lingus, B & I, Sealink, Ryanair and CIE were putting money into advertising and that it is part of our duty as public representatives to try to assess the impact. It is difficult to assess who sold what to whom in the tourism field. The hotel groups also spend money on development. His pertinent question was, how many visitors are tourists because of Bord Fáilte's promotional campaign? He said that statistics were imprecise and I agree with him. It is very difficult to come upon hard statistics. The EEC is aware of this problem.
I got a paper which I read late last night on tourism statistics. There is a model being structured at the moment and it will have to be tested in the field afterwards at EEC level in order to assess the tourist statistics. I will await that with interest as it is difficult to get hard facts. If you have the grandson of an Irishman coming from London to visit his people in Clare, Galway, Donegal, Cavan or wherever, is he a tourist or is he here purely because of the ethnic connection? If Bord Fáilte were not selling, would he think it worth his while coming here? There are many variables and questions which are very difficult to answer. I will say that the money Bord Fáilte spend on the publication Ireland of the Welcomes is certainly well spent. It is magnificently produced; the writers are of top calibre; the advertisements are of the best we produce and they advertise only what is produced by way of arts and crafts etc. in Ireland. They do the job of advertising Irish goods very well.
Senator Manning also commended Bord Fáilte on the original idea of the Tidy Towns and on their production of brochures. He mentioned areas over which Bord Fáilte had no control such as the problem of terrorism, the weather, the weakness of the dollar and so on. These are all variables. He made the point that Bord Fáilte complain they have not got enough money when the season is not successful and that they claim the credit when the season is good. The year 1985 was very successful and I am convinced one of the chief reasons for that was that the dollar was on a par with the punt and was stronger than the punt at one time. There is no point in trying to pretend anything else; that was the main reason we had a big influx of American visitors.
The final point made by Senator Manning was that there was a problem of image, that our image was too vague. He said there is an image for Spain, for France and for Britain — although I would not be too sure on that one — but that in French and German magazines he could not exactly extract the image of Ireland that Bord Fáilte were trying to sell. He mentioned wolfhounds and redheads in that connection. I suppose what Dublin Opinion used to call “Caitlín Ní hula ní haín” with the red head may not be enough now for the hard sell on the Continent or anywhere else.
I have dealt with the question of the Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission already. I gather there was some discussion about it which I did not hear. I made the point already and I will not repeat it.
Senator Manning felt that Bord Fáilte were not brunt enough in their marketing, that they did not have the sharp edges they should have and were an ageing organisation. As I said, a very expensive consultancy report has been commissioned and we are awaiting the findings of that report. We should have the report in a week or two. We are putting together a five year plan and all these things will be taken into consideration. Professor John Kenneth Galbraith was in town recently and one of the points he made was also made by Senator Manning, that all organisations as they begin to age — like us all, I suppose — should have a look at themselves and try to make themselves more efficient. The Senator felt Bord Fáilte were not taking on the challenge in the way they would have done in the sixties, that they should be giving a lead. I think those sentiments would find general agreement.
They would find specific agreement with Senator Paddy McGowan who made the next contribution. He indicated that one-third of the beaches of Ireland are in Donegal. I know most them and I agree fully with Senator McGowan with regard to the pleasures of those beaches. I know the beaches of Kinnegar, Rossnowlagh, Portnoo and Bundoran well. Both Senator McGowan and Senator Loughrey felt they were being neglected in the north-west corner of Ireland. As Minister for Tourism and Transport, I feel it incumbent on me to say here that I will pay particular attention to what both Senators said about that area and if I find even the slightest scintilla of evidence that that is so I will in so far as it is in my power take steps to remedy it.
Senator McGowan mentioned the effect that Killybegs school has on the Irish tourism industry. CERT and the Donegal Vocational Educational Committee help that school. It is one of those schools that has deserved well of this country. Its contribution to the tourism industry is unquestioned and I hope it will continue to show the vigour it has shown from the beginning. He was very hard on Bord Fáilte. He said that he had tried for seven years to get an interview with the director general of Bord Fáilte and had failed, and that Donegal County Council asked the director general of Bord Fáilte to go to see them — I think they were two different directors general — and had failed. Perhaps he has a legitimate grouse in that regard.
He said that Donegal was outside the pale of recognition by Bord Fáilte. He said that when there was a question of laying off 2,000 in the Dublin hotels there was a big brouhaha in the newspapers but if the same number of people lost their jobs in Donegal it would not excite people to the same extent. He exhorted me to see to it that Bord Fáilte spent their money wisely and that there should be a concentration on regional headquarters. He indicated he had sent me a draft of a paper with regard to co-operation between Donegal, Derry and Tyrone — I do not know if Sligo and Leitrim are being excluded from the club — but he invited me to amend the draft and communicate with him. I thank him for the invitation to amend the draft.
Many Senators, including Senator McGowan, emphasised the importance of the industry for jobs. Senator Fallon pointed out its place in our strategy. It is one of the areas we have targeted for the creation of more jobs. I have this theory that every good citizen, optimus quisque as the Latin says, should gear himself or herself to getting as many visitors into the country this summer and it will have the effect of increasing employment. He evoked the sacred name of the Boyne when he was concluding and said he hoped that the tourist industry would be successful north of the Boyne. I am in 100 per cent agreement with him. The Boyne is invoked by all kinds of people politically and socially and in that invocation I concur with Senator McGowan.
