Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Oct 1987

Vol. 117 No. 4

Local Authority Funding: Motion.

Mr. Doyle

I move:

That Seanad Éireann condemns the indiscriminate and unplanned cuts in Local Authority funding and calls on the Government to indicate in detail how it proposes to finance, secure and maintain services and employment for 1988.

It is very appropriate on two accounts that Seanad Éireann should be debating this motion tonight. At present city and county managers together with their staff are preparing a set of estimates which will come before the elected members in the next month or so. Yesterday the Government published the Book of Estimates, one section of which deals specifically with the amount available for salaries and expenses in the Office of the Minister for the Environment, including grants to local authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing and miscellaneous schemes, subsidies and grants including certain grants-in-aids.

When the rates on domestic dwellings were abolished in 1978 and the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (No. 2) Act, 1983, was passed liability for paying rates was transferred to central Government. Unfortunately, the increase in the rate of poundage fell considerably below the rate of inflation. In 1983 the limit on poundage increase, which had been imposed from each year from 1978 onwards, was lifted by virtue of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (No. 2) Act, 1983. The State was formally authorised to make a grant of an annual amount payable by reference to the domestic rate valuation. By 1987, the pertinent facts as regards rates as the source of income for local authorities were——

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry to interrupt you Senator, but if you could get nearer to the microphone it might help.

Mr. Doyle

While the rate poundage had increased by a certain percentage in the period since 1978 the rates support grant had increased by a much lesser percentage. In the present year there was a cutback of 3 per cent in the rates support grant to local authorities and next year local authorities will find themselves, according to the Book of Estimates, with a cutback of 12 per cent in the rates support grant which amounts to £31 million.

I am sure that during this debate Members will speak about the problems they fact in their own local authorities. I can only speak on behalf of the local authority which I represent and the problems we face in relation to the cutbacks in the rates support grant and the effect that will have on services and employment. The impact on the rate support grant for the city of Dublin amounts to £4.7 million and, when inflation is added, it will be well over £5 million. The local authorities have not been given any clear guidelines on how to deal with this shortfall in local authority funding except to increase service charges or cut back on services.

Prior to the 1985 local elections Dublin Corporation were imposing — as I am sure other local authorities were — service charges to help finance the necessary services and keep people in employment. The service charges were passed by the city council against the total opposition of the Fianna Fáil group. Indeed the leader of the Fianna Fáil group at that time stated publicly that he was not prepared to pay his water charges and incited the public to do likewise, which I thought was a most irresponsible position to take.

Fianna Fáil in their local election manifesto of 1985 said they were totally opposed to the system of local charges and on returning to office would abolish these charges and repeal the legislation under which they were imposed. They also promised to introduce new legislation which would end the present unsatisfactory position and put local finances on a sound basis. I ask the Minister: where is this new legislation to put local authority finances on a sound basis? Unfortunately, we will find that the very opposite is the case if we examine the Book of Estimates carefully in relation to the Department of the Environment. The manifesto went on further to state that the legislation which I am speaking about would provide that local authorities would receive a guaranteed statutory contribution each year from the central Exchequer and this contribution would be sufficient to provide for a satisfactory level of necessary services. It went on further to say that the new legislation would eliminate the present uncertainty whereby local authorities could not anticipate what the grant from central Exchequer each year would be and this compelled city and county managers to impose a new unacceptable level of service charges against the wishes of the great majority of the local communities.

I say to the Minister that every seat which the Fianna Fáil party won in the local elections in 1985 was won by a process of deception. Now in Government they once again deceive the people. In view of the position which the Fianna Fáil group in Dublin Corporation took prior to the 1985 local elections it is now impossible for that local authority to impose service charges even if they wished to do so. The only alternative is to cut back services and employment. We saw an example of this already this year. The estimates prepared by the city manager provided for an income of £3½ million from service charges. The Fianna Fáil group who control the council were totally opposed to it and examined each estimate in detail and reduced them by the necessary £3½ million and by doing so cut back on services. This has already started to cut back on employment. It is not good enough for the Fianna Fáil leader on Dublin Corporation to say, presumably with his party's authority, that the reintroduction of service charges will not be allowed and that every job within Dublin Corporation is under threat. This mean, in effect, that every service currently being provided by that authority is equally at risk. If it is at risk in the current year, how much more will it be at risk next year when in this year's estimates we have to find an extra £5 million?

When local authorities cut back on services they cut back on employment. As I have stated previously, when we cut back on employment in the first instance we cut back on those people who are carrying out the maintenance work in the different departments of the local authorities, people working in the front line, the maintenance workers and the unskilled. It is the manual workers who will go first. This will leave the local authorities with top heavy administrative and professional staff with a much reduced labour force to carry out their work.

There are other unsocial aspects of the present cutbacks in local authority funding, especially in relation to the library services. I am sure this affects every other local authority the same way as it affects Dublin city and county. I understand that this year in County Dublin libraries had to close for one month because they could not afford to pay the staff. I know that in Dublin Corporation where we have always prided ourselves on providing an excellent library service and made capital expenditure on building libraries — especially the central library in the ILAC centre which is the pride of Dublin Corporation — we now find that we cannot employ staff or buy books to run that library as we would like to run it.

