Seirbhís Teilifíse Ghaeltachta: Tairiscint (Atógáil).

Thairg an Seanadóir Ó Foighil an tairiscint seo a leanas Dé Céadaoin, 16 Bealtaine 1990:

Go n-iarrann Seanad Éireann ar an Aire Cumarsáide agus ar an Taoiseach mar Aire na Gaeltachta go gcuirfí Seirbhís Teilifíse Ghaeilge/Ghaeltachta ar bun roimh dheireadh na bliana seo le freastal ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus ar mhuinitir na hÉireann; iarrtar ar an Taoiseach a chinntiú go gcuirfí i gcrích na moltaí atá sa Tuarascáil Teilifíse a chuir Údarás na Gaeltachta ar fáil go speisialta dó féin mar Thaoiseach; iarrtar freisin ar an Taoiseach gníomhú ar na gealltanais a thug sé féin roimh Olltoghchán na bliana seo caite ar Raidio na Gaeltachta agus na gealltanais a thug sé arís tar éis an Olltoghcháin agus é ag caint ar "This Week" ar RTÉ.

Atógadh an díospóireacht ar an leasú seo a leanas:

Chun na focail go léir tar éis "Go" a scriosadh agus an méid seo a leanas a chur ina n-áit:

"bhfáiltíonn Seanad Éireann roimh an staidéar cúramach atá á dhéanamh ag na hAirí Cumarsáide agus Gaeltachta maidir le ceist na teilifíse trí Ghaeilge agus go ndearbhaíonn sé lán-mhuinín as an gcur chuige atá á ghlacadh acu faoin ábhar seo."

—(Éamon Ó Cuív.)

Mr. B. Ryan

I was saying last week that the Irish language is on the point of death. On that I would like to quote some statistics from a book called The Death of the Irish Language — A Qualified Obituary, by R. Hindley of the University of Bradford, published this year, in which he used figures from the census of population, together with the Minister's own Department's figures on the deontaisí. He concluded that the number of habitual Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht areas were less than 10,000 and that 10,000 were distributed as follows: in Donegal, 1,944 habitual Irish speakers; in the Connemara Gaeltacht, 5,691; in the Kerry Gaeltacht, 1,689.

This is perhaps the most comprehensive survey carried out on the state of the Irish language. We have the astonishing, frightening and utterly depressing figure of fewer than 10,000 habitual Irish speakers. Let us not attack the man. I would like to hear the basis for his figures challenged if they are incorrect. He did it on the basis of the official statistics put together by two different independent organs of the Irish State, one the census of population and the other the Department of the Gaeltacht grants that were available. It is a frightening and depressing spectacle. It is worth asking why it is that Údarás na Gaeltachta, the Department of the Gaeltacht and so on have failed in such a spectacular fashion to arrest the decline of the Gaeltacht.

It is possible to argue that spectacular television campaigns from time to time funded by the national lottery do a lot to gloss over the problem but they do not solve it. Only a concerted programme involving the people of the Gaeltacht can arrest this almost decline unto death of the Gaeltachtaí. For that Teilifís na Gaeltachta is an absolutely unequivocal necessity. It is not longer a question of argument. It is easier to bring up children in the French language in this country than it is to bring up children through Irish, because there is a French language television service available via satellite. It is easier to bring up children speaking Spanish, Italian, German or, indeed, Welsh, because in large parts of the country children can be offered the availability of comprehensive television services in those languages. The one language in which we cannot offer our children a decent television service is our own. That is an outrageous and disgraceful position.

One of the problems is the incessant delay. RTÉ have provided an outline of a cheap transmission service. Udarás have shown there are people in the Gaeltachtaí ready, willing and able to provide the programmes. The problem is the political will at Government level, and perhaps at Government advisory level, because all the political parties are officially in favour. One of the unfortunate facts that the records show is that the Minister of State, who is present, has been less than enthusiastic about the idea of some of the studies that have been done. In particular, he has from time to time been less than enthusiastic about the feasibility study of Údarás na Gaeltachta when answering questions in the Dáil. On 7 February in the Dáil he gave the impression that the Údarás report was just one of many being examined. He cast some doubts on that. He suggested that it was in some way equivalent to the interdepartmental working party on television broadcasting in Irish.

Let us have a look at what is in those two reports. Both reports recommended two hours of Irish language programming per night. The 1987 report recommended that the two hours be broadcast on RTE's existing channel. Údarás recommended that a separate channel be established so as not to alienate English speakers by eliminating some of their chosen programmes in English and in the process perhaps do more harm than good, and also so as not to inhibit possible extension of Irish language broadcasting by having to continuously to cut back at the English-speaking community's choice of programmes.

The total capital cost of setting up a separate transmission frequency, building three main studios and linking them into the RTE network of regional studios, would be £5.1 million according to the Údarás report. According to the 1987 report the capital cost of building and equipping extra studios and facilities in RTE so as to be able to make and broadcast two hours per night in Irish would be £8.45 million. To do this by RTE would cost £3 million more than to do it as a separate channel in terms of capital investment in studios etc. According to Údarás, the total running cost of Teilifís na Gaeltachta would be £9.6 million. Many think that that is too high a figure but that is the figure Údarás have worked out. It would still be cheaper to run that service in the way that Údarás provided even with what many people believe to be an inflated Údarás figure, than to do it the way that RTE have suggested via two hours per night on Network 2. The estimated cost of two hours per night Irish language broadcasting via RTE is over £10 million and that does not include the lost revenue from advertising which could be as high as £5 million.

There is the ludicrous position of a service being proposed which is not the one the people in the Gaeltacht want, and which is going to cost more than the one the people in the Gaeltacht want. In whose interest is that proposal? I do not know if it is in the interest of the Irish language community or Údarás na Gaeltachta.

A Senator

Tá daoine éagsúla eile seachas muintir na Gaeltachta.

Mr. B. Ryan

Is féidir an tseirbhís a chur ar fáil. An Irish language service based in the Gaeltachtaí could be run for less money than a service based on RTE's existing transmission network. For instance, there would be the enormous problem of travelling to and from Dublin to produce programmes, many of which would emanate from the Gaeltachtaí but which would be broadcast from studios in Dublin.

Similarly in the Dáil on 7 February and 14 March, the Minister gave the impression that Telefís na Gaeltachta would only be available to 80 per cent of the Gaeltachtaí and 50 per cent of the rest of the households and that he would not be happy with that. That is a gross misrepresentation of the Údarás report. All that Údarás was asking was what would be available in the first phase of a planned development. It is a gross misrepresentation of the report to say that is the limit. There is no reason in the wide world why this service should not be available to all Gaeltacht households. RTE estimate that the system they are recommending, a system of rebroadcast links, would make the signal available initially to at least 80 per cent of Gaeltacht households. The system must be set up first, because of the sort of system that is involved, before one could be sure of the precise figures but it would be at least 80 per cent and that could be extended in Phase 2.

We are also leaving out, and so far the Minister has left out, the future developments. Phase 2, as referred to in these reports, which will provide nationwide coverage on MMDS and on the other 45 or so cable systems outside Dublin, Cork and Limerick. Unfortunately, what we are getting from the Minister, who is supposed to be defending the Gaeltacht, are selective reporting and selective commentary on the reports and particularly on the technical side of the reports. The fundamental question then remains as to what is going to happen?

Níl aon bhac theicniúil ann maidir le soláthar sheirbhís teilifíse sna Gaeltachtaí. Níl aon bhac airgid ann; is amhlaidh go mbeadh sé níos saoire ó thaobh airgid de, de réir na bhfigiúirí oifigiúla atá sna tuarascálacha atá faoi bhráid an Rialtais i dtaobh an tseirbhís a bheith lonnaithe sna Gaeltachtaí. Bheadh sé níos oiriúnaí freisin ó thaobh meath na nGaeltachtaí de. Maidir le ceist cheannais, b'fhearr an tseirbhís a bheith lonnaithe sa Ghaeltacht, leis. Agus na cúiseanna seo úilig againn, cén fáth nach bhfuil sé á dhéanamh? Ní foláir ná go bhfuil bac polaitiúil de shaghas éigin taobh thiar de.

