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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 1988

Vol. 120 No. 7

National Lottery Allocations: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls upon the Government to establish an independent authority to determine the manner in which allocations of National Lottery funds will be made and disbursed.

I am proposing the motion on behalf of the Fine Gael Party. I am doing this for a variety of reasons which I will go into in depth at a later stage in my contribution. First, I will give a broad outline of the initial setting up of the national lottery, its proposed function and how we have strayed from the original idea, particularly when funds from the lottery have greatly surpassed all expectations.

The establishment in Ireland of a national lottery is not, in international terms, a very unusual step. State lotteries exist today in over 80 countries with different economic, cultural and religious characteristics. Countries as varied in political and economic terms as the United States, Australia, Sweden, Brazil and China all have successful state lotteries. Among other partners in the European Communities, national lotteries are established in the Federal Republic of Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Denmark, Spain and Portugal. Britain, of course, has its football pools.

The function of the lottery was to generate surplus funds that would benefit our community in a number of ways, without the need for recourse to taxation or other compulsory revenue raising measures. This surplus would be generated through the purchase of tickets by those who wished of their own accord to participate in the national lottery, and not through any increase in the tax burden. In the other countries I have mentioned lottery proceeds are applied to a variety of purposes including sport, health care, the arts and other cultural activities. State lotteries are, therefore a widespread and advantageous phenomenon. The countries I have mentioned are not less sensible than ourselves, and would not operate official lotteries were they not profitable, socially useful and popular.

At the start of 1987 who would have thought that scratching small brightly coloured cardboard tickets would become a national obsession? Yet today this is what half of the adult population do almost once a fortnight. They scratch card products of the national lottery which has been one of the most successful commercial launches in this country for years. In its first week, six million instant pay lottery cards were sold, with sales exceeding the first year's target of £25 million just five weeks later. Admittedly, this figure was a conservative estimate of the lottery's potential but later more optimistic targets of 50 million to 60 million sales were more than doubled in the first year's trading, making the venture the second fastest growing lottery in the world.

The national lottery appeals to different types of taste. Instant games are for those who want immediate excitement and there is a wide variety of these. Lotto, the latest game, caters for people who like to hold on to numbers for up to a week. The success of the first game, Instant Three, was followed up within weeks by the launch of an almost identical second product called Windfall which offered a £10,000 instant prize and better prospects for higher winnings at the weekly grand prize draw. Windfall chalked up sales of £28.72 million. This was over £8 million more than its predecessor and in turn it was followed by a range of similarly successful games, Extra Chance at £29.9 million, Double Up at £18.3 million. Cash Drive at £21.4 million as well as the newly launched Celebration Bonus and Lotto, the most ambitious project so far.

Lotto is based on a formula dating back to Renaissance Italy where an enterprising Genoan took bets on the selection of a five member council from a panel of 90 nobles. Today it is played in 70 countries worldwide including all 12 EC States. Lotto Irish style is the first fully computerised national lottery on the Continent. It is the biggest dedicated data transmission network in Ireland, linking a 1,000 outlet nation-wide to a central computer. It is an on-line and interactive system. When an agent in-puts a number, it immediately registers on the national lottery's main computer. This means that entries can be accepted up to ten minutes before the weekly draw takes place, thus practically eliminating dead time that had previously eaten into sales.

The computerised Lotto system already operates successfully in the US, Australia and New Zealand but Ireland is the first European country to have such a modern system. In its first annual report which covers the period to 31 December 1987 the national lottery records a net surplus of £41.69 million, all of which was paid into the national lottery fund. From this, £26.3 million was allocated for sport, youth and recreational facilities, £8 million for culture and the arts, the Irish language was to receive £4 million and £6 millions was to go into the health projects. A further £700,000 was set aside for projects linked to Dublin's Millenium.

The idea of a national lottery was mooted as far back as 1979 when a submission was presented to the then Minister with responsibility for sport, Deputy Tunney. Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn and Deputy Keating had a concept of a national lottery for sport and so had other people. They brought it a certain distance, but there was no lottery. It was not unitl such time as Deputy Donal Creed, my constituency colleague, became Minister of State with responsibility for sport that the national lottery was taken seriously. I wish to congratulate him on his courage and conviction in initiating what is now a very successful lottery.