Senator Harte mentioned the price of drink and cigarettes and, in the context of the British tourist, this is very important. The British working man was a very important constituent of our tourist industry. The fact that there are about three million people unemployed there has affected our tourist industry. I have a friend who lives in Plymouth and nearby there are holidays camps that catered for such people and he told me that for the past few summers they were empty. Those were the people who were thinking of Holyhead and Liverpool hitherto but no longer are in a position to do so. They are good spenders. As I said about the coarse angling people, they save up their money and then come and spend it here. I think the Senator misunderstood my reference in my speech to 950 jobs. Nine hundred and fifty jobs was the estimate of my predecessor as resulting from the special scheme that was brought into operation in 1986. It did not cover any period before that and, as the scheme was designed as a one year scheme, it does not affect this year.
He commended the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Reynolds, for his attempt to bring down the price of petrol. He and other Senators, including Senator Daly later, indicated that the high price of petrol was not due to the person at point of sale on the pumps but that the effort would have to be made further back in the supply line to reduce the very high price of petrol. Of course, we have a big Government take as well.
Senator Harte regretted that graffiti in Dublin scared some English visitor he had and regretted in general the graffiti that discourage particularly people from Britain when they come here. He said it was not getting across to the working people of England that Ireland is a safe place for a holiday, and perhaps the Bord Fáilte people in Britain should take that into account. He also indicated that those people were able to get cheaper meals in the UK. That is a matter for argument. If we are selective in where we purchase food and know what we want and where to go for it, we are not that much ahead of other continental countries anyway.
The Senator said we have many young people and that the statistic was nearly beaten to death, but that he did not think many young people were coming here. Although the German tourist has become thin on the ground recently, many young Germans are coming here particularly for the Irish music scene and they know the genuine and the ersatz in that field. I met a group of young Germans who knew what the real Irish music genre was and they came here for that and for that only. Plenty of young people came to Croke Park recently, not to see any of our games. Also young people have come from abroad to Slane, again not to see where St. Patrick lit the paschal candle.
Senator Harte said that more should be invested in the industry and that he decried him of the quick buck. I suppose the House knows even better than I do that the quick buck merchant falls in a very short time because he is known for what he is. The Senator emphasised the importance of off season tourism. Bord Fáilte are fully aware of this, and my Department are fully aware of it and I have communicated with them about it. The two shoulder seasons, spring and autumn, are what we have to target because that is the time as far as continentals are concerned when they may be thinking of a second holiday. The sun holiday is all right but they have been coming in the autumn shoulder season for their second holiday. Senator Harte also emphasised the hygiene aspect and he dragged in the health cuts by the hair of the head. Fair play, he was making a political point, but that is in the sphere of the Department of Health.
Many of the points made were connected with the Department of the Environment, the Department of Health, the Department of Justice and so on. I am dealing with them in general, not in any expert way. The Senator talked about how important hygiene was and how horrified he was at one stage when he ordered a meal and then got a look into the kitchen. Perhaps the openness of the Greek system where they invite you into the kitchen and you can pick your own meal inside would be wonderful if it were developed in this country and you could go in and see the cooking going on and how it was being done.
The Senator and many other Senators emphasised the importance of keeping our national monuments in proper order and having information available to tourists. That point was made about the Hill of Tara and I will come back to it in a moment.
He made an interesting point about the lottery. I was not 100 per cent sure what he meant but perhaps he was indicating that there should be a special tourist lottery. I might follow him along that line. It might be an attraction for some people to have a special lottery for tourists.
He decried the high insurance costs, which were referred to by Senator Daly later with regard to self-drive cars. Again, as one would expect, Senator Harte emphasised the importance of the industry for the development of employment. That is central to the Government's thinking with regard to tourism and that is why the Government are putting special emphasis on the tourist industry.
In that context, Senator Fallon, the next speaker, made the point that the Government's objective is to get the public finances in order by picking areas for development and the creation of jobs. He mentioned horticulture, science and technology and tourism and he placed the matter in the proper position with regard to Government policy. The objective is to increase employment by means of developing this industry. I take the point, made by I am not sure which Senator, that the industry is not developed to provide employment. It is developed to make profits, but the inevitable result of this is the creation of more employment.
It was Senator Joe O'Toole.
It could be Senator O'Toole. He emphasised strongly the business expansion scheme. As the House knows, the Minister for Finance made provision for tourism to be related to the business expansion scheme. Let me make the point en passant in reply to Senator Daly, who said that the self-drive car business should also be able to benefit from it, that I will be pushing that with the Department of Finance. I am not 100 per cent optimistic that I will achieve it, but I want to put on record that I think it should be included in the business expansion scheme.
Senator Fallon mentioned the Courts Bill. I think he has some expertise in insurance and he indicated that if we got the Courts Bill through the Houses of the Oireachtas it would reduce the level of compensation and, consequently, enable insurance companies to reduce their insurance costs. I hope that is a logical sequence. I will wait until I see it. If the compensation costs are reduced, at least we in the Houses of the Oireachtas will have a lever to try to force insurance costs down.