Tá mé braon den tseafóid a bhíonn ar siúl ag an Aire seo, ach go háirithe, faoi sheirbhís teilifíse Ghaeltachta. Táim lánchinnte de rud amháin, áfach; dá mbeadh deascéal anseo nocht faoi sheirbhís teilifíse Ghaeltachta ní hé an tAire Stáit a bheadh anseo á fhógairt ach an Taoiseach atá freisin ina Aire Gaeltachta. Os rud é nach bhfuil an Taoiseach ann is léir nach bhfuil aon deascéal le fógairt.

Mr. Mooney

Is mian liom cúpla focal a rá mar gheall ar an rún seo. Tá brón orm nach bhfuil a lán Gaeilge agamsa. I hope the House will forgive me if I make the points I want to make, as briefly as possible, in the second language of the country and with respect to my colleague, Senator Ó Foighil, who framed the motion in the first language.

I am always very amused when I hear Senator Ryan and his colleagues making contributions in this House. I give the Senator first prize for over-use of adjectives, such as "outrageously awful", "appallingly bad", "disgracefully this and disgracefully that". The Senator certainly gives food for thought in his flowery use of the English language and, indeed, in what I can understand of the Irish language as well.

However, I found it a little disingenuous and perhaps even more unfair that the Senator should direct criticism at the Minister of State at the Department of the Gaeltacht who, unlike himself, lives in a Gaeltacht area and is a native Irish speaker and whose credentials in this area certainly should not be questioned, least of all by a University Senator who takes it upon himself to come up with issues and whose response to the issue today——

Mr. B. Ryan

On a point of order——

Acting Chairman (Mr. Fitzgerald)

No interruptions, please.

Mr. Mooney

——is something like the flavour of the month. Is it Teilifís Ghaeltachta that is now in flavour of the month in Cork University? I am delighted if it is. I do not want to give the impression that I am running to the defence of a defenceless Minister because I am sure the Minister will be more than capable of responding to some of the outrageous points that the Senator brought up in the course of his contribution. Suffice to say that there is general agreement within Government, and I would say in the country, that there should be a recognition of the existence of the Irish language as a living language and that this acknowledgement should and would be best expressed through the provision of an Irish language service on one of the most up-to-date mediums that people now associate with television as distinct from radio.

This gives me an opportunity to compliment the Radio na Gaeltacht service on bringing a cohesiveness to the Gaeltacht that was lacking. It shows that communications can bring cohesiveness to disparate communities. The Gaeltacht is becoming an increasingly disparate geographical entity. From that point of view, it should be put on the record that there is no opposition in principle to the provision of a suitable or adequate Irish language service. Many of the points raised by my esteemed colleague, Senator Ryan, and others who have contributed to this debate, show the complexities involved in providing a service that would be acceptable to the widest number of people. There must be borne in mind the various aspects of providing such a service, the technical aspect, the commercial aspect, whether it is to be a commercially-oriented channel that is to provide the service, all of which require careful and orderly deliberation by Government. I believe that this what the Government, the Minister of State and the Department of the Gaeltacht are about: careful, orderly deliberation of what is a complex problem. There are no easy solutions. The references that were made to Údarás na Gaeltachta sum this up.

Again, Senator Ryan, as in a lot of cases, is very selective in his use of the Údarás na Gaeltachta report and he glosses over an important part of it, namely, the cost factor. Television is costly. One has to look no further than the delay in setting up the third independent commercially-run channel in this country, TV3. They are still waiting for the "off", one of the main reasons being money. They want to be sure of the market and that the technology is in place that will enable them to maximise their signal nationwide. That is only fair and proper. However, I concede that people will argue — and I would have sympathy with the argument — that the Irish language is separate, is sacred, is something that if we profess to be Irish, we should have a commitment to, and commercial considerations should not arise where the future of the language is concerned. I would have sympathy for that point of view.

To suggest, as Senator Ryan and others have suggested, that the only viable option under actual consideration is that two hours be set aside in Network 2 for Irish language programmes is a gross misrepresentation of reality. It is but an option. It is one of several options being discussed and deliberated on by Government and, indeed, by all of those who have an interest in setting up an Irish television language service.

I do not disagree with Senator Ryan's premise that two hours of programmes in Irish on Network 2, presumably in prime time, would disrupt and discomfit those who have no interest in the language and would perhaps do more harm than good. I readily concede that that option is not one that should immediately be accepted as being the only one. Of course, I fully accept it but I want to emphasis the point that it is but one of several options, and it may not even be a runner at the end of the day.

Pól Ó Foighil

Ta súil agam.

Mr. Mooney

Time will tell. As has been pointed out, the Údarás report stated that it would cost £9 million to set up and approximately £10 million a year to run. It may surprise critics of my contribution today to realise I would be somewhat dubious about those figures. The pace of advancement in technology, especially in television technology, is such that it is becoming more and more accessible to programme markers and television stations around the world. If one can parallel the development of sound technology, it is not all that long ago that having a cassette recorder in one's house was a unique phenomenon. Today it is commonplace. Now video cameras are in many households around the country. I will not go so far as to say they are commonplace because they are a very expensive piece of technology, but the point I am making is that it is accessible technology to the masses. Therefore, the cost of running television programmes should be lower than it was some years ago and I would cast doubt on the figures Údarás na Gaeltachta have come up with.

I also believe that the Government have, to some degree, cast doubt on the figures put forward by Údarás na Gaeltachta because they submitted this report to the Department of Communications, to the Department of the Gaeltacht and to RTE for evaluation. It is my understanding that this report has come back and is on the Minister's desk. Perhaps this debate might give the House an opportunity to hear from the Minister the conclusions of that report or some indication of the thinking of the Government in relation to the cost factor and to RTE's evaluation of the Údarás na Gaeltachta report and indeed as to the view of the Department of Communications who, of course, are vitally involved in this also.

There are complex issues, as I said earlier and one of them must be the technical issues. Most of the Gaeltacht areas are in pretty rough terrain, and I do not mean that in any disrespect. There are mountains in County Leitrim as big as the Twelve Pins and the Bluestacks. It is a reality that in Donegal, Galway, Mayo, Kerry and West Cork there is difficult terrain from a technological point of view. I know the West Cork-South Kerry area very well; my wife comes from the Beara Penninsula. It is a source of great frustration to many people in that part of the world that they cannot always pick up even RTE radio signals because of the difficult terrain.

Therefore, to establish an adequate transmitter service that would bring a separate language service, first, to the people of the Gaeltacht and, secondly, to the wider area, to Irish language speakers throughout the country as a whole, is a complex technical problem and one that has to be addressed not only on the technical side but on the cost side also. We have to consider the kind of programmes such a service would provide. I know the argument to date has been on forcing or encouraging the Government to agree that there should be a service at all.

I have already, I think, established that the Government are not in principle against the idea of an Irish language service. I believe that is the case and perhaps it will be explored and expanded on by the Minister in his reply. Having said that, we have to look at the kind of service, and that too must be a serious factor, before coming to a decision in relation to the motion before us.

Do we have programmes of a bilingual nature such as the very successful "Trom agus Eadrom"? Do we have programmes which are produced within the Gaeltacht areas that are of the Gaeltacht that portray this unique culture in our society, that will give people who are non-Irish speakers or who have no real interest in or knowledge of the language on opportunity to see life in the Gaeltacht area, and, most importantly, give to the Gaeltacht people what I talked about earlier, cohesiveness, an identity to cherish? Or, — and here perhaps the Minister might be prepared to take it on board — should there be dubbing of existing programmes? It is a well-known fact that English language television programmes are among the most popular in the world. Those of you who have travelled on continental Europe will know that "Dallas" is as popular in France and Germany as it is in America or in this country, yet it is not in Americanese, it is dubbed in the language of the county concerned, be it France or Germany. It is a very cheap form of programming. It requires actors and actresses reading a script before a film screen which is taped and then transmitted.

Would it be worth contemplating dubbing in the Irish language programmes that are popular or creating programmes of that genre with an Irish setting using the Irish language? There is an immediacy about such programmes and people will watch them. The soap operas I am talking about, even in English, use very basic English. They are not very complicated programmes to follow. Take the Kylie Minogue phenomenon; "Neighbours" which has been proven by surveys to be most popular among pre-teens and nearly pre-school children. It is a point and there might be some merit in exploring the argument for dubbing existing programmes.

