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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 1990

Vol. 125 No. 12

Private Business. - GATT Talks: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Senator Dardis on 20 June 1990:
That Seanad Éireann rejects the negotiating position adopted by the United States of America in the Uruguay round of talks under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), and noting the adverse effect that agreement to the US proposals would have on the Irish economy and on our agriculture, calls on the European Community to defend the Common Agricultural Policy and the family farm.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 2:
To delete all words after "defend" and substitute "the principle objectives of the Common Agricultural Policy in the interest of both producer and consumer in the Community.
—(Senator Raftery.)

When I finished speaking last week I was just moving on to the history of GATT and the attitude to GATT generally. The impression should not be given that the USA or the CAIRNS group control the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. It would be wrong to suggest that the EC under the Common Agricultural Policy has not attempted to reduce surpluses which is something that is commonly put forward, I believe at the GATT rounds of talks. Since the early eighties the EC has implemented substantial reform of the CAP with the introduction, first, of milk quotas followed by price freezes and spending limits, or budgetary stabilisers as they are called, in many of the major areas. The reform measures have had a significant impact on the dairy sector where world prices are now at a relatively high level and where dairy farmers in general both in the EC and the international context have benefited greatly. I am sure every public representative and creamery manager will be well aware of the problems that were created when the EC introduced the milk quotas. Even with the small quota holders, I understand that the quota that will be distributed will amount to about 400 gallons per farmer which is ridiculous but I suppose it is good to get anything. I would make the point that in their attempt to oblige the USA and GATT many problems have been caused particularly to the smaller farmers in this country.

It should also be said that when the USA joined GATT in 1955 that country obtained a waiver which allowed it to impose quantitative restrictions on commodities where public support programmes were in existence in the US which might be rendered ineffective by imports. In other words, the USA will do precisely what they wish when it suits. It should also be stated that when the Common Agricultural Policy was established in the sixties the EC was allowed to protect its market against low priced imports of a range of products such as cereals, beef and dairy products through a variable levy system, but as compensation to other GATT members the EC agreed to limit or bind its import duties at very low or zero levels for other products such as vegetable oils, proteins and cereal substitutes. As our colleague, Senator Dardis mentioned on the last day, cereal prices are at an all-time low. It is interesting to note that between 14 and 18 million tonnes of cereal substitutes are imported into the EC, yet the surplus is more or less the equivalent of that.

Since Ireland's accession to the EC in 1973, agricultural policy in this country has been dominated by the CAP. Irish farmers have not generally been concerned about GATT or its implications and it is only now when the matter is staring us in the face that we are all becoming very interested. As I said here last week when I spoke on the motion, I felt honestly that every person in this country would give total support to opposing the attempt by the USA to dismantle the CAP in this round of GATT talks because if the proposals of GATT are implemented, it will in the first instance eliminate the benefits that accrue annually to this country which are, I understand, in the region of £1.5 billion. That is very substantial and that £1.5 billion comes into the economy. There is this false notion that it goes directly into the farmers' hands; it is absorbed in the economy. Secondly, it would cause some 70,000 farm families to leave the land. This is a figure that has been mentioned by all farm organisations and I have no reason to doubt their knowledge on that particular subject. Thirdly, it would put the security of the world food supply at risk.

It frightens me to think that the Labour Party, who purport to represent the small man, could put down an amendment which is totally supportive of the USA's position and philosophy. That great socialist party who preach left and live right are so blinded in their attempt to attack the agricultural sector that they are putting the livelihoods of 70,000 farm families, mainly small farmers, at risk. They should be asked who will pay the social welfare payments. They are saying "no" in effect to the £1.5 billion, much of which, as I said earlier, is absorbed into the non-farming sector of the community. They are obviously not aware that in the US farm size is ten times greater than in Europe, 20 times greater than the Irish farm size. Are they aware that the US will use price supports when it suits for their own farmers? Therefore, I appeal to the Labour Party to withdraw their amendment and show solidarity. I regard their amendment as treachery. Let the USA paddle their own canoe.

The Common Agricultural Policy has served us well. It has guaranteed food supplies, it has ensured a high quality of food product, it has kept the fabric of rural Ireland intact. If the US and the Labour Party — strange bed-fellows, I might say — had their way, 70,000 more farm families would be competing for social welfare, housing and for services. We have got to fight our own corner and we can only win if rural and urban folk work together.

I fully support the motion.

I was very disappointed by the remarks of Senator Byrne, last week and he seems to have continued on the same diatribe this week. He has missed the point entirely.

We are not in the business of creating an urban-rural divide. The Common Agricultural Policy, as it stands, is in need of a major overhaul and revamping because it is creating the divide between big farmers and small farmers, and that is the gap that we are trying to bridge. There is no good in attacking us for something we are not saying. It is the gap between the small and large farmers we are anxious to reduce and there is no doubt that it is the large farmers who have gained massively from the Common Agricultural Policy as it operates. It is in line with our policy, and indeed with the policies of quite a number of other organisations including the ICMSA, that we look at the area of direct income supplement. Let us not attack something that is not being said.

I have no problems with the Fine Gael amendment, as it stands. It proposes to insert:

The principal objectives of the Common Agricultural Policy in the interest of both producer and consumer in the Community.

That is recognising essentially what we are saying, that we have to look at how things need to be reformed. We are going a step further and specifying areas where we feel that the EC should direct itself. Our amendment reads:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:—

"notes that the Common Agricultural Policy has failed to address the issue of falling farm incomes and rural emigration;

further notes that price support mechanisms have added considerably to the cost of the food to the consumer, which carries a high burden for lowincome groups;

and therefore calls on the Government to oppose price support mechanisms which are a massive subsidy to large, wealthy farmers, and support cheap food policies in line with progressive direct income supports for family farmers in the Uruguay round of talks under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT)."

The origins of GATT are very much like the origins of the EC; they are both for the same purpose in a sense. They came about after the War to try to reduce trade barriers, to create fair and open trade and to ensure that economic depressions would not occur, as they had been occuring before, that countries would not be subjected to famine, that there would be a sufficiency of food and that economies would operate on a more organised basis. They were both well intentioned. The principles of the CAP, the EC and the GATT are very similar. GATT operate in the area of agriculture, the services, textiles and so on. Ireland is an open economy and we are dependent very largely on our exports. We have to take into consideration the situation in other countries in the context of protectionism, which, in fact, in many ways is what the CAP is all about. If we are not successful in these GATT negotiations trade barriers will be erected and we will be in a world depression. It is ironic that both Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats, who have always supported the open market and privatisation, should suddenly look to protectionism and a type of mé féin attitude in relation to the Common Agricultural Policy. It is not in keeping with the mould they are supposed to be breaking.