However, Deputy Creed's vision of how the proceeds of the national lottery should be distributed has not come to fruition. He envisaged that a minimum of 75 per cent of the proceeds would go directly to sport and to sporting organisations. It was never intended that funds from the national lottery would go to Departments which would normally have been funded by Exchequer payments. Sport and sporting organisations have always been very badly treated by all Governments over the years. We have some excellent athletes who have done us proud on the world stage. They have been excellent ambassadors for our country — people like Stephen Roche, Seán Kelly, John Treacy, Barry McGuigan and others.

It is also opportune to mention the Irish soccer team who did us proud in Germany during the week and have been our greatest ever ambassadors in promoting this green isle of ours. We should remember the tremendous success we had abroad in the area of sport. Likewise we should remember that we are handicapped through lack of facilities, proper training and funding for those people who cannot afford it themselves.

The wording of the motion tonight deals with the way the money is being allocated and calls for an independent commission to be set up to monitor its distribution. The way in which profits are distributed is to be looked at. First, the national lottery has become a mini bank which Ministers and Ministers of State raid when there is a public demand for a service which is not provided for in departmental Estimates.

Secondly, in relation to grants for community activities, political considerations are the major if not the only criteria on which these allocations are judged. It is regrettable that in distributing the proceeds, Ministers and Ministers of State are seeking to give the impression that they themselves or their Departments have provided the funds. This is nothing more than short-sighted political expediency. Apart from any other consideration, it is no way to promote the advantages and the benefits of the national lottery. If Fianna Fáil continue with their present operation of looting national lottery funds in order to provide "hello money" for their anxious backbenchers, the days of the national lottery are numbered.

Figures of disbursements up to the end of April 1988 provide hard evidence that the moneys are being distributed by politcal whim, as a national Fianna Fáil reelection slush fund, and that the era of the stroke politics has returned. It is a fact that the average level of pay-out of lottery funds to date has been £10 per head of population nationwide. It is also true that the levels vary from county to county in accordance with the political demand of the governing Fianna Fáil Party. Sligo, the base of the Minister, Deputy MacSharry, has received a massive £27 per head of population which is nearly three times the national average. The entire Dublin region, the base of five further Cabinet Members has received £18 per head of its population and this is nearly twice the national average. It also received future commitments of further substantial amounts in order to fund the proposed national sports centre. Galway, the base of the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, a curator of some of the lottery funds, has received £16 per head of its population, also well above the national average. My own native county of Cork has received the derisory sum of £4 per head of its population and if we are to believe what we read in The Cork Examiner, we would have not got any of this expert for the hard work of Deputy Batt O'Keeffe who claims to have brought practically all of the lottery money to County Cork. He even claims to have brought money to clubs that did not even contact him with a request for lottery funds, much to the annoyance of his Fianna Fáil colleagues in County Cork.

It is this kind of political one-up-manship or political hypocrisy that has given politicians a bad name. We read in the national papers practically every day how lottery funds are being misused and abused. A banner heading in The Cork Examiner, dated 20 April 1988 reads: “O'Keeffe Claims Big Grant Coup”. The article went on to state that the Cork TD claimed that by his personal efforts he had secured grants totalling £125,000 for the area. Fianna Fáil Deputy Batt O'Keeffe contacted The Cork Examiner to say that he had got £50,000 for Riverstick Community Centre in amenity grants from the Department of the Environment. When asked to explain his role in the allocation of the money given by the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Flynn, Deputy O'Keeffe said he had processed the matter on behalf of the local people who had applied for the grant. Asked if he was suggesting that the grant would not have been forthcoming but for his efforts he replied: “You can take that as being absolutely certain”.

He went on to state that he got £40,000 from the same Department for the regional park in Ballincollig and also that he secured £25,000 for the Grange Frankfield Community Centre in Douglas. When commenting on the grants as a whole he said: "I am absolutely delighted that as one Deputy I have ensured that £125,000 has come into the area from the Department". Also he was hoping to have over £100,000 coming from other Departments.

On the following day, 21 April, The Cork Examiner again carried a big heading which stated: “Cork TD's Grand Claims Rejected”. The article went on to say that claims by a Cork Deputy that he had personally secured £125,000 in grants for his local area were yesterday knocked by other Dáil Deputies and led to further allegations that national lottery money was being abused by Fianna Fáil Deputies and Ministers. Deputy Batt O'Keeffe told The Cork Examiner that a £50,000 remedial grant for the Riverstick Community Association, amongst others, would not have been forthcoming but for his efforts. The Cork Examiner were told that the £50,000 was national lottery money channelled through the Department of the Environment. The article went on to state that the annoyance at Deputy O'Keeffe's claim was not just confined to Opposition parties and inside Fianna Fáil it was known there was considerable private resentment at this attempt at stroke politics.