The figures the Government have produced in the Book of Estimates will have one serious effect. They are by their very nature deflationary and will cause unemployment. The Government should be providing a climate to prepare people for the increase in unemployment. The past Administration provided in the Estimates funding for amenity services and amenity grants for local communities. This was reduced last year from £6 million to £4 million and next year it will disappear. Where there is unemployment in a community it puts pressure on society. If there are people within the community good enough and willing to give their time to help with community projects, the Government of the day have a moral responsibility to support these organisations. Amenity grants to provide community centres and other facilities in society are essential. I ask the Minister and the Government to consider the line they have taken in this matter.

New house grants, house improvement grants and the £5,000 surrender grant have all been scrapped. This has led to the inevitable and vastly more costly consequence of a build up in the council houses application lists. This represents potential extra capital and maintenance expenditure on the State and on the taxpayers. It is a move that defies any rational explanation. These grants are still in operation in the Gaeltacht designated areas. If the scrapping of these grants nationally is right — and I am not saying that is so — it must be wrong that they should continue for one section of our population. The opposite is equally valid.

In their 1985 manifesto Fianna Fáil stated that they would raise the annual housing output to 30,000 that this greatly expanded housing programme was designed to meet the real housing needs of the growing population and would provide a major boost for employment. They further stated that 50,000 unemployed building workers and their families and the 35,000 families waiting for homes could look with confidence to Fianna Fáil to meet their needs. How hollow that sounds now. Deception again, complete deception on the most vulnerable people in our society. This is the Year of the Environment. An Foras Forbartha, the body charged with important environmental and pollution control and monitoring facilities, are not to be strengthened but abolished and this at a time when pollution in our lakes and waterways has reached an amazing level.

I would like to refer to the Book of Estimates in relation to rates on Government property. In the past the Government have made payable to local authorities rates in respect of property owned by the Government in each local authority area. That amounted to £13 million last year. Dublin Corporation would be the greatest beneficiary because the majority of Government buildings are in this area. In the commercial grant area that amounted to £7 million.

I want to refer to something that has come to my attention. When local authorities increased their commercial rate last year they did not receive the compensating increase from the Government in the rate payable on Government property. When we examine the Book of Estimates this year we find that the same provision in the Estimates for rates on Government property amounting to £13 million is provided. If local authorities increase the commercial rate again this year, they will not be compensated by central Government for that increase on Government property. This is a very indirect way of reducing the revenue of local authorities and it is another way of increasing the amount that has been reduced on the rate support grant. It is very unfair that this should be happening.

While speaking about the commercial rate it is improtant to draw attention to the fact that local authorities derive a certain income from the commercial rate. Indeed, some authorities do far better than others. In Dublin the amount from the commercial rate is something like £51 million. If we do not continue to provide services for the business community there will be a reluctance by them to pay the commercial rate. As everyone will appreciate, business is difficult at present and there is a growing feeling among the business community that they are not receiving from the local authorities the services they deserve. With the cutbacks in local authority funding I find that not alone will we not be able to provide the services, but it could happen — and I would hate to see it happen — that there would be some reduction in the amount of money the local authorities receive from the commercial rate.

I ask the Minister when replying to explain the amount referred to as "appropriations-in-aid". I understand these are receipts which the Department of the Environment receive. There is a reduction of 36 per cent of that figure in the Estimate. I would be thankful if I could have an explanation on that issue.

Before I conclude I want to say that there now is a responsibility on the councils controlled by Fianna Fáil to prepare and sanction estimates during the coming year which will provide adequate services for the people they represent.

Mr. Kennedy

I would like to second the motion "that Seanad Éireann condemns the indiscriminate and unplanned cuts in Local Authority funding and calls on the Government to indicate how it proposes to finance, secure and maintain services and employment for 1988." One of the biggest cuts in the Book of Estimates is the reduction of £145 million in the budget of the Department of the Environment for 1988. As has been indicated by Senator Doyle the rates support grant for local authorities will be reduced by £31 million and substantially less money will be provided for spending on roads, housing, water and sanitary services which are all important and essential services.

In supporting this motion I condemn and deplore the dismal performance of the Minister for the Environment and the Fianna Fáil Administration. No political party ever promised so much in the field of Irish local government than Fianna Fáil in Opposition and no Government have ever so totally failed to deliver on those promises than Fianna Fáil in Government. Today Irish local government has no champion at the Cabinet table. Since his appointment as Minister for the Environment, Deputy Flynn has presided over the steady demise of a great Department of State. Behaving in a role appropriate to a liquidator he has run down his Department and allowed it to be almost decimated. All initiatives have been stifled; all change and developments stopped; and staff have been demoralised and demotivated. Abandoned also has been a range of important housing initiatives in the interest of home owners and a range of public works across the local authority spectrum. Major initiatives which were launched by the previous Minister for the Environment, Deputy Boland, for the development of public parks and amenities have all be abandoned.

I support this motion because as a local authority member I believe one of the fundamental tenets of a political system is the importance of democracy and it is at local level that the democratic process is most effective. The 1971 White Paper on Local Government stated:

The real argument for the provision of local services by local authorities is that a system of Local Government is one of the essential elements of democracy.

It is for that reason that I strongly advocate far-raching reform of our local government structures, functions and finances and the establishment of a partnership with central Government so that we can achieve true local government and not mere administration. In Ireland, unlike most other European countries, local government has no positive constitutional status and the lack of autonomy and the restricted and narrow range of services provided by local authorities have been criticised by many bodies, commissions and the Devlin report. It was summed up by Tom Barrington, a former director of the Institute for Public Administration, in the following words:

The general drift of Irish Local Government is to give elected representatives less duties to be responsible for and in relation to the duties left less responsibility and discretion.

