I understand that Senator O'Toole was given permission to raise on the Adjournment the proposed closure of the National Social Service Board.
Adjournment Matter. - National Social Service Board.
Acting Chairman
I thank the Minister for making himself available to discuss this matter. Of all the various cuts that have been talked about and all the various cuts that have been looked at over the past couple of weeks — indeed there has been plenty of discussion about them — this underlines, in one sense, all that was wrong and all that was bad about cuts in the Estimates. I have taken the view that many of the cuts are not in any sense cost-effective. We are looking at the National Social Service Board. I do not believe that the proposed closure of the National Social Service Board will save the State one penny. I think, in fact, that it will be worse than that; it will cost the State.
The National Social Service Board are operating since 1971. They co-ordinated social services for people throughout the country. At the moment they maintain 80 community and information centres and give them the information and backup service they need so badly. At the moment they have a grant of approximately £0.5 million per year. The Government are shutting them down and putting forward the view that this will save money for the State. The figures do not add up. If 52 per cent of the total grant goes on salaries and all the personnel of the board have been guaranteed deployment or other work within the Department of Health, on 52 per cent of the total grant there will be no saving whatsoever. Another standing cost is the cost of renting their premises. The rental of their premises is tied up in a five year lease. They attempted to get out of that lease 18 months ago and were unable to do so on legal grounds. The State is committed to the payment of that rent for the next number of years, up to five years — I am not sure of the exact number of years. More than that, they have dealt with over 100,000 queries per year.
The Minister maintains that this work will be taken over by the Department of Health. I fail to understand how the costing on that was done. I ask the Minister to explain to me the average cost per query as worked out by the Minister for Health because it seems that whatever the cost, it will now cost an awful lot more to maintain this service than it did heretofore when it was being run and maintained under the structure of the National Social Service Board.
There is also, to me, a very dangerous position in that I have heard it said that there are many politicians who were not too enamoured with the work of the National Social Service Board and their network of satellite services around the country because many politicians felt that ordinary people were getting information from the different clinics and centres which were working under the aegis of the National Social Service Board, information that the politicians would prefer to be giving out in their own clinics. I have no hard and fast information on that but it has certainly been said to me and I certainly responded to the point. Politicians more than anybody else recognise that information is power and that very often giving is telling even if giving is only giving information.
Therefore, I put it to the Minister that this proposal to close down the National Social Service Board is not cost effective that, in fact, it is a cut that will cost the State money, that it hurts the least protected groups in our society and that it is a politically suspect move. I ask him to explain to me how we are going to continue this service without spending more money on it and to assure me that the rumour I heard, that one particular health board was going to be asked to coordinate and take over the work that was at present being undertaken by the National Social Service Board, is not true. I would ask him to explain to me how this can be justified either socially, economically or financially. Finally, I would like the Minister to also assure me that this proposal will not be implemented.
The Minister for Health, Deputy O'Hanlon, made it clear at the press conference that the services at present provided under the auspices of the National Social Service Board will be continued. There is no question that the community information centres will be allowed to suffer neglect. In fact, it is the intention to review the public information services generally and, in the context of this new plan, we hope useful proposals for the enhancement of the services to the community information services will emerge. I might say that the Department of Social Welfare, notwithstanding that they have a network of local offices of their own and an information service are concerned that the community information centres should continue to function because of their irreplaceable function in helping individuals with their problems about entitlements. At least 50 per cent of the work of the community information centres is about social welfare matters. It is therefore appropriate that the Department of Social Welfare should be the channel for grants of public money for the maintenance of these centres. The Department are considering what arrangement would be best for ensuring that the kind of information to which the centres have been accustomed in relation not only to social welfare matters but to a range of other problems which most public representatives are also aware of, in relation to my own Department, the Department of Health, the Department of the Environment, local authorities, income tax and such like. If the public come to the centres the information will continue to be available. The information bulletins and other publications relevant to the work of the centres will also be maintained. I will not anticipate the precise form of these revised arrangements as they are still being worked out. I can say there will be a public announcement about them very shortly. Certain proposals are before the Government just now.
These new and I hope enhanced information and training arrangements will take place within a broader framework of community development. Certain suggestions are being put to health boards about an extension of their assistance to local social service councils and similar co-ordinated bodies at local level. The encouragement of the formation and growth of local voluntary effort involves direct touch with local opinion and closer relationship between health boards and the voluntary sector. While the decision in relation to the National Social Service Board was based on the need for rationalisation and streamlining, it is fundamentally in pursuance of a policy of development of community services. When the final arrangements are made, Senator O'Toole and others who have expressed concern in relation to the type of work the National Social Service Board were carrying out, will be very satisfied with the arrangements the Government are proposing.
On the basis that the Minister's answer concerns service improvement, is he confirming that there is no financial or economic advantage to the State in closing down the National Social Service Board, that there is, in fact, no financial gain or economic advantage to the State in shutting down this board?
The situation is that all rationalisation which is to take place at the moment would have ultimately some type of saving. Nevertheless, in the circumstances we hope that the service will be provided at the most economical rate.
I think the Minister has answered my question.
The Seanad adjourned at 4.35 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 November 1987.