In the national interest.

So long as they break moulds in the national interest instead of in a destructive fashion I will be happy. Two-thirds of EC spending goes on the Common Agricultural Policy so, quite properly, it has to be spent well. We are talking about in excess of £20 billion being spent on that annually. Obviously the farmer who has a larger unit of operation will have proportionately lower costs. He will have greater technology and machinery and naturally enough will be able to produce in greater quantity. Where State grants have been given in the form of farm credits they have been given to larger farms. Farms of over 50 acres have benefited, not farms that have less than 20 or 30 acres. That is the way the CAP has operated.

The Common Agricultural Policy was set up to enable farmers to become self-sufficient and to provide a better deal for them but it is a lopsided operation in terms of price mechanisms. In October 1989 a resolution was passed unanimously by the ICMSA delegates at their annual general meeting stating that the association took a stance on the desirability or other use of differential prices for farm products as a system of income supplementation. There should be a two-tier price system which would be the only hope of survival for small farmers. They are concerned about the small farmer and that is the concern I want to see expressed in relation to the reform of CAP. It is a pleasure to see the Minister in the House.

The Common Agricultural Policy, despite the best intentions, has not operated to the advantage of the small farmer. Since the mid 1960s half the farmers and agricultural workers have disappeared. They are no longer there. We have lost out 50 per cent of that workforce and only one-sixth of the workforce at present is a rural workforce working on farms. That is a very small proportion.

If the Senator had his way it would be halved.

That is not true. It has been halved since the Common Agricultural Policy was introduced. Senator Byrne has launched into a diatribe against Labour already but if he addressed this issue it would be a lot more productive.

Between 1971 and 1987 there has been a drop in agricultural employment from 75 per cent to 25 per cent. That is an enormous drop and it corresponds with the period of time that Ireland has operated the Common Agricultural Policy. Only 35 per cent of all employment in rural areas now comes from agriculture and that has dropped since 1971. It has been a disaster for small farms and small communities and had led to emigration and so on.

The CAP needs major reform because of the nature of the support mechanisms. They maintain prices at an artificial level and create surpluses. The surplus goes into storage and some of it may be converted, for example, wine is converted into alcohol. A lot of it is destroyed for example milk is poured away. It is either conversion or destruction and this has been happening fairly regularly. Some surplus beef and butter was distributed to old age pensioners and those on social welfare. That is desirable but if does not get away from the fact that we have been creating huge surpluses and mountains of commodities. We have the export refund scheme where subsidies are given to export surplus produce to the USSR and Third World countries. That has a depressing effect on the world economy because it undercuts world prices. Import levies are imposed on imports from non-EC countries.

There is a strong form of protectionism in the way the Common Agricultural Policy works. The emphasis is on quantity rather than quality. Where there is intensive food production a lot of synthetic-nitrate fertilizers are used and there are problems in relation to storage and export subsidies. The end result is that consumers pay more and there are fewer farm workers. The number of farm workers in Ireland has declined by 3,000 per annum on average since we joined the EC. The CAP has not been beneficial right across the board. Anybody who tries to say otherwise is living in cloudcuckoo land.

What if CAP was not there?

I am talking about the reform of the CAP. It has been damaging in many ways to the environment. In the past two decades there has been a doubling of water pollution and general damage to wildlife in the EC as a result of the indiscriminate use of fertilisers and so on. Large farmers are getting richer and small farmers are not benefiting significantly.

The Senator should put music to that.

Twenty-five per cent of the large farmers get 75 per cent of the money. That is a fact. Where does the money go? Administration costs in Brussels, plus Government administration costs, are in the region of five to 10 per cent of the money; export refunds account for 40 per cent; the cost of storage for intervention is 20 per cent and the cost of withdrawing foodstuffs and destroying them is six per cent. So of the money that is forthcoming we are talking about 30 per cent going directly to farmers. In a budget of almost £1 billion we are talking about less than one-third of it going into the hands of the farmer. This is a burden on low income families and the IFA have accepted that a figure of £16 to £18 per week for a family of four is the value of the Common Agricultural Policy to every Irish family of that size. That works out at an average of £800 to £900 per annum.

We have to look at the CAP part of the problem is the high level of support prices paid to those who produce the largest amount of goods. We must look at it in terms of the Single European Act which will demand certain improvements in the context of VAT, MCAs and border taxes. All that will mean a tightening-up on the operation of the Common Agricultural Policy, the intervention system and the quota system. The intervention system is obviously exploited. The quota system is a good one in the context of the super-levies. The only way we can really ensure that there is major benefit here is to put the emphasis on quality rather than on quantity.

We must put the emphasis on quality and on a healthy product and at the same time, make provision for direct income supplements to small farmers so that the amount of money is not reduced but is divided up and distributed among those who require it. The intention behind this amendment is to ensure that the Common Agricultural Policy does not operate in a wasteful fashion. The underlying principles are good but its operation leaves much to be desired. Now is the time for us to address the situation in the interests of the entire farming community.

What is the sequence of speakers?

There are four Senators offering. It is my intention that the Minister will come in at 7.40 p.m. Senator Dardis must conclude the debate. We have 27 minutes remaining and four Senators to speak. Perhaps Senators may wish to divide their time.

On a party basis.

What time will the debate conclude?

Acting Chairman

It will conclude at 8.20 p.m. Senator Byrne will speak next. The discussion will cross the floor then to Senator Doyle. Two other Senators are offering.

I will be brief and will share my time. This is a very important subject. I will not go over what my colleagues have already said. We are at a crossroads as far as agriculture is concerned. I have great confidence in the team we have in Europe headed by our Commissioner, Ray MacSharry. He will fight a hard battle on behalf of our farming community. As has been seen down through the years, when agriculture is not doing well the country does not do well regardless of party changes.