It is for that reason, therefore, that I advocate that the powers and functions of local authorities be widened and that there be a reduction of the detailed controls exercised by the Department of the Environment. Surely it is not Utopian to look forward to a system by which central Government reserve to themselves only a small portion of the functions of government, those that are genuinely central and indivisible, and devolve on local authorities all the detailed business of government. The task of modernising and strengthening local government is a major and vital undertaking and I urge the Minister for the Environment and the Government to accord to this undertaking the importance and priority which it deserves.

Central, of course, to the whole question of effective local government is the question of finance. I endorse the decision taken some years ago to abolish domestic rates and I am totally opposed to their reintroduction in any shape or form. Therefore, I urge the Government, as I urged the previous Government, to abolish the system of service charges because they are unsatisfactory and unworkable and are seen by the public as an element of double taxation. In calling for the abolition of service charges and their replacement by a reasonable allocation from national taxation, I emphasise that wastefulness and spendthrift learnings cannot be tolerated and that it behoves all of us in local government at central and local level to be vigilant and to ensure that cost-effectiveness in our operations is the hallmark of the local government system. The chief complaint of local authorities is not the lack of power to collect funds but the lack of autonomy and discretion to spend the reasonable amounts of money which are allocated to them from central funds.

Therefore, I advocate the setting up of a national finance council on the lines of the Dutch system. In Holland the municipalities enjoy considerable latitude in the management of their domestic affairs even though central Government contribute in excess of 90 per cent to local funds. The degree of local autonomy in Holland is higher than in any other European country. The Dutch authorities operate a municipal fund administered by the national finance council, the majority of whose members are nominated by local authorities. The proceeds of national taxation are disbursed on a defined basis without arbitrary consideration. The central Government do not seek to strengthen their control in return for this heavy subvention. It is possible to conclude with some degree of certainty that a good local government system can operate without undue interference from central Government and that the quality of the local government system is not determined by the extent of its own fund-raising powers. It is within the competence of a good political system to finance local government services out of the yield of national taxation and it is not necessary in doing so to impose constraints which may inhibit the proper development of good local government which is so essential to our democratic system.

It is regrettable and to be deplored and condemned that all we got from the Minister for the Environment and the Government is a virtual abandonment at the Cabinet table of the Department of the Environment as an agency which can stimulate the construction industry, develop our infrastructure, encourage the concept of home ownership of which we are justly proud and provide adequately for those who cannot house themselves. An article in The Cork Examiner of 14 October stated:

Are we now throwing almost every conceivable service and every last vestige of humanity out of the window in order to satisfy the demands of international money moguls?

Of course the national debt must be reduced. Of course the mindless borrowing must be repaid. But does it all have to be done at once—

in one fell swoop—

with such suffering and such deprivation?

These are the questions which the publication of the Budget Estimates prompts. Essentially they come down to one: are we, with all our indebtedness, losing sight of the reality of this small island and going too far, too fast, in terms of corrective measures?

We suggest now that we are. I would like to suggest to the Minister of State here this evening that we are, in fact, going too far in the corrective measures and in the massive cutbacks local authorities are now experiencing in the level of their funding. Therefore, I strongly support this motion and I call on this Government to provide a proper level of funding to finance, secure and maintain services and employment for 1988.

Mr. Fitzsimons

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"takes note of the level of local authority financing for 1988 and the Government's determination to restore order in the public finances as an essential prerequisite for national recovery."

In the closing days of the last Government many people were disillusioned and cynical and said we should put the running of this country up for contract, that we were unable to run the country ourselves and should give countries like Taiwan, Japan and even third world countries an opportunity to run it because they could not do worse than we were doing or than the last Government did.

This is a Fine Gael motion and the Fine Gael Party were the senior party in the previous Government. It is fair to say that the Taoiseach had diagnosed the problem: we were on the brink of the precipice. The Minister for Finance had done likewise and the spokesman for the Government had diagnosed the problem. They were inhibited or prohibited from doing what should have been done and, as a consequence, the national debt doubled in their term of office. Everybody would agree, irrespective of what party they belong to, that we are very fortunate that the previous Government are not in power. Along the way they told us that reform in the local authority area was required and they promised us reform. It was never delivered and all they did was to tamper with the constituencies for the local government elections. It is obvious to all that Fianna Fáil will not shirk their responsibilities in Government.

There are people who admit that major surgery is necessary and they ask the question: will the patient survive? We need have no fear about the patient surviving. It is evident that we are witnessing what must be the greatest miracle since the raising of Lazarus from the dead. This country has been pulled up by its bootlaces and all the indications are that a major improvement is just around the corner.

Regarding this motion, priority will be given to road workers and lower paid workers. There will be provision for services and improved services. On a national scale at present local authority finance committees are doing very good work and we are getting good value for money spent. I recall that in the last Seanad we had a debate on the state of county roads. At present in my county, and I think on a national scale, roads are in good condition. There is no comparison with the potholed roads of that time.

This motion was tabled in advance of publication of the Book of Estimates. Therefore, it was not known at that time what would be in the book. While it is the duty of the Opposition to criticise — and it is easy to criticise — it is only fair to point to the fact that this motion was tabled at a time when nobody outside the Government knew what would be in the Book of Estimates. When we look at the Book of Estimates we see that there are increases in certain areas, and that should not be overlooked. Also in passing I should say — as Senator Lanigan said earlier today — that we should give credit to the Government for bringing out the Book of Estimates at least three months earlier than any previous Government. That is important. It is obvious that the Government are working hard and are in earnest about this problem.

