Thank you for the expression of sympathy on the death of my mother. It is proposed to take Business in the following order: Items Nos. 1, 5, 2 and No. 3 if we have time. Item No. 6 will be taken from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Order of Business.
A Chathaoirligh, on the Order of Business, I am glad that you have called it the Order of Business, because there is virtually no business here at all. I want to raise a general question at this stage. We have no legislation this week. We had none last week. The Order Paper is flimsy today. This session began with a promise of substantial legislation. At present there are three major Bills, the Companies (No. 2) Bill, the Insurance Bill, the Report Stage of the Video Recordings Bill, all of which we are now awaiting in this House. The probability is that we will be asked to rush these Bills through at the end of this session in a totally unsatisfactory way. I want to object in the strongest manner possible to the absence of business in this House this week and last week.
I want to raise a further question, that is on the Extradition (Amendment) Bill. As I understand it, the intention of the Government is to rush this Bill through immediately after it passes in the Dáil. I want to say in the strongest possible terms that such a procedure is totally unacceptable to us. If ever there was a Bill which needs to be carefully reflected upon, and if ever this House had a role in giving its full forensic attention to a Bill, this is it. There is no reason whatsoever that this Bill should not be taken until next week. I can promise the full co-operation of my group, if it is taken next week. Otherwise it is trampling on this House. It is totally unnecessary. There is no urgency. I want to put on record the objection of my group to this Bill being rushed through at the end of this week.
May I join with Senator Manning in his expression of concern, first of all, about today's Order Paper and the lack of any substantive business. Whereas I realise this might not always be the fault of the Leader of the House, he should communicate our views to the Government that as a result of a commitment given here, this House is prepared to work long and tedious hours to do a good job on legislation, which we do not have in front of us.
I would like to follow up on the comments made about the Extradition Bill. We cannot presume what will happen in another place but if the other House disposes of it, I hope it is not the intention of the Leader of the House to sit over the weekend to deal with it. I agree with Senator Manning that it is appropriate that Members of this House should have an opportunity over the weekend to consider in detail what has happened in the other House, the various sections and how they were dealt with, and amendments that will be put forward and argued. It is a highly complex Bill and one of considerable importance. All of us in this House want to do justice to it. We are prepared to sit long hours next week. We are entitled, as a House, to have the advantage of the weekend to consider it.
I would like to add my voice to what has already been said, particularly about the need to look at length, in depth and with breadth at what is applied by the Extradition Bill and, all the more so, because of the need to educate the English Prime Minister on what is involved.
Senators
Hear, hear.
I support what Senator Manning said about the Order of Business of this House. It seems to me that it is very lop-sided. We started very well at the beginning of this session with a lot of very important legislation. I do not understand how we can come back today with no legislation before the House. I further do not understand how the Companies (No. 2) Bill, for instance, of which we discussed the first 50 sections and of which we discussed the Second Stage in May and June, has suddenly got caught somewhere in the system. Perhaps the Leader of the House could tell us why the Companies (No. 2) Bill has not come before the House. Are we waiting for Government amendments, or have the Government not made up their mind?
Finally, I would like to say something about the Extradition (Amendment) Bill. It would be fair to the House if the Leader of the House told us exactly what his intentions are about this very important Bill. It would be absurd if we got this on Friday and Saturday and had to actually rush through it just for the convenience of the Fianna Fáil Party.
I am not sure whether I am in order, but I would like to pay tribute to the Garda and the Army for the very successful conclusion to the O'Grady kidnap issue.
It does not arise on the Order of Business.
The man who was captured had been in and out of the North. We hear all about us being negligent on this side of the Border but the British Army and the RUC failed to capture him. Our forces were able to capture him.
I appreciate what you are saying, but I am trying to clear the Order of Business. We have legislation coming up where those tributes will be suitable.