The United States are putting on a lot of pressure, but the Minister for Agriculture and Food and his team will stand up to that. There are ten million farmers in the EC and in the United States there are two million. The Americans tell us that they are not subsidising agriculture. That is not true but I will not go into details. There are ten million people employed in agriculture in Europe and if anything happens there the dole queues will get longer by the day. This is a very serious issue and it will affect many people. At present the bulk of subsidies seems to go to the larger farmer. More attention should be paid to ensuring that they are channelled to the medium and small farmer in the future. The Minister is devoting much attention to that area and I wish him well in his negotiations.

The Common Agricultural Policy served us well over the past 20 years. Agriculture is our most important industry. We produce the best food in the world. Food prices have decreased rather than increased. Most of our medium and small farmers have a very low income and they cannot afford for the CAP to be tampered with in any way. Many small farmers have an income of approximately £2,500. What would happen to them if the Common Agricultural Policy were tampered with? Our team in Europe will stand up to the pressure exerted by the United States Government and other interests and secure that we have not only a good Common Agricultural policy but an improvement on the present system. I now share my time with Senator Kiely.

What time will that leave me?

Acting Chairman

Senator Kiely has 12 minutes.

I do not consider this evening's sequence of speakers to be very equitable. It looks as if I will get about four minutes at the end. That will be the only contribution from Fine Gael. I would like that to be considered because I do not consider that to be equitable. I lodge an objection.

Acting Chairman

All procedure has been adhered to all the way. I now call on Senator Kiely.

We lost 15 minutes in relation to the vote earlier on. Perhaps that could be added to our time to have a proper debate?

Acting Chairman

No time was lost to the debate. It is our intention to go on until 8.20 p.m. — and that includes time lost on the other debate.

This is a very important motion. I congratulate Senator Dardis and his colleagues in the Progressive Democrats for tabling it.

If this is the spirit in which you want to play the game——

Acting Chairman

Senator Kiely, without interruption.

On a point of order, let me explain that Senator Byrne gave some of his time to Senator Kiely. If Senator Byrne wished to speak he could have done so for 15 minutes.

Acting Chairman

You are taking up some of Senator Kiely's time.

You get twice the number of Fianna Fáil people in and you restrict us to the four minutes, but continue.

The Senator can do the same with her party.

I can divide my four minutes.

In fairness to Senator Doyle, I was concerned that everyone should have some time. I knew there was a time limit on the debate. The Senator said it would be all right. We have 15 minutes and we are taking that time. If the Senator had agreed to an equitable sharing of the time earlier we would have agreed to that but we cannot do anything about it now.

GATT is a multilateral treaty subscribed to by 97 Governments which together account for nearly 90 per cent of world trade. The basic aim of this agreement, which entered into force in 1948, is to liberalise world trade thereby contributing to economic growth. GATT functions as the principal international body concerned with negotiating the reduction of trade barriers and other measures which distort competition, and with international trade relations. It is both a code of rules and a forum in which countries can discuss and overcome their trade problems and negotiate to enlarge world trade opportunities. It has many aims and principles including trade without discrimination and protection through tariffs.

We know that the Common Agricultural Policy was implemented to ensure the development of agriculture. However, the US and a group of other countries including Australia, New Zealand, Canada and a number of South American countries referred to as the CAIRNS group have put forward to GATT an extreme proposal that all protection and support for agricultural production and prices should be eliminated over five to ten years. Clearly, the purpose of these proposals is to dismantle the EC Common Agricultural Policy and to gain access to the European food market. I do not know if that would suit. I understand Carla Hills is representing the US at the GATT talks. The US will probably find the EC markets hard to handle because of cultural and language difficulties. However, that is their problem.

Farmers' incomes in the United States are supported directly by deficiency payments or in the case of cereals through price supports as in the case of maize, livestock products and sugar. The United States also actively subsidise exports through the export enhancement programme. Canada supports its milk prices by quotas on production and imports.

A detailed report has been published by the OECD which quantifies the total level of support per farmer in a number of developed countries. The definition of support includes both actual budget transfers such as deficiency payments and theoretical transfers from consumers in the case of supported markets. In the United States there are two million farmers and they get $21 million in support whereas EC farmers are only supported to the tune of $10 million. There are only two million farmers in the United States and there are 18 million farmers in the EC which is something Senator Costello should recognise. It is clear that the support per farmer in the EC is less than half of that in the United States and significantly lower than in Canada and in non-EC countries.

It is important that the Labour Party acknowledge that if the GATT negotiations succeed it will mean less revenue for Ireland and for the Community. It would mean £900 less per person per year. Where would that money come from?

A reallocation of the GATT money.

When the farming community are doing well the country is doing well. I met a farmer lately and he said there would be no building done this year because the price of milk has decreased. That means less employment in spin-off industries. This must be recognised.

That is misquoted.

It is not.

We are talking about a more equitable redistribution.

If you have not got it you cannot distribute it. You must have wealth. If the Fine Gael amendment was a proper amendment they should have included the CAIRNS group. They are against our stand on the CAP also. I commend the Commissioner, Ray MacSharry, who has outlined our main objectives. He stated that the main economic justifications for the whole exercise was to achieve a better balance between supply and demand on agricultural markets, to restore a more realistic relationship between production and the marketplace and to remedy distortions in agricultural trade. He said that the specific nature of agricultural production and the very different structures have to be taken into account with wide differences between Europe and the United States or Australia. For example, in the Community we have 11 million farmers whereas in the United States there are only two million, that the average size of our farms is 13 hectares while in the United States it is 187 hectares. I warn the Commissioner to be careful in his negotiations and ensure that he gets the best deal for Ireland.

On reflection, it would have been a shame to have missed that last contribution. I am delighted to have the opportunity to say a few words. This debate is critical and I commend the Progressive Democrats for putting forward the motion. There are various versions of amendments none of which change very radically the main thrust of what we would like to debate substantially here this evening but regrettably will not be able to.

I have a slightly schizophrenic attitude to all of this. I find it very hard to know what side of the argument is in Ireland's best interest in the long term. If we were to jump 20 years down the road, having gradually implemented, with various protections and support systems in between for those who would be most vulnerable particularly the small family farm, true liberalisation of agricultural production and went for a true market-orientated situation and if sufficient numbers of our farmers came through unscathed, I think we could be net winners. The real problem is that to contemplate anything that has been proposed at the moment by the US and the CAIRNS group and others would mean virtually putting 90 per cent of our farmers out of business as structured today and we cannot tolerate that. You have the long-term ideal option if we could get from A to 20 years ahead versus the transition period and how it might be handled. Under any proposals that are on the table at the moment one cannot contemplate agreement.

