On the motion for the adjournment I have notice from Senator Phil Hogan that he intends to raise the following matter; the need for the Minister for Education to examine the serious consequences that a proposed change in the pupil-teacher ratio will have on the pupils and staff of Tullow Community School, County Carlow.
Adjournment Matter. - Carlow School Pupil-Teacher Ratio.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
First, I want to take the opportunity to welcome the Minister for Education to the House once more. She is a very regular attender at this House. I am sure there are reasons behind that attendance. However, the Minister is always welcome here and I hope she will be able to assist me on this occasion.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
As a distinguished former Member.
The Minister will be aware that a tremendous deterioration has been taking place in the quality of education for the past while and that the subject options that are available to students, particularly in the vocational and community schools are decreasing. This is in spite of the fact that the number of pupils in public sector schools has increased by 75 per cent in the last few years, compared with 11.4 per cent in the traditional secondary schools. The decision by the Government to increase the pupil-teacher ratio in vocational, secondary and community schools from 19:1 to 20:1 will have tremendous repercussions, particularly for a school the size of Tullow Community School, County Carlow. One of the first effects it will have is that there will be an immediate loss of three teachers from the present staff of the school.
The school has suffered a tremendous loss of teachers since 1979. In 1979, the number of pupils attending Tullow Community School was 730, with 51 teachers. Today there are 832 pupils and 47 teachers. The increase in the pupil-teacher ratio would mean a loss of 3.5 teachers in the school. This will include a loss of subjects to many pupils. They stand to lose 22 hours of art, 22 hours of geography and religion, 12 hours of science, two hours of music, two hours of Church of Ireland religion and 22 hours of some other subject. The school will be placed in a position where it will be unable to accept all who wish to enrol in the first year in that school from September 1988.
The Minister's Department will be aware that this school has been looking for an extension for some considerable time. The school was originally built for a certain number of pupils. Now it is unable to accept any extra new entrants to the school because it needs about four new rooms in order adequately to cope with the huge catchment area it has to service in east Carlow. It will not be in a position to take repeat students in spite of the fact that they have to pay for that particular facility. The school will not be able to give subject choices as it was in a position to do up to now. The preemployment course has to be suspended because of the deterioration of the facilities at the school. This is something I would feel very strongly about. At a time of very high unemployment it is most regrettable that there will be no preemployment course or alternative leaving certificate course available to Tullow Community School from 1 September next.
The loss of remedial teaching hours is another source of great disappointment to me. The Minister will be aware that one-third of the students in vocational education need remedial help of some description. This compares with 25 per cent of the pupils in the community schools and 8 per cent in the traditional secondary schools. These figures are a result of a survey that has been carried out by the various teaching unions involved in that sector and which have found a fair level of agreement with the officials of the Minister's Department.
In spite of the fact that the provisions laid down by the Department of Education for remedial teaching of 15 hours per week have to be implemented by the school, the school authorities and the board of management are finding it extremely difficult for the school, from 1 September, 1988, to carry out its obligations in this regard because they must make teachers available to teach the traditional subjects. A similar situation has arisen in this school in relation to career guidance counsellors. The Minister will know that the career guidance counsellors that are available in the secondary and community educational sectors are very few and far between. At a time of high unemployment and difficulty in placing school leavers in jobs it is most regrettable that there should be any reduction in the level of assistance we could give to young people to stay in Ireland and get a job, rather than having to go abroad.
I am forcibly making the point that there is a tremendous anxiety on the part of students due to the fact that they will not know where they stand in relation to their educational requirements from 1 September 1988. Parents and students alike are now planning for their second level education. The uncertainty that is generated by the fact that many pupils have to be turned away in a catchment area of the size that Tullow Community School serves is certainly giving no confidence to the staff, the board of management and the parents in the area, who are most anxious that the Minister will reconsider her decision in relation to the pupil-teacher ratio, that she will at least seek to set up a review of the situation in Tullow Community School. I know that in another House the Minister has been encouraged to do this in relation to the vocational community school sector, as she has done in the primary sector.
I am also worried about the flood of teachers to take up the offer of the voluntary redundancy scheme. Of its nature, the word "redundancy" means that there will be no position available. Teacher unions have certainly sold out in relation to the quality of education they are giving to present generations and will give to future generations of pupils. The increase in the pupil-teacher ratio and the limitation being put on the subject options made available to the community school pupils in Tullow will certainly mean a tremendous deterioration in the quality of education they have been used to in the Tullow area.
It is also worth nothing that because of the cuts that have taken place in 1987 the school already has had to suspend pass and honours classes. They have had to go at senior cycle because of the need to rationalise hours and the need to place teachers in a different time-table structure.
I am appealing to the Minister to look at this case very sympathetically, to acknowledge the fact that there is a problem in the staffing arrangements being made available by the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio at Tullow Community School, that there is no choice for the pupils of this area other than to go to Tullow Community School. It serves a catchment area of about 15 miles, even into counties other than Carlow. It would be most regrettable that for the sake of fiscal rectitude resources our education system would be restricted in a ham fisted and ill-planned way; that we would not sympathetically consider individual schools where there is obvious genuine hardship being created. We can seek to redress that by putting a community school like Tullow into a situation where a vocational community school review committee could be established by the Department. I hope the Minister can assure the school this evening that she will be in a position to redress the likely outcome of the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio by some other means.