It is important also to note that when we talk about an Irish language service we are not talking exclusively about the Gaeltacht. I appreciate that Senator Ó Foighil among others, has always made the point he does not wish Irish to be compartmentalised or categorised as being something separate within Ireland. The Gaeltacht is as much part of Irish society as O'Connell Street. It is important in the deliberations of Government, when contemplating the type of service that should be put in place, to keep in mind who it is being aimed at in the programmes. It is important to think not only of the Gaeltacht but of Irish speakers nationwide and the rest of the population — I put myself in that category — who have a smattering of the language and would like to have more.

Is it under consideration to put an Irish language service on the MMDS network? This has been touched on by a number of speakers. As the House is aware, TV3 will be transmitted on the MMDS network nationwide and, in fact, it is a legislative obligation. It is on a must-have, must-carry basis. The franchise holders when installing multichannels must carry TV3. Is there an argument for having an Irish language service which would be independently run or for which the facilities could be provided by RTE for independent film makers, as happens with Channel 4 in England where there would be private money involved but the important thing would be that it must be carried on the MMDS service. Could RTE, by way of levy, be able to make a financial contribution to that? Could the European dimension be brought into play here because of the cultural aspect? These, and many other questions, need to be addressed.

I do not wish to harp too much on Senator Ryan's contribution. Generally speaking, when talking about an Irish language service there seems to be a certain glib, simplistic approach as if it is something that can be manufactured out of the air. All I will say, and I say it to Senator Ryan, is that there was a very successful movie a few years ago which was called "ET". He was an extra-terrestrial. He lived up there.

Mr. Neville

Ba mhaith liom mo chuid ama a roinnt leis an Seanadóir Hederman, le do thoil. An bhfuil sé sin ceart go leor?

Acting Chairman

Maith go leor.

Mr. Neville

Tá mé sásta tacaíocht a thabhairt don rún agus iarraim ar an Rialtas sa bheartas tábhachtach seo cabhair a thabhairt dár dteanga dhúchais. Is páirt thábhachtach dár gcultúr í an Ghaeilge agus tá sé riachtanach go dtabharfadh Oireachtas Éireann cabhair ar gach bealach lena chinntiú go mbeidh tacaíocht láidir ann dár neamhspleáchas agus dár náisiúnachas. Iarraim sa rún seo an seans céanna a thabhairt dár dteanga fanacht beo, dála an Bhéarla. Is meán cumarsáide an-chumhachtach í an teilifís, a bhfuil tionchar mór aici ar dhaoine óga. Tá iarracht den saol sa 21ú aois ann, saol nach bhfuil réadúil. Cuireann easpa theilifís Gaeilge i gceantair Ghaeltachta as go mór do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus cuireann sé seo brú ar an teanga.

Ní féidir leis an teanga coinneáil beo mura mbíonn sí le feiceáil ar na meáin chumarsáide is nua-aimseartha. Mura ndéantar é seo beidh tuairim láidir ann go bhfuil an teanga as dáta agus nach mbeadh fiúntas ar bith inti ach mar theanga chultúrtha agus stairiúil. Ceapaim nach mbeidh an teanga beo amach anseo mura mbíonn sí le cloisteáil ar an teilifís, go mion agus go minic. Tá an rún seo ag iarraidh ar an Rialtas stop a chur le meath na Gaeilge, go mórmhór i measc na hóige. Gan teilifís na Gaeltachta beidh ár dteanga uasal ársa ar an dé deiridh agus beidh sí chomh marbh le hart taobh istigh de ghlún eile. Ní féidir linn tubaist mar seo a cheadú.

I cannot overestimate the importance of the Irish language to our national identity. We are very proud of our independence. It is an independence that was hard fought and the one thing that reflects our independence, both our national independence and our independence as a culture in a united Europe, is surely our language. This is why I think this motion is important.

As a person from the Gaeltacht I would like to criticise our educational system which to date has failed our Irish language. The compulsory element in the educational system when I was learning Irish at school killed it for many of us. I have a great love for the Irish language and travel to the Gaeltacht regularly. I have what I believe is a good conversational knowledge of Irish but I almost dry up when I have to speak formal Irish because of the way I was forced to learn it. The emphasis which was placed on grammar has caused this. When one broke loose from that, mixed with the Gaeltacht people and spoke their language one saw a different aspect and I am pleased I had that experience.

There is no doubt that television is a great means of communication. Our young people look at it constantly and it is a great influence. If we are determined to keep our language alive, we must be in a position to give programmes to our young people, programmes to which they can relate, programmes in which our young people can see the worth of the language; a language that is live, a language that will last. This is not unusual. In Wales there is a television station. It is ironic that Margaret Thatcher is prepared to allocate £12 million to keep the Scots Gallic alive through the involvement of television in Scotland. A similar situation arose in Spain as I already said and I will not repeat my remarks.

There are three areas I believe which identifies our cultural uniqueness, which identifies our difference from our European colleagues and indeed from the rest of the world. They are, first, our language, second, our music and third, our sport. Our sport is alive and well and from the heart of hurling country it is well served by the GAA. Our music is flourishing but it was at one stage on the way out. It was similar to the Irish language today but it was saved and brought back to life by that great man, Seán Ó Riada. He went to the same school in Adare as I did, though at a different time. Our language is now in danger of dying because of the speed and influences of communication. I believe that Teilifís na Gaeltachta will do for the Irish language what Ó Riada did for Irish music and I would ask the Government to give the language that opportunity.

Mrs. Hederman

Sílim go bhfuil sé an-tábhachtach go mbeadh stáisiún teilifíse Gaeilge againn. Nuair a bhí mé óg níor fhoghlaim mé oiread is focal amháin Gaeilge, mo bhrón. Cúpla bliain ó shin thosaigh mé ag foghlaim na Gaeilge ach ní raibh móran ama agam chun feabhas a chur ar mo chuid Gaeilge mar is duine an-ghnóthach mé. Ach nuair a tháining sé isteach i mo aigne gur mhaith liom bheith i mo Sheanadóir thosaigh mé ag foghlaim na Gaeilge arís le fonn. Bím ag éisteacht le cláir Ghaeilge ar an raidió chun chleachtadh a fháil, ach críochnaíonn siad ar leath uair tar éis a dó gach tráthnóna. Níl ach cúpla clár as Gaeilge ar an teilifís, an Nuacht, Cúrsaí, Iris, srl. Tá sé anúsáideach bheith ag éisteacht le agus ag féachaint ar chláir as Gaeilge más maith leat feabhas a chur ar do chuid Gaeilge. Mo bhrón, níl ionam ach tosaitheoir fós agus níl Gaeilge ar mo thoil agam fós. Mar sin, caithfidh mé leanúint as Béarla.

Pól Ó Foighil

Maith an bhean.

Mrs. Hederman

I am not quite as depressed as my colleague, who gave very depressing figures for the Irish language and I am sure his figures are correct. It is depressing to hear that there are fewer than 10,000 people using the language at present. This national survey carried out by Micheál McGreal, the survey of the national language, 1988-89, does not seem to paint such a depressing picture.

One of the important points touched on by Senator Neville was that there is less compulsion nowadays in relation to the language. There is a new and changed impetus. I think the language is proving to be more attractive to young people. There is a certain goodwill towards it that simply was not there in the past when there was that very compulsive element. Nowadays we have the sad fact of emigration, of young people going abroad to work. Somehow or other, the further away they are from Ireland the more attractive the country becomes and the more important to them their native tongue and their native culture. I think those young people return to the country they realise how important our native culture is if we are to keep our national identity and we are not to be subsumed into the great mass of Europe. When we consider that our country has three million out of a population of 320 million young people realise how important that identity is and the important role of our culture and language.

I believe many Gaeltacht areas now realise they have something special, something important, and something they do not want to lose and they do not feel the country should lose. There is a new sense of pride. Last year I was down in Dingle. It was my first visit to that Gaeltacht area. I was told there that ten or 15 years ago people in the shops in Dingle were very reluctant to speak Irish if an English-speaking person came in but that is completely changed now. There is something they are proud of and they know it is something important. If there is a tourist element attached to it, so be it. Why should they not take advantage of it? These Gaeltacht areas know they have something unique.

