I move:
That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:
Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Order, 1988
a copy of which Order in draft was laid before Seanad Éireann on the 23rd day of November, 1988.
Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Order, 1988: Motion.
Section 23 of the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Act, 1977, as amended by section 21 of the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Act, 1988, empowers me as the Minister for Labour, after consultation with the Minister for Finance and other appropriate Ministers, to prescribe by order the number of directors or board members of State bodies covered by the Acts including the number to be appointed after election by the workers. The Acts require, broadly speaking, that elected representatives should make up one-third of the membership of each board.
In the case of the National Rehabilitation Board, however, there is provision for elected representatives to make up less than one-third of board membership. The reason for this is that the membership of the National Rehabilitation Board must be sufficiently large to allow for representation of a variety of specialist expertise and is, therefore, large in comparison with the size of the organisation. On the recommendation of the Minister for Health, and in consultation with the Minister for Finance, it has been decided that the board size of the NRB should be 15 with three members to be elected by the workforce. This would maintain the level of worker representation at the level established in practice over the last number of years and which has been agreed with the unions representing the employees of the board.
I will also be making a related statutory order, entitled the Worker Participation Acts, 1977 and 1988 (Appointed Day) (National Rehabilitation Board) Order, 1988, the effect of which will require the NRB to hold worker director elections under the worker participation legislation in 1989. I understand in fact that these elections will be held early in the New Year. This will bring to ten the number of State-sponsored bodies which have worker directors appointed under the Worker Participation Acts.
Under the 1988 Act one other body, Aer Rianta plc, was added to the list of bodies designated to have worker representation at board level. I will be bringing a similar order before both Houses to fix the board size and the related number of worker directors to be elected by the workforce for this company.
I recommend that the House approve the draft order.
I am sure the Minister will be glad to know that it is certainly not my intention to delay him too long at this stage of the day. From the comments passed by the Fine Gael Party both in this House and in the other House during the passage of the Act earlier in the year the Minister will certainly be aware of our full support for this type of legislation and our hope that the whole process of industrial democratisation will increase significantly over the coming number of years. There is no need for me to go into the whole scenario behind this type of legislation. The spirit of co-operation which results from the participation of workers in the running of their companies helps to avoid confrontation within the company. It brings about a better atmosphere between management and workers and overall is very helpful to the relevant companies and to the economy in general. We can only hope that there will be an increase in that type of activity over the coming number of years.
Reading through some of the words spoken in both Houses on the passage of the main Act, I noted the almost unanimous view of all speakers and all parties that this type of legislation is very favourable. One of the points that was made and should be noted was made by Deputy Mitchell who spoke of the need for mandatory female representation on some of these boards. He made the point that, looking at the present list of worker directors throughout the different companies, one would get the impression that perhaps female representation was not as high as it should be. It is a point I just make in passing.
I do not think there is anything further that needs to be said at present. As a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies, I can say we have been meeting with some of the boards in question and found from our discussions with them that everything seems to be working very well at present. I believe this will continue and that an extention of this sort of legislation will be good for the economy and good for the companies concerned.
I welcome this order which advances the election of workers directors to the National Rehabilitation Board. Just a few more general comments. Any initiative or practice that draws out the energies and skills of workers to their full potential is very much a step in the right direction. The worker director idea and its application gives workers a real say in making decisions. For workers themselves there is plenty of evidence to suggest that they have accumulated a lot of knowledge and a lot of very valuable insights into the enterprises in which they work, much of which goes largely untapped. The worker director idea in practice should help to draw out those energies and ideas for the benefit of all concerned. Workers have a particular interest in the success of their enterprises not least because they earn their livelihoods from them.
Board representation and the reporting back to the staff that takes place from the worker directors heighten workers' knowledge about the objectives of enterprises leading to a better understanding of what all are trying to achieve. I add my approval to the order and look forward to the Aer Rianta order coming before us shortly.
I would also like to put very firmly on the record, as I did in supporting the original legislation, that I feel that this is further evidence of the progressive thinking of the Department of Labour and the present incumbent of the office of Minister for Labour. He deserves to be congratulated on taking this through. I noticed a wry smile on his face when he was forecasting to us that he would shortly be coming in with a similar order for Aer Rianta and that he had finally guided it through its teething problems in this area which were not easy to get through.
I feel that, whatever differences one might have with the way things come out of the Department of Labour at the end of the day, the Minister's commitment in this area is above reproach and it is great to see that it is welcomed by all sides of the House. It was something that the trade union movement had been looking for and pushing for for years.