On the issue of when we debate the Extradition Bill, I understand there is a question of taking it on Friday and, possibly, Monday. I would like to protest at the possibility of sitting on Monday. Many of us who are Members of this House are also members of local authorities. Local authorities are currently involved in lengthy debates on their estimates. These meetings are of crucial importance to the very survival and continuance of local authorities. In my view, it is a thoroughly inappropriate day to take the Committee Stage of legislation which has been controversial and which, in my view, is figleaf legislation to cover up the embarrassment of some members of the Fianna Fáil Party.
The Senator has said it now, but to make a speech is something else. There is a battle going on between two Senators behind.
May I first of all, with your indulgence, refer to something that happened last week? I am sure most Members of the House will join with me in this. Last Wednesday was Lá na Gaeilge in this House. The Cathaoirleach and all the Members of this House made considerable efforts to make use of the Irish language. It was quite clear from the newspaper reports on the debate in this House the following day that anyone who spoke Irish on that occasion was guaranteed not to be reported. May I simply invite the newspapers people who write editorials about our hypocrisy about the Irish language to have a look into their own hearts for once and figure out who it is who gives lip service to the Irish language? We make the effort; they do not report it. Let them not at least in the future give us lectures about who is in earnest and who is not.
Senators
Hear, hear.
On the Order of Business, I share the views of a considerable number of Members of this House. Fianna Fáil have already given away the principle of extradition. Mock and false urgency will not get away from the fact that what we are now amending is an Act that is in force since 1965. This House is entitled to consider that——
You are now half into your speech, whatever day you decide to take it. Would you please make your point and sit down?
I will do what you told me to do and in the order in which you told me to do it. I will make my point and then I will sit down. My point is that I do not see any need for this House to debate the Extradition (Amendment) Bill hurriedly. I invite Members opposite to explain to a simple citizen like me why there is an urgency about it. Do they intend to extradite all the people that they have hassled and harrassed over the last——
You are making another speech now.
I would like to share Senator Bulbulia's concern that we should suddenly be expected to sit on, perhaps, this Friday and next Monday. I would like if the Leader of the House would give an indication today whether it is intended to sit extra days this week and next week. There is, of course, the principal obligation on Members of this House towards their duty as Senators, but like Senator Bulbulia, I have other obligations and in order to be here I have concentrated my teaching on Mondays and Fridays, so I have a particular problem. In courtesy to Senators some degree of advance notice, as far as possible, should be given of this kind of arrangement so that we can make alternative arrangements ourselves.
I would like also to echo the sentiments of other Senators with regard to the question of discussing the Extradition (Amendment) Bill in a hurry. It is a most important piece of legislation. It is something that requires study. I would like if the Leader of the House would comment on when he intends — if he intends taking it as he gave an undertaking to do — to take Item No. 14, which is the Extradition (European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1987, on the order for the Second Stage of which he did give an undertaking to Senator O'Toole and myself that he would discuss it at an early moment. I would remind the Leader of the House that Senator O'Toole and myself withdrew an earlier motion on the understanding that time would be given for the debate on this Bill about which I will resist the temptation to make a speech.
You will not be allowed to make a speech.
It covers a number of the points that will be raised on the Extradition (Amendment) Bill.
I support the sentiments expressed by Senator Ryan regarding last week. Before I go on, I would like to place on record that I congratulate you, each Member of the Seanad here last week, all the ushers and all the people throughout the House, who made a genuine effort to use the Irish language. It is not that anyone is pushing the Irish language down anybody's throat. It was just an expression on that day. I was very disappointed on reading the papers the next day that there was hardly a mention of it. It was more of a laugh by the papers than anything else.
Ba mhaith liomsa aontú leis an méid a dúirt an Seanadóir Ryan agus Seanadóir Fitzgerald anseo, I would like to concur with almost everything. Regarding the reports on the Irish language, there was a small report on the Sunday Irish paper, "Anois". They carried a substantial part of Senator Fitzgerald's speech here in that paper. But what I refer to again is easpa córas aistriucháin sa Teach seo. We should have an instant translation. It is a time of financial constraints but I am sure that out of the National Lottery money can be available because the Taoiseach——
I appreciate what you are saying, Senator, but that is something on which we decided in recent weeks that it should be dealt with by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I have held a meeting since but there is one tomorrow and I will take responsibility for raising it there again.
