It is proposed to take item No. 1 only today.
Order of Business.
First, may I say it has been our sombre duty over the past year in this House to express our revulsion at the many atrocities in Northern Ireland? I think it is only appropriate that the House today should express its revulsion at the appalling killings in Belfast over the past weekend.
On the Order of Business, I am extremely unhappy with the ordering of business, not so much today as over the course of this week. I believe, as was expressed very strongly by our spokesperson on Finance last week, that there is no need to take the Finance Bill in one week. That has not been the case in previous years and the only pressure to do so, apparently, is coming from the Department of Finance. In constitutional terms it is possible for this debate to be continued into next week. There is a device by which this can be made possible.
I am particularly concerned that, as it now stands, only one day will be devoted to Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. Surely everyone knows that Committee Stage is the meat of the Finance Bill and is where most of the serious work is done. Could the Leader of the House agree to take Committee Stage of the Finance Bill next week? If he does not agree to this, I ask him to agree to sit today for as long as it takes us to finish Second Stage of the Bill and take Committee Stage tomorrow and Thursday. That would be very much in the interests of all Members of the House.
Finally, on the Order of Business, I would like to refer to item No. 6 on the Order Paper today. We have all been very patient with the Leader of the House in our frequent requests to him to have a debate on this item. The situation in Northern Ireland is now such — and developments seem to be reasonably positive — that it would be both appropriate and helpful if this House had an opportunity to debate recent events in Anglo-Irish relations and recent developments in Northern Ireland. This House has always been positive, constructive and supportive in dealing with questions in this area. It would be in all our interests if the Leader of the House could agree, if not this week, to give us a definite date for the taking of this motion next week.
Just to pick up on Senator Manning's final point I would also like to urge the Leader of the House to take very seriously the demand for a debate on Anglo-Irish affairs and Item No. 6 on the Order Paper. It has been lying there for months now. I am getting sick and tired of raising this issue and the need to have it discussed. Every day on the radio, on television and in the news media there is reference to the need for people to have dialogue and talks on what is happening in the North of Ireland. If politicians do not talk, people find other ways of expressing whatever feelings they may have. It is unacceptable that we have allowed this item to sit there for so long without being dealt with. I appeal to the Leader of the House to give us a date today for when we can put forward our views on the whole area of Anglo-Irish relations, the difficulties involved in the North of Ireland, and so on.
You cannot make a speech on it now. The point is taken.
I am merely addressing myself to item No. 6 on the Order Paper. I feel we should take it. I am not discussing the issue. I am making a case to the Leader of the House for dealing with the matter. That is one issue.
Last week we had a row here which was pushed to a vote on the issue of the report of the Ombudsman. At that stage the Leader of the House gave an indication that he might be prepared in the future to deal with that report. The Ombudsman is the last option for people who are the victims of bureaucracy and we intend to keep raising and raising this matter until we get some indication that the report will be discussed in the House. I would like for a third time to ask the Leader of the House to give us some commitment to dealing with the Ombudsman's annual report.
I agree with the last suggestion. It is appropriate as soon as possible to discuss Northern Ireland affairs under that motion and it is a matter for the Leader of the House to reach agreement with us on taking it. I would also like to associate myself with the expression of revulsion by Senator Manning about what happened over the weekend. Going back to the actual Order of Business, as proposed by the Leaders of the House, could I have some clarification because I was not aware that the House was supposed to sit today for as long as was necessary to deal with Second Stage only. As I understood it from the Leader of the House last week, he hopes to have the Finance Bill dealt with in three days. No agreement has been reached on that.
I do not agree that we should sit all day and all night to finish Second Stage. We can sit today until 8.30 p.m., or later or earlier as the case may be, and if necessary we can sit again tomorrow to complete Second Stage. Second Stage of the Bill is important and all of us require an opportunity to make our positions clear. Committee Stage is another matter for decision when we arrive at it. I know the Leader of the House wants to get the Bill finished in three days. He may not do so. We should not have agreement to sit all night, if necessary, to facilitate everybody on Second Stage. I would prefer the debate to continue tomorrow and perhaps the Leader of the House would clarify if that is his intention.
First, I would like to associate myself with the remarks made by Senator Manning about what happened in Northern Ireland over the weekend. I do not think any more can be said because we condemn these atrocities week after week after week and our condemnations fall to a large extent on deaf ears. Having said that, I would like to comment on the chaotic way in which the business of this House is being run.