Senator Fallon talked about the Shannon which is one of my pet hobbyhorses. There has been a good development at Carrick-on-Shannon. Of course, there are developments at Athlone as well. Guinness have invested a great deal in a facility at Carrick-on-Shannon to develop that region. That is one place where we have held the German tourist numbers. The percentage of Germans has held because they love the Shannon right down to Killaloe, an Cathaoirleach's own territory, back to Athlone, to Carrick-on-Shannon and as far north as we can get them.
Senator Mooney is anxious to get them much further north at the least expense. He said we will have to compete, we will have to maintain high standards and we will have to do major marketing. He made a throwaway point at the end which is essential to an understanding of the success of our hotels and guesthouses, that is, that the repeats provide the proof of your success in a hotel, guesthouse or bed and breakfast. If people come back, you have been providing them with the service they want.
Senator Fennell was not too pleased with some of the tired old propaganda — I do not know if she used that word but that is what she meant — with regard to the selling of Ireland. I did not like what she said about the bog road and the pub and that we had come a long way since that. Scientists, romantics and so on still take an interest in the bogs of Ireland. In fact, some foreign scientists cannot be got away from the bogs during the summer months. They study the fauna and flora of the area and the composition of our bogs. They are very angry with us as they think we are going to cut away all our natural bog and that there will be nothing left. It has a specific tourist attraction. Chacun a son goût, as the saying goes.
Senator Fennell emphasised the importance of value for money and the importance of a warm reception. I could not agree more with that. I have already said it and I will not repeat it. It is something that we have and if we lose it and become artificial, tinny, blasé or disinterested, we are on the slippery slope. We will have lost a major strength in dealing with tourists. I do not think the language problem is as great as she said. People can get around in all kinds of countries. Turkey is a developing tourist country and the number of people in any country who speak Turkish fluently is extremely limited. It is important to have people at Bord Fáilte level, in offices and so on, to give directions to people, but I do not think that lack of knowledge of the language keeps many people at home in the end.
I am reluctant to repeat what Deputy Fennell said but she went on to talk about the condition of Dublin Bay. If it is as bad as she says, it is horrific. She said she is a keen swimmer and that she was not over-convinced by the denials of Mr. Noel Carroll about the state of the water. She said Dublin Corporation, Dún Laoghaire Corporation and Dublin County Council should be alerted to the fact that the waters around Dublin are not of top quality. I know that Senator Fennell is a propagandist and all propagandists have to exaggerate a little to make an impact. I hope her exaggeration in this case is great. An Foras Forbatha, she said, are making a study and it will be two and a half years before they have the results but in the meantime Dublin Bay is deteriorating. I hope things are not as bad as that but I will call the attention of my own Department and of Bord Fáilte to what she said.
The quality of the bed and breakfast provided in farmhouses and other premises was extolled by many Senators during the course of the debate and that is the feedback we have been getting also from the various people who use that facility. They say, and I believe they are right, it is the best value in Europe. Somebody said you could get that kind of service for £10 in Europe but that is not so. Possibly in parts of Britain you might get that value but I doubt it very much. The caravan and camping area was emphasised by a number of Senators. I referred already to the fact that Bord Fáilte are trying to get another major site in the vicinity of Dublin and are also looking for sponsorship.
Senator Lanigan, in a wide-ranging address on tourism, listed the circumstances that were hostile to tourism over the past few years. He mentioned the deterioration in the value of the dollar, the access costs — we have done something about that and we hope to continue to do more — and the weather over the past two seasons. We have pluses as well. We have gains in the matter of access costs. He regretted very much, as I do and as other Senators who have contributed to the debate do, the collapse, at the last moment when the voting was 11 to one, of the liberalising package that was worked out at the EC Council of Ministers for Transport. But we will be working on a bilateral and trilateral basis to try to achieve that in the meantime before it comes up for full discussion again at the Council of Ministers. It will not be as long as some of the pundits say it will be but the next time round, as the Single European Act will be in place, one country will not be able to block the package the way Spain did. I am not giving any judgment as to the rights or wrongs of the dispute between the United Kingdom and Spain with regard to the airport in Gibralter. The air strip is not on the rock and is not on the part that was ceded by Spain to Britain in the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713.
Senator Lanigan felt that Bord Fáilte by and large have been doing a good job and there is evidence of this in his own area. The regional organisations are giving good back-up services. I had the privilege of addressing a group of Australians who are in search of their roots in Ireland and for whom the Kilkenny regional tourism people put on a magnificent but very demanding seminar with regard to the tracing of roots. The information made available to them was intellectually very demanding. I am sure the intellectual shock did not wear off for a good few days after the course was over but they certainly expressed their appreciation. Nobody was selling them short. They came a long journey from Australia and they got very good value for money, I wrote to the local regional tourist leader in appreciation of what he had done.
Senator Lanigan talked about the value to us — and, indeed, one of the Senators in this House knows more about it than anybody else in the world — of the sites of Knowth, Dowth and Newgrange. It is something about which George Moore wrote in laudatory terms many years ago. We undersell that whole area.