When we look at the Book of Estimates under the heading "Environment" we see, for example, that there is an increase of 21 per cent over the 1987 Estimate for postal and telecommunications services. We see an increase of 1 per cent for local authority housing subsidy, an increase of 14 per cent under the heading "D.2. — Grants For New Houses". There is an increase of 100 per cent under D.6. — Private Rented Dwellings — Determination Of Terms Of Tenancy. There is an increase of 22 per cent under D.7. — Grants To Housing Finance Agency plc. There is an increase of 4 per cent for Water Supply and Sewerage etc. Subsidies. There is an increase of 7 per cent in Recoupment of Expenditure In Respect of Register of Electors. It is only fair to point to those.

Since the motion is critical of the decreases, it is only right and proper that I should point to the increases and overall there is a decrease of 11 per cent. This is not indiscriminate and unplanned as stated in the motion. With regard to the rates support grant there is nothing new in the reductions. I want to refer to the urban district council of which I am a member, Ceannas Mór Urban District Council, and give the shortfall since 1982. In 1982 the shortfall was £2,282; in 1983, it was £3,459; in 1984, it was £9,978; in 1985, it was £13,116; in 1986, it was £29,227; in 1987, it was £56,961. We see there the situation initiated by the Coalition Government which grew gradually over the years. There is nothing new in that. Regarding Meath County Council to the end of last year there was a shortfall of about £7 million going back to 1982 and for 1987 there is a shortfall of about half that figure again. We must remember that over the past three years — and it is fair to say this; and I have always given credit where I felt credit should be given irrespective of what Government were in power — supplementary welfare, for which the local authorities originally had to provide, was phased out and the drainage demand is being phased out since last year. It is important to point that out particularly in respect of my own county of Meath where the drainage demand would be exceptionally heavy on account of the Boyne drainage scheme. It is important to point out that the Government are taking this in charge and providing the finances for it.

The national situation is serious and in today's press we are told that the Taoiseach warned that even after the cuts were made the deficit would remain stubbornly high. There is no need to quote any more of that but it is quite a long quotation. In his speech in Sligo on 31 July the Minister for Finance told us that in 1982 when Fianna Fáil were last in Government there were 169,900 out of work, the national debt was £12 billion and interest rates were cripplingly high. He went on to give in some detail the steps taken by the Fianna Fáil Government at that time which brought about a marked improvement but that in a disastrous four and a half years the national debt doubled to £24 billion when the Coalition Government were in office. Despite this, investment remained weak, unemployment rose to 250,000 with all that implies in terms of human misery, 100,000 of our young people emigrated, real interest rates rose crippling enterprise and there was little or no growth. He asked us to reflect on the enormity of the £24 billion. A figure of £24 billion is hard to comprehend. It is costing us nearly £2,000 million this year to pay interest on this debt alone.

There are many demands on the local authorities and they are rising to this situation. It is only fair that we should pay tribute to the manner in which the local authorities are meeting this problem and providing the services.

Senator Kennedy referred to rates. Many people feel that rates should be brought back. I am not saying whether they should or they should not, but there are people who feel that they should be brought back. When rates were abolished the Fine Gael Party also were determined to abolish them. It was not the Fianna Fáil Party alone. Indeed, it is fair to say all parties felt that rates should be abolished. Also it must be pointed out that one of the major considerations regarding the abolition of rates was that they were inequitable. Two elderly people had to pay the same rates for their property as a wealthy family in the same type of house in the same street. That inequity was inherent in the system and that was the major reason rates were abolished. I do not know if rates will be brought back, but consideration will have to be given to every aspect of the system and that would be one consideration.

Senator Kennedy, if I understand him correctly, is also saying "no" to service charges but in this day and age we all realise that, if a service is to be provided, somebody must pay for it. He referred also to the reduction in interest charges for the money moguls, as he called them. That is not altogether the full picture. It is necessary to reduce interest rates but, by reducing interest rates, we are helping the small individual also. For example, the interest charged to an individual who intends to build a new house or extend his existing house will have serious implications for him. If we continue along the path we are going with interest rates decreasing that person will be in a very strong position.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has two minutes to conclude.

Mr. Fitzsimons

This is an important debate and nobody can do justice to it in 15 minutes. I would like a longer period to deal with all its aspects. For example, I would like to deal in some detail with the Programme for National Recovery which is an important element and I would like to pay tribute to the unions, the employers, the representatives of the agricultural community and all the different parties to that recovery. I would like to examine in depth the implications of providing funds for local authorities. In the Journal of the Institute of Public Administration of Ireland, 1986, Volume 34, No. 2, there is an article on Local Revenue Sources for Local Government — The Continuing Debate. We need to have an indepth debate rather than trying to embarrass the Government because the Government will not be embarrassed. The Government will not be deflected from their drive and it is obvious to everybody that the Government are succeeding. I pay tribute to the Fine Gael Party who have decided to support the Government in their efforts from a patriotic and national point of view because they feel this is the proper thing to do and that it is necessary.

In conclusion, Senator Doyle referred to the promises made by Fianna Fáil and how hollow they may sound now. When the Government, after a period in office, have succeeded in reducing the national debt, have got things moving again, have reduced emigration and have done everything positive that can be done and that they want to do, it will be obvious that their promises were anything but hollow.