Having said that, what is worse for Ireland — no agreement on this GATT round or an agreement that we do not like? It could be Hobson's choice if one considers the outcome. Our negotiators have an extremely difficult job to do. I do not have the monopoly of wisdom or much experience in this area even though I have had ongoing interest in it for many years. I tabled a parliamentary question over a year ago to the Minister, Deputy O'Kennedy, and, in a nutshell, his two-page reply could be concentrated into one line in which he said: "I am prepared to participate in negotiations leading on a mutually advantageous basis to greater freedom of trade." It says everything and it says nothing.

The truth is that none of us can say at this stage where we are going. We cannot say where the balance of advantage lies, in having no agreement to this round and virtually having a trade war with the countries with whom we trade favourably at the moment, or having an agreement that is going to cause major problems. I hope the Minister will be able to develop that aspect for us because we really do need to know the current thinking in the Department of Agriculture and Food, in Brussels and of our Commissioner, Ray MacSharry, on where Ireland's interests lie in this area. Ireland, Denmark and The Netherlands have most to lose if this is not handled properly.

The backdrop of all this discussion on the outcome of the Uruguay GATT round must be the fact that agriculture represents 10 per cent of GNP in this country. But as a Community average it only represents 3.5 per cent to the other 11 nations. We have far more to lose than the bigger nations in this. We joined Europe in 1973 because we are an agricultural country, a net exporting country and because of the advantages to agriculture of CAP and the whole FEOGA support system. Fine Gael canvassed for the Single Market a few short years ago on the basis of the advantages that were still to be gained in that area and the balance of advantage lay in being a full and equal member, not in being a sort of second-tier member of Europe in this.

As we look forward to a barrier-free Europe, there is a great cloud hanging over the 1992 programme in relation to the outcome of this final round of the Uruguay GATT negotiations. Will free trade in agricultural commodities win out over the more subtle European line of seeking to establish a level playing field as the basis for any free trade? I do not know. Will the US, Canada and CAIRNS group view win out over the European view? None of us knows at this stage where we are heading.

The consumer now demands a clean food chain. Any agricultural system deserving our support must be sustainable over time in terms of the environmental impact. We must ask ourselves if the only options to be found are those that are now on the table in terms of the Common Agricultural Policy or on the policy being pursued by the US, the CAIRNS group and others. Have we not looked at other world agricultural systems such as the EFTA system at the moment, low intensity, model family farms which answer most of the Common Agricultural Policy's new requirements regarding extensification, and indeed answer most of the environmental requirements on sustainable agriculture and farming sensitively generally?

There are other issues there. Why must we be pressured into a yes or no situation in accepting the pressures externally on the CAP at the moment from the US and the others? Let us look to internal pressure; let us reform, let us modify, let us improve the CAP. Let us even go slowly down the road towards liberalisation, providing we protect the most vulnerable in our agricultural sector and do it at our pace and not be bullied by outside major nations into doing what they want, mainly for their advantage. Let us be honest.

I see that the balance between the GATT demands and the present CAP policy perhaps tilting towards the best of the EFTA system. We cannot take it all on board. It might be a little simplistic for the developmental farmers and the commercial farmers but there is an awful lot to look at there. There will be a winner and a loser in terms of the production end of the chain as long as the only options on the table at the moment in the current GATT round are the US view and the EC view. Is it possible that in neither of these world agricultures is to be found the ideal answer for us here in Europe? That is an option we have got to look at.

Consumers will benefit either way by free trade but, hopefully, from adopting a sustainable system rather than opting only for short-term gain. There is a lot to be thought of, there is a lot to be balanced. There is a longer term view, there is a medium term view and there is the pressure that is on us between now and December to finalise what is on the table in this current GATT round.

Let us not be bullied. It is up to all of us to concentrate our minds and our attention on this most crucial of matters, the outcome of which for us as a small member of the European Community hangs in the balance. We know why we joined Europe, we know why we are party to the Single Market. We are, as a nation, committed Europeans but that does not prevent us from keeping what is best of our present policy and protecting our own, particularly the small farmers and our consumers, and also from learning what is best from other world agricultures. Let us be sure that all the options that need to be on the table are on it at the moment. I would like to give my remaining time to my colleague, Senator Jackman.

I thank Senator Doyle. In supporting the motion inclusive of the Fine Gael amendment, I would, first, like to refer to the word GATT itself and the connotations it creates in people's minds. Would the Chair tell me how much time I have left?

Acting Chairman

The Senator must finish at 7.42 p.m.

It should be pointed out that the Senator could take her full time but I would like to let Senator McGowan in.

All I could see over the last number of years were glazed eyes when GATT was mentioned. I hoped the two farming organisations would come together and create some marketing ploy whereby GATT would be far more understandable to the ordinary man and woman in the street instead of just talking about GATT which does not mean much to them. It is a bit late for that now but I am worried that with just a couple of months now to November-December when the four years talks will be completed with major implications for us that it is only now we are worrying about it. It is a typical Irish trait, that we tend to panic at the last moment. I strongly suggest that in future far more be done to get rid of words like GATT, with connotations associated with industrial policy and not with agriculture, so that people would be very much aware of the situation.

Any set of arrangements that affect agricultural production and prices has enormous importance, not only to the farming community — it is not just the Labour Party who are concerned with other areas of the Community — but also the processing industry and eventually to the housewife and her food budget which Fine Gael have taken into account in their amendment in regard to the protection of the consumer. We must see the talks not only in the framework of agricultural prices but also from the point of view of rural development or redevelopment.

In the final analysis, the EC agriculture support systems and similar US policy will dictate the future of a substantial section of rural and farming people. On the other hand, we heard the other day where the Commissioner, Mr. Ray MacSharry, designated £300 million for the whole Community for rural development. That is just a mere drop in the ocean. It sounds a lot, but not when you divide it among 12 countries. At the end of the day, the GATT talks and the European attitude towards them will have a far greater influence for good or otherwise on rural development than Commissioner MacSharry's token gesture. We must keep in mind all the time the aspirations of Delors when not so very long ago he stated here his concept of a Europe where he wished — all of us wish and aspire to the same thing — to retain the fabric of rural Ireland. I am afraid it is becoming more an aspiration than something we will be able to achieve eventually.

