It is intended that we take item No. 1 today.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, may I ask the Leader of the House two questions, both of which I asked yesterday. The first concerns item No. 11 — the Local Elections Order, 1990. It is my understanding that legal elections must be held in June unless this order is passed by the House. We will be opposing it on this side. I would like to know from the Leader of the House when this will be taken, because the elections are due to be held early next month. It is a matter which needs to be debated fully and early.
I also raised the question yesterday of Mr. Mandela and his address to the Oireachtas. I said yesterday that it was my understanding that it was to be to one House only and I asked whether any representations had been made to the Taoiseach that it should be a joint session. It is my understanding that this morning in the other House, the Taoiseach is to announce that it is to be a single House address only. I would like the Leader of the House to explain what steps have been taken to secure a joint session which I believe, is the wish of all groups in this House.
I raised item No. 7 on the Order Paper with the Leader of the House yesterday. This is an amendment to the Intermediate Education Act. The Leader gave an undertaking that he would check it out with the Minister and I would like to have a reply.
I would also like to make a point that the Leader of the House made certain references to me on the Order of Business yesterday which I intend to deal with next week if the matter has not been resolved in the meantime.
On the question of Nelson Mandela, I indicated that item No. 87 in my name on the Supplementary Order Paper deals with that question. I presume that the civil servants must have been alerted to the fact that there was concern in this House and a desire that there should be a joint meeting.
I would like to deal specifically with one item. Item No. 30 states:
Seanad Éireann expresses concern at the Government's total lack of action in meeting the requirements of last October's judgement in the European Court of Human Rights concerning discrimination against homosexual citizens of Ireland.
I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business that it be taken first as item No. 1. In brief explanation of this, I would like to say that I won this case in the European Court. The Government have ignored it. On the Incitement to Hatred Bill, the Government were forced to include my amendments, although they rejected them in this House, and yesterday in a historical situation with no precedent, directly contrary to what was the intention of the Constitution, the Government were defeated on this issue. Once may be a mistake, an accident twice, a coincidence, three times indicates that at least I am in a situation to do my job. I will be vigilant. The Government will be tripped up further if they do not do the decent thing and alter this legislation. I intend to press this matter. It is not merely a question of accident, it is default by the Government.
I have a couple of matters to raise with the Leader of the House. First, most Members will welcome the developments in Lebanon, the release of several of the hostages. I would like to ask the Leader of the House to convey the support of this House to the Minister, particularly as he is President of the EC, and to the EC Foreign Ministers in their efforts to bring about the early release of the other prisoners, in particular, Brian Keenan. It is important that it should be on the record of the House that we welcome what has happened. What is hopefully going to happen, will happen before too long.
Secondly, would the Leader of the House consider making some time available to allow a statement to be made by the Minister in relation to two worsening disputes, both critical for this country, those in Waterford Glass and the B & I? They are very serious disputes and it is important that the House should be kept informed of what is happening. They are critical and if the worst were to happen, they would be death knells both for the tourism industry and for the Waterford region.
Finally, I would like to ask the Leader of the House to indicate — if not today perhaps he would come back to us — whether any legislation is proposed in relation to holding a referendum in relation to the abolition of ground rents.
Yesterday afternoon on the Order of Business when I said that I did not think any Member of that side of the House was taking the House seriously, there were howls of protests from the front bench. I did not have to wait very long for my point to be proved. It is an extraordinary event in this House when an amendment of such importance is being put that there is not a single member of the Government side of the House here.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Yesterday's events are not a matter for the Order of Business.
It was a matter for the Order of Business yesterday.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It is not in order today.
I would hate you to be in conflict with the rulings of the Cathaoirleach yesterday but on top of that, and this is a matter for the Order of Business, it seems to me that the Minister was out of order yesterday because he addressed the question after it had been put. The Order of Business in this House is a shambles. I do not blame the Leader of the House for that particularly, it is the Government Whips who are at fault. It is my understanding that there is not one Government Whip or two Government Whips but there are three Government Whips and they cannot produce a single person in this House to take an important amendment, to speak on it, even to sit here.
I do not think we can take any more preaching or any more howls of protest from the Government side of this House when they do not bother to send one person in for an important Bill. What I would ask the Whips, not the Leader, is that maybe they would be good enough to provide us with people in this House when matters are being debated. That is all I am asking. It is reasonable to expect that maybe one out of 35 of them might be here. On top of that it seems extraordinary that there were ten of them missing, that they were defeated in a vote. Not only were they missing but they were missing without permission.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I have to remind the Senator that he is talking about yesterday's business. I am asking him to stick to the Order of Business, please.
I am talking about yesterday's amendment. I want an assurance from the Leader of the House that his Whips will provide people in this House when the business is being discussed.