Mr. McGowan

I welcome the opportunity to comment on this motion. It is a good motion to talk about but hard to deliver on. I was not much different from any other member of the Fianna Fáil Party or the public prior to the election and, coming from a part of the country where development and expenditure are always welcome and necessary, I was very interested and I criticised the Administration in power before the general election. We were aware of the negotiations that went on and, certainly to my knowledge, the Fianna Fáil Party did not vote the previous Government out. At the time we had substantial announcements about expenditure. In Sligo a new hospital was announced costing £46 million and not long after the election it was discovered that the present Government had the unpleasant duty of paying off nurses, which was a complete contrast. We were led to believe, prior to the general election, that money was no problem, that there was no need for restrictions and yet when Fianna Fáil were elected we, in the same health board region, in the very same local authority, were faced with the unpleasant and difficult task of paying off people.

Are the Government responsible and acting responsibly? We have to come up with an assessment. The general public have now accepted that we were on the road to disaster. Certainly people will lose jobs, people will be made redundant and there will be redeployment. This is the lesser of two evils. We now know that we were reaching the point where there would be no future for our young people. Many of them were aware of it. Educated young people saw the writing on the wall and that started the emigration because the future was getting dimmer every day.

This motion indicates that the Government cuts were unplanned. I think they were very well planned. I do not know of any other Government in the past 50 years who put more effort into planning exactly what they should do. The vast majority of people in rural Ireland fully understand the situation. If you have an assessment, or a Gallup poll, or any other kind of consensus tomorrow you will find that the average person is fairly intelligent.

Fine Gael are supporting the Government in the broad measures but do not agree with how they are being implemented. They are entitled to do that. I would not claim to be an economist but it is simple to understand and simple to interpret that the Government are indicating that waste has got to be eliminated and economies have got to be effected. I welcome those directions from Government level because in the whole area of administration within this country from the caretaker in a local authority courthouse building right up to the President in the Phoenix Park, there were reams of waste. We are buying oil and paying for expensive heating and people will hardly turn off the heat or adjust it.

I know of a regional college where if one switch is put on, 90 lights go on. We had reached the stage when we did not care about our future. We were drifting into space. That is my assessment. We were spending £60 million in my local authority down in Donegal and we will now get a cut of £4 million. I could suggest in this Chamber why we will save £4 million. We were at the stage in my local authority where we had a machinery yard to which we allocated so much a year and the machinery yard could never spend it. Towards the end of the year they had to purchase 20 lorries to use up the money. We were out of control, drifting like a space ship.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

More recently——

Mr. McGowan

Let me say that the people who make those remarks might not know what is happening in their own local authority.

Mr. Ferris

The Senator might be surprised.

Mr. McGowan

I am using the words "might not" because people are more vocal here and those who can play the record actually might be far away from the grassroots. I say that every local authority in Ireland was duplicating. We had reached the stage when it did not count if a fellow came in or not. The doctor's certificates came in for planning officers and engineers. We had engineers in Donegal who would leave their children to school and go back and collect them and call in for a read of the newspaper and for the tea trolly. We had over 60 engineers. We are delighted that the Government have focused attention on expenditure right across the board and that local authorities will have to effect economies. That is long overdue. Every local authority in Ireland will have no difficulty in responding and being a healthier local authority, in ensuring that in future the workforce carry out more efficiently the work they have been doing.

We have been sloppy and lazy and starting at 11 o'clock in the morning. We are about the only country in Europe doing that. In Holland, Belgium and Switzerland the local authorities and the administrative sections switch on the lights in the office at 7 o'clock in the morning. That does not happen here. We have been sloppy and lazy and we have had it too soft for too long. We cannot sustain that because the productivity section was down to about 10 per cent of our total volume of money. The 10 per cent that was going towards the development of productivity was getting smaller and the 90 per cent that it was costing us to administer the little affairs of the country was getting bigger. The pipe was closing and the end was in sight. The majority of the people know exactly there is nothing sensational in the Government's action. It was overdue. It is accepted by a massive majority within the country. The people who do not accept it just do not understand. They are out of touch but their supporters on the ground understand.

In 1987, our local authority in Donegal got double the money for county roads they got the previous year. That is on notice, thanks to the Minister present.

Mr. Doyle

Will the Senator now tell us where the money is going?

Mr. McGowan

I will but I must get time. For the first time in five years, we made our roads safe to travel on because we had pot holes. My colleague, Senator Loughrey, got a photograph taken of himself and he went in with his shoes — he did not wear wellington boots. I asked him at the county council meeting if he had to walk in it. He was photographed standing in water up to the knees in a pothole in Donegal. His own Government were in charge in this House at the time. The Government recognised that was serious and the first thing that was done — I am glad to say and I compliment those responsible — was that the money being made available for county roads in Donegal County Council was doubled. We used that money wisely and we eliminated most of the potholes and made our county roads passable in County Donegal, thanks to the present Administration and thanks to the Minister. I believe and hope, that even with tight constraints, we will still get increased money for county roads.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has two minutes to conclude.

Mr. McGowan

I will not turn the Seanad Chamber into a county council meeting——

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think you would be let.

Mr. McGowan

——but I could say and will be saying to my own county manager that he can save £4 million without any bother. If you fly over County Donegal or anywhere in the west you will see they are not short of water and stones. We reached the stage when we were importing water and stones into County Donegal. We could not plan to provide road making material and water for our people. That is how resourceful we were.