When we look at the reasons we joined the EC in 1973 we wanted to become part of a club structure and we wanted obviously to have a balance in relation to the US and the CAIRNS group at a later stage. Really, it was first as a safety net system for farmers and secondly to ensure food security in times of scarcity and crisis. We never know when there will be a time of scarcity and crisis. Hopefully, it will not be around the corner, but if it happens it will be outside our control. It can be climatic change, it can be to do with environmental problems, it can be to do with global warming. We do not know and shall not have control over those areas.

Seventeen years after joining the EC what was envisaged in the Treaty of Rome will be thrown to the winds, the whole reason why we joined the EC. Who will be our allies when we are fighting? We will have the Scottish farmers, we will have the farmers in the peripheral areas of certain regions of the EC, but we will be up against a huge population structure, which is far greater than the declining numbers in rural economies and rural communities. We will have to fight that major pressure, that industrial pressure. If the talks are not completed at the end of the year, who shall take over in GATT? Will the agricultural policy be put aside and will what other people might consider more important issues take over? Will we get another six months to negotiate? It worries me. Between now and November-December is a very short time, particularly when we take the summer period into account. That worries me exceedingly.

As regards the various statistics that have been used we have got to put to rest once and for all, the whole notion that nobody is supported in agriculture except ourselves. Other Senators have quoted figures to show our total support for farmers is less than 50 per cent when you look at the matter globally. That that has got to be pushed across to the consumers in this country. There will be a certain disregard by people in this country who will not have any great sympathy for farmers, who will tend to think all farmers have large holdings, who will not accept that 75 per cent of farming income is really below £5,000 and who think there is such a thing as rural poverty. This country will be particularly at risk at a time of very hard bargaining for us in the EC if we want to retain what we have gained.

I am glad of the opportunity to strongly support the motion because the basics are very simple to understand here. This is an agricultural country. We are not developed industrially in relation to other European countries and on the world scene. We have two clubs operating at the moment. Certainly membership of the EC has been very beneficial. In fact, it has been the lifeline for many of our small farmers. I shudder to think, if we were not benefiting from the EC at the moment, where the thousands of small farmers in the west of Ireland would go.

I wonder what Senator Costello's solution would be to solve the problem of the family farm in the west of Ireland or could they all be housed and employed in Dublin? It would be contrary to every principle of development everywhere. The GATT actually have quite a number of strong members who negotiate from a position of strength on behalf of their farmers. Every one of them would have their own area of concern. At the end of the day this country stands to lose if very tight negotiations are not in place.

The Seanad has had an opportunity to recognise the vital importance of the negotiations which are taking place. This House sends to Commissioner MacSharry its strongest support and concern for the outcome of the negotiations between GATT and the EC at the moment. This is of paramount importance to us. Anybody who is in touch with his own country would see it that way.

The amendment to the motion is actually what one would expect from some Conservative representative in the heart of London. It is certainly not what one would expect from somebody who is part of a small country with a population of 3.5 million people, which is largely dependent on agriculture which has yet to find its feet and is still developing. I believe our future depends on how successful we are in maintaining people to survive and to work out an economy for themselves in rural Ireland.

Up to recently, when we had a serious fall in cattle and sheep prices, we actually enjoyed the mechanism in use in the EC. It has sustained small farmers in rural Ireland. I hope that difficulty and that position is recognised by everyone who is negotiating at every level. The people recognise that this matter is of major importance to this country. I am surprised that any section, for whatever political reason, finds it difficult to go along with this motion. It is vital and timely. I am glad to say a few words in support of it.

It is obvious to me from the contributions of Senators to the debate last week and again this evening that Senators have done their homework and have a clear understanding of the operation of the GATT. I do not propose, therefore, to make further comments on this aspect in this debate. It was also evident that Senators, with some exceptions, fully appreciate the importance of the GATT negotiations and the negative effects that acceptance of the US proposals relating to agriculture would have for Ireland and the Community.

As Senators will be aware, virtually all Governments intervene in a variety of ways in the management of their agricultural sectors and in agricultural trade. Such intervention varies from country to country and is generally attributable to a preferential attitude to agriculture and to a recognition of the special features and characteristics of the sector and rural areas. The justification for supporting agriculture is based on grounds of food security, the maintenance of rural populations and the strategic importance and special nature of agricultural production.

In the Community, support for agriculture is, of course, governed by the provisions of the Common Agricultural Policy, the principles of which are enshrined in the Treaty of Rome. Various interlinked and complementary support arrangements for all the major commodities, apart from potatoes, were developed throughout the sixties and seventies. These arrangements aim to increase agricultural productivity, to ensure a fair standard of living for the agricultural community, to stabilise markets, to assure the availability of supplies and to ensure that supplies reach consumers at reasonable prices.

The arrangements developed were very successful in achieving most of these objectives and, in particular, contributed to the growth of production in the Community. Indeed, whereas it had been a net importer, by the eighties the Community became more than self-sufficient in all the major commodities that can be produced in Europe. As production levels exceeded available outlets, it became necessary throughout the eighties for the Community to adapt support arrangements to the new situation.

Thus, over the last five to six years, institutional prices have been frozen and in some cases reduced in nominal terms, less permanent and more restrictive intervention arrangements have been introduced and other support measures have been modified. The latter include measures that we have all become familiar with such as quotas, co-responsibility levies and maximum guaranteed quantities, all designed to limit production. The overall objective has been to make agriculture more responsive to market forces and to progressively adapt supply to demand.

Notwithstanding these restrictions, the CAP continues to underpin the prosperity of Community and Irish farming. This support framework continues to be necessary primarily because Community agriculture is structurally weak and extremely diverse by comparison with out major competitors. In this regard, it is relevant to point out that there are some ten million people in the sector in the Community and the average farm size is about nine hectares. In the US, there are about two million farmers and the average farm size is 184 hectares.

Agriculture, of course, continues to play a major role in Irish economic activity despite the growing contributions of other sectors. In particular, the sector accounts for about 9 per cent of GNP and 25 per cent of our total export values. Employment in the agriculture, food and drinks sector amounts to 19 per cent of total employment. The expansion of the food sector, in particular, is central to the Government's policy for national recovery.

Ireland has received vast amounts of support under both the Community's guarantee and guidance funds for market support and for structural development.