I second Senator Norris's amendment. It is a logical development and extension of the view of this House as expressed yesterday afternoon. I would have thought the Leader of the House would have been able to give us some more views on Government business since I understand he had a long discussion with the Taoiseach this morning and that he might let us know a little bit more about the mind of the Government. Perhaps the part of the mind of the Government he knows about he does not want to tell us about.
I want to support my colleague, Senator Ross. I am almost ten years in this House. It has been my experience that in the period of most Governments Members on that side of the House took an active part in the legislative process, some more or less vigorously, but they participated, they had their views to express. There seems to be an increasing unwillingness on the Government side to have anything to say about anything anytime except in private in their own little rooms. It is a form of democratic centralism that is not confined exclusively to the ranks of a particular party on the left and perhaps Fianna Fáil should get rid of their own version of democratic centralism and begin to debate in public like the rest of us.
May I support the request that Senator Cosgrave has made that we should take some iniatives to try to get some resolution of the awful plight of the hostages in Beirut and in particular that we should be vigorous in trying to resolve the situation for our fellow Irishman, Brian Keenan. Let me, too, express my dismay at the apparent proposal that Mr. Nelson Mandela will not be addressing the Seanad either as a separate House or as part of an address to the Joint Houses of the Oireachtas.
I fully support the alarm which has been expressed by Senator Ross and by Senator Ryan in relation to the Government's attitude and treatment of this House culminating in the farcical performance yesterday. Are the Government serious and are the Government for real about this whole issue?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I appeal to the Senator not to refer to what happened yesterday.
I want to refer to two matters very briefly. Yesterday I referred to the serious situation that is developing within our prison service and I asked for consideration of a two hour debate next week. The Leader of the House did not see fit to respond to be on that issue. Prior to Easter I referred twice to what is now item No. 86 on the agenda regarding the implications of the Supreme Court's decision on Shelley v. District Justice Mahon which is a very serious matter. The Leader of the House twice undertook to bring information back from the Minister for Justice but he has failed to do so.
Despite what my colleagues said regarding yesterday, I welcome the decision yesterday because the Larceny Bill is flawed in several areas and I pointed out during the course of the debate, and I hope the Government will now use the opportunity to make the many corrections that are required in that.
A few questions were asked, I am not prepared to take the amendment to the Order of Business. The Order of Business stands. On the local elections 1990, that order will be taken next week. On the question of Nelson Mandela and his address I will be talking to the Taoiseach this morning. On the question of motion No. 30 raised by Senator Norris, we will be coming back on that particular issue in due course when I get an indication as to when it can be taken.
Of course we support the pleas that Senator Cosgrave has made on behalf of the hostages who are still kept whether it be in prison in Lebanon or elsewhere and I am glad hear of his support for the Minister for Foreign Affairs who has been doing everything in his power in every forum be it at United Nations level, at EC level, in direct talks with the President of Syria, in direct talks with the representatives of Iran, in direct talks with anybody who might have any influence in the release of these prisoners. Thankfully, two prisoners have been released in the recent past and it was good to hear that Brian Keenan was spoken to by one of the released hostages on the Saturday before he was released. That is good news for everybody. We will pass on the support being offered to the Minster in his efforts. Hopefully, there will be an early resolution of this problem because it does not help anybody's cause to hold people in captivity.
As far as the disputes in Waterford Glass and elsewhere are concerned, I support the sentiments expressed and I will take the matter to the Minister. On the question of a referendum on ground rents, I will talk to the Minister involved. Senators Neville, Ross, Ryan and Upton raised matters which are not relevant to the Order of Business today. Senator Neville asked in connection with——
On a point of order, do you, Sir, or does Senator Lanigan decide what is relevant on the Order of Business?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Leader of the House without interruption please.
Senator Neville asked what is happening in the prisons. Fine Gael have a motion down and I reiterate what I said yesterday, that if Fine Gael feel that is a matter of prime urgency they can raise it as their motion on the business next week. As regards the case of Shelley v. Mahon I will find out from the Minister for Justice what is happening in that case.
I did not have a response on the Education Bill.
I did not get an opportunity to talk to the Minister on that.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Norris moved an amendment to the Order of Business, "That item No. 12, motion No. 30, be taken before item No. 1." Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes, it is.
Question put: "That item No. 12, motion No. 30, be taken before item No. 1."
The Seanad Divided: Tá, 6; Níl, 21.
Tá
- Harte, John.
- Norris, David.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Upton, Pat.
Níl
- Bennett, Olga.
- Bohan, Eddie.
- Byrne, Sean.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Foley, Denis.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Michael.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Conroy, Richard.
- Farrell, Willie.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- Ryan, Eoin David.
- Wright, G. V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Norris and Ryan. Níl, Senators McGowan and Wright.
Question declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.