It is to me quite incredible that we have had so many pledges of so many debates on so many relevant issues and not one of them has come up or has been allowed. We have been promised a debate on Anglo-Irish relations for months. We have been promised a debate on the Middle East. We have been promised a debate on the report of the Ombudsman. None of these has materialised. The Companies (No. 2) Bill has been lanquishing in this House for over one year now, for a reason which I cannot understand. It came into this House the week before last for a day and a few minutes. The next day it disappeared again. God knows when it is coming back again.
To me, it is quite extraordinary that when the Government want us to sit suddenly on a Tuesday — this is the first Tuesday sitting for some time — we sit on a Tuesday to get the Finance Bill through. The Finance Bill, as we know, can go through next week. I am in favour of sitting on Tuesdays but let the Leader of the House tell us why we cannot sit next Tuesday and the Tuesday after and every single Tuesday until the summer recess to discuss those Bills which are clogged up in this House, including the Companies (No. 2) Bill and the Insurance Bill. If necessary we can sit on Mondays and Fridays also. The reason we do not sit on Mondays and Fridays has something to do with county council meetings.
This legislation is important and it is being neglected. I suggest it brings the House into contempt if the Finance Bill is rushed through for some reason when important legislation is delayed. I would like to ask the Leader of the House if we can sit every Tuesday from now on to discuss the Companies (No. 2) Bill, the Insurance Bill, Private Members' Bills, if necessary, and have the promised debate on the Middle East, the Anglo-Irish debate and the Ombudsman debate and debate other Bills. If we can sit today we can sit on Tuesday——
If we could get the Order of Business cleared we might sit today.
Yes. We can sit until midnight if necessary. I am happy to sit later.
You have made your point. Would you sit down now?
There are other issues which could be discussed. We have over 50 items on the Order Paper here. There are 64 items. There are Private Members' Bills.
If we sit all night I shall be here and you might not be, but go on in any case.
I will be here on Mondays— you get paid extra for it, a Chathaoirligh.
(Interruptions.)
Before you sit down you should withdraw that last remark.
I will withdraw that last remark. I want Private Members' Bills, including the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill and my Bill on capital punishment to be taken by the Government. If we can sit today we can sit on further Tuesdays and other days of the week when necessary.
I seek permission to raise under Standing Order 29 a matter of continuing public interest and public controversy, that is, the whole rod licence issue. I want to raise this today in view of the announcement by the Government that they are unwilling to change their mind.
I understand that you are sending it in writing to my office.
I am not fully aware of the procedure.
That is the procedure.
Before Senator Lanigan replies to the requests about the tabling of the Finance Bill, our preference would be as stated last week to take Second Stage of the Finance Bill over one week and Committee Stage the following week as has been the practice in the past two years. However, we are prepared to facilitate the Government to some extent and, as matters stand, it would appear as if Committee Stage of the Bill will be taken on Thursday. I am concerned lest Committee Stage be in some way rushed. There are 77 sections to the Finance Bill and six Chapters in all. Generally speaking — and successive Ministers for Finance have agreed — in the Seanad the Finance Bill gets a fine combing and thorough attention, line by line, which it does not receive in the Dáil because they are more preoccupied with the amendments they put down.
We, of course, cannot put down amendments on Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. We can put down recommendations and we can discuss these in a reasoned fashion. The same political heat is not necessarily in the Finance Bill when it is debated in this House but a more rational objective calm analysis of the different sections does take place. I believe it is of value and those of us who feel that the Seanad has a value would recognise that in this legislation the Seanad comes into its own. For that reason I would be very unhappy if the Committee and remaining Stages of the Finance Bill were perhaps taken in a hurried fashion on Thursday when constitutionally the Bill does not have to be signed until 27 May and when time is there to give it the detailed and painstaking examination of which I speak.