Senator Lanigan also felt that the youth are coming to visit this country despite the fact that Senator Harte said he did not think so. He made the point that I have already made about the price of drink and, to a lesser extent, about the price of hotels. It is some thing we should keep in mind. If you compare like with like, our top hotels are significantly cheaper than the top hotels in countries of similar size on the Continent of Europe. I will not name cities but hotels in some of them are very expensive indeed. I told the House with sorrow what I had to pay recently for a small Jameson in a hotel on the Continent. You would buy three in this country, despite the fact that we think the price of our drink is too dear.
The point that was emphasised by Senator Lanigan about our short season is one that has exercised the minds of everybody in tourism for some time. It was in that context that I spoke about the shoulder season in spring and in autumn. There are also winter possibilities to be taken into account. I think it was Senator Daly who referred to the singular efforts of one promoter in Cork — he happens to be from my county — who brings thousands of visitors to the south west of Ireland each winter in what is normally non-tourist time.
The convention business is important. We had, as I said, a workshop in the Hilton in London trying to develop the convention business. I appeal to Senators who are influential in their own organisations to try to think of international organisations to which they may be affiliated, or allied or have common interests with, and to try and entice them to come here to hold annual conferences. I can assure them that my Department and Bord Fáilte will leave no stone unturned. They will pull out all the stops to see that that conference is a success. We had several large conferences this year and they were pronounced a success by the general agreement of the participants, and they are the customers who can tell the truth of the matter.
Senator Lanigan emphasised, as did other Senators, the importance of the anti-litter campaign. He also stressed the need for a high standard of hygiene in a country where we cannot boast of our sunshine, and we should not be competing with people who can.
Senator Brendan Ryan took a rather morose view of the whole scene. He talked about cliches, waffle and so on with regard to the tourist industry. He said we never made up our minds what the tourists want. I do not agree with that. I would like to inform him that market surveys are constantly being carried out in the countries we have targeted to see exactly what the tourists want. When it is a question of the Conference Bureau of Ireland inviting people here, the most punctilious detail is gone into to see what exactly they want. We have addressed the question and we have researched the market carefully and punctiliously. It is well to set the record straight.
I agree with the Senator. We do not want over-crowded beaches, but I think Senator McGowan would agree that, if we had a scattering of people on the lovely little private alcove beaches, such as those at Kinnegar or Rathmullan, for most of the tourist season, we would be delighted. I have been there in the past and my family and I had a private beach in Donegal for the whole day. There is no danger of those beaches ever becoming as overcrowded as those in Malaga or such areas where hot bodies cover every square centimetre of the beach.
Senator Ryan also said we did not want to invite gun clubs from the continent and I agree with him. Gun clubs will obey the rules, they will play the game as it is played here and they will not shoot rabbits, thrushes and everything that moves in the bushes, as they have done in the past. The Senator said the Irish people are the real asset for our tourist industry. I do not have to repeat that because I am on the same wavelength. They come to see how different we are, not how much we are like them. They do not come to see the mid-Atlanticism, about which he was talking. They come to hear our language, perhaps as a curiosity, certainly as an aesthetic exercise, to hear our music. They come to see what we are.
I know there was a clash about something the Senator said about section 4 decisions. I belong to a county where there was only one section 4 decision since it was introduced, so our conscience and our slate is clear on that. The point was made later that very few of the section 4 decisions he mentioned had anything to do with housing. Sin mar atáimid was more or less his plea, that is our strength and I agree with him. It is important that planning the environment and the ecology, etc. should be taken care of, but the picture is not as bad as the Senator was painting it. We have pluses; we have developments such as Holy Cross and Ballintubber in small towns. Patrick Shaffrey — a native of my own county, a distinguished architect, a man with a sharp eye for architectural detail, for what is good, bad or middling in our towns and villages — has been responsible for the restoration of many 19th century buildings. For example, he made a beautiful job of the market house in Bailieboro. He has published a number of volumes on our domestic architecture, on our courthouses and so on. There are a number of achievements in this line which should be mentioned to counterbalance the errors and faults of which we have been guilty.
We have a very high standard in souvenirs. I am not so sure that we are marketing them properly, but there has been an upsurge in the expertise in arts and crafts — in silversmithwork, knitwear, rushwork and pottery. I could go through a list of arts and crafts where a standard of excellence has been achieved. I remember wandering into a Bord Fáilte exhibition in Kevin Street some years ago. They had some of our best craftsmen in all those fields. They had a wonderful exhibition there and I do not know if they have ever repeated that. The tinsel, the gaudy and the cheap have been excluded, for the most part, from our shops. I am glad to say that is so, but it is a plus — and it should be mentioned because when we mention the warts we should also mention the good points.
Quite recently in France there was an exhibition of Irish country cheeses. We have developed a variety of cheeses in Wexford, the Burren, in West Cork and in my own home county where there are three different kinds of cheeses, including a goat cheese. They had a maître du fromage in Paris who tested them, assessed them and gave a very good report on their quality. We should emphasise that kind of development and praise those who are worthy of praise and not continually emphasise the deficiencies. There are deficiencies, but I do not think we should shut our eyes to them.
Senator Ryan suggested that perhaps the 10 per cent tax, cutting out all grants and so on, which apply to manufacturing industry should be applied to tourism as well. He asked if tourism is going to be so good, why do the industry not run themselves by forming a co-operative? Why should the State have so much intervention in it?