It is time we recognised that we were going nowhere and were facing disaster with no future for our youth. That is the real crunch of the matter. In County Donegal there are 20,000 young people and seven out of ten will never get a job in their own county if we do not change course. Motions like this show blatant insincerity. They are playing politics with the future of our young people. Young people will not accept them as a serious contribution to secure their future. I compliment every member of the Government. This is the first time during my lifetime in politics that a Government have performed with courage.

Mr. Ferris

When I passed a comment about a previous Minister for the Environment, Deputy Blaney, it was intended as a compliment. On my numerous visits to County Donegal I always admired the work the man had the courage to do when he was in the Department of the Environment. I hope Senator McGowan will accept that. To disclose my closeness to the grassroots, I am a member of two local authorities — duly elected at the head of the poll in each electoral area over a period of years — Tipperary Urban Council and Tipperary County Council which has the honour to be served by an assistant county manager, Mr. Dave Mackey, who comes from county Donegal. He would need a magic wand if he were to perform the wonders Senator McGowan talked about in County Donegal with the estimates that have been intimated to our county manager and, indeed, to the assistant county manager. In Tipperary we are faced with a dilemma as to how we deal with what we consider to be unplanned cuts in the Department of the Environment. The motion asks the Government to spell out how they expect the elected county councillors to maintain services for the people following the abolition of rates. Senator Fitzsimons was correct when he said there was a race against time between the different political parties on the abolition of rates. When rates were abolished by the present Government they promised that the rates support grants would replace the income that would normally be generated by way of rates. That promise has now been reneged on.

We are concerned as to how we can provide the services which we were elected to provide. The figures in the Book of Estimates show an overall reduction, but the rates support grants paid by the Department of the Environment to local authorities were reduced by 12 per cent, a massive £30 million, without proper planning or reorganisation of local authorities. We would like to see local government reorganised and this Government apparently have committed themselves to reorganise it. It is highly dangerous to massively cut spending in a local authority area where valuable and essential statutory services are required to be provided by the local authority with no funding from Central Government. I have strong views on whether we have local government. We have no autonomy whatsoever since the abolition of rates. The select services on domestic premises and rates on small shopkeepers and those who are hard-pressed are our only source of funding.

The Minister and the Government who project an image of courage every day should reorganise local authorities along the lines Muintir na Tíre suggested last weekend at their seminar which was attended by the Minister, Deputy Flynn. He never once referred to the actual proposals for a new democracy for local authorities as suggested by Muintir na Tíre or to the whole concept of what Father Hayes believed — that ordinary people at rural level would be able to represent themselves and make their own decisions. That decision could and should involve financing. The Government when in Opposition — and I am sorry Senator McGowan was not present for the past five years — never stopped harping on the amount of money they would give to local authorities. They promised the sun, the moon and the stars but they suddenly stopped the lights when they realised it was not possible.

We all accept that there are funding problems and financial difficulties but let us not suddenly chop everything without putting an alternative in place. If we do not have the power to replace this massive reduction what will follow? There is no mention of the problem in the plan for national recovery published last week. The Department of the Environment are not even mentioned in it. There are a couple of paragraphs on the construction industry. What did this Government do for the construction industry despite all their promises? The local authorities were a major sector in the construction industry, providing local authority houses and grants, and grants for disabled people. All of these services have been cut without anything being put in their place. I am prepared to sit down with any Government, or any county manager, or any county engineer. The remarks about county engineers were unwarranted. If council members did not use their executive functions to ensure that engineers got to work on time there is no point in talking about it here.

They had power as elected representatives in County Donegal to deal with the problem if they had it. I doubt very much that they had such a problem in Donegal County Council. Local authority members have certain powers but they are afraid of their lives to use them.

In Tipperary we have been afraid to use them. We brought in water charges when it was unpopular to do so and Fianna Fáil said they should never be there. Now when they are one of the sole sources of income left to local authorities, we are expecting to treble them. The Government will not have our support this time because we want to be reasonable with people. People are paying high rents for their local authority houses and with the reduction in funding the local authorities cannot carry out repairs. We will finish up with a stock of local authority houses that will fall to pieces because the tenants will be unable to repair them. We are wiping our hands of the consequences of dismantling our whole investment in infrastructure. For the sake of financial rectitude the Government are allowing all those local authority houses to crumble because it has been intimated to councils that they can no longer carry out repairs. To add insult to injury local authority houses may be sold to the tenants. Most tenants would welcome the opportunity to buy them but the local authority will not carry out the normal pre-sale repairs.

The local authority will not be allowed to use the money from the sale of local authority houses in the same way as they could use it last year. The ratio between revenue and capital income from the sale of local authority houses has been changed. This will ensure that domestic rates which are left in local authority areas will inflict pain and suffering on small shopkeepers and small businesses. Those are the only two sources of funding left, apart from the grant which is smaller by £30 million this year. It is not unreasonable and it is not playing politics to ask a Minister responsible for his Department to explain to this House and to elected members of local authorities how we are to protect our infrastructure, how we are to provide services for people who need services? We cannot just wipe our hands.

We initiated legislation on the control of dogs and on water pollution. What happened to An Foras Forbartha? It was wiped out. An Foras Forbartha was an agency people could look to for some sort of understanding of their problems and was recognised by people as being independent of the Government and the Opposition, with the courage to say what needed to be done. Why was it abolished? What good reason can any Government give for abolishing a body which has a recognised independent and professional view of areas within the local authorities? Why have the County Committees of Agriculture been abolished — statutory bodies with elected members serving the industry and funded by local authorities? The Government cannot expect county councils to fund money directly to ACOT or any other body to deliver an advisory and an educational service to young farmers.