Receipts under the guarantee heading since our entry into the Community amounted to £7,900 million and £600 million has been received under the guidance provision. More than 20 per cent of our agricultural exports go to destinations outside the Community with the support of export refunds.

The present round of GATT multilateral trade negotiations, known as the Uruguay Round, was launched in Punta del Este in Uruguay in September 1986 and is the eighth such round. At that time, the contracting parties agreed that agriculture would be addressed in a comprehensive and fundamental way for the first time in a multilateral trade negotiation. Agriculture is only one of the areas covered in the current round as negotiations also deal with issues such as tariffs, tropical products, natural resource-based products, textiles and clothing, subsidies, safeguards, intellectual property rights and services. However, it is generally agreed that success in the agriculture negotiations is very important to the success of the whole round.

At Punta del Este, contracting parties agreed that the agriculture negotiations should aim to achieve greater liberalisation of trade and bring all measures affecting import access and export competition under strangthened and more operationally effective GATT rules and disciplines. This was to be achieved by: improving market access through, inter alia, reduction of import barriers; increasing discipline on the use of all direct and indirect subsidies including the phased reduction of their negative effects; minimising the adverse effects that animal and plant health can have on trade.

Throughout 1987 and 1988 the negotiations concentrated on elaborating the elements of the negotiating proposals. The general direction and procedures to be followed in the final phases of the negotiations were agreed by the GATT Trade Negotiating Committee meeting in Geneva in April 1989. The committee accepted that agricultural policies should be made more responsive to international market signals and that support and protection should be progressively reduced and provided in a less trade distorting manner. The Trade Negotiating Committee agreed on the principles of short and long-term actions to achieve the objectives laid down at Punta del Este. Particularly important from the EC's point of view, was the acceptance by the committee that credit would be given for measures implemented since the Punta del Este declaration which contributed positively to the reform programme.

In the short term, contracting parties undertook to ensure that for the period up to the end of 1990, current domestic and export support and protection levels would not be exceeded. Participants also stated their intention to reduce support and protection in 1990 either by using an aggregate measurement of support (AMS) or by taking specific policy measures.

As regards the long term, contracting parties undertook to negotiate substantial progressive reductions in support and protection either through commitments on specific policies, aggregate support or a combination of both. The contracting parties also agreed to establish strengthened and more operationally effective GATT rules and disciplines encompassing import access, subsidies, export competition and export prohibitions and restrictions.

In view of the varying circumstances, it is hardly surprising that the approaches of participants to the agriculture aspects are also different. The extremes are represented on the one hand by the approaches of the US and CAIRNS group and on the other by those of the Community, Japan, the Nordic countries, etc.

The US was the first country to submit proposals on long-term reform. Its proposals effectively involve the phasing out of support and the full liberalisation of trade for agriculture. On import access, the US suggested that all border measures, including variable levies, should be converted into bound tariffs to be subsequently eliminated or reduced to low levels over ten years. Export subsidies would be phased out over five years. On internal support, measures directly tied to production or price levels would be phased out over ten years. In their definition, these measures would include price policies resulting from dual pricing arrangements, income support policies such as headage payments, marketing subsidies, etc. Other supports, unless minimally trade distorting, would be reduced and better disciplined. As regards sanitary and phytosanitary aspects, the US view is harmonisation should be pursued on the basis of sound scientific evidence while notification, consultation and dispute settlement systems would also be established under GATT.

The CAIRNS group, which includes, inter alia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Argentina, tabled proposals along similar lines to those of the US. This group agrees with the US on the concept of tariffication and the phasing out of export subsidies although no time limit is specified for the latter. On production and price supports, substantial reductions rather than elimination is highlighted although the ultimate objective of categorising support measures into prohibited, permitted but subject to discipline, and permitted is similar to that of the US.

The Community has made it clear that the US and CAIRNS group approaches are not acceptable to it as an outcome to the negotiations. At the same time, the Community indicated that it was willing to participate in negotiations to progressively reduce overall support to the extent necessary to re-establish balanced markets and a more market-orientated agricultural trading system. It proposed to seek out better ways to manage international markets and to redefine GATT rules and procedures. The Community is also seeking a rebalancing of support and protection for a number of sectors, including cereals substitutes and oilseeds, in order to remove distortions in trade between products such as cereals which enjoy high levels of protection and support and certain competing products where insufficient protection exists. Credit is also being sought for reform measures undertaken since 1986.

The Community is also prepared to accept some elements of tariffication on the assumption that US deficiency payments would also be included in the system and provided the problems of rebalancing protection can also be addressed in that context. Some controls on the Community's capacity to pay export subsidies are also envisaged on the same conditions. The Community is also advocating the adoption of various mechanisms to deal with monetary and world price fluctuations.

Japan's proposals emphasised the need for Governments to retain the capacity to support agriculture and issues such as food security and the exclusion of basic foodstuffs from the realm of the negotiations. Japan also supports the elimination of export subsidies.

The Nordic countries favour an aggregate measurement of support approach in reducing support to agriculture; they also suggest incentives to move towards decoupled forms of support and addressing such issues as food security and environmental objectives. As regards export subsidies, the Nordic countries indicate a willingness to work towards the elimination of most of their export subsidies. Tariffication is seen as a possible means to reduced protection but only if allied to appropriate safeguards; variable levies should also remain a possibility.

A process of clarification and elaboration of the comprehensive longterm proposals submitted by the major participants was commenced in February last. This phase has now been completed and real negotiations have commenced as the deadline of 23 July, for the development of a framework for the remainder of the negotiations, approaches. The deadline for completion of the negotiations is December next.

The Community's approach is designed to ensure that the fundamental mechanisms of the CAP can continue to be applied and that individual elements are not singled out. In this regard, it is relevant to note that the Commission represents the Community in the GATT negotiations and that it operates within the framework of mandates agreed by Community Ministers. The Minister for Agriculture and Food, Michael O'Kennedy, in his capacity as President of the Council of Agriculture Ministers, has ensured that Agriculture Ministers are fully involved in developing the agriculture framework.

In particular, the issue was discussed at both the April and June Councils. In these discussions, Ministers reaffirmed support for the global approach to the negotiations being pursued by the Commission and, in particular, the Commission's defence of the basic principles of the CAP, including such essential elements as the two-tier price system, Community preference and the role of market policy. We believe that it is essential that the Agriculture Council should continue to play a full role in the Community's input to the negotiations and in promoting the Community's agriculture interests.