RTE have done and are doing a good job as far as they can. Any of the programmes in the Irish language or Irish cultural programmes have been of a high standard as has been said, our Irish music will perhaps be what will most help to revive our national culture and our language. I do not think the suggestion that we should reduce the amount of programmes in English on RTE and replace them with Irish programmes is the answer. What we do need is a new television channel and it is imperative that it be based in the Gaeltacht.

An bhliain seo caite chuaigh mé go Corca Dhuibhne, go dtí Dún Chaoin, agus chuir mé fúm ansin le clann a raibh mórán páistí ann, clann a raibh an Ghaeilge go líofa acu. I láthair na huaire, ó tharla nach bhfuil ach cúpla clár as Gaeilge ar an teilifís, caithfidh na páistí éisteacht le cláir as Béarla agus níl sé sin sásúil do éinne, do mhuintir na Gaeltachta nó do mhuintir na hÉireann a bhfuil an Ghaeilge acu.

We need a separate Irish television station. We need it to help learners such as myself who are trying to make the first faltering beginnings in the language. We need to encourage people who had good Irish at school and who want to keep that competence. We want, above all, to have it so that children growing up in these Gaeltacht areas do not regard speaking Irish as something strange but that Irish which comes across on television helps them to realise it is part of their daily life. I think we also need it as a separate entity to counterbalance the weight of the Anglo-American culture which we have bombarding us at all times.

Perhaps there is another element to this, that we might look to see to what extent such an Irish television station could become part of a Celtic culture within the European Community. We might look to see to what extent we could co-operate with the Scots, the Welsh and the Bretons, cabhrú le chéile chun an cultúr Ceilteach a chothú.

That is something which would be enormously beneficial to all the Celtic people in the European Community. I would like to lend my voice to those who are pressing for an Irish television station firmly based in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. McKenna

Ba mhaith liom cúpla

focal a rá i dtaobh an leasaithe atá curtha síos:

Go bhfáiltíonn Seanad Éireann roimh an staidéar cúramach atá á dhéanamh ag na hAirí Cumarsáide agus Gaeltachta maidir le ceist na teilifíse trí Ghaeilge, agus go ndearbhaíonn sé lánmhuinín as an gcur chuige atá á ghlacadh acu faoin ábhar seo.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir Ó Foighil agus na Seanadóirí eile as ucht an seans a fháil an t-ábhar seo a phlé, ábhar atá an-tábhachtach ar fad, agus os rud é go bhfuil sé chomh tábhachtach sin, tá mise ag cuidiú leis an leasú.

Caithfidh mé a admháil go bhfuil nithe cearta sa rún atá curtha síos, ach caithfimid gríosadh a thabhairt don mhilliún duine nó mar sin atá in ann an teanga a thuiscint agus a labhairt agus an teanga a leathnú níos faide sa tslí seo. I mo thuairimse, níl an teanga ag fáil bháis, mar a dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Foighil agus na Seanadóirí eile le linn díospóireacht na hoíche anocht agus na seachtaine seo caite. Caithfimid a admháil go bhfuil a lán rudaí á ndéanamh faoi láthair chun an teanga a spreagadh go toilteanach ar fud na tíre. Tá dul chun cinn mór déanta, dar liomsa, go dtí seo agus tá súil agam go mbeidh an scéal níos fearr sna blianta atá romhainn.

Tá thart ar 80,000 duine sna Gaeltachtaí éagsúla faoi láthair agus ní ceart na daoine seo a "ghettoise", mar a déarfá, agus teilifís Ghaeltachta a chur ar bun dóibh siúd amháin. Ní réiteodh sé sin an scéal in aonchor. Bheadh sé i bhfad níos fearr cláir Ghaeilge a chur ar fáil ar an teilfís náisiúnta. Sa tslí sin bheadh seans ag gach duine laistigh agus lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht na cláir a fheiceáil agus foghlaim uathu. Sin an tslí leis an teanga a choimeád beo agus a leathnú ar fud na tíre.

Senator Hederman said she did not think it was right that we should have programmes in Irish on national television. I wonder why? Is it because the people who would be watching national television would not like to have Irish programmes on the national television? I would see it as an opportunity for everybody to learn Irish. We must remember that there are more people interested in speaking Irish and promoting the use of the Irish language than the people who live in the Gaeltacht. The people of the Gaeltacht themselves would be the first to admit that fact. If you provide essentially for a television service just for people who are living in the Gaeltacht and speaking Irish in the Gaeltacht, what do you do with the rest of the community? How do you provide a facility for those people to learn? Surely it should be a two-way process, that you provide a service where everybody would have access to that medium and then encourage the people in the Gaeltacht to mingle with those people learning Irish in the rest of the country. That is the way we should promote the Irish language.

I happen to have had the good fortune to get my second level education in an all-Irish speaking school, St. Flannan's College in Ennis. It is not in a Gaeltacht area, and there are quite a number of other Irish-speaking schools in other parts of the country that are not within the Gaeltacht either. Unfortunately, and to my regret and my shame, when I left St. Flannan's to a very large extent I turned my back on the use of the Irish language, mainly because there was no need for me at that particular time to use the language in any way. So, like many other people, because I got lazy it never occurred to me that it was so important I should keep the language beo. I forgot it. Dhein mé dearmad air, mar a déarfá. It was after quite a considerable number of years I realised the error of my ways and I set about trying to get back to where I was before. I have to admit I am still at that process at the moment, trying to get back to where I was before.

I realise how important language is as a part of our culture and heritage and there are many other people like me in the country. All of them need to be encouraged to brush up on the use of their Irish. I would have to pay tribute to Senator Hederman who is in the process of learning the language. She is an example of the goodwill there is there towards the language and the fact that people, if they get the opportunity, will learn it.

Because of the fact that I got involved in trying to learn Irish again and promote the use of Irish at every opportunity, I am a member of a steering committee that was set up some years ago by the Minister for the Environment. The idea of that committee was to promote the use of Irish on a voluntary basis within the local authority areas and I would stress the word "voluntary". This committee has had a fair deal of success. We work in very close co-operation with Bord na Gaeilge whose administrative staff give us great support and assistance. The procedure we adopted was that we set up a sub-committee on the Irish language in each local authority area and by degrees we are creating an environment where people will be relaxed and happy in the use of Irish and will try to speak what Irish they have. Programmes in Irish on the national network would be of great benefit to the many people who are in the process of learning the language. In that way the language will remain vibrant and alive in the Gaeltacht and will be increasingly used outside.

My own constituency of North Tipperary is a prime example of what can be done in relation to the promotion of the Irish language outside the Gaeltacht. As a follow through of the steering committee that was set up at local level, the North Tipperary VEC decided to get involved in the promotion of the Irish language. They took it on as a project and they called it "Tiobraid Árann ag Labhairt". It has been an outstanding success. There was tremendous goodwill all round for the language and we were amazed at the response we got from all sides. Every stratum of society is involved in that particular project. We have businessmen, clergy, schools, the general public, farmers, housewives, parents, children, teachers. It is absolutely amazing how the project has taken off. All of them without exception, every section of society, are absolutely 100 per cent behind the project.

I am talking here about people who never had the opportunity to learn Irish at any stage. I was one of the fortunate ones, I got the opportunity but I let it slip when I left second level school but I am hoping to correct that as time goes by. There are quite a number of people who never got the opportunity to learn Irish and those people are as committed to the promotion and use and learning of Irish as any of the others. That has to be borne in mind. I do not think that in order to keep the language alive we can just put all the emphasis on the Gaeltacht and say that if we promote the use of Irish within the Gaeltacht itself it will survive. That would be to put in a ghetto a section of the population. We have to broaden our horizons in relation to the use of the language.

In relation to the committee that was set up, we hold an annual conference in the Gaeltacht each year. That conference has been a great success. It is now recognised as one of the best conferences of the year. I do not think this would be the case if local politicians did not have an interest in and goodwill towards promoting the use of the Irish language.

I know time is of the essence at this particular time, but I have just one small word of regret in relation to the University of Limerick. As I understand it, there are just two words of Irish used in all of the University of Limerick and those are "Ollscoil Luimní". De réir deallraimh níl ach an dá fhocal sin á úsáid. Tá mic léinn ag freastal ar an ollscoil sin ó na Gaeltachtaí agus gach áit eile. Ní mórán é a iarraidh ar lucht stiúrtha na hollscoile sin úsáid na Gaeilge a spreagadh ar fud an choláiste. I do not think it is too much to expect that an Irish University should promote the use of the Irish language within one of our universities.