In another front page article in the Irish Independent of 26 May the heading was “Lottery Forked Out Unrequested £175,000”. In the article Fine Gael accused the Government of abusing the system and claimed that £175,000 had been misappropriated in the County Dublin area. It accused the Government of allocating money to 23 projects for which no official applications were made. Surely this is ridiculous when we are talking about taxpayers' money being dished out without any accountability whatsoever.

I have in my possession a letter from the Department of the Environment, signed by Mr. P. Sweeney, Assistant Principal Officer, to the Manager of Dublin County Council. It relates to a number of projects which are being grant-aided and he was informing the manager of Dublin County Council of this. The letter states:

Dear Manager,

I am directed by the Minister for the Environment to refer to previous correspondence regarding grants under this Department's 1988 amenity grant scheme finance from National Lottery surplus funds and to inform you that grant allocations have been made by the Minister for the following projects in your area....

The letter specifically deals with a total of 49 projects and includes the 23 which I have already mentioned, where there was no proper application form for them. I hope to mention a few of them in passing. The list is as follows: first, the Malahide Castle Regional Playground Park and the allocation was £15,000; followed by improvements at Kingfisher site, Portmarnock, £10,000; Inisfails GAA Club, Balgriffin, £15,000; St. Bridget's GAA Club, Navan Road, £50,000; Coolmine RFC, Palmerstown, £15,000; planting at St. Anne's National School, Esker, £500; CBSI provision of trees at Larch Hill, £500; Knocklyon Community Centre, £5,000; shrub and tree planting at Seagrange, £100; Donabate Scouts, £10,000; Garristown Hall, £5,000; Loughshinny Motor Cycle Club, £3,000; Lusk United FC, £5,000; Naul Hall, £2,000; St. Maurs Boxing Club, Rush, £1,000; Rush Scouts, £1,000; Swords Family Care, £2,000; Swords Historical Society, £2,500; Swords Tennis Club, £3,000; Broadmeadow Anglers' Association, £1,000; St. Colmcille's CBSI Swords, £3,000; Tallaght United Football Club £25,000; Loughshinny CYMS, £1,000. The letter goes on to state:

...To assist in administering the scheme, copies of the application forms submitted to the Department in respect of the projects being grant-aided are also enclosed.

The next line of the letter is the important line. It states:

In some cases fully completed application forms are still awaited from project sponsors. These are especially indicated in the list above.

These are the 23 projects that I have mentioned.

Another item to which I would like to draw attention is the grant conditions whereby national lottery money is being given out to amenities. This is covered under a list of conditions — 12 in all — from the Amenity Grant Scheme, 1988 (Finance from National Lottery). Condition No. 2 on that list states:

The grant allocation is made on the understanding that a local contribution of at least 30 per cent will be made towards the cost of the project.

This has led to a section 4 motion being put down in the names of Councillors Nora Owen, Joan Maher and Tom Hand on 13 June 1988. It states:

We the members of Dublin County Council pursuant to Section 4 of the City and County Management (Amendment) Act 1955, hereby require and direct the Dublin City and County Manager or any Assistant Manager having delegated powers to report to the Council how he proposes to spend the £15,000 from the Lottery for provision of a playgound in Malahide Demesne indicating in his reply:

(a) where the Council will find the 30 per cent of costs for the project as required under condition 2 of the Lottery grant conditions published by the Department of the Environment and

(b) the total cost of the provision of this playground.

In his reply, Mr. G.W. Redmond, Assistant City and County Manager stated:

The estimated cost of providing the proposed playground at Malahide Demesne is £45,000. Portion of the Council's contribution will relate to wages of existing staff for which provision has already been made in the current year's estimate.

I reject that. The provision could not have been made already because the Malahide Demesne was a new project being financed by the national lottery. The new project would not have been taken into account when deciding the estimates and indeed striking the rate. In other words, the money referred to must cover existing work which must be dropped and the staff redeployed, or else if that work did not exist, the money was being provided to pay people who were idle. Because the Malahide Demesne is a new project, that statement could not be correct. Perhaps the Minister might clarify that point for me. The reply continues:

On the assumption that it would be the wish of the Council to avail of the opportunity presented by the grant, it is the intention to meet the additional expenditure involved, by overspending in the programme to which the project will be charged and reporting the over-expenditure involved before the end of the year to the County Council, seeking consent of the members under Section 11 of the City and County Management (Amendment) Act, 1955. The over-expenditure involved will be in the region of £23,000.