For the reasons I have outlined earlier, we believe that the retention of the CAP is essential to ensure the well-being of Irish and Community agriculture. Others are seeking the progressive elimination of support and protection for agriculture over a ten year period. The Community has made it clear that while it is reasonably open in its stance, there are limits beyond which it will not go. Acceptance of fully liberalised trading arrangements for agriculture would not solve international problems but instead would lead to trade on a totally free and chaotic basis.

In this regard also it is important to note that current international prices do not represent costs of production but are merely the prices obtaining for residual production. These products would not be available at current world prices in a free trade scenario but instead prices would fluctuate widely in line with supply and demand. For example, the world price for milk used by OECD in its producer subsidy equivalent calculations for the community fell by more than 50 per cent between 1983 and 1986 and doubled between that year and 1989. Thus, the CAP also assists the consumer in assuring availability of supplies at reasonable and stable price levels. As regards the latter, estimates suggest that Community food prices would fall by only modest amounts from present levels if support and protection were eliminated.

At the same time, acceptance of world prices even somewhat higher than obtaining at present would force many farmers in the Community to leave agriculture. We could quite quickly become dependent on third countries for some of our basic foodstuffs. It is difficult if not impossible for efficient family farms, given our cost structures, to compete on equal terms with producers elsewhere, some of whom have farms extending to thousands of acres. Removing supports to Community agriculture is not levelling the playing field, it is tilting it in the direction of our competitors.

While the CAP continues to account for almost 60 per cent of the total Community budget, CAP expenditure has stabilised in recent years and accounts for only about a half of 1 per cent of the Community's GNP — a relatively small price for the benefits that accrue to both producers and consumers. I have already referred to Irish receipts from the guarantee fund. Recent calculations by Alan Matthews of Trinity College show that the net value of these budgetary transfers, together with our access to the relatively high priced Community markets for our agricultural products, represented some 9.7 per cent and 7.6 per cent of Irish GNP in 1979 and 1986 respectively. Any expectation that consumers would benefit significantly from trade liberalisation or suggestions that comparable benefits can be secured through alternative arrangements such as direct income supports are totally unrealistic.

Other studies that have been undertaken also show that the Irish economy would lose substantially more than other member states under support reduction scenarios. The losses would be felt most acutely by farmers but the services and food sectors would also be badly affected. The food sector alone currently employs 25 per cent of those engaged in manufacturing and free trade would place many of these jobs in jeopardy.

Much work remains to be undertaken during the remainder of the year if the round is to be completed on schedule. For our part, and as the Community is the world's largest importer and the second largest exporter of agricultural products, we clearly want a successful outcome to the negotiations. However, the outcome must be one which is mutually advantageous to all parties.

Our principal objective in the negotiations is to ensure that the outcome will permit the Community to continue to support farming and rural areas generally so that production, farmers' incomes and exports are maintained at reasonable levels. In this regard I believe that the Community's proposals are comprehensive, realistic and consistent both with the aims of the negotiations and our desire to support agriculture.

The informal agriculture Council meeting in Dromoland last week expressed its strong belief that the special needs of rural areas must be given a high priority by the Community. This was explained as meaning among other things the maintenance of a viable market support policy. Every opportunity has been used at political and official level to defend the CAP and the Community approach to the negotiations. I attended a ministerial meeting in Innsbruck last month where considerable support was evident for the Community's broad approach to the negotiations from both Community and EFTA countries. The Minister for Agriculture and Food will continue to ensure that the Community's Agriculture Ministers remain involved in the formulation of policy.

Senator Raftery outlined the problems which might arise if there is no agreement. However, I note that President Bush has said that the United States will walk away from the negotiations if they are not satisfied with the outcome. Despite the dangers in this course of action the Community has also indicated that it, to, has principles to defend and that these are not negotiable.

I have dealt at some length with the benefits which accrue to Irish producers, consumers and the economy generally under the present support arrangements for agriculture. I have also attempted to spell out what the Community's position is in the GATT negotiations. While it is primarily a matter for this House to determine which approach it should adopt, I believe that the case I have made demonstrates clearly that it is in Ireland's overall interest to ensure that the CAP support arrangements should be maintained to the greatest extent possible. In my view, the motion in the names of Senators Dardis, Keogh and Cullen, as amended by Senators Raftery and Hourigan, best reflects what we are attempting to do. I would, therefore, strongly recommend that approach to Senators.

May I, first, thank the Minister for attending here over the two weeks of this debate and for his contribution. I must say I am greatly encouraged by the content of his speech and it brings home to me that the Government are very well aware of the implications of this particularly grave matter for the country and for Irish farming. I hope the talks that will take place between now and the end of the year will lead to a successful conclusion and one that will be of benefit to the country. It certainly is a measure of the importance of this debate, and the importance which the House attaches to it, that so many people wanted to speak. I was very encouraged by that.

One of the main things we can do here is to make people aware of the GATT and what it is about. I share Senator Jackman's view that there is definitely a lack of awareness about it in the country. It is undoubtedly one of the most serious matters that has confronted this country, this economy and the farmers in Ireland since we joined the Common Market. I repeat what I said last week: it is possibly one of the most serious matters to confront us since the economic war. That is what it is about.

It is most unfortunate that because sections of the media in this country do not understand the GATT and do not understand its implications they are not prepared to report it and let the people know what is involved. If we achieved that and nothing else we would have done a good days work in this House. Of course, we do not always get the reportage we deserve. Sometimes we get reportage we do not deserve, but on this occasion possibly we do not get the reportage we deserve.

The objective of putting down this motion is to strengthen the Government's hand in whatever way we can in bringing the message to the Commission, to Brussels, that the Parliament of this country takes such a serious view of this matter that it has debated it and has come to a conclusion on it. If that can in any way help the negotiating position of our Minister for Agriculture and Food or our Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Commission — and I re-emphasise again that it is the Commission's responsibility to negotiate the Treaty — or strengthen their hand then I think there is a serious responsibility on us to do that.

I share many of the remarks made by Senator Doyle, but I do not have the reservations which she had about the balance of advantage in relation to taking long term and short term views and so on. There is no question about where the balance of advantage lies. The balance of advantage is in protecting this country's interests, not just the interest of the farmers of the country but in protecting the country's interests. That is a short term objective and is one which must be fulfilled.