Labhair an Seanadóir O'Connor ar son turasóireachta an iarthair. Dúirt sé nach raibh iarthar na hÉireann ag fáil cothrom na Féinne ó Bord Fáilte. Sin an scéal a bhí ag an Seanadóir McGowan roimhe. Dúirt sé go háirithe nach raibh cothrom na Féinne le fáil ag na Gaeltachtaí ó Bhord Fáilte. Is dóigh liom gur ball de Údarás na Gaeltachta é agus dúirt sé gur mhol an tÚdarás do Aire na Gaeltachta go mbeadh comhacht ag an Údarás i gcúrsaí turasóireachta; agus ceapaim gur iarr sé ormsa dul chun cainte leis an Aire sin — sin an Taoiseach is dóigh liom — agus é sin a chur in a luí air. Beidh mé ag caint leis an Taoiseach agus leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Denis Gallagher, agus cuirfidh mé na moltaí sin rompu.
Dúirt an Seanadóir go raibh sé deacair in iarthar na hÉireann teacht ar an meon céanna. Mar shampla, i dtuaisceart Chonamara bhí meon eagsúil acu, go raibh na hostáin i dtuaisceart Chonamara, agus i ndeisceart Chonamara nach raibh ach ostán nó dhó. Bhí sé ag cur béime ansin ar na difríochtaí, ar an éagsulacht, idir áit amháin agus áit eile, agus is dóigh liom go raibh pointe aige, go raibh sé ceart sa mhéid sin.
Tá súil agam go rachaidh Aerphort na Gaillimhe chun sochair don turasóireacht i nGaillimh, i gConamara agus san iarthar. Tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil na bóithre thar moladh beirte. Tá siad casta go leor ach bainim féin sásamh as bóthar casta nuair nach bhfuil aon deifir orm, agus ní cóir go mbeadh deifir ar éinne nuair atá sé ar a laethe saoire. Mar sin féin, is cóir dúinn an méid cabhair is féidir linn a thabhairt don cheantar sin chun feabhas a chur ar na bóithre.
Luaigh sé rud éigin eile agus sílim go bhfuil sé tábhachtach mar chuala mé trácht roimhe seo. Dúirt sé go raibh tionscal éisc á fhorbairt sa taobh tíre sin agus go dtagann salachar ón tionscal sin agus go raibh sé tábhachtach nach dtruaillfeadh an salachar sin na tránna i gConamara. Luaigh sé Aire na Mara in a leith sin agus beidh mise ag caint leis mar gheall air sin.
Luaigh sé freisin na féilte sa Ghaeltacht. Tá a fhios agam faoi rásaí na gcurrach agus rásaí éagsúla eile agus go bhfuil siad sin tarraingteach dos na daoine sa Ghaeltacht agus go mbíonn triall ar na rásaí sin.
Chuir an méid a dúirt an Seanadóir Ryan fearg ar Sheanadóir O'Connor mar dúirt sé gur masla dos na daoine ar an chomhairle chontae an méid a dúirt an Seanadóir Ryan mar gheall ar section 4. Dúirt sé go raibh áit deas chompóirdeach ag an Seanadóir agus nach cóir dó bheith ag iarraidh na Gaeil a chur suas ar na sléibhte agus gan ceard a bheith acu bheith connaithe ar an gcósta mar is dual.
Senator Daly spoke next and he talked about the conflict he came up against, when he was a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Small Businesses, between Bord Fáilte and Aer Lingus. He has a particular complaint about Aer Lingus and his own experience added fuel to that complaint. He welcomed the fact that there was now competition, cheaper fares and a better service as a result of that competition. I already dealt with his comments with regard to the cost of car hire; I accept the basic premise of his argument that there are variables which cause this, that back tracking and leaving cars here that were hired in Northern Ireland is a feature of our tourist industry. I accept that block insurance is very costly and I asked my assistant secretary to meet insurance companies to see if it would be possible to bring down the cost. Shortly after I became Minister, I got the figures for other areas and we are away out of kilter with regard to those costs. I already mentioned what Senator Daly said with regard to petrol. He shocked me by indicating that 6p or 7p of the money paid by credit card holders is taken up by the credit card companies. That is a very substantial amount. I mentioned that I would try to push the BES for the car hire service but that I was not too sanguine about what would happen.
Senator Jack Fitzsimons spoke and I am glad he paid tribute to the lakes of my native county. He is a very near neighbour and he has seen people going northwest with their fishing gear. I must go down there when I get away from the Seanad. I will bestow upon him the grand sycamore leaf for praise of my county when I establish it as an award in the tourist field.
He talked about the ancient monuments and there is no better county for a Senator to come from to deal with that specific subject, his own Ceannanus Mór is sitting on history. The ancient monuments in Kells are second to none in the whole country. He went on — and I agree with him — to decry the state of the Hill of Tara. I do not know the remedy. It is badly catered for and I can verify that because I have been there. He said there was a tatty statue of Saint Patrick which should be replaced. John Behan would be able to do a worthwhile statue in the modern mode of Saint Patrick for that area. In Waterloo I saw a metal map of Tara with an indication of where each particular part of the ancient settlement of Tara was — it has been excavated and it would have to be metal or otherwise vandals would smash it. That would be very useful in Tara. Admittedly it might be difficult to provide a booth, hut or stall to cater for visitors, sell leaflets and so on but there should be something permanent — all the better with a guide — because it is too important a site to be neglected.