This is totally contrary to a letter sent out by the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Flynn, last October or November. The Minister's letter sent out to all the local authority areas stated: that under no circumstances was there to be an over-run of expenditure in the moneys allocated to local authorities. Each local authority area would have to live within its means. Now we have a different story. In order to avail of national lottery funds, local authorities are being encouraged to borrow money.

The heading in the Tipperary Star of 20 May 1988 was “Corrupt and Immoral Lottery Allocations Create Uproar.” It states:

The distribution of national lottery funds by Fianna Fáil Ministers to organisations in County Tipperary, seven of which had not fully completed application forms was described during a heated debate in North Tipperary County Council's Chamber as bordering on the corrupt and certainly immoral. The Council had been told that a total of £162,500 had been allocated to 21 projects in the county, seven of which had received £47,500, but had still not furnished fully completed application forms.

In the Kerryman/Corkman dated 6 May the leading article states: “The game is up for the lottery politicians.” It further states:

The manner in which grants from the proceeds of the national lottery are being announced are wholly unacceptable. The affair has taken on all the worst connotations of base political opportunism. Political stroke pulling should have no part to play in the distribution of these funds. Huge cash windfalls which belong to us all, and which should be distributed according to the most stringent and correct conditions should not be rifled by politicians in the narrow interest of personal political capital. It is the unseemly rush back to the constituencies by Fianna Fáil Oireachtas members to announce the goodies which causes concern and annoyance. By the behaviour of some members of the governing party, one would not be surprised if they had the outstanding temerity to claim that the money belonged to them, a kind of personal vote getting slush fund. This tomfoolery must cease at once.

In The Cork Examiner on Tuesday, 24 May the heading was “Lottery Methods Criticised”. In the article it was stated that lottery funds had clearly fallen into political hands, a political slush fund is what the national lottery has become. I could go on and on and give plenty more examples or more extracts from the different papers around the country but the message is the same.

The Government must surely recognise that there is a danger that the general public could become very cynical about the way lottery moneys are disbursed. They do not have to have a specific example in mind, merely a suspicion that no Government could pass up the chance of making political capital out of lottery disbursements. This is an issue which will not go away. The lottery is drawing in millions of pounds every month, far more than had ever been expected. In view of that, perhaps the time has come to review the criteria applicable to disbursements. One of the most worrying aspects of the national lottery is the absence of a single application form, or procedure, whereby groups or communities could apply for funds. Another worrying aspect is the extent of ministerial involvement in the decisions taken and the announcements on how the funds will be allocated. This is the case particularly in the Department of Education because of the size of its allocation.

The national lottery is one of the most significant legacies bequeathed by the Coalition Government to the present Administration. I appeal to the Minister not to undo its success to date and urge him to accept the motion.

I second the motion, and will speak later.

Sitting suspended at 7.3 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.

We have had a long contribution from Senator Kelleher on this motion endeavouring to establish an independent authority to determine the manner in which allocations from the national lottery funds are made and disbursed. I can recall clearly when the National Lottery Bill was being passed in this House and in the Dáil about two years ago there was a good debate in both Houses and much public comment from many sections of the community. One of the main criticisms of its provisions related to the powers being given to the Minister. Of the 36 sections of that Act there are about eight or ten in which the Minister is mentioned specifically as having extremely important powers. As the then Opposition party that formed part of our normal opposition. We did not oppose the Bill overall. I can recall that the only section we did oppose at the time was section 5 (1) which reads:

Moneys paid into the Central Fund pursuant to section 8 of this Act shall be applied for—

(a) The purposes of such one or more of the following, and in such amounts, as the Government may determine from time to time, that is to say, sport and other recreation, national culture (including the Irish language), the arts (within the meaning of the Arts Act, 1951) and the health of the community, and

(b) Such (if any) other purposes, and in such amounts, as the Government may determine from time to time.

I understand that the Government, in accordance with section 5 (b), have included youth and welfare as areas deserving of financial aid, which is totally in accordance with the provisions of the Act.

Section 8 (1) and (2) (a) reads:

The Minister shall cause to be established in the Central Bank of Ireland a fund which shall be known as the National Lottery Fund and is referred to in this Act as "the Fund".

The Fund shall be managed and controlled by the Minister and shall consist of a current account and an investment account.