I think I shall take the question of the Finance Bill first and then deal with other matters. While it is correct to say that over the past two years the Finance Bill was given two weeks in actual fact it was taken over three days in the two weeks and there will be no difference in the length of time that will be allotted to that Bill this year as against other years. It was only last year and the year before that that happened. It may have happened on occasions before that but it was only occasionally. In the past two years we gave three days and it will be the very same this year. The Bill has to be signed by the President on 27 May and it has to be passed basically here by Thursday so that a copy of the Bill can be presented to the President on Friday. The constitutional stipulation that the President may sign the Bill not earlier than the fifth and not later than the seventh day after being presented to him comes into effect next Saturday. Allowing for Friday, 27 May, to be the seventh and last day for the Bill to be signed this just makes the deadline.
So far as the suggestions made by Senator Manning and Senator Bulbulia are concerned, I can guarantee that there will be no rushing of Second Stage or Committee Stage. Nothing else is of great urgency this week. We can sit as late as is needed this evening and, if necessary, start off again on Second Stage in the morning and go through. If Second Stage finishes at some stage tomorrow, since it is a Bill to which we cannot put down amendments, there is no great reason we should not go immediately into Committee and Report Stages.
If it is felt necessary to sit until 10 o'clock tonight, I have absolutely no objection to that. The Whips can meet at about 6 o'clock and decide how long we will sit today. We can make arrangements in the morning for taking Second Stage and Committee Stage and then arrange for continuance of Committee Stage and Report Stage on Thursday.
I do not know where to start on what was said by Senator Ross. He talked about the legislation being held up in this House and in particular he mentioned the Insurance Bill and the Companies (No. 2) Bill. Senator Ross would get up in this House and protest if these two Bills were being rushed through either this House or the other House. Both Bills involve major legislation in areas which have not been amended for many years. As the Senator knows, there are suggestions for over 200 amendments to be made in the Companies (No. 2) Bill at this stage. In the Insurance Bill the amendments are coming in at a rate of knots. The people who are concerned in the insurance area, whether it be as insured or insurers, want to see this Bill coming out as strong a Bill as the Houses of the Oireachtas can produce.
The very same thing applies in the Companies (No. 2) Bill. We would all like to see certain aspects of company law changed overnight, such as the dreadful directors situation where companies are allowed to fold up and then start up again with rogue directors taking over companies, closing them down and re-opening them. However, though there are such things as that which have to be addressed and there is an urgency about them, the Oireachtas must equally ensure that when that Bill goes out of the Houses of the Oireachtas it can stand up to the exigencies of business today.
I reject totally the outburst by Senator Ross. I am glad he did withdraw the statement he made regarding the Cathaoirleach. On the question of the days we sit, we will be sitting when the Leader of the House calls the House together; it may be on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays; it may be on Wednesdays and Thursdays. I would like to remind Senator Ross and other Senators that this House has sat more often since the first session of this Oireachtas than any other Seanad except one.
On the matter of the report of the Ombudsman, again I take the points raised. That report was brought before us last week and immediately there is a hullaballoo because certain people in the media took up certain points that were made by the Ombudsman. We can discuss those, but I do not think that there is urgency about it that has been expressed here. Nevertheless, it will be taken when a time can be allotted to it. It will not be taken this week.
I accept what has been said about item No. 6 and I will go to the Government and see when that debate can take place. It is not just people on the other side of the House who have an interest in what is happening in the North of Ireland. I agree with the suggestions that dialogue is necessary. I agree with what was said by Dr. Eames today at the Synod of the Church of Ireland when he suggested that he was glad——
On a point of order, is the Leader of the House allowed to make a speech?
I have to refer to what has been asked about on the Order of Business. Dr. Eames said he was glad that the Taoiseach had asked for dialogue between all the parties involved. That shows that the Taoiseach is as much interested as, if not more than, some of the people who do a lot of shouting about matters relating to the North of Ireland. A number of other points were made by Senator Ross relating to items of importance. The items of importance as suggested by Senator Ross change from week to week and I will not be railroaded in one week to take what is the flavour of the week from the Independent group.
The list gets longer, that is all.
The Government decide what is taken on the Order of Business. I accept the suggestions made by Senator Bulbulia and Senator Manning relating to the Finance Bill and if the Whips get together at about 6 o'clock today we might make progress. It is about time we got into the debate on the Finance Bill.
I wish to raise a point of order. I withdraw the remark I made without reservation but I wish to point out, a Chathaoirligh, that you made a personal remark about my presence in this House prior to that. You said that you would be here at midnight and I would not. You opened the batting on that issue and I want that on the record.
Order of Business agreed to.