Order of Business (Resumed).

Professor Conroy

In relation to the Order of Business and the concern which has been expressed in relation to the appalling outrage in Iraq, I would, first of all, like to join in condemnation of that — and I say this as somebody who has been out in that part of the world on many, many occasions. I find it absolutely appalling and I hope that the Leader of the House will convey our feelings in the matter to the Government.

However, I would like to refer specifically to the nurse, this girl who is a nurse employed by an Irish company. She is one of the very many health care personnel who have gone out to the Middle East. Many of them are organised from this country, either by Irish institutions or by Irish companies. Unfortunately, we cannot do anything more about the journalist but I think we should take every measure possible to see that something is done about this appalling sentence on this girl who simply drove that journalist on his ill-fated journey.

Mr. McMahon

I. too, would like to join in the condemnation of the regime. But I have risen to say a word on item No. 1 and I appeal to the Leader of the House at least to permit a discussion on this matter. I am speaking as one who is not a member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges; one of the first voices from those who are not members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, because Senators who have spoken are members, with the exception of some Independents. Many of our utterances here and much of our behaviour in this session is not bringing credit to this House. I have observed that over the period. I believe that if this matter is voted on without discussion it will add to that list, because we spend time here condemning countries for undemocratic behaviour. I received this document for the first time as I walked into this House for the beginning of this session this morning — and I think that goes for most Members. In fact, I arrived here without it. I am not faulting the staff because I understand it was distributed in Members' pigeonholes during the night or early morning and I should have had it. It is probably on my desk. I glanced through it here this morning. If we were doing what the Leader of the House has asked us to do, the vote that has just taken place would have been the vote on this matter, without my having an opportunity of knowing the facts or studying the implications.

I appeal to the Leader of the House either to change the Order of Business or at least to allow a discussion on it. I would much prefer that this matter be deferred to another day. We have just heard that a court hearing is expected this evening. In the light of that information the Leader of the House should be big enough, and man enough, to recognise that and to at least put the matter in abeyance.

Mr. Ross

I wish to withdraw a remark I made earlier about the Opposition party. My understanding was that there was some arrangement to exclude the Independents. I want to apologise to Senator Manning and Senator Doyle if there was any such implication in what I said and I withdraw it.

Mr. Lanigan

There were a number of points raised. First, the most important issue that has been raised here this morning is the execution in Iraq of the British journalist of Iranian extraction. I join with the other Members of the House in my abhorrence at the execution this morning of that man. I was woken up by one of my children to listen to a very early news bulletin, and it was indeed a very sad awakening for me this morning. There is no way that we can condone the execution of that journalist. Without going into the rights and wrongs of the issue, we must totally and utterly reject the execution of a journalist who, it would seem, was working in a normal fashion.

I take the points raised by Senator Conroy and again appeal to the Iraqi Government to reconsider their position on the question of the nurse. The Iraqis should remember that without the dedication of Irish nursing staff and Irish medical personnel during the war quite a number of Iraqi citizens, military or nonmilitary, would have died horrendous deaths.

I join with the House in the rejection of what happened in Iraq and I will convey in the strongest possible manner the sentiments of the House. It should not be forgotten that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Collins, was one of the first to appeal to the Iraqis not to go ahead with this sentence. Much was not made of that, but he was one of only three European Ministers who got involved in the issue on humanitarian grounds.

On the question of item No. 1, this will not be deferred, and there are a number of reasons for this. Mention has been made here of closed doors. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges is a committee of this House set up by the House to address itself to problems which arise in the House or to address itself to the future of the House——

Mr. O'Toole

On a point of order, that information is incorrect.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader of the House without interruption. Would the Senator please resume his seat?

Mr. O'Toole

I am entitled to make a point of order to direct the House to the fact that the Leader is not giving the full facts about the setting up of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Mr. O'Toole

It certainly is a point of order.

An Cathaoirleach

I am asking the Senator to resume his seat.

Mr. O'Toole

It is a problem of too many people not knowing the rules.

Mr. Lanigan

Item No. 1 will not be deferred under threat of court action. I will not allow this House to defer anything under threat of court action. This is a House of the Oireachtas and I will not be bulldozed into deferring anything because of the threat of court action. The courts can do what they want. This House is a House of the Oireachtas and will not be bulldozed by anybody threatening court action. If that were to be allowed we could come in here every morning under threat of court action, and this is not a place I am going to allow to be threatened by court action.

On the Order of Business I did not suggest that there would be a guillotine or that there would be no debate; but I did suggest, after somebody made a point, that we would have no debate. Listening to the wishes of the House, yes, we can have a debate. Since each group was represented on Committee on Procedure and Privileges, it might be the proper procedure that the members of Committee on Procedure and Privileges should be the people to get involved in this debate. If they so wish, the leaders of the groups, whether they be the Whips or not, should make a statement after listening to the report.

I reject what Senator McMahon said. The report was circulated yesterday. It is not my fault or the Chair's fault if he did not receive his copy of the report until this morning. That is a matter for himself and his secretariat.

I suggest that the debate should be of limited nature. We have to get through all Stages of a Bill today, because of time constraints, and I suggest that there be a limited debate until 12 o'clock.

Mr. Manning

I think the Leader of the House is being unwise. I know from our group that we have one speaker of five or six minutes. I suspect that other groups may have short contributions as well. It would be wiser to let the debate take its normal course because if you try to impose a time limit it will almost certainly be opposed and we may well have further time wasted. Therefore I suggest the most sensible thing is to let the debate roll.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Mar 1990