Two years ago the then Government introduced this Bill. Clearly they wanted the Minister to manage the fund and control the fund. It was their Bill. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why, a short time later, they want to change its provisions to include an independent authority. Given the inclusion of an independent authority or commission is no guarantee that all will be well in that area, if that is what worries the Opposition. Supposing, for example, there was an independent commission comprised of sporting, cultural and other groupings they would be a neutral, faceless grouping. If that provision had been included in the Bill, we could not have a debate of this type because they would not be responsible to the Minister. Certainly questions could not be tabled in the Dáil regarding the running of the national lottery. The essence of any democracy is that, in regard to funding like this, there must be ministerial responsibility, public accountability.

Much has been said about the use of the money or what is wrong with its use. I see very little wrong. I know of no cause that has received or is about to receive financial aid that does not deserve it. The example, what is wrong with helping a local GAA club, a soccer club, basketball or rugby club or the other sporting organisations that have been part and parcel of our society for years. What is wrong with improving the pitches of Ireland? What is wrong with building or improving pavilions or dressing rooms?

Senator Kelleher referred to the success of the national lottery. It is a success for two reasons. It is a success because the Irish like a gamble. It is a success because the Irish people know that money is being allocated to projects in their town, village or city. Therefore they know they are helping, by buying lottery tickets, to provide additional sporting and other facilities for their area. I do not know why there should be a suggestion even of criticism of organisations, youth clubs, residents' associations getting funding from the national lottery. It provides an opportunity for community and residents groups to avail of its funding and, in so doing, to improve their areas giving them a sense of pride in their local surroundings and workplaces. Application for such funding is a well-known, established procedure. You complete an application form. The property, by way of gymnasium, pavilion, dressingroom, pitch, or whatever is subsequently inspected by the appropriate departmental inspector. He may make one or two visits; I am not sure. Certainly any application is investigated at that level by various departmental inspectors. I do not see anything wrong with that; it is perfectly legitimate and normal. This Government are spending the money totally in accordance with the provisions of the legislation passed two years ago. They are spending such moneys totally in accordance with what was then a controversial section, section 5.

I had the honour and pleasure of being in Germany last week for the three Irish matches. It is perhaps appropriate that we are debating this matter this evening. We know that a steering committee has been organised within the Government to develop an indoor national complex in Dublin with a 50 metre pool. This is why I think this debate is appropriate, I suggest to the Government also that they should prepare plans as soon as possible for a national stadium, whether that be an upgrading of existing facilties in the city, on virgin territory or wherever but it is a must for the future. I accept that Germany is a much wealthier country than ours. We are light years away from them in terms of sporting facilities. I would have to pay a very fine tribute to the Irish team who, possibly, were lacking in some of the skills of their opponents but were all heart; they gave of their very best and certainly let no one down. The Irish supporters, who enjoyed the matches in full carnival atmosphere at the event, as Senator Kelleher said, were the finest ambassadors this country ever produced.

The allocation of national lottery funds to an indoor sports complex, a proper national stadium is totally in accordance with the wishes of the people buying the national lottery tickets. That is what they want. The Government know what is required. I am in no doubt that, in time, both of those sporting facilities will be available to our people.

Reverting to the motion I must reiterate that the then Government had their chance to establish an independent authority if that was what they wanted. It was they who drafted the Bill, who prepared it and piloted it through both Houses. If they missed the boat two years ago so be it. I do not wish to be unfair in any way but there is very little point in crying about it now. There may be an element of jealousy on the part of the Opposition that the present Government are implementing the provision in section 8 (2) (a) that the fund should be managed and controlled by the Minister. That is what the Government are doing. The Opposition had their chance and did not avail of it. Therefore, they must now live with what is happening.

It was very interesting to hear Senator Fallon's contribution. However, I think he was living somewhat in cloud cuckooland. It is not a question of the Government who introduced this legislation missing the boat or that those who were members of the Government at that time are now suffering a form of jealousy. The fact remains that were that Government still in office, it would not be necessary to have this motion before us.

There was much discussion over many years on whether we should have a national lottery here. While many favoured it, many others opposed it. I was not in favour of a national lottery because I feared the consequences it might have for our gambling public. We are a gambling nation and each of us takes a gamble of some kind or another practically every day. Some of us are inclined to go overboard in our gambling. The national lottery has got a great deal of people into trouble on the spending end. I have witnessed the purchase of as many as 24 lottery tickets by one person. That person was on social welfare and it was on the day that he received his social welfare payment that he purchased 24 tickets. However, that can be left for another day. That is not what we are here to discuss this evening; we are discussing the effect of the funds being disbursed by Ministers of State and the perception that Deputies and Fianna Fáil councillors have been handing out the money from this purse over the past 12 months.