I wish to support this amendment. I know if it goes through, with the support of the Minister for the Gaeltacht and the Aire Stáit ag Roinn na Gaeltachta the Irish language will be promoted.

Mrs. Hederman

May I just explain that I am not against Irish programmes on RTE 1 or 2. I was only saying we should not substitute popular English programmes with Irish programmes. That would not be helpful. I just want to make that explanation.

Aire Stáit ag Roinn na Gaeltachta (Mr. Gallagher)

Is main liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na Seanadóirí a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Tá go leor a dúradh nach féidir liomsa locht ar bith a fháil air. Ar an dtaobh eile de, dúradh roinnt rudaí nach n-aontaím leo ar chor ar bith. Bíodh sin mar atá, táim cinnte gur labhair na daoine a ghlac páirt inti de bharr a suim sa Ghaelige agus a ngrá di agus de bharr spéis a bheith acu sna Gaeltachtaí.

Cé nach mian liom a bheith conspóideach anseo, caithfidh mé tagairt a dhéanamh do rud amháin a dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Foighil an tseachtain seo caite; sé sin, an t-ionsaí fíochmhar a rinne sé ar oifigigh Roinn na Gaeltachta. De réir m'eolais, is traidisiún é le fada an lá i dTithe an Oireachtais nach ndéantar a leithéid d'ionsaí i leith daoine nach bhfuil deis acu iad féin a chosaint sna Tithe seo. Is trua liom go mór nár chloigh an Seanadóir Ó Foighil leis an traidisiún sin. Cúis iontais dom freisin é, nuair a smaoinítear ar an gcúnamh a fuair an Seanadóir ó na daoine céanna sa Roinn sin le linn a bhlianta mar bhainisteoir chomharchumainn sa Ghaeltacht. Seirbhís thar barr atá á chur ar fáil acu i gcónaí ar mhaithe leis an nGaeilge agus leis na Gaeltachtaí.

Cé nach bhfuil deis ag na daoine sin iad féin a chosaint, tá an deis sin agamsa. Dearbhaím go bhfuil foireann den chéad scoth sa Roinn. Muna bhfuil muinín ag an Seanadóir Ó Foighil san Aire, ná san Aire Stáit, ná sa bhfoireann, ach go háirithe, ba mhaith liom a rá anseo tráthnóna, go bhfuil lanmhuinín agamsa sa bhfoireann atá agamsa i Roinn na Gaeltachta. Is eol daoibhse go léir go mbeadh an Ghaeltacht agus pobal na Gaeilge i bhfad níos measa as, mura mbeadh Roinn na Gaeltachta ann. Beidh deis ag an Seanadóir Ó Foighil, tráthnóna, an méid a dúirt sé i leith na fóirne atá agamsa sa Roinn, a tharraingt siar, agus tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sé amhlaidh.

Déanadh tagairt sa díospóireacht anseo do thionchar agus do thábhacht na teilifíse i saol an lae inniú. Glacaim leis an ráiteas seo go hiomlán. Is léir go bhfuil tionchar thar cuimse ag an teilifís ar fhormhór an phobail ar fud an domhain; is amhlaidh an cás sa tír seo, go háirithe ar dhaoine óga agus ar dhéagóirí.

Dúradh freisin go mbeadh tionchar mór ag an teilifís ar athbheochan agus ar chaomhnú na Gaeilge laistigh den Ghaeltacht, agus lasmuigh chomh maith. Aontaím leis an dtuairim sin agus glacaim leis go mbeidh ról lárnach ag an teilifís in aon iarracht a dhéanfar chun an áit is dual di a bhaint amach don Ghaeilge i saol na tíre seo.

Tagraím anois don rún nó don tairiscint go gcuirfí seirbhís teilifíse Ghaeilge/ Ghaeltachta ar bun roimh dheireadh na bliana agus go gcuirfí i gcrích na moltaí a dearnadh i dtuarascáil Roinn na Gaeltachta. Breathnaíonn sé seo furasta go leor, go háirithe nuair atá tú sa bhfreasúra. Nuair a thosnaítear ar impleachtaí na moltaí a scrúdú go mion, agus nuair a chuirtear san áireamh na tuairimí éagsúla a nochtadh anuas tríd na blianta, maraon leis na tuairimí a nochtadh sa díospóireacht seo, is léir go bhfuil an scéal i bhfad níos castaí agus níos deacra ná moltaí tuarascala a chur i bhfeidhm.

B'fhéidir nach aon dochar ag an bpointe seo féachaint siar ar chuid de stair an cháis seo. Foilsíodh tuarascáil i 1987 a bhí réitithe ag grúpa oibre a bhunaigh Airí Gaeltachta agus Cumarsáide na linne i 1986. Léirigh an tuarascáil sin go mbeadh ar a laghad 14 uair a chloig de chláir oiriúnacha in aghaidh na seachtaine ag teastáil chun seribhís shásúil i nGaeilge a chur ar fáil agus measadh go gcosnódh na cláracha sin thart ar £10 milliún sa bhliain. Dúradh go gcosnódh gnáthlíonra tarchuir don tír ar fad thart ar £25 mhilliún ach aithníodh go raibh forbairt teicniúla ag teacht chun cinn, mar shampla, MMDS a d'fhéadfadh crot eile a chur ar an ngné sin den scéal. Is go gairid i ndiaidh fhoilsiúchán na tuarascála seo a chualathas don chéad uair ó dhream atá luaite go minic le linn na díospóireachta seo sa Seanad, sé sin Meitheal Oibre Theilifís na Gaeltachta. Tá sé suimiúil machnamh a dhéanamh ar cheann de na bun-rudaí a dúirt an Mheitheal Oibre i gceist ag an am:

Tá géarghá le seirbhís áitiúil theilifíse, le freastal ar phobal na Gaeltachta go príomha ... Dá mbeadh éileamh ar na cláracha a dhéanfadh Teilifís na Gaeltachta sa chuid eile den tír d'fhéadfaí na cláracha sin a dhíol le RTE le craoladh ar fud na tíre ..."

Anois táthar ag rá nach miste seirbhís a bhunú, i bhfocail an Fheachtais Náisiúnta Teilifíse, a fhreastalóidh ar phobal na Gaeilge agus na Gaeltachta agus nach ceart go mbeadh aon bhaint ag RTE leis an tseirbhís seo. Is mór an t-athrú atá tagtha ar a bhfuil á lorg le cúpla bliain anuas.

Réimse eile a bhfuil tuairimí éagsúla ina leith ná costas na seirbhíse agus cé mhéad uair sa tseachtain a mba ghá chun seirbhís shásúil a chur ar fáil. Tá an tuarascáil a réitigh an grúpa oibre i 1987, agus an tuarascáil a réitigh Údarás na Gaeltachta, ar aon fhocal faoi uaireanta a chloig de chraolachán sa tseachtain — 14 uair a chloig — agus beagnach ar aon fhocal faoin gcostas a bhainfeadh lena sholáthar, £10.25 mhilliún sa bhliain ag an ngrúpa oibre, £9.6 mhilliún sa bhliain ag an Údarás. Shilfeá uaidh seo gur rudaí iad sin, ar aon nós, a bhfuil daoine ar aon fhocal futhú. Ach ní mar a shíltear a bítear.

Ní raibh an dúch tirim ar thuarascáil an Údaráis nuair a tháinig cáipéis chugainn ó Bhord an Údaráis, bord ar a bhfuil an Seanadóir Ó Foighil ina bhall tofa. Dúirt an cháipéis gur shíl an bord go bhféadfaí seirbhís dhóthaineach a sholáthar le hocht uair a chloig d'am craolta in aghaidh na seachtaine a chosnódh £4.62 mhilliún in aghaidh na bliana. Dearbhaíonn an tuarascáil agus táim ar aon tuairim leis gur den riachtanas é go mbeadh ceithre uair a chloig déag d'am craolta á sholathar gach seachtain. Is ábhar iontais dom é go sílfeadh Bord an Údaráis, agus an Seanadóir Pól Ó Foighil ina bhall den bhord seo, gur leor ocht nuaire in aghaidh na seachtaine. An bhfuil na daoine seo i ndáiríre, nó nach bhfuil?