I realise there is a different way of supporting agriculture and that there is more than one way of supporting agriculture. In relation to what was said about EFTA, which is the European Free Trade Association, certainly the way they look after their agriculture is something we could look at and possibly go down that line. I think it needs to be said that they are in general wealthy countries and that they have a very small proportion of their population in farming relative to the Community as a whole. That creates a different set of problems and a different set of circumatances entirely.

To come to the central point, this is the most important event, in my view, since we joined the Common Market and possibly for a much longer period. The next five months are going to be absolutely critical. We must let the Commission know what the view is in this country about it. It is our solemn responsibility to defend the family farm. We can argue about how we can do that best. Certainly, if the US proposals go through on the nod, in the short term the family farm will be decimated and there will be catastrophic consequences.

I do not for one moment dispute the figures which have been given to us by Senator Costello about the numbers of people who have left agricultural employment, the numbers of people who have left the land in the past 20 years or so but if we did not have the Common Agricultural Policy the numbers would be far more and the numbers employed in processing our agricultural goods and in marketing our agricultural goods would be far fewer and the country would be much poorer as a result. We are not a wealthy country, but we would certainly be a far poorer country without the Common Agricultural Policy and without having joined the Common Market, as it was then, and the European Community, as it is now. It is in the agreed Programme for Government— I am glad it is in it — that the objective is to promote the viability of the maximum number of Irish farms and anything we can do in this place to achieve that objective is something we must do; we do not have a choice about it.

I reject Senator Costello's suggestion that the farmers in some way do not get what the Community is offering. Certainly, the processors — there is no question about it — get a significant amount of the money which might properly be put into the farmers' hands. However, it comes back to the same point again: there has been colossal national benefit to this country from the Common Agricultural Policy and from being a member of the Community. As I say, we can argue all we like about reform of the Common Agricultural Policy but, if we did not have it, we would be in a very sorry state indeed.

I do not think it is a question of, as it always seems to boil down to, the big or the small farmer. It is not a question of either/or; it is a question of all farmers, and all farmers will benefit. They will certainly benefit in different degrees, there is no question about that, but that is life. All farmers benefit, both big and small. There is certainly a need for separate measures to support the smaller and more vulnerable farmers in our society, but that does not take from the central view that the policy must be defended against what the United States are saying. Allowing as many people as possible to make a decent living from the land through efficient farming is the best guarantee we have of being able to keep viable rural communities in place and of keeping people off the dole queues, the planes and the emigrant boats. That is what we must be about.

That is the reason I have no difficulty whatsoever in saying an unequivocal "no" to what the USA are proposing. Certainly, in the long term we must look at alternative ways of supporting our agriculture, at liberalising our trade to the degree that is possible, but not at the expense of taking people off the land onto the dole queues which are already oversaturated. How then do we explain to people that they have no future and no hope? I do not know how we can do that as politicians. I was glad to hear the Minister say in his speech that the Community have made it clear that the US and the CAIRNS group approach is not acceptable to the Community as an outcome to the negotiations. I congratulate him on saying that.

We can look at matters like supply management and so on, we could get into the technical detail of how the CAP operates and how farmers should be supported. Supply management has a role to play, it has worked very well in milk in terms of controlling the surplus, but there are problems in relation to the small farmers. However, the answer is not to reduce prices.

Incidentally, we have some difficulty about figures: within the past 20 minutes we have succeeded in losing one million farmers from the Community. The Minister has a figure of ten million and I have nine million. I realise they are leaving the land but I did not realise they were leaving it at quite that rate. I will not go through the figures; we have gone through the figures in detail of the relative sizes of the US farm as against the Community average farm in terms of the level of support in America versus the Community. Of course, it is true that the individual farmer gets a far greater level of support in America because there are fewer of them.

However, coming back to the central point — £1.5 billion a year is coming into the country of which £1 billion is coming from the guarantee fund. I do not know where we would be without that £1 billion. We have a big enough national debt without contemplating what it would be like without that income every year. In terms of income support, I am saying that is not the way to go. It is certainly an option in relation to keeping some small people on the land and keeping the basic rural society in place, but it must be a combination of both. Nobody seems to have mentioned that. Again, it seems to be a matter of either/or: it is either income support or price support. It is not; it can be a combination of both. The community is already going in the direction of income support to a degree. It is in the document that was produced on rural development in 1987. Headage payments are one way of putting money directly into the pockets of farmers and not giving it to the middlemen where it will be soaked up.

Certainly, the Common Agricultural Policy has defects. It has produced surpluses but why was it instituted in the first place? We had a Europe that was hungry. We had a Europe which was not self-sufficient. As I said last week, the balance between self-sufficiency, between surplus and deficit, is a very delicate one but I believe that, apart from the deficiencies which may be there in the Common Agricultural Policy, it has been spectacularly successful in making us comfortable and well fed. There are people living on the mainland of Europe who have great reason to be grateful for what agriculture has achieved within the Community in the past 25 or 30 years. We did not go through the trauma they went through in the Second World War. Certainly, there were scarcities and restrictions, but we did not know what is was like to starve. That is what was faced by people on the mainland of Europe and that must never happen again. If there is a price to be paid for that, so be it.

The matter of the dependence of the economy on the whole farming scene has been gone through in detail, so I do not need to emphasise that. However, one of the things I believe needs to be said is that there seems to be a question that if farming is doing well the other sectors of the Irish community are not doing well. Of course, that is not the case. If farming does well, the country does well. If industry does well, the country does well. I have just returned from Hungary and I was fascinated with the recognition at every level there of the importance of food production to that country and what it could achieve. I was fortunate enough to visit New Zealand and it was exactly the same thing. We are a country with a population of 3.5 million people and we cannot get it into our heads that if agriculture prospers the country prospers and if industry prospers the country prospers. There is a market out there of 350 million people and if we could only increase our share of that market by 1 per cent it would have enormous national consequences. Why does it have to be either/or? I do not understand that at all.

I would like to refer to something Senator Raftery said last week: that we do not have a world price. I accept that fully. We do not have a world price. The price on the world market is governed by stuff that is dumped by the US and other countries onto that market so we do not really have a true world market. It is a lie to suggest that there is a true world market in agricultural produce. There is not. I also share his