The national lottery has been a success beyond our wildest dreams. I do not think anybody envisaged that the amount of money that has come in from the national lottery would have come in in the short time it has been in existence. It has given the Government a handsome purse from which to distribute money throughout the country, but I am afraid the Government Ministers and Ministers of State and the Fianna Fáil Party generally have lost their heads.

Senator McMahon, I dislike interrupting you, but I would like as Cathaoirleach or Speaker of the Seanad, warmly to welcome Senator Cooney from Australia and his party to the Seanad.

I do not object to you interrupting me, but you have frightened me, by telling me there are such eminent people in the Chamber. It is very fitting and I am delighted that you have had the opportunity of welcoming so distinguished a person and his party to the Chamber. They are very welcome.

Before Senator McMahon continues, let me as Leader of the House also welcome Senator Cooney to the Seanad. The links between Ireland and Australia were forged by the problems associated with the start of the Australian State. In their bi-centennial year it is fitting that we should have people coming to us from Australia. A very eminent historian in Senator Cooney's party, Dr. Portia Robinson has written much about the Irish Australian connection and we also welcome her to the House. The Australian bi-centennial might seem to be inappropriate in the year in which Dublin is celebrating its millennium; nevertheless, we are proud of the part we played in setting up the great country that Australia is. We welcome them to the House.

Perhaps the Minister would like to be associated with the welcome.

On behalf of the Government and on my own behalf I would like to welcome Senator Cooney to the Seanad and say how delighted we are that he is here. There was a great bond of friendship between Ireland and Australia over the years which culminated in the visit of the Australian Prime Minister, Mr. Hawke, to Ireland earlier this year. We are delighted that the Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, will be reciprocating that visit during the summer.

As regards my own county, I am delighted to say that Robert O'Hara Burke, whose statue stands in Melbourne, was the first man to sail from west to east which illustrates clearly the great connection there is between Ireland and Australia. We are delighted you are with us and we hope you enjoy your stay.

I would like to be associated with all those remarks and to say that in my young days Australia was a distant land but today the world seems much smaller than it seemed then. Anybody the Senator or any member of his party may come in contact with here in Dublin will have some relation, however distant, in Australia. I have very close relations in Australia. I have first cousins there whom I have never met. Today I am glad to say that Australia is much closer to us, let me pay tribute to the co-operation between Australia and this country particularly in student exchanges. We all know many Irish students who have benefited from their trips to Australia and taking part in the farming and other activities there. Long may our relationship and friendship last.

The Fianna Fáil Party in Government find themselves with a fattening purse and money at their disposal for the sporting, arts and community projects etc., this money was intended for. I would not like to accuse the Government of spending that money on any project that was not deserving of it. There is a long list of projects which can be and are assisted by Government aid. In my perusal of the long list of those who have benefited since the Government began disbursing money in practically every parish in the country, like Senator Fallon, I cannot find any organisation that was not worthy of grant-aid, but I can find many organisations more worthy of assistance than many of those who got it. This is where the trouble starts and that is the reason this motion is before us today.

Insufficient attention has been paid to this by the Government and the various Ministers and Ministers of State who have taken down the piece of paper to their constituencies and passed it to numbers of organisations — some of them not even organisations. I know of one instance not far from my area of assistance given for the planting of trees at a primary school. That is very worthy, particularly in County Dublin where many trees have disappeared in the past few years. There is also the Kilnamanagh Family Recreation Centre Limited who for 15 years have been accumulating funds in a not so well off area where the unemployment ratio is nearly the highest in the country. Eight years ago they embarked on the building of a community centre. From almost 2,000 houses those people have to date collected the sum of £240 per house. They collected a total of £288,000 from a not so well off area of County Dublin. They were given a site by the local authority and last October they signed a contract for the building of that centre costing £588,000. People in that general area are baffled as to why they were excluded from this handout or any previous handouts. They have their contract signed; they have their firm on site working to built the community centre. They need grant-aid, and £60,000 was promised to them by Dublin County Council but this had to be cut at the estimates meeting last year because of the action of Fianna Fáil in refusing to impose charges for the county.