Níor chloígh an Bord, áfach, le ceist na gclár. Mheas siad, freisin, go bhféadfaí an costas caipitil a ísliú £1.55 mhilliún; ísliú de 27.5 faoin gcéad a bheadh i gceist anseo, ó £5.65 mhilliún go £4.1 mhilliún. Luaigh an bord freisin go raibh seans ann go bhféadfaí níos mó airgid ná seo, a ghábháil, trí ísliú a dhéanamh ar chaighdeán chuid den treallaimh a bheadh in úsáid. Is dóigh liom go raibh comhaltaí uilig an bhoird sásta leis an moladh sin. Tá sé ráite, faraor, acu siúd atá ag lorg na seirbhíse gur den riachtanas é go mbeadh treallamh den scoth ar fáil chun cláracha den scoth a dhéanamh, agus anotaím féin go hiomlán leis an dtuairim sin.

Is é atá faoi chaibidil anseo ná rún atá breactha síos ag gach ball d'Fhine Gael sa Seanad. Nuair a bhí an rún céanna á mholadh ag an Seanadóir Ó Foighil, luaigh sé cuid de phríomhmholtaí thuarascáil Údarás na Gaeltachta. Orthu seo bhí am craoladh de cheithre uaire a chloig déag in aghaidh na seachtaine, costas reatha de £9.6 mhilliún sa bhliain, agus is é a dúirt sé ná: "Ní thuigim cén fáth an bhfuil an oiread sin moille agus fadhbanna le sonrú i dtaobh na tuarascála." Dúirt sé freisin: "Tá Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Meitheal Oibre Theilifís na Gaeltachta in ann a chruthú go bhféadfaí ceithre uair a chloig déag in aghaidh na seachtaine a chur ar fáil ar chostas sé mhilliún punt." Ba é £9.6 mhilliún, an chéad meastachán a bhí againn; laghdaíodh go £5.65 mhilliún sa tarna háit é, agus anois tá £6 mhilliún i gceist. An cheist atá aige orainne ná — cén fáth go bhfuil an oiread sin moille i gceist agus an oiread sin fiosrucháin á dhéanamh sa ghnó? Agus daoine ag caitheamh figiúrí éagsúla amach — £9.6 mhilliún, £5.6 mhilliún agus £6 mhilliún! Más amhlaidh an scéal thuas, cén fáth go bhfuil sé á mholadh sa rún atá curtha síos ag comhaltaí agus ag Seanadóirí Fhine Gael "go gcuirfí i gcrích na moltaí atá sa tuarascáil teilifíse a chur Údarás na Gaeltachta ar fáil". Ar na moltaí seo, bhí ceann a dúirt gur costas £9.6 mhilliún a bheadh i gceist. Céard mar gheall ar thuairimí Bhord an Údaráis, a bhfuil an Seanadóir Ó Foighil ina bhall de? Tá an bord seo den tuairim gur leor £4.62 mhilliún chun ocht n-uair a chloig d'am craolta a sholáthar chuile sheachtain. B'fhéidir freisin go bhféadfaí treallamh a cheannach nach mbeadh den chéad scoth. Ní hé sin deireadh an scéil, áfach. Ag tacú leis an tairiscint di, dúirt an Seanadóir Jackman ""Is é mo bharúil go mb'fhéidir é a bhunú ar £5 mhilliún nó faoina bhun sin ..."

Dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Foighil nár thuig sé cén fáth a raibh an oiread sin moille i gceist. Measaim go bhfuil sé léirithe agamsa anseo, tráthnóna, go bhfuil cúiseanna ar leith leis an scrúdú agus an dianchíoradh a bhí le déanamh againne agus ag an Roinn Cumarsáide agus ag RTE sa ghnó seo.

Chuir an Seanadóir Mooney ceist mar gheall ar an Roinn Cumarsáide agus tá freagra agam anseo air. Tá an tuarascáil sin agamsa anois le cúpla lá agus beidh ormsa anois agus ar oifigigh mo Roinnese, scrúdú a dhéanamh ar na moltaí sin; moltaí iad seo a tháinig ón Roinn Cumarsáide a bhí i dteagmháil le RTE, áit a bhfuil na saineolaithe ar fáil. Ina dhiaidh sin, rachaidh mise ag plé na ceiste seo leis an Taoiseach agus le Airí na Gaeltachta agus beidh sé á phlé, ar ndóigh, ag an Rialtas níos déanaí.

Tá a fhios ag gach duine, fiú muna bhfuil siad sásta é a admháil, go bhfuil an Rialtas seo dáirire maidir le ceist na teilifíse. Is eol dúinne cé chomh tábhachtach is atá seirbhís teilifíse. Tá a fhios againn cé chomh tábhachtach is atá seirbhís teilifíse, ní don Ghaeltacht amháin, ach don tír go léir, ní hamháin do 80 faoin gcéad den Ghaeltacht, ná do 50 faoin gcéad den tír ach don tír ina iomlán, idir dheisceart agus thuaisceart. Tá go leor daoine i dtuaisceart na tíre a bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge, atá ag teacht chuig na Gaeltachtaí leis na blianta agus iad faoi bhrú ag an am céanna. Ní raibh sé éasca orthu agus tá an dualgas orainne gach iarracht a dhéanamh chun seirbhís a sholáthar dóibhsean chomh maith.

Nílimid ag deánamh cúlú ar bith sa cheist seo; táimid réadúil ina thaobh. Tá spéis mhór ag an Taoiseach agus an Rialtas sa scéal. Bhí an Comhrialtas i gcumhacht ar feadh ceithre bliana go leith agus ní raibh suim dá laghad ag an gComhrialtas sa Ghaeilge. An mó punt a chuir siad isteach sna bóithre áise sa bhliain 1984-85? Agus an mó i mbliana? Suim agus dairíreacht i leith na Gaeilge atá faoi chaibidil anseo. Tá airgead gann ach i mbliana tá árdú de 27 faoin gcéad le sonrú i Meastacháin Roinn na Gaeltachta. Léiriú é an t-ardú seo ar dháiríreacht agus ar shuim an Rialtais i gceist na Gaeilge.

Ceist mhór í seo agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil sé deacair a rá nár cheart luach a chur ar ár dteanga, ach caithfear an gné seo a thabhairt isteach san áireamh. Tá dualgas orm fiosrú a dhéanamh sa scéal, nuair a thagann ball de Bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta atá ina Sheanadóir, isteach sa Teach seo ag rá go mbeidh Údarás na Gaeltachta ábalta £1 mhilliún a chur ar fáil as an ngnáth soláthar. Táim féin faoi bhrú ag an Údarás céanna i gcónaí agus déanaim mo dhícheall chun breis airgid a chur ar fáil. D'ardaíomar an uasteorainn anuraidh ó £4.5 mhilliún go £9 milliún. An féidir a rá nach bhfuil suim ag an Rialtas seo ná ag an Roinn seo i bpobal na Gaeilge i gcoitinne? Deir daoine, ar chóir a bheith eolach sa ghnó, go mbeidh £1 mhilliún le fáil as an ngnáth soláthar. Tá an dualgas ormsa an cheist a fhiosrú má tá an cineál sin airgid le fáil ón méid atá á thabhairt d'Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Táim i ndáiríre faoin gceist anseo. Tá moltaí faighte agam ón Roinn Cumarsáide; beidh mé á scrúdú agus beidh mé á bplé leis an Taoiseach, fear a bhéas gnóthach anseo agus san Eoraip go dtí deireadh na míosa seo chugainn.

Mr. Costello

Ba mhaith liom labhairt i dtaobh rúin Fhine Gael, is é sin, go gcuirfí i gcrích na moltaí atá sa tuarascáil teilifíse a d'ullmhaigh Údarás na Gaeltachta. Is é atá i gceist ann ná seirbhís teilifíse Ghaeilge a bhunadh le freastal ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta, sa chéad áit, agus ar an tír go léir ina dhiaidh sin. Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil an dualgas orainne gach cabhair a thabhairt chun an Ghaeilge a chaomhnú agus a fhorbairt ar fud na tíre.