Senator Fitzsimons said there was a car park there, that the waste paper baskets were not emptied and that there was a general air of tattiness. Tara is worthy of something better. He mentioned the pollution of Sheelin, which is almost at my back door. It is my problem and I intend to dedicate myself to its resolution. I am glad that a number of farmers, particularly the small farmers in the area, have clubbed together with fishing interests and that there is a co-operative effort to improve the situation.
He talked about pub culture and I think he agreed with it. He talked about our flora and fauna, the importance of county museums and libraries as headquarters for local history interest and their roots which are of such great interest to us. He mentioned derelict sites and hoped that there would be legislation to control them. We will keep that in mind. He complained about Dublin and the Clonee bottleneck. I have to go through the Clonee bottleneck and it is a hair-raising experience if you are trying to make any place in time but Dublin County Council have plans for improving it.
He spoke about summer guides for places like Tara and Ceannanus Mór. If my memory serves me right they are provided at the Rock of Cashel. I will keep in mind that a summer guide in a historic place, perhaps a leaving certificate student who has an interest in history and has done it in the leaving certificate, who got some tuition on how to impart information would be a welcome addition to many of the historic sites.
He praised Bord Fáilte for what they had been doing although they fooled him with a brochure a year out of date when he was going from the Burren to the Aran Islands. Perhaps the severest critic of Bord Fáilte, with Senator Paddy McGowan, was Senator Loughrey. He said he had no joy whatsoever and that tourism had collapsed in Donegal. He talked about the closure of Port Salon hotel in Fanad which I know very well and he wanted to know if anyone from Bord Fáilte or from any tourism place, local or central, had spoken to the owners to see what could be done to have that beautifully situated hotel on the Swilly revived. It was a cri de coeur from Senator Loughrey. I do not go along with him, though, in a good deal of what he said.
First, I do know that there are no sharper men than the Donegal men and that they did very well out of the £20 million Border special development fund which was dedicated to tourism and to the development of the crafts. They got as much money out of it as did Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, Leitrim and Sligo put together as far as my memory goes. That was one area anyway where they could not complain — because they were on the ball, they were out there, they were quick off the mark, and more power to them. I am not impugning the thesis that Senators McGowan and Loughrey developed. There is a tendency to forget Donegal because it is so far away to the north-west with the Six Counties intervening and blocking, at least transportwise, the direct line from Dublin to Donegal.
I do not agree with Senator Loughrey that people in hotels, bars and so on are reluctant to serve one that there is no warmth in them. I would regret it very much if that were the case. I do not believe it. Quite frankly, I have to contradict him on that. I have not experienced it. I do not believe it is true of Donegal and I have spent some time in Donegal every year since 1952. I have never experienced it in Donegal itself. I will have a chat with the Senator privately to ascertain what exactly made him say that. There is at present in that kind of field a big drive to instil habits of courtesy and so on. Natural courtesy and politesse are far better than the trained thing but I suppose a little polish may be added by training. I know that the general manager of Dublin Airport went through an exercise of training his staff in courtesy, providing an atmosphere around Dublin Airport which has been visible since then.
I must say also to Senator Loughrey that capital grant aid did help the tourist industry in Donegal. He said it did not but I know it did. I agree that we do not want anybody else's weather. We do not want anybody else's social mores. As Senator Brendan Ryan said, we are ourselves and people will come for that before they will come for a pale imitation of somebody else's mores or culture.
I will call Bord Fáilte's attention to the criticism that both Senators Loughrey and McGowan made of them and seek their comments. I repeat that certainly tourism in Donegal has suffered as a result of the troubles more than in any other Border county mainly because Donegal tourism depended to a large extent over the years on the majority population in the Six Counties who used to delight in holidaying in Donegal. He called for Dubliners to visit Donegal.
He talked about the desirability of an annual shutdown. I suppose Senator Loughrey has had an experience that many of us had, who kept on working throughout August, and found — when we were looking for information or to establish contacts and so on — many people had gone on holiday and it was a foolishness to continue one's attempts in that month. I know in Europe the EC shuts down completely for the month of August and to a certain extent that is true here as well. There is an annual shutdown in areas in Britain, there always has been such because of the industrial situation. I am thinking of the Scotch Fair — I think that is what they call it — some time in July when Donegal at that time was visited by crowds of Scots people. The Wake's Fair was the Manchester version of that. There may be something in it that it would be helpful but if we let everybody off here on holiday at the height of the tourist season perhaps it would impact on our visitors as well.
Senator Mooney emphasised strongly how disparate was the tourist industry, how difficult it was to pull the strands together. He talked about the traditional British holidaymaker. His experienced of them is much the same as mine. In the Drumshanbo area of County Leitrim where incidently they have a nice little swimming pool, where they have an Aras Ceóil, where Senator Mooney's father holds the Tóstal each year, they have a very nice little tourist set-up. They depend to a great extent on that type of tourist to keep the tourism business going in the area. Senator Mooney talked about the brand image, as did other Senators. I am sure that what these Senators had to say will be of interest to Bord Fáilte. Senator Mooney wanted a positive image of the country put across. He talked about the wide open spaces being something that the French go in for, that the Germans fish for a certain type of coarse fish. That is true. By the way, I want to tell him that there has been a limitation on the number of pike that natives or visitors can take out of the rivers in my constituency for some time; there are rules on it.