I would like to say that the Taoiseach, as Minister for the Gaeltacht, has made substantial amounts of money available to the Irish language. Encouragement should be given for its use in this House as well and it would be a shame if the translation was not forthcoming.
I would like to concur with what other Senators have said. It is particularly important that the comments about Lá na Gaeilge should come from Senator Ryan in his criticism of the printed media as he is perhaps one of the people — and I mean this as a compliment — who benefits most from his contribution in this House. The papers might listen. Lest that there might be a feeling abroad that the media in general did not acknowledge Lá na Gaeilge in the House, it is only fair that I should pay tribute to RTE's coverage of the sittings of this House specifically on that day and, on their coverage generally of the Seanad proceeding. Particularly when the other House is not sitting they devote all of their air time to this House. I know — and I am sure Senators would agree with me — that this is widely listened to throughout the country. I think that should be acknowledged.
Before I call the Leader of the House, I do not thank RTE at all, Senator Mooney, because it was the Seanad who brought broadcasting into the two Houses of Parliament. There was a battle royal there in earlier days, too. The Leader of the House, to reply.
I am talking about editorial control which RTE would have.
I am just putting on the record why it is all happening, Senator Mooney.
Ba mhaith liom ar dtús aontú leis na Seanadóirí san méid a dúirt siad i dtaobh úsáid na Gaeilge san Teach seo an tseachtain seo caite. Last week no Senator was in any way using the Irish language for any purpose other than to help the spread of the language. I do not think it was used in a cynical way. I would hate to think anybody would see the Irish language as a bone of contention.
It has to be said that the reporters in this House did not report the Seanad last week to a large degree. Whether or not it was reported in Irish or English is a little irrelevant. The comments about cynicism came from the other House. Of course that does not surprise us. Having said that, we have to compliment the press people who come here week after week and whose input or output is cut out deliberately by the Irish Press group, I have to say again. I see the representative from the Irish Independent is here day after day. The Cork Examiner give this House good coverage. The Irish Times give us good coverage. RTE give us good coverage, but I am afraid what we said i dtaobh na Gaeilge can be said equally about coverage of this House in both the Irish and English languages.
I am afraid that Senator Bulbulia, perhaps inadvertently, might drag the House down in the sense that she said that, unfortunately as a member of a local authority, she has to attend important meetings of local authorities about the estimates. Senators are elected to serve in the Seanad. There should be no conflict of interest as between service to this House and service to local authorities. I am a member of two local authorities. I cannot attend my local authority meetings when I have Seanad duties. Because of that, I miss a certain number. I do not mind missing them because I am committed to this House.
The compliments to the Garda and the Army can be made the basis for discussion on another day. A suggestion has been made that there is an attempt on this side of the House to rush through the Extradition (Amendment) Bill. I did not mention the Extradition (Amendment) Bill on the Order of Business. I cannot see how anybody could construe from that that we are attempting to rush through anything. Perhaps people consider in their own minds that we intend to rush something through. There is no intention in the wide, earthly world that any piece of legislation will be rushed through. I apologised in this House on the one occasion when we did not give an opportunity for a delay between Second Stage and the further Stages of a particular Bill. I said it would not happen again. It is the intention that, if the Bill goes through the Dáil on Thursday, we should sit on Friday, which will give the Minister the opportunity to address the House about the Bill. It will also give certain Senators the opportunity on Second Stage to discuss it. There is no intention that it will be rushed through. I have no intention at this stage of saying when we will sit except to say we will sit on Friday. We will get the Minister's Second Stage speech and it can be responded to but other than that I will say no more. However, I can guarantee there is no intention to rush through the Bill.
Item No. 14, unfortunately, has been overtaken by time. The European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism Act, 1986, went through on 1 December. Nobody in this House, in the light of what has happened with the bombing of the KAL plane, could suggest that the Suppression of Terrorism Bill should not go through. The Extradition (Amendment) Bill that is going through the Dáil is a separate matter, which will be dealt with at as much length as this House needs.
