It is proposed to take item No. 1, the Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill, 1989 — to conclude no later than 4.30 p.m. — and item No. 2.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, would the Leader of the House be prepared to consider ordering later this session — I do not mean immediately — a full debate on Anglo-Irish relations, as we had on a previous occasion in the House?
Would it be in order to express the feeling of shock which I am sure this House experienced over the assassination of the President of Lebanon yesterday? Could I support what Senator Manning has said with regard to the motion on Northern Ireland? I would also ask the Leader of the House if he could give an indication as to when he proposes to have the debate on the Middle East? He indicated that this would be coming. Might I ask him to indicate to the House when he will be facilitating this side of the House with regard to item No. 6 — the introduction of a Bill — so that I may have permission formally to move the printing and introduction of the Bill?
I was checking with Senator O'Toole that the Leader of the House said that it was intended to conclude the Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill at 4.30 p.m. I do not expect that that is going to present a problem, but I would be rather distressed if we were getting to a unilateral position in which the Leader of the House could decide that an item had to be concluded at a certain time because he said it was concluding then. I have checked that this is not a matter of agreement, so is he actually saying that irrespective of whether the debate is finished or not, it is concluding at 4.30 p.m.? On what basis did he make that statement? As far as I know there was no agreement.
I agree with Senator Manning and Senator Norris in relation to the Anglo-Irish debate that is going on at present, or will be going on shortly in the Dáil. I would like to know whether the Leader of the House will permit a similar debate in the Seanad because of the importance of the matter. Secondly, I asked on the Order of Business the last day — the question was not answered by Senator Lanigan — whether he would allow the Estimates that have just been published to be debated and noted here in the Seanad. Finally, in relation to the matter raised by Senator B. Ryan, while I agree that I do not believe the Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill will take until 4.30 p.m., I would prefer that the matter was left flexible rather than have a unilateral position adopted by the Leader.
On the Estimates, I understood that we were doing the same this year as we did last year. Last year we had 20-25 minutes per speaker on the Estimates under the constraints of the rules for the Seanad. This is my understanding. I would just like the Leader to confirm that. There are two other issues. We had intended that the debate on the Middle East would be taken this week. For the very acceptable reason that the Government were under pressure to introduce and to dispose of the Incitement to Hatred Bill, it was agreed to put it back for a week. It is important that we get the order of things right. We have a commitment to deal with that. I would like, certainly from our point of view, to see it taken next week. The assassination in Lebanon yesterday has underlined and underpinned again the great need to keep that before our eyes at all times. I would certainly hope that that would be up the line and that we would be discussing it later on today.
I would like to come back to the point which I raised yesterday and which I intend raising ad nauseum from now on. I am asking at the moment — and I certainly feel entitled to an adequate response on the issue — that we seek representation on the parliamentary tier of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. We are the only people in either House who represent people on both sides of the Border and, indeed, in the UK. We have a right and an authority to be there. We are insistent that we have representation. I am not making a speech. I will say no more, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. I do not wish to embarrass either yourself or the Leader. I wish to know, if this is not the appropriate place in which to raise it, where it is we should raise it. We are elected to this House. This is where we raise matters. If it is to be taken somewhere else I would ask the Leader or yourself to indicate where it should be taken, but the issue will not go away.
On the last question by Senator O'Toole, may I just say that I have nothing to do with the setting up of committees of this House, or of joint committees. All we can do is discuss this matter at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and find out if there is any way the Senator's group can be accommodated within the committee system, which has nothing to do with us.
On the Estimates, the Senator is quite correct. I said yesterday we will have a debate on the Estimates. The Whips can discuss when that debate will take place. I gave the parameters under which it can take place. If I circulate the proposal that was made the last time and the amendment that was put down, then the Whips can decide when the debate will take place.
It has come across again that there is a need to have a debate on Anglo-Irish affairs and on Middle East affairs. We should leave it to the Whips at their meeting at 12 o'clock today to decide which one can be taken next week, in other words to give priority to those two debates. There is no problem in taking the Middle East debate next week and the Anglo-Irish debate the week after, if that is the wish of the House or if Senators decide that we will take the Anglo-Irish debate next week and Middle East debate the week after, so be it. Now that we have a formal agreement that the Whips meet on a formal basis at 12 o'clock every Thursday we should leave the priority items to them. The Middle East and the Anglo-Irish debates are obviously two very high priority issues.
We have to deal with the Second Stage of the Trustee Savings Banks Bill. There is Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill, 1989 which is a Certified Money Bill, which we have to take next week or the week after because there is a time limit on it.
The Marine Institute Bill will be coming to the House but the Whips can have a look at the various items of business and decide their order of priority over the next couple of weeks. As to the Criminal Justice Bill, I took a unilateral decision this morning. The Whips will be deciding from now on as to what happens. Can we take 4.30 p.m. as a reasonable time to attempt to conclude business today? After today, the Whips will decide the time limits, the parameters, and so forth, but for today please allow me take the decision.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is it agreed to place item No. 6 on the Order of Business? Agreed.
Order of Business agreed to.