Senator Mooney also said he was anxious to have Acre's Lake joined up to Lough Allen. He thought that would be a better investment than spending money on the canal in my constituency. I will have to disillusion him on that. The other would be the better investment, but I do not think I will be making either investment in the very near future. Like Martin Luther King, I have a dream about that whole area — upper and lower Lough Erne, the Erne River, the link to the Shannon, right down to Limerick, the waterway there. Senator O'Toole when he was speaking referred to the Norfolk Broads. I was on it once and, as I said, a prow was on a stern; that was the extent of manoeuvre one had. There are acres upon acres of lake and river in that area of the Erne and the potential for development is great. There is an airport at Enniskillen. When properly organised, there are lakes that could take you from Ballyshannon to Limerick city. The potential for the future is great but we may have all passed on by the time its potential begins to be realised. In the meantime it is being developed to the extent that is possible within the constraints. The political situation has also had a deleterious effect on developments in that area as well.
Senator Joe O'Toole said it was a challenge to sell Ireland — I agree with him — and that is interesting for a Minister, and I accept that fully in the spirit in which he said it. It is a challenge; it is not a matter of romance, it is a matter of pragmatism, of hard sell. It is a matter of trying to preserve our product from the damage that can be done to it as a result of modern living. He did say — and in this he was backing the view of a number of Senators — that it was important to identify the product and that, having identified it, then one sold it.
I remember the particular area of Port Salon mentioned by Senator Loughrey. I remember talking to a Scot who was a schools inspector in the Six Counties. That was his career. He had been in the British Army during the war and became a schools inspector in the Six Counties. He always went to the Port Salon area — not to that hotel but to a guesthouse — he, his wife and family year after year. He told me that as they were leaving having had a particularly unfortunate experience with the weather that summer he took a vote, being a democratic father, of all the family in the car as to whether the bad weather would deter them from returning the following year. The vote was unanimous: they would come back there. The fact that they had had a bad experience with the weather that year did not indicate to them that it was a place in which they should not spend their holidays again. This would put in context what many Senators have said and what we all know, that we are not selling the weather, although it is not quite as bad as we ourselves think it is. As Senator O'Toole said, we have to become pragmatic and positive.
One of my pet hobbyhorses was touched upon, which was our food. We have an opportunity to declare ourselves an additive free, hormone free area for food and we are damn fools if we do not take that opportunity. We are only going to damage ourselves if we do not. I know there is a cult of natural foods, of organic foods and that is a fringe grouping. There is much sense in that. We thought that the CND people were crackpots until sheep on the Wicklow mountains were affected by the Chernobyl explosion. There are a small group of people going in for organic food. They will not eat an apple unless there is evidence that a maggot has bored a hole in it, to guarantee that there was no additive or poison that would do damage to their health.
If we could establish an additive free, hormone free, adulterant free food reputation, we could charge premium prices for our product. We can do it. Will we do it? I do not know. The law has been put in place with regard to meats. Some people say it is being flouted. There is an obligation on every Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas and every public spirited person to indicate that what we want is free, clean and wholesome food.
Senator O'Toole mentioned the tourist menu and its popularity. That was established in other countries, particularly in Spain very early on. I was in Spain in the University of Zaragoza in the year when 500,000 was the maximum number of people who visited Spain. It is today something like 35 million people per annum or more. This, of course, impacts very heavily on the economy. It is one of the buttresses of the Spanish economy. They had the tourist menu and they had the paradors which were State owned because the standards were very low. Standards of hygiene were low; standards of bed and accommodation were low. They had no idea about tourism but they developed and developed strongly since then. They developed in a way, in parts of the country, in which I would not like to see Ireland developing but it is an indication that you can jump from 500,000, admittedly with their allies, the sun, charter flights and so on. That kind of increase is linked to the provision of good service.
As Senator O'Toole and I have said, hotels are not built to create jobs. They are built to make profits for the people who are investing in them. Tourism is a labour intensive industry. That is the beauty of it; the personal service is basic and essential in it and no amount of development of automata of any kind will replace the person in the tourist industry. That is why it is an industry that can laugh at the future of automatic machines and so on. There are dispensers and so on and they may cut down on the numbers, but still there will be large numbers of people required in the tourist industry.
We have had contact for some time between the Six County tourist people and ourselves. Brochures covering areas from south Down, the Mournes, right down to Monaghan, Cavan, Leitrim and Fermanagh have already been produced. On a number of occasions I have met Mr. Hoey who is the development man in County Fermanagh. The co-operation is strong. Mr. Hoey never misses any of our tourist functions South of the Border and we visit him in Fermanagh also. It is unfortunate that more people do not visit Counties Down, Antrim, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh. More people are sneaking up around the County Down coast nowadays, exploring the Glens of Antrim and going out to Rathlin Island and back through Derry to Donegal. It is a magnificent area. It is quite safe. How can we expect people to believe us that this country is safe for tourists if we are afraid to travel in it?