I do not intend to go back over the points I made during the discussion on the original legislation, but I think it is important to reiterate what has been touched on by both previous speakers, and the Minister himself, that the fund of knowledge that is there among the workforce needs to be channelled into deciding on the direction of the company. We now have probably the best of all worlds in these type of operations. We have people who normally sit on opposite sides of the table to each other in union management talks who in this situation simply have to come together with common cause.
The unfortunate thing about this change has been that the private sector as usual are so slow to follow up on it — perhaps not so much that they are slow to follow up on it, which one could understand, but that they are so slow to recognise the value of this type of development. I discussed it with a number of people in manufacturing industry over the past number of weeks and I found that the thinking in the private sector on this issue is very difficult to comprehend. The value of this order and the value of the type of legislation that has been enacted under the Worker Participation Act has been simply this, that no longer can people say: "I am sitting here representing the workforce" or: "I am sitting here representing the management of the factory."
Now, as well as having those responsibilities, people also have to recognise that their prior commitment is to making the industry a profitable one and one that is able to take its place in any sort of competitive market. As well as representing the workers, the worker director has also to be absolutely clear that every decision made around that table is for the good of the company. The good of the company must by definition mean the good of the worker. As I have said time and again, the worker who is being paid a wage or a salary — in other words, being paid for what he or she can offer — has a total commitment to the company and cannot move here, there or elsewhere at the end of the day. Therefore, the worker director must guarantee and must work for and support every possible move that will improve the security of tenure of those workers who have elected him or her to the position of worker director.
All in all, it seems that it also has an important spin-off effect in the area of industrial relations, and this has not been adverted to. It must be taken into account that both sides of the divide, the union and management people, sit together as the board of directors fighting for the same cause. Therefore, when they meet the following week, sitting on both sides of the table arguing about conditions of employment, or conditions of service, or wages, or whatever it is, at least they both know each other that bit better and both will have to be constrained by what they know as directors.
It is important and progressive legislation. I welcome it. The Minister is to be congratulated on moving forward with this type of legislation. I know the Minister is working on important labour legislation at present. I also hope that, taking into account the experience of this Bill going through this House, where the Minister was able to listen to a frank and open discussion and make a number of changes arising out of the discussion here, when he is introducing that important legislation he will introduce it in this House where it will get a reasoned and thoughtful debate.
I would like to welcome the legislation, too. Certainly it is grand to see some non-controversial legislation coming into any of the Houses. I add my voice to that of Senator O'Toole in complimenting the Minister on the way he is handling the Department in general. It is very welcome indeed.
The one matter I would be a little bit concerned about is, as Senator O'Toole mentioned, this question of the private sector mentality. They still have the mentality of "It is our job to manage. When we are done with deciding what we want to do we will put it to you and it is your job to either say you will accept it or reject it." Obviously, if that is going to continue it will mean confusion rather than progress. It is an awful pity that they would not start taking some risks.
Certainly, the position is not as clear-cut for the private sector as it is for the State sector. Nevertheless, this is available for them. In the final analysis any extension of democracy has to be good for society, particularly when it comes down to a choice among people. As you extend democracy you are nearing the point where you have an individual choice in industry. The other attitude is this. The private sector people may well believe — I do not know — that there is no such thing as a permanent job now and that people are not going to be there for years but people are going to be there for a substantial length of time and their daily lives and the progress of the company will be affected by that. Therefore, I do not think that mentality should obtain, that is, if it does.
Again, I would like to congratulate the Minister on this non-controversial piece of legislation and we look forward to the further legislation in the future.
I would like to thank the Senators for their support on this order and particularly for their support right through. I think the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Act, will be very helpful in any of the companies in the semi-State sector where we bring it in. I look forward to being back with the Aer Rianta order in the New Year.
Just to conclude, I can assure Senator O'Toole that generally in regard to the work of the Worker Participation Acts we will continue to try to push that in many of the sub-board areas as well. In regard to the 38 organisations or so that we passed here in the Seanad during the course of 1988, a lot of work has taken place for the implementation of that. This legislation has given a further role to the workers, and a role that is very useful.
I thank the Senators for their support for this legislation. It is something I believe in. Today in the other House we had the opportunity of moving the First Stage of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill, which I will be back here with again. Its purpose is to involve the workers directly in safety and health matters and to ensure that they have a full say. I am glad to see that in the Seanad we have this all-party support, which gives us more confidence to progress with other legislation which is at various stages and in which workers have a major involvement.
Question put and agreed to.
When is it proposed to sit again?
At 12 noon tomorrow, Friday, 16 December 1988.