We have at present an obligation to ensure that all technological developments are put in place to the maximum degree and in a correct location in relation to the development of the Irish language. Listening to some of the speakers I have heard various criticisms about our method of teaching, the fact that we have failed, since our independence in 1922, to ensure that Irish became a national language that could be spoken on a wide basis throughout the country, as envisaged in our Constitution.

I believe the approach suggested in the report from Údarás na Gaeltachta, that was commissioned incidentally at the behest of the Taoiseach himself, is the correct one, namely, that the emphasis is on a development from a position of strength, from a location of strength and that is the Gaeltacht itself, rather than coming down from RTE. I believe that is the essential issue that is at stake, how the proposals, as envisaged, are going to be introduced. I would be very much concerned, considering the statement and attitude over the past 12 months of the Minister for Communications that that would not be his perception. He is, from his statements, inclined to move towards the break-up of the public service in terms of broadcasting and I feel we have no commitment from the Minister himself in relation to the development of a service from the Gaeltacht.

I believe it would be counterproductive if there was an extension of time given on RTE, that it would, if anything, impair the likelihood of an effective programming in Irish throughout the entire country. If we are going to be effective, we must work from ground where the Irish is strong; and the Irish is strong in the Gaeltacht. If we can have a separate station established in the Gaeltacht, that we ensure it is transmitting there first and foremost. That then goes in a wider circle to other areas and then it goes in a still wider circle to the country at large. That, to my mind, is the critical issue: that we would approach this matter in terms of development from the ground up rather than RTE imposing it.

Pól Ó Foighil

Fáiltím, ar dtús roimh an Aire Stáit ag Roinn na Gaeltachta agus roimh chuile dhuine a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo ó thosaigh sé seachtain ó shin. Níl dabht ann ach gur léiríodh ansuim sa bheocheist seo le linn na tréimhse. Tháinig an-chuid Seanadóirí chun tosaigh agus léirigh siad a suim san ábhar trí Ghaeilge a labhairt, de réir mar a bhí sí acu. Léirigh sé freisin, an rud atá á rá agamsa i gcónaí ón gcéad lá a dtáinig mé isteach sa Teach, is é sin, má tá an toil ann, gheofar bealach chun réiteach a dhéanamh. Mar a dúirt an Leas-Chathaoirleach nuair a labhair sé ar ball, ní duine mé atá ag labhairt ar son na Gaeltachta per se; tá mé ag caint faoin dtír iomlán agus faoi Ghaeilgeoirí uilig na tíre. Ní féidir liom dul ar aghaidh gan freagra éigin a thabhairt don Aire Stáit maidir leis an lascadh a rinne sé iarracht a thabhairt dom faoi go raibh sé ag cur ina luí orm go raibh mé dána le linn dom bheith ag caint an tseachtain seo caite. Ach tá mé ag rá leis, cibé rud a dúirt mé, go dtacaím leis agus go gcreidim ann, agus ní duine mé a iarrann rud gan fáth a bheith leis, agus ní duine mé a théann taobh thiar de chlaí le rud ar bith a dhéanamh. Creidim i mo chroí istigh, tar éis dhá scór bliain a chaitheamh i mo chónaí sa Ghaeltacht, go bhfuil an Ghaeilge beagnach imithe, básaithe, sa Ghaeltacht, agus gur gearr uainn an lá, an chéad ghlún eile, nach mbeidh sí á labhairt sa Ghaeltacht.

Sin an difríocht idir mise agus an Aire Stáit. Creidim é sin, de réir mo thaithí féin, agus is mar gheall air sin a labhair mé ar an chaoi sin, agus sin an chaoi a labhróidh mé arís. Mura mbíonn Teilifís Ghaeltachta ann taobh istigh de bhliain, agus níl mé a rá go gcaithfidh sé bheith ann roimh an 31ú de mhí na Nollag, tá mé cinnte dearfa go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag sleamhnú, ag imeacht uainn agus táimid ag caint anseo faoi chúrsaí airgid. Táimid ag cur costais ar an Ghaeilge ag an bpointe seo i stair na teanga. Níl an costas tábhachtach. Is í an cheist atá ann, an bhfuil an Ghaeltacht chun maireachtáil? An bhfuil sí le fanacht beo? Sin an cheist, agus sin é an fáth an rún seo bheith faoi chaibidil agam anseo.

Ní ceist chostais í. Mura bhfuil an Stát seo, an Rialtas seo, mura bhfuil muidne, muintir ne hÉireann, sásta airgead a chur ar fáil anois leis an iarracht deireanach a dhéanamh, nuair atá an Ghaeltacht ar an dé deiridh, tá thiar orainn, tá deireadh linn. Tá an bás i ndán don Ghaeltacht mar Ghaeltacht, agus tá sé ag saothrú an bháis an lá atá inniu ann.

Nuair a bhí mé ag caint faoi Roinn na Gaeltachta, ní rud pearsanta a bhí i gceist agus ní dhearna mé aon tagairt do dhuine ar bith i Roinn na Gaeltachta. Bhí mé ag caint go corparáideach faoi eagraíocht Stáit atá ag feidhnmiú gan cheann, gan Aire, agus deirtear liom anseo go bhfuil Aire na Gaeltachta ann. Níl aon Aire na Gaeltachta ag an Ghaeltacht; tá sé in ainm is a bheith ann. Bhí ceann ag Roinn na Gaeltachta nuair a bhí an Comhrialtas eile ann a raibh an tAire Stáit ag caitheamh anuas air, agus ná déanaigí dearmad gurbh é an Comhrialtas eile a chuir Roinn na Gaeltachta ar fáil agus a thug Aire na Gaeltachta Uí Dhomhnaill dúinn. Agus sin mar a bhí ó thús. Tháinig Fianna Fáil ansin agus rinne siad díspeagadh ar an Ghaeltacht. Chuaigh siad bealach eile ar fad agus anois tá Aire againn nach Aire é, beag ná mór.

Ní raibh mé go pearsanta, agus ní bheinn go pearsanta, faoi dhuine ar bith, ach tá mé ag rá anois, mura n-éiríonn an Rialtas as an tseafóid atá ar bun acu agus as an drogall atá orthu rud éigin a dhéanamh go práinneach, agus mura gcuireann siad faoi chois na ráflaí atá ag dul thart faoi eireaball a bheith ar RTE 2 agus cúpla uair an chloig Gaeilge á léiriú air más é sin atá beartaithe ag comhairleoirí an Aire, go dteipfidh air. Beidh raic sa Ghaeltacht agus neart le cloisteáil ag Aire na Gaeltachta agus ag Aire Stáit na Gaelachta, más é sin an cinneadh a dhéanfar i ndeireadh báire.

Tá rud amháin an-soiléir ón díospóireacht, go bhfuil chuile dhuine a labhair, fiú amháin lucht Fhianna Fáil anseo, ag rá gur chóir go mbeidh an tseirbhís ann. Tá ceist bheag shimplí agam: cén áit, cén bealach, cén uair a bheidh sé ann? Nuair a chloisim an Ghaeilge á labhairt ar an teilifís agus í lonnaithe sa Ghaeltacht, mar is ceart í a bheith agus í dírithe ar mhuintir na h-Éireann uilig, agus cláir ar nós "Skippy" agus "Lassie" agus "Dempsey's Den" i nGaeilge, déarfaidh mé go bhfuil seans ag an teanga. Tá an t-aos óg ag teacht aníos agus is í teanga na teilifíse atá acu, an teanga Bhéarla.

Níl aon locht agam ar na daoine óga sin, ach tá locht agam ar an Rialtas nach bhfuil in ann, nach bhfuil de mhisneach iontu, deifir a dhéanamh agus an tseirbhís a thabhairt isteach. Ná bímís ag caint faoi £1 mhilliún anseo agus £1 mhilliún ansiúd. Is seirbhís atá ag teastáil. Tá an teanga ar an dé deiridh agus caithfear theacht i gcabhair ar an Ghaeilge, ar an Ghaeltacht anois díreach. Ní an bhliain seo chugainn, ach anois díreach. Tá an lá imithe agus tá sé rómhall anois.