Senator O'Toole and other Senators emphasised the importance of camps and caravans. I was glad, because I was less wise in this matter than the Senator. He said standards are well improved and compare favourably with anything he experienced on the Continent. Senator O'Toole indicated that camps and caravans compare very favourably from the point of view of costing. He stressed the lack of picnic or lay-by areas and said that those that existed were not looked after properly.
The Senator commended the OPW on their care and the work they did on historic sites. He talked of tapes for information and I would commend that. He stressed what I have mentioned already, the importance of walking tours for the future. The best idea Senator O'Toole came up with was the multipurpose leisure centre which could be used as a dramatic centre, as a meeting place and also for many purposes, both connected with the life of the community and useful in the tourist industry as well.
In Enniskillen, on the shores of Lough Erne, they have developed a theatre. Senator O'Toole mentioned that it was difficult to find a theatre in our provincial towns. Ireland is better in that regard, because of the amateur drama movement, than most other countries. There are in the United States very sizeable cities, cities as large as the city of Cork, where there is no theatre. We are not culturally impoverished. I accept the suggestion that Senator O'Toole made about leisure centres in our small towns.
The Senator emphasised very strongly the clean water campaign and how we should pay particular attention to it. He is holding out very strongly for fish from Dingle. I am a member of the ridge Angling Club at Greystones and I am prepared to eat any fish I catch when I am out fishing in the Irish Sea. If sparks begin to come out of me some time before this debate is over, Senators will know what is happening. Senator O'Toole said, and I am not fully aware of this, that sea angling seems to have died down along the west coast. I know that Achill used to have a major sea angling festival and so did Moville in Donegal. I must have a look at that area to see how much activity there is now.
As regards pollution of inland lakes, unfortunately I am an expert on that as far as Lough Sheelin is concerned. The highest concentration of pigs in western Europe is at Sheelin. It gives employment; it makes a profit for its owners. There are two or three large owners in the area. However, it has had an effect on what is regarded as one of the great trout lakes of Europe. From the last century, even, I have guide books indicating that it was known on the Continent as a great trout lake.
I would like to emphasise as strongly as I can that I subscribe to the philosophy that we are simply guardians of this inheritance, guardians of our environment for the time we have it and that we must pass it on. If we allow such lakes as Lough Sheelin to die, there will be a grave responsibility on us. I want to tell the House that about 15 years ago or so the mayfly was very prolific on Sheelin. I remember visiting somebody at Clover House at the eastern part of the lake and leaving my car outside the caravan where the person was parked. When I came out my car and the caravan were covered with mayfly. Not a single mayfly has appeared on Lake Sheelin for many years now. There was a commitment to clean the lake up and to start the cycle of life for the mayfly again. I hope to live to see that day and to play a part in it because, as I say, there is an obligation on me, as there is on every citizen, in that regard.
I thank Senator Farrell, the concluding speaker, for complimenting the people from the Kilnaleck area on their efforts in the Year of the Environment to do something about a wasteland near them. The Senator regretted that it was not publicised and so do I. Scandals are petulantly highlighted while achievements on the plus side are very often forgotten. He hoped also that the air deal, which we fell short of achieving in the council of Ministers would be achieved because this will impact on our tourism. I know Senator Farrell is a member of a local authority and he will be committed to keeping towns tidy and litter free. He boasted of blue ribbons at three places in Sligo. Senator McEllistrim who was sitting beside me indicated that two blue ribbons were achieved also, I am glad to say, by Ballybunion and lonely Banna Strand in County Kerry. Senator Farrell indicated that 33,000 visitors had signed the book at Drumcliffe where Yeats is buried. That is very impressive. Somebody should be appointed who would be able to give a little of the history of the area to visitors. A person who goes there to see Yeats' grave usually will know a little about Yeats, but he or she can be fitted in to the general picture in Benbulben's shade. I could not help remembering a wit commenting on the inscription "Horseman pass by" on the tombstone. While the certificate examinations were on he changed that to "Pass man horse by" in the hope that he would pass his examination.
Senator Farrell said Bord Fáilte were not paying the attention to the west that they should. Without making an objective study I do not know if this is true. However from the contributions made by Senators McGowan, Loughrey, Farrell, O'Connor and the people from the west in general, it sounds as if it needs looking into. There is a case to be disproved after the contributions we heard.
Mar a dúirt mé nuair a thosnaigh mé, a Chathaoirligh, bhí mé ag ceapadh go mbeadh díospóireacht bhríomhar againn, go mbeadh na moltaí a thiocfadh os na Seanadóirí úsáideach dom mar Aire Turasóireachta. Tá mé buíoch dos na Seanadóirí as an méid a dúirt siad, as an díospóireacht bhreá, bhríomhar a bhí againn agus tá súil agam go rachaidh sé sin chun sochair dúinne sa tír seo agus don tionscal turasóireachta.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".
I want to thank the Minister for the very comprehensive reply he made.
Senators
Hear, hear.
Since I came into the Seanad I have not heard such a comprehensive reply to a debate. What we had was a major seminar on tourism and its implications for this country. The Minister has played a major part in ensuring that the industry was well debated. Criticisms were expressed and we took a forward look at the tourist industry. I do not want to fawn on the Minister but I want to express my appreciation for the very comprehensive reply he gave us.
And the appreciation of all of us.
I concur with that.
Question put and agreed to.
The Seanad adjourned at 10.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9 July 1987.