In other words, they were promised £60,000 and they budgeted for that £60,000 in the contract they had signed with the contractor to build the community centre. Then the county council reneged on that deal, which means they were worse off than they would have been had it never been promised to them. Despite that they have not figured in any of the handouts that I have seen over the past 12 months. I was bitterly disappointed, and I think I speak for all public representatives in the area. Perhaps the Fianna Fáil representation was not strong enough. Perhaps those who were on the committee of the Kilnamanagh Family Recreation Centre were apolitical. If they had Fianna Fáil cumann members running the matter they might have got their allocation — that is the impression that is abroad. That is the qualification for disbursement for these funds.

Senator Kelleher mentioned — and I have evidence of this — that some organisations, committees and clubs have been notified that they are to get an allocation from these funds and they have not even filled in an application form. I am sorry Senator Fallon is not here to hear that but surely he heard Senator Kelleher make that point. I do not know how it arrives on the Minister's desk. Is it through the Fianna Fáil cumann or the local Fianna Fáil TD? Somehow many allocations have been made to clubs throughout the country, a number of them in my area, who have not applied, yet the Kilnamanagh family recreation centre have been approaching public representatives of all shades and lobbying Dublin County Council for financial assistance. If they do not get it, this project, a £588,000 contract can easily fall by the wayside. In all 126 people have worked voluntarily for years to gather £288,000 locally in an area where there is high unemployment and they have been completely ignored. There is no justification for this.

I do not begrudge the money that has been given to any organisation or any primary school to plant trees on their campus. They are entitled to it, but that is not the Minister's responsibility. The Minister's responsibility is to see that he gets fair value for the money being given to these clubs. If you can tell me that planting trees around a primary school is more important than building a community centre for a 2,000 house estate in Kilnamanagh, Tallaght, then the Minister is not fit to be a Minister. Any Minister who could hand out funds to an organisation who had not even applied for it and then ignore an organisation who have been lobbying public representatives for two, three of four years to finance their project——

Senator, I dislike interrupting you, but let me say in fairness I have a very solid rule while I Chair this House it somebody is not here to defend himself. You remarked that somebody was not fit to be a Minister. You might think so, but it is a pretty strong statement. I would say this no matter who was in question.

I am not referring to any one in particular because a number of them are involved and these grants are being thrown around like confetti to wherever they happen to fall. At least it appears so to some people. I suspect that, if there was a strong Fianna Fáil element within that organisation, irrespective of how deserving they were as against another organisation in the area, they would get the allocation. This is not how a Minister should behave. When any Deputy becomes a Minister he should legislate for the country and for the people, not for particular organisations. As I have said, some of them did not get on his desk; they did not make an application.

The £150,000 Clondalkin community centre is now closed for renovation and waiting for finance which the local authority cannot give to it because of Fianna Fáil's attitude on the local authority. Another major project has been ignored either by the Minister for the Environment or whatever Ministers dispersed these funds. It is about time the Government sat down and had a look at what is happening, if they are not going to accept this motion this evening. I do not believe there is any political gain in it. People will not be fooled by that kind of behaviour any more and they are not being fooled by it. For every one you satisfy ten are not satisfied and, the case can be made that the ten organisations who are not receiving the grant are more entitled to it than many of the organisations who got it. How much time have I?

Your time is about finished. Senator Nioclás Ó Conchubhair. Did you indicate to me?

I wish to speak.

I have not got your name in front of me, Senator O'Callaghan. Could the Senators divide their time?

I think we can go on past 8 o'clock. We made a decision earlier about the divisions in the Dáil. There was a break of some minutes for a vote and we decided we would take it tonight rather than tomorrow night.

There is another vote due at 8 o'clock.

I will not take up to 8.15 p.m. I suppose this is a political arena and one has to resign oneself to having political debates. There is a great lack of political reality about this whole debate. The Bill was debated at great length in June 1986, two years ago. I listened with great interest to Senator McMahon's revelation that his group were waiting four years for grant-aid for the project about which he was concerned. This Bill was before the House in June 1986 and obviously others were neglected before this Government took office.

There is a great level of political unreality about this business. If I wanted to be politically crude I could say that what is happening now is exactly what happens when Governments change. I will quote from Deputy Michael O'Kennedy's comments as reported in the Official Report of 26 June 1986, column 1220, volume 368: "The Minister must think this House very naive if he thinks it will give this Government or any Government such all embracing powers on the basis of general statements of intent from the Minister of State introducing the Bill."

