It is proposed to take Item No. 1 today. There were a number of queries yesterday as to when we would be taking the Companies Bill. Thre were a number of amendments laid out yesterday by the Government and it is intended to continue with the Committee Stage of that Bill the week after next. It is hoped that next week we will resume and conclude the Insurance Bill.
Order of Business.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Could the Leader of this House tell us as to whether it is proposed to have a lunch break?
I would like to draw attention of the Leader of the House to Items Nos. 60, 63 and 64 of today's Order Paper and to say that we will be requesting that Item No. 60 be taken as a matter of urgency, if not today then at a very early stage next week. The Leader of the House has indicated in the past that he is quite willing to have this motion discussed. I would like to draw attention to Items Nos. 63 and 64 and to say that, in view of the importance of these two reports, we will be asking for early consideration of them.
In view of the fact that there is no ministerial reply to what was an extremely important, wide-ranging and good humoured debate on the Agriculture Bill last night, will the Leader of the House endeavour to find some way in which the Minister could make a Second Stage reply to that particular debate?
On the Order of Business, the Leader of the House has indicated that we will be taking No. 1. I do not know for how long or how many Stages of this Bill we are going to take. I refer to yesterday morning's question to the Leader of the House when we were dealing with the Agriculture Bill. He assured us that there would be no curtailment of the debate, that there was no hurry with the debate and that it would go on, if necessary, next week. Unfortunately, last night, through no fault of the Chair, it was decided to extend idefinitely the sitting and then suddenly there was a guillotine from the Government side. I left at 1.50 a.m. in the belief that there would have been a debate and a conclusion and that the Minister would reply, but that did not happen.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Chair would just like to point out that it was not a guillotine; it was just a closure motion.
There is a difference?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It was proposed that the question be put, which is quite different——
As somebody who was involved very much in some of the problems which arose last night, I would like to ask the Leader of the House what arrangements are to be made in future in relation to the extension of business in the House. We had the Order of Business yesterday morning at which a definite time was laid down——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We are now opening up the discussion we had earlier this morning and the Chair would seek the co-operation of the House in ordering today's business.
I beg the Chair's indulgence. This is relevant to all business in the future. Yesterday morning a definite time was decided for the duration of a debate and I would like to inquire from the Leader of the House what arrangements he will have in the future if he wishes an extension of business. Yesterday evening at about three minutes to 11 the House was apparently informed that there was to be an extension of the business. The business was to conclude, by the order laid down at the Order of Business yesterday morning, three minutes later.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
This is not in order.
I would suggest that this is quite in order, quite germane and it is relevant to today's business.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It is not relevant to today's business.
(Interruptions.)
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Chair has the responsibility to ensure that orders of the House are carried out. That is exactly what was achieved yesterday. I would ask for the co-operation of the House today to ensure that we have the business properly ordered this morning.
If the Leader of the House wishes to extend today's business beyond the time laid down now, what consultation will he have with other groups in the House for the extension of this business?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That is a legitimate question.
On the Order of Business, there is on the Order Paper four motions down in the name of Senator Michael Lanigan, the Leader of the House, on the question of reports of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. In view of all the discussions, dialogue, all the threats, innuendo, and some of the essays we have heard through the media, when will people who have an interest in the whole question of the mixed economy get an opportunity of having those very important matters debated?
With regard to Item No. 4 on the Order Paper, the Companies Bill, and the commitment, which is now being welched on once again by the Leader of the House, to have it dealt with this week, next week and now the week after, I ask him to proceed with this legislation in the light of circumstances outside of this House where companies are being sold, shelf companies, in order to allow people to circumvent the legislation we are now passing. Every day we delay this legislation it is causing difficulty for people and will lead to further injustice when fly-by-night companies close down one day and open up the next day with a new company. They are now buying these new companies and will therefore not have to comply with the regulations as outlined in the legislation we are passing at the moment. It is a disgraceful, irresponsible abrogation of duty and responsibility that we would not deal with this area.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
This is really all that one can ask on the Order of Business. The Chair would appreciate the Senator's co-operation.
I never cease to be co-operative when people seek my co-operation. Unfortunately, when people do not attempt to be co-operative I can be as awkward as the next person and would confess to being so. I have certainly made it clear on a number of occasions that I would be pushing this matter of the Companies Bill to a vote on a regular basis. I intend pushing it to a vote on a daily basis from now on as I certainly want to see the Government people voting against——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Leader of the House has mentioned the Companies Bill already. He gave notice of it this morning. Surely the Senator heard him. It will be taken the week after next.
I would, however, compliment the Minister for circulating the amendments in good time. I have to say that, because I made the point that they were necessary and it was good to get them yesterday. They certainly will be debated in full, but there will be many votes before we get around to debating them.
On the question of the Order of Business, and the changing of the Order of Business without consultation as the day goes on, it is regrettable that that should happen. If basic and major changes are to be made in the business we are ordering here today at some stage later on today, there should be at the very least the courtesy of consultation and discussion with the other groups. I would like to make two points in response to a point that the Leader made. I was certainly guillotined here this morning at 2.50 a.m.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot have a discussion on that re-opened at this stage.