Without representation there will be no taxation and vice versa. If we do not have a voice at local level on the delivery of these services we will not deliver the funds from the rate-payers directly to ACOT at Frascati. The Minister can put that in his pipe and smoke it. That is what local democracy is about. If you remove the elements of local democracy you will have to suffer the consequent lack of direct funding from county councils. What about urban councils? What future have urban councils in the plan of campaign for the abolition of all local democracy by this Government? It was tried once before. Fortunately for the Minister, the man who tried it before is now in another party. Perhaps we may be relieved of the worry that local democracy might suffer. I hope that when people go before the electorate in whatever guise they present themselves, at least when they are elected they represent the people who elected them.

I represent ordinary working people in the Tipperary electoral area, people who need houses, roads, sanitary services, refuse collection, and so on. I assisted in trying to ensure that those who could afford it would pay reasonable contributions for services. We also ensured there were waiver schemes for people who could not afford them. We were not being unreasonable. We bit the bullet when people in the Fianna Fáil Party said there should be no water charges. Councils dominated by the Fianna Fáil Party said they would not have charges. They even promised this year that there would be no water charges. Let us be consistent. I ask Senator McGowan to be consistent about what we are trying to do. Either we are a local democracy with local elected representatives with some power at national level, or we are just rubber stamps to central Government. If that is the concept of local democracy and of local authorities, I do not want to be part of it. When I am elected I have to justify my every action. That is what democracy is about. You do the job to the best of your ability and you fail to get elected if you do not do the job.

I cannot stand by and be a rubber stamp for a Government who decide that everything is now to be cut to the quick without putting something in its place. If the Government want to come up with some alternative funding for local authorities they should tell us about it and the General Council of County Councils and all the other national bodies and local authority members and the municipal authorities of Ireland can discuss it. Elected members are responsible people. They have stated publicly that they are prepared to sit down and discuss other systems of funding. Do not send us away to a wake before we are dead. Let us come up with proposals to ease the system of national funding for local authorities. Let us do it, but do not remove the concept of local democracy without giving us an opportunity to fight for ourselves. I went on a deputation recently to Deputy O'Kennedy in the Department of Agriculture and Food because we were worried about the future role of county committees of agriculture. He asked us to present documentary evidence to him on the role that the county committees play in the concept of agricultural advisory training. We spent two months preparing the paper and since then we have been trying to see him. He did not want to see us when we had it prepared, and overnight he abolished the county committees in these Estimates. That is the problem about these Estimates. In that Book of Estimates there are hidden dangers for all of us. That goes for all Members: Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Independents, Labour Party and all others. We are concerned about what is in that Book of Estimates but we are more concerned about what is not spelt out in the social welfare area and all other areas.

The motion deals specifically with local authority funding. I hope I have convinced Senator McGowan that I know something about local authorities as I have been elected to two of them. If that is not sufficient qualification to speak about the system, I am extremely worried. In south Tipperary the Government cutbacks this year amount to £770,000, and £38,000 in the urban area. What will happen this coming year? Will it be twice as bad? I do not know how we will strike a rate. We are elected to do a job and this Government are making our task almost impossible because they have given us no option for an alternative system of funding. We look for an alternative system to be put in place and then the Government can wash their hands of local authorities because we will look after ourselves. Do not get rid of us because democracy starts at the grassroots, in the villages, towns and at the parish pump where all of us came from and let us not forget it. When you come to Dublin you cannot forget where you come from. I cannot and I am sure Senator McGowan will not be allowed to forget Donegal either.

Mr. S. Haughey

I very much welcome the opportunity to discuss this motion. Such a motion is very timely. It is important at this stage that local authorities have a very serious look at their activities and now is the time, given the Government's commitment to achieve a more efficient, more hardworking and more productive Ireland. Now is the time for local authorities to have a hard critical look at themselves, to fit into that plan and to see how they can become more efficient and provide services in an efficient way. The debate on local authorities and their future is now overdue and I very much welcome the opportunity to discuss them here in the Seanad.

I was a little bit baffled by the motion when I saw it. At first I thought the Fine Gael movers of the motion were condemning the cuts in the rates support grant for local authorities and, incidentally, the first cuts in the rates support grant for local authorities commenced in 1982 under a Fine Gael Government. I understood that the Fine Gael Party yesterday very much welcomed the Estimates and went along with the broad consensus that we need to get the public finances under control.

However, when I looked at the motion again I saw they are not quite condemning the cuts but they are condemning the cuts because they are indiscriminate and unplanned. It is important to be clear about that. I hope I have the right interpretation that they are not condemning the cuts but they are condemning the cuts because they are indiscriminate and unplanned. First, I do not believe the cuts have been indiscriminate and unplanned. I believe they have been planned right throughout the summer. The Government have a very determined plan for local authorities which they have thought out. It is my impression that they have a very decisive plan for local authorities and how they should develop in the next three years. I would not say that the cuts have been unplanned in any. They have been studied in great detail throughout the summer, probably when the rest of us were on holidays.

Mr. Doyle

Where is the plan?

Mr. S. Haughey

I will expand and it will take just a little while longer. The Government's plan is that local authorities must become more efficient. Everybody is in agreement on that. We all know the wastages which occur in local authorities as indeed in other institutions and organisations. Senator McGowan in particular has outlined the wastages in Donegal County Council. We all know that there is a similar story in respect of every other local authority. Vast amounts of money are being wasted and squandered and the general taxpayer has now said they have had enough, that they want services provided in an efficient way. The general public have a right to expect that. Local authorities now must become more efficient. The time has come to stop wasteful expenditure. The general public will not tolerate any more wastage of public funds.