He was expressing concern that the content of the Bill as introduced by the Coalition in 1986 was such that it could conceivably be abused but it is a fact of life that the Government and the Minister have responsibility to disburse funds and Solomon in all his majesty could not solve every problem. If we contrast the expenditure of £100 for the planting of trees in a primary school with a sizeable development such as Senator McMahon referred to, the debate lacks balance. That £100 would not put a knob on the front door of a community centre.

It was £500 in one case and £100 in another.

Even £500. We should not carp. This Administration have responsibility and the Minister has to make the ultimate decision in all these cases. I am quite certain everybody who comes to me in my clinics or in my place of residence goes to all parties in the constituency either before visiting me or afterwards. I cannot claim a monopoly in my constituency in relation to submissions made to any Minister. I concede to Senator Kelleher that it is unfortunate and probably a little simplistic that Deputies should be racing home waving documents and saying: "I did this because Johnston does not buy that any more and, God knows, he has not bought it for a long time." Recent election results have indicated that quite conclusively. The citizens of this country are quite competent to make up their own minds and they do not buy the pig in the poke any more of people claiming to have got this or that grant. One party are in Government and another are out and that kind of musical chairs is the essence of politics. It is the reality of the day. There could be an election in a week's time and this Government could be put out of office — I do not think they could but it is conceivable that they might — and we could be here this time next year complaining about the next Minister.

I hope you are wrong.

I am reading extracts from Deputy O'Kennedy's comments when he was quite displeased with Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's contribution to the debate. We have to be political here. I am disappointed that Senator Kelleher is not here because he threw great bouquets to former Minister of State, Deputy Creed. I sat in an area in my constituency four years ago when there was no national lottery and the Minister put his hand in his pocket and produced a cheque for £30,000 from his Department for a project and it was indeed very welcome. I had to sit over in the corner and say: "Fair play to you Donal, that was a very nice piece of work". I admired it from afar and my only regret was that my party were not in office. There was no lottery specifically designed by all parties to support and assist sporting organisations and so on. Let us not be nitpicking about the national lottery.

When he made his submission on this Bill, Deputy Creed said he hoped that 75 per cent of the total figure disbursed would go towards sport. I subscribe to that kind of sentiment because at long last we see funds available for sporting organisations. Senator McMahon referred to an area in his own constituency where there are 2,000 houses. I live in a part of the world where there are not even 2,000 people. We are striving with might and main to keep the young people on the land in rural Ireland. Assistance in the shape of grant-aid from the national lottery will assist a local GAA club, a handball club, a branch of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, or whatever the case may be, to improve the quality of life in these places so that young boys and girls do not have to go to Australia, the United Kingdom or the United States of America to find the kind of facilities we hope to provide — and are providing at present — in rural Ireland as well as in urban Ireland.

We attach great significance to the athletic achievements of the people, and so we should. For example, last Sunday in excess of a quarter of a million people turned out to welcome home our national soccer team. This is an indication of the importance people attach to international achievement by our sportsmen, which is arrived at in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. We do not have all-weather playing facilities, or enough swimming pools, tennis courts and football pitches. I could go right across the spectrum. At least now there is light at the end of the tunnel, and we should not go down on the road of point scoring because clubs do not want to be embroiled in political point scoring. They do not need that kind of thing. They are volunteers in the business of providing facilities for the young or, quite often, the old and we should be striving with might and main to assist them.

At least now we have funds. The lottery has exceeded our wildest expectations in monetary return and I hope that, under whatever heading, sporting, cultural, health or whatever, we can exhort clubs with some degree of confidence to apply for lottery funds.

I live in a part of this country which was suffering from a dwindling population. Young people were running from the land, even before the present emigration crisis, simply because there was nothing to keep them here. They could see on television the kind of facilities provided abroad; now we can provide them ourselves. I only hope that in 25 years' time, if any of us are in this House to debate it, we can say we achieved so much with the funds accruing from the national lottery. Let us not get bogged down in political nitpicking because in a year, three years or even a month somebody else could be disbursing the funds and our party possibly complaining. Tonight we should be praising the Minister for what he has achieved. If he were Solomon himself he could not solve the problems of all the applicants.

Debate adjourned.

It is just 7.58 p.m. There is a vote in the other House and the Minister will have to leave. We were to go back to Items Nos. 2 and 3 on the Order Paper. Would Senator Willie Ryan indicate to me if he proposes a sos? I understand the Minister for Communications will be returning.

We will resume at 8.15 p.m.

Is 8.15 p.m. agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 8 o'clock and resumed at 8.15 p.m.
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