First, I am glad to come here; indeed it was at Senator Phil Hogan's request that I was last in the Seanad. I think his commitment and indeed his very good knowledge of the course and the causes of education are well documented in the records of the Seanad. I have found that his submissions and the debates I have had with him in this House have always been well reasoned and indeed, well researched.
This evening he has brought up the matter of Tullow Community School in his own area and constituency. I am glad Senator Hogan has raised the matter. Just to clear up any historical developments in the community and comprehensive schools, I will talk about the developments over the past five years. Senator Hogan's contributions are always reasoned and as would befit an education debate, non-political. I do not mean my remarks to be political. I am just putting the matter in an historical context.
From the commencement of the 1983-1984 school year certain changes were introduced by the previous Administration — that is why I am putting it like that — in the staffing arrangements for community and comprehensive schools. The pupil-teacher ratio was changed by the previous two Ministers from a figure of 18:1 to a band of 18 to 20:1, so what is now proposed is in fact what Deputy Hussey introduced but was not implemented fully. Posts of vice-principal, which had been ex-quota in all schools would be ex-quota, she said, only in schools of at least 250 pupils; the enrolment threshold for the reckoning of guidance teachers as ex-quota was raised from 250 to 500. In the context of the 1987 budget proposals, the previous Administration also decided that posts of vice-principal and guidance teacher would be brought within the quota of all post-primary schools.
I was lucky in that when we came in we still had that budget to move with and some things were increased and some were not. I decided that the question of the implementation of that latter measure should be revised and that was the one which would have been devastating in a place like Tullow. That was, that the guidance teacher and vice-principal would be brought within quota in all schools. The post of vice-principal since 1983-1984 has been reckoned within quota in the smaller post-primary schools. I felt that on grounds of economy of scale the extension of the arrangement to the larger post-primary schools, that is, those which have enrolments of at least 250, would be justified. The post of guidance teachers in the larger schools was, however, a different matter and I do agree with the Senator — the need for the services of a specialist guidance teacher in the larger post-primary schools is self-evident.
That was not the plan envisaged by Deputy Cooney as Minister for Education and as submitted to me. Because of this I decided that no change should be made in the status of the post of guidance teacher. This post will continue to be reckoned as ex-quota in post-primary schools with enrolments of at least 500. When considering the 1988 provision for the pay of teachers in post primary schools it was necessary, as had Deputy Hussey and Deputy Cooney over those four years and had made changes in the pupil-teacher ratio, to look again at the staffing arrangements for those schools.
In terms of standards and range of ability of pupils catered for, whatever may have been the case before post-primary education for all, now the average post-primary school, whether it be secondary, vocational, community or comprehensive caters for a wide range of ability levels. I do think we all recognise that, that the edges have blurred. Apart from what might be seen as the feepaying selective schools, most ordinary rural-urban type post-primary schools cater for more or less the same type of pupil. No change is being made with regard to the ex-quota position of principal, guidance and remedial posts — no change at all in post-primary schools, and with regard to guidance posts in schools with at least 500 recognised pupils I am making no change.
The Senator had worries about remedial posts and quite rightly so. In the year 1985 to 1986 and 1986 to 1987 a total of 95 remedial-guidance posts were allocated to post-primary schools catering for disadvantaged pupils, giving a total of 295, practically 300 such posts, and these posts are not affected at all by any decision which will fall to be made by the PTR. I want to make that very clear because people are concerned about the remedial needs and the guidance needs but within the context of what I have said here, any changes in PTR will not affect those particular positions.
In Tullow Community School, the 1988-89 teaching staff allocation to be issued within the next month will be determined by reference to the maximum points of the ratio band introduced by Deputy Hussey of 18 to 20, introduced in 1983. It was always envisaged that the community and comprehensive schools would move upwards, and, of course, in the years to come we are hoping that comparability between the schools would be established and that the ratio would move down when our resources permit. Of course, we could spend more and always could spend more and more on education. One could never spend enough on it until one would get to a one-to-one pupil teacher ratio if it could be got at that but we are living in the circumstances in which we find ourselves.
I am confident that no insuperable difficulties will arise for the managerial authorities of the Tullow school and the school will continue to have the services of an ex-quota guidance teacher. Had the decision of the previous Administration remained in place that post would be without quota immediately. The school will continue to be allocated an ex-quota remedial post so the special needs of the disadvantaged pupils can be catered for.
I very much take Senator Hogan's point about a review of the measures at post-primary level, in particular the review of the measures at vocational, community and comprehensive school level and again with relation to Tullow. I cannot give the Senator the blanket assurance he was looking for nor can I give him the blanket assurance he sought with reference to Tullow, but I can say that I will ask my inspectorate to investigate the case of Tullow community school, to speak to the principal and to relay back to me the worries and concerns of that principal. We will be looking at all of the post-primary schools in the context of the upcoming pupil-teacher ratio changes. I can certainly say — it is not a trite assurance — it is quite clear that the concerns of Senator Hogan are very strongly addressed in this House and I will undertake to him to have the inspectorate look at the circumstances of Tullow school and talk to me about it. Then, hopefully I will be able to report back to Senator Hogan at that point.
Just one question for clarification: is the Minister aware of the loss of subject choice?
Of course I am aware. I used to be a teacher myself at second level. I realise what can be done within the constraints of a time-table. The measures introduced by the two previous Ministers were far more devastating than what I have in mind.
That is no excuse.
The Seanad adjourned at 3.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 9 March 1988.