I would like also to congratulate the Minister, Deputy Flynn for making the levels of rate support grants available to local authorities earlier in the year even indeed before the publication of the Book of Estimates. That was a great step, in that for the first time ever local authorities have an opportunity to sit down and examine in a very critical way their expenditure. In particular the local authority managements for the first time ever are beginning to have an inward look at themselves. Because the levels of rate support grants were available to them many weeks in advance, they, too, are having an inward look at themselves and asking how they can improve the services they provide to the public. That is a very welcome step and I congratulate the Minister on it. Most of the rates will be struck by the local authorities in November. That is a very welcome step also.

The second part of the motion asks the Government how they propose to finance, secure and maintain services and employment in 1988. I wonder is that a serious motion at all? Everybody accepts that local authorities are over manned in a number of areas. Let me point to the examples of Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council in relation to their housing construction programme. There are 2,000 people employed in the housing construction section of these two authorities. These include, architects, engineers and so on. Yet not one single house will be built next year by these authorities. Where is the rationale in that? The general public are saying that kind of waste must be discontinued. There are vast amounts involved.

I welcome the Government's redundancy package in an attempt to deal with this situation. Local authorities are now at a critical stage and they have to change. The whole area of maintenance has to be looked at and that is something I am very familiar with particularly in Dublin Corporation. Everybody knows that the maintenance service provided by Dublin Corporation has to be one of the most inefficient services being provided. I am not condemning anybody, either workers, or management. I am just saying that is the situation that has developed over the years. I could give examples for the rest of this evening of the way maintenance services are being provided. The fact of the matter is that it is very difficult to get a maintenance job done. It takes about three or four weeks. This service is not being provided in an efficient way.

Perhaps one way to deal with maintenance is to change to a system of privatisation. I use the term reluctantly because it is a kind of dirty word in Irish politics at present although it is coming into vogue. However, it is seriously being suggested that, given the dissatisfaction of the general public with the maintenance being provided by Dublin Corporation in particular — I am sure the same goes for the other local authorities throughout the country — privatisation might be the way to improve the situation. That is an option which should be examined in the process of having a hard critical look at the functioning of local authorities. It is an option which has to be looked at, too, given the state of the public finances and the finances of local authorities. Given that the maintenance service is not being provided in a satisfactory way I think every encouragement should be given by the Government for local authority tenants to purchase their own homes. That would save a significant amount of money in maintenance. The government should pursue that vigorously during their term of office.

The whole issue of charges has been raised. I know different situations exist in different local authorities. The position in Dublin city and county is that there are no service charges. I think that is the correct decision at present. It is far too easy for a city management or a city council or a county council to come along and say, "sorry, our books do not balance so we are introducing charges," without having a critical look at the operation of their services. First we must have a critical look at the provision of services by local authorities with a view to achieving maximum efficiency. Only then if the books do not balance should charges be considered but there should be no question of the imposition of charges in Dublin city until this inward look at the provision of services has taken place.

Everybody is in agreement that the public finances until recently were out of control. The Government are determined to bring this area under control. The Department of the Environment in particular in the past number of years have gone on a mad spending spree throughout the country. The bills are now coming in for payment in respect of the huge commitments made by that Department. The cupboard is bare so one can understand totally the reason the Government are cutting back on the capital expenditure programme until such time as they sort out the huge debts which had been built up over the years in the Department of the Environment.

As I have been saying throughout my contribution the time has come for the local authorities to look at themselves, become efficient and eliminate the huge waste which occurs. Only when that is done can the issue of reform be looked at. There is no point in reforming, for want of a better word, a rotten system. We have to get the system in order first, get it efficient and get rid of the duplication and the waste. Then the issue of reform of local government can be looked at. I think every member of local authorities would welcome reforms.

Finally, I welcome the Government's determination to bring about national recovery. Never have a Government in such a short space of time achieved so much and indeed achieved widespread support in the community. They are proving themselves a very decisive Government and I am confident that when people look back on this time they will say the present Administration have been particularly good. I am confident that, when the history of this country is written, 1987 will be seen as a decisive turning point in the history of the development of this nation.

Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Daly)

Senator Reynolds has four minutes.

Mr. S. Reynolds

I welcome the Minister to the House. As this is my first time to see him in this House since my election to the Seanad I take this opportunity of wishing him the best of luck in the very hard task he intends carrying out in the next couple of years.

I listened with interest to Senator Haughey. I do not know what divine right Dublin city has not to pay service charges when every other county in the country are paying such charges. It is very unfair that we should have one system for part of the country and another for Dublin city which is the largest area in terms of population. It would alleviate the problem a lot if charges were effected throughout the country. As a member of a local authority I have experienced a few finance meetings in the past couple of weeks. In Leitrim no new housing will be provided. Sanitary services have been curtailed and will be done away with in the 1988 Estimates. The average waiting list for water in the country is 5 per cent of the population but in Leitrim the figure is about 15 per cent. It is very unfair that we have to forego sanitary and water supply services because we are a small, poor county. It is also unfair that water charges are being imposed when we do not have a proper water service. This is something I would ask the Minister to look at. There is urgent need for housing in the county and seeing that we will have no money for building of new houses in next year's Estimate, local authorities are being strangled. I would ask the Minister to contemplate putting money into the maintenance aspect of housing in the country.

Debate adjourned.