Ní fhéadfainn glacadh leis an leasú atá déanta ag an Rialtas. Tá siad ag iarraidh orainn go mbeadh lánmhuinín againn as Aire na Gaeltachta. Ní fhéadfainnse a rá go bhfuil lánmhuinín agam as Aire na Gaeltachta, mar níl aon Aire na Gaeltachta againn. Nuair a fheicfidh mise istigh anseo é agus é ag caint linn ar theilifís Ghaeltachta, nuair a chloisfidh mé é ag caint faoi sa Dáil, creidfidh mé go mb'fhéidir go bhfuil seans ann go bhfuil dé éigin in Aire na Gaeltachta go fóill. Ach níl sé le cloisteáil, níl sé le feiceáil, níl aon rud ag teacht uaidh agus fad agus a bhaineann sé liomsa, níl aon Aire na Gaeltachta ann.

Dá bhrí sin, ní fhéadfainnse, ar aon bhealach, glacadh leis go bhfuil aon chiall nó aon réasún leis an leasú atá molta. Is bealach atá ag an Rialtas le héalú amach as an rud uilig. Níor thug siad aon chúnamh, níor thug siad aon seasamh don Ghaeltacht, agus níl siad á thabhairt; ach an oiread leis an bPáirtí Daonlathach i nGaillimh nuair a bhí an cruinniú acu cúpla seachtain ó shin; níor thug siad san aird ar bith ar an Ghaeltacht. Ní raibh aon rún faoin Ghaeltacht ar an gclár. Tá an leigheas ag an Rialtas. Tá an tuarascáil ar fáil agus na moltaí acu. Níl le déanamh acu ach dul ar aghaidh agus gníomh a dhéanamh. Ná bíodh eadrainn £1 mhilliún nó £2 mhilliún. Más é an bás nó an bheatha atá i ndán don Ghaeilge anois, b'fhearr go mór le muintir na Gaeltachta go dtógfaí £1 mhilliún punt as ciste Údarás na Gaeltachta, as ciste Roinn na Gaeltachta, agus é a úsáid le Teilefís na Gaeltachta a chur ar bun. Thiocfainn leis sin, agus chabhróinn leis sin. Tá mé cinnte go nglacfadh formhór mhuintir na Gaeltachta leis sin. Níl sé ceart ag an Aire Stáit a rá go bhfuil mise ag iarraidh deireadh a chur le teacht isteach Údarás na Gaeltachta. Níor thuig sé céard a bhí á rá agam. Ba é an pointe a bhí a rianú agam ná go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar an dé deiridh, ach arís deirim má chuirtear teilifís Ghaeltachta ar bun anois tá seans éigin ag an Ghaeilge sa Ghaeltacht.

B'fhéidir go bhfuil todhchaí na Gaeilge ag brath, mar a dúirt an Seanadóir Murphy, ar áiteanna taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Más mar sin is maith le muintir na hÉireann, agus leis an Rialtas, bíodh acu. Bíodh a fhios againn gur mar sin atá sé mar pholasaí acu. Tá neart Gaeilge ag daoine ar nós SBB agus Bibí agus Kathleen Watkins (Faces and Places) agus Pat Kenny. Níl fáth ar bith nach mbeadh siadsan in ann cláir Ghaeilge a chur ar bun in éineacht le muintir na Ghaeltachta. Tá neart daoine sna Gaeltachtaí féin traenáilte ag Údarás na Gaeltachta, atá in ann cúrsaí agus cláir a chur ar fáil.

Níl i gceist ach mhilliún, ach más £6 mhilliún féin é, cén difir, cén dochar. Is é bás nó beatha na teanga atá i gceist, agus nuair atá a leithéid i gceist ní féidir bheith ag argóint faoi £1 milliún anseo nó £1 milliún ansiúd. Tá sé an-éasca ag aon Aire nó aon Taoiseach £1 milliún a chaitheamh anseo is ansiúd go fánach, ach dá gcaithfí é ar son na Gaeilge, ar son na teilifíse, bíonn caint mhór faoi. Dhá scór bliain ó shin chuaigh mé ag múineadh sa Ghaeltacht agus bhí Gaeilge phaiteanta, shaibhir ag gasúir na Gaeltachta. Na scoileanna céanna inniu, tá an Ghaeilge imithe astú, agus tá an Ghaeltacht ag imeacht in aghaidh an lae. Is air sin amháin atá mise ag díriú m'intinn go huile is go hiomlán. Teastaíonn uaim go dtabharfar éisteacht do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus don rud atá ag teastáil uathu, agus ní don rud a cheaptar anseo a chuirfidh leigheas orthu. Má tá Seanadóirí ag cur lánmhuiníne in Aire nach bhfuil ann, is beag an seans atá againne go mbeidh aon Ghaeltacht ann amach anseo nó go mbeidh teacht aníos inti ná seans aici. Thóg sé tríocha bliain ó na tríochaidí sul má bhí Raidió na Gaeltachta ann agus bhí orainn feitheamh ar a leithéid d'fhear maith agus George Colley chun é sin a chur ar bun. Tá an-difríocht, faraor, idir an chás a bhí againn an uair sin agus an cás atá anois ann.

Nuair a labhair an Seanadóir Donie Cassidy, ní raibh ag cur as dó ach nach ndeachaigh An Teachta Garret FitzGerald ag Cluiche Ceannais ariamh. Ní thuigim, mar sin, cén fáth go bhfuil an Rialtas ag iarraidh leasú a dhéanamh ar rún a bhfuil gach duine ag tacú leis. Thug an Seanadóir Mooney oráid bhreá uaidh agus d'admhaigh seisean go bhfuil gá leis an tseirbhís seo a lonnú sa Ghaeltacht. Mar sin, ní tuairimí pearsanta atá ag teastáil anseo ach tuairimí an Rialtais, agus go mbeadh siadsan againn.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Tá nóiméad amhain fágtha, a Sheanadóir.

Pól Ó Foighil

Go raibh maith agat. Ba mhaith liom a rá arís nach féidir linn glacadh leis an leasú mar níl sé i ndáiríre. Cur i gcéill agus cur ó dhoras atá i gceist leis. Tá mé ag iarraidh ar an Rialtas mar sin an rud is cóir a dhéanamh, a thabhairt i gcrích laistigh de bhliain nó beimid ar ais go láidir, ag bualadh ar dhoirse agus á mbriseadh isteach go fisiciúil agus de réir dlí. Ní dhéanfaimid aon ní i gcoinne an dlí. Tá bealach áirithe ann le doirse a oscailt.

Tá mé ag rá leis an Aire agus le chuile Sheanadóir aird a thabhairt do chuile rud atá á rá ag muintir na Gaeltachta, a bheith leo agus le lucht tacaíochta na teilifíse Gaeltachta ní sa Ghaeltacht amháin ach lasmuigh de. Ba cheart seans a thabhairt don bheartas, an t-airgead a chuir ar fáil, agus ag deireadh beimid uilig aontaithe sa ghnó céanna.

Cuireadh an leasú.

Rinne an Seanad vótáil: Tá, 29; Níl, 16.

Tá

Bennett, Olga.Bohan, Eddie.Byrne, Hugh.Byrne, Sean.Cassidy, Donie.Conroy, Richard.Dardis, John.Fallon, Sean.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Tom.Foley, Denis.Honan, Tras.Hussey, Thomas.

Keogh, Helen.Kiely, Dan.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Michael.Lydon, Don.McCarthy, Seán.McGowan, Paddy.McKenna, Tony.Mullooly, Brian.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donovan, Denis A.O'Keeffe, Batt.Ormonde, Donal.Ryan, Eoin David.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Cosgrave, Liam.Costello, Joe.Hederman, Carmencita.Hourigan, Richard V.Howard, Michael.Jackman, Mary.McDonald, Charlie.McMahon, Larry.

Manning, Maurice.Naughten, Liam.Neville, Daniel.Ó Foighil, Pól.O'Reilly, Joe.Raftery, Tom.Ryan, Brendan.Staunton, Myles.

Airitheoirí: Tá, Seanadóirí Wright agus Fitzgerald; Níl, Seanadóirí Howard agus O'Reilly.

Faisnéiseadh go rabhthas tar éis glacadh leis an leasú.

Cuireadh agus aontaíodh an tairiscint mar a leasaíodh.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Wright

Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 23 May 1990