There has been a suggestion that we are dealing with no legislation this week. Can I suggest to the Senators who are complaining that Bills have gone through this House faster over the past number of weeks than has ever happened before? I am not going to say whose fault it is, but it is not the fault of the Members on this side of the House.
Senators
Hear, hear.
We have offered the time. If people do not take up the time I am not going to bear responsibility for that. The Bill dealing with video recordings will be before the House next week. Regarding the Companies Bill, I think that there are a number of Members on the other side of the House who are continuing to get representations about it and there are Members on this side who are getting representations. It is a very important piece of legislation. The Government are not going to rush that Bill through before every aspect of company law in this country is tightened up. That is the reason it is not before us. We can have the Insurance Bill within the next fortnight.
I agree with Senator Robb that we need to look at the Extradition Bill in light of the intrusion of the British Prime Minister into this debate. Unfortunately, every time she does come into any debate about Irish politics she puts her foot in it, and she will continue to do so. I have dealt with Senator Ryan's mock and false urgency. I wish to assure Senator Norris that there is no hurry. There is no wish on our side to have any business rushed through the House.
As far as today's business is concerned, we have been asked on numerous occasions for the report on small businesses. I agree that the depth of business today is not as I would like it to be but I can guarantee Senators will have enough work to keep them going from now until Christmas and it will be a legislation in depth.
Usually when the Leader of the House replies——
He has not answered my point. The Leader of the House says this Bill is not being rushed through. Will we be meeting on Friday? Will we, or will we not, meet on Monday of next week? We object to meeting on Friday. We think this Bill can hold over very easily until next week. We object very strenuously to meeting on Monday which means the legislation is being rushed through.
On a point of order, in relation to the comments made by the Leader of the House, I would like to make it clear I did not need any lecture from the Leader of the House as to my parliamentary duties and responsibilities. There is very strong talk we will be meeting on Monday and my objection was that we are not being given due notice that this, in fact, is so. It poses difficulty for people like me, and indeed Senator Norris. He may not have to deal with the situation of membership of two institutions but nevertheless he has arrangements. People have arrangements. It is reasonable to request information as to whether we are meeting on Monday. I would like the Leader of the House to be specific in his reply to that.
I am Cathaoirleach on Wednesday, 2 December, and I am still trying to clear today's business. Most of the Senators have gone off to next Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. We should clear up what we are doing today.
I want to conclude on the Order of Business. I accept the request that has been made that plenty of notice be given. The request was made by Senator Ferris. It was suggested that we should get an opportunity to look at the Extradition (Amendment) Bill over the week-end. We will be presented with the Bill on Friday. I am making no order after that. It is not an order because I do not have to do it today, but I am giving an indication that we will sit. As for Senator Bulbulia and her problems——
That is unfair.
Senator Norris has the opportunity to make arrangements to lecture on Mondays and Fridays so that he can attend in this House in between. Other Senators cannot make that type of arrangement and we have to abide by the days this House sits.
The question is: "That the Order of Business be Nos. 1, 5, 2, 3 and 6".
Question put.
Senators
Votáil.
On a point of order, what item on the Order of Business are the Opposition objecting to? It is on another day's business we are voting now.
I tried to say that earlier.
On a point of order, we are objecting to——
There is no point of order because the question has been put.
Our objection is to the lack of information from the Leader of the House as to the sittings of the House later this week and early next week.
The vote will proceed.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 26; Níl, 16.
Tá
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Doherty, Michael.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Connor, Nicholas.
- Robb, John D.A.
- Ryan, William.
- Wallace, Mary.
Níl
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Connor, John.
- Cregan, Denis.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Harte, John.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- McCormack, Padraic.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Norris, David.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and Fallon; Níl, Senators Cregan and Connor.
Question declared carried.
I do not want to upset anybody but some kind of order has to come back into the House. Once a question is put — I understand this is the ruling of this House since its foundation — nobody can pull back. We will now proceed with item No. 1.