Will the Chair explain one thing to me? The Leader has mentioned this in his presentation. The Leader has already discussed this and made a comment here——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Chair does not have to explain his rulings. The Chair makes rulings.
I would accept rulings that would be made even handedly for all sides, but if one person is entitled to make a comment on something, I certainly feel that I am entitled to respond to it. There was a guillotine implemented here——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator has no responsibility to respond to anything.
I have a grave responsibility.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator is not charged with responding and I would ask the Senator to resume his seat. Individual Senators have not any responsibility to respond here. The Leader of the House will endeavour to respond to the questions raised and I would ask the co-operation of the House to ask questions on the Order of Business, which really is all we are discussing.
On a point of order, my responsibility as a Senator is something that I have to investigate and to respond to. Whatever about the running of the House, which the Chair has clearly outlined, my responsibility is in relation to what I have to do. I am answerable to the people who will decide to put me in here or not to put me in here in the future.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Part of the Senator's responsibilities does not incorporate dictating to the Chair. The Senator certainly will not do that during this session anyway.
(Interruptions.)
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I would appreciate Senator Connor's co-operation.
At what stage did I attempt to dictate to the Chair?
What is going on here has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
(Interruptions.)
On the Order of Business, I hope it is so ordered that it will conclude at a reasonable hour. I see no circumstances, short of a national emergency, which will justify this House dealing with business into ungodly hours. It is only commonsense that one cannot give the proper attention to these matters and it is not surprising that tempers are short this morning. I say that with all the smugness of one who was in bed last night at 11 o'clock. The point is nonetheless valid. I do not see any justification for sitting after 9 o'clock any night. It is utterly ridiculous.
As a relatively new Member of the House, I beg your guidance on this matter. As someone who experienced, like many Members of the House, the appalling conduct of certain of my colleagues last night, who did not seem to be in a position to know exactly what was happening either through naivety or through their own motivations, could I ask the Leader——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It is not necessary for the Senator to apologise for any of his colleagues and the Chair would appreciate——
They are quite capable of apologising for themselves, but the problem is that they have not. I am not referring to any of my colleagues on this side of the House.
(Interruptions.)
Could I ask the Leader of the House — I seek the Chair's guidance on this — to at least discuss the matters relating to last evening with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges so that we do not have a repeat of what happened here last evening?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Leader of the House to reply. All the points are raised. Once the Leader replies there is no further discussion on the Order of Business.
It depends on his reply.
Senator Manning asked about items Nos. 60, 63 and 64. We will be taking item No. 60 before we adjourn for the summer. I cannot give an exact time as to when that debate will take place. We will have a debate on the other items, but I cannot give any indication when they will be taken because there is a heavy load of legislation coming in.
A number of people have raised the matters of yesterday's business. The Order of Business is an Order of Business that is decided in the morning. It gives the Order of Business and there is an indication when certain items might be taken. The House thereafter decides what will happen in this House. Unless anybody is under any misapprehensions, the Chair put a question last evening as to whether we should continue with or curtail the debate on the Agriculture Bill. The House decided that we should continue with and conclude the Second Stage of the Agriculture Bill. Certain Members disagreed with that and they did not disagree at the time the question was put by the Cathaoirleach. It was the Cathaoirleach who was in the Chair and there is absolutely no doubt but that the question was properly put. The House decided. I did not decide. This side of the House did not decide. There was certainly a curtailment of Senator O'Toole's contribution at 2.45 this morning. If the curtailment had not taken place he might still be speaking.
(Interruptions.)
I am not suggesting that what he would be saying would have any relevance. It may have had relevance but the question ——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
In fairness now, Leader. The Leader of the House should not comment on the contents of any colleagues' speeches.
The question was put and the House decided that the Second Stage should conclude yesterday evening. The question was asked whether the Minister should come in on a Second Stage reply. The Minister was quite prepared to come in with a Second Stage reply early this morning. He has assured me that he will on Committee Stage address every question that was asked by every Senator from each side of the House and that he will give a full and frank reply. Any points any Senator wants to make on that Bill can be raised on Committee Stage. There will be no curtailment of the Committee Stage.
Senator O'Toole raised questions about the Companies Bill and the implications for those outside of delaying the Bill. There are implications right throughout the agricultural industry by delaying the Agriculture Bill going through which are just relevant to what happens out there as delaying the Companies Bill. The House decides what happens here once the Order of Business is suggested. I am glad that Senator Murphy was in bed early last night. I am not going to give any indication that we can conclude at a reasonable hour. His reasonable hour and mine might be different.
What time has the House agreed for continuing the discussion of Item No. 1 today? I asked the Leader that initially.
I asked the Leader what arrangements he will make if he wishes to continue beyond an hour given in the Order of Business, the same as yesterday morning when the Leader stated ——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question, please.
Let us put the record straight. It is important.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator will have an opportunity now of putting the record straight. The Senator is out of order.
I am not out of order. It is in order that the record of this House be kept in order.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator will resume his seat.
Order of Business agreed to.