It is proposed to take Items No. 1 and 2. There will be a lunch break from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. With regard to the time of conclusion of the business of the House this evening, I might suggest 4.30 p.m. or 5 p.m., whichever is preferred.
Order of Business.
I suggest no new speaker after 4.30 p.m.
Then no new speaker after 4.30 p.m.
It is proposed to take Items Nos. 1 and 2 with a break between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock and the last speaker to be taken at 4.30 p.m.
No new speaker after 4.30 p.m.
I know there has been some difficulty about whether there should be a time limit on the debate. I discussed this matter with Senator Ryan. I would like to put on the record that, perhaps, at the end of today, we might ascertain whether there should be a time limit on speeches next week. In a sense I know that could be unfair to speakers next week. But, were we to be in a position next Thursday in which a number of Senators wanted to speak, it would be reasonable to suggest that we might consider putting a time limit on speeches for the second half of the debate next week. I want to establish whether such a proposal would create any long term difficulty. I know that Senators have gone to a lot of trouble to prepare speeches on this issue, one on which many Members would like to contribute.
Also, on the Order of Business, I should like to pose a question to the Leader of the House, that is, in relation to Item No. 60 on the Order Paper which reads:
That Seanad Éireann noting and welcoming the very clear and unambiguous position against the nuclear industry taken by the Minister for Energy on behalf of the Government, now calls on the Government to declare Ireland a nuclear free zone.
My reason for drawing the attention of the House to that item is that we had a very good, lengthy and comprehensive debate recently on the proposed test at Trawsfynydd where there was almost unanimity on the issue. I view this as an uncontentious motion. I would ask the Deputy Leader of the House if he would consider that this motion should take precedence on the Order of Business. I contend it would not cause any difficulty for the Government but would be very closely in line with Government policy at present on the nuclear issue. Perhaps the Deputy Leader of the House would say when he would consider it appropriate to take that motion?
I support Senator O'Toole in his last remarks. The developments of the past few days have indicated the alarming extent to which our neutrality is being violated in the sky and the dangers to which we are exposed through overflights. These disclosures have made a debate on this more appropriate.
May I draw attention to a feature of the conduct of business in this House? I say straight away that I am as guilty as anybody else in what I have to say. It seems to me that the habit of holding private conversations is on the increase. Again, I want to say mea culpa here. It seems to me to be much worse now than I ever remember. It may be aggravated by the smallness of this Chamber. It is more noticeable here than in our proper Chamber. Last night I counted three conversations going on, with only seven Members in the House — the Minister was speaking at the time — and that points up the grave discourtesy such a habit can present to our fellow Members, to the Minister and, indeed, to you, a Chathaoirligh. If it is not checked — and it can be checked only by self-discipline — it will trivialise our business and diminish our dignity. I know that some measure of conversation is inevitable, some private consultations must take place during debate, but I do think we should all exercise some self-restraint in that regard. Having stuck my neck out obviously I cannot afford to be seen whispering in future.
That matter is now being discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. For once it appears we are agreeing.
The Senator is looking for something else.
No, that is not his style.
I agree with the remarks of Senators Murphy and O'Toole on both issues. I want to ask the Deputy Leader of the House a question in relation to Item No. 59 on the Order Paper, a motion to annul the Government's directive under section 31 of the Broadcasting Act which is in the names of Senators O'Toole, Robinson, Murphy and myself. In the previous Seanad the then Leader of the House facilitated such motions by providing Government time for them. I am not going to be so disingenuous as to argue that there was an unshakeable precedent established but there is no doubt that he did accept motions like this which are a very important function of the Seanad. They deal with statutory instruments. We have an unqualified power to overrule a statutory instrument, one of the few unqualified powers of this House.
I ask the Leader at some stage within the next two months — because it entails 21 sitting days — to facilitate a debate on Item No. 59 which is an important matter, deserving of an airing in this House. It is also one of the few areas in which we have powers to take decisions which cannot be overruled by the other House. We should exercise those powers responsibly. I ask the Deputy Leader of the House within the next couple of months to fit in a debate on Item No. 59.
I have just one matter I want to bring to the attention of the Deputy Leader of the House, Item No. 42, which is an all-party motion in connection with the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran. We will be having a constitutional debate later today and next week which I hope will deal with minorities and the rights of minorities. This is a particular religious minority whose present circumstances are affected enormously by another State. It is appropriate that this House should express its views on the matter. All I am seeking is agreement on when we might take it. I ask the Deputy Leader of the House to keep it on his list of priorities.
I should like to join in the sentiments expressed by Senator Murphy. I agree with him but up to a point only. I say that because it is my view that there is nothing worse than to see this Chamber empty of its Members when Ministers are speaking; that is much worse. When the matter of the whispering campaign is being tackled I should like to see attention devoted also to having better general attendance in this House.
I agree with Senators Murphy and O'Toole on the importance of having a debate on the idea of making Ireland a nuclear-free zone. I would like to support also Senator Ferris with regard to the treatment of the Baha'is. It was noticeable during the recent week, when there was a lot of criticism of certain areas of the Middle East, that 14,000 people have now been murdered by the régime in Iran. That makes it an item of particular topicality.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House when the undertaking given to me on numerous occasions in the past on what is now Item No. 45 on the Order Paper — and it appears to be slipping down the league in a rather alarming manner, that is discussion of the motion recalling the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and calling on the Soviet Government to permit the Soviet refuseniks to leave — will be taken?
Regarding the matter raised by Senator O'Toole about a time limit on speeches I should say that I agree with him. There is no time limit today. We will have a look at the matter this evening and see how many other speakers there are for the following Thursday, 11 February when we can reach some agreement on the matter.
Item No. 60 was mentioned also. Certainly I will contact the Department concerned about that matter to see whether we can have an early discussion on it. Item No. 59 was mentioned also. Again I will consult about that matter. But that appears to be somewhat more than an ordinary motion. The Leader of the House will respond next week on that matter.
Senator Ferris mentioned Item No. 42. I should say that we will accommodate the House, within the next month at the very latest, as far as that matter is concerned. With regard to Item No. 45, I have not had any discussions on that item with anyone. I will refer it to the Leader of the House when he returns next week. I am sure that motion will be taken in the not too distant future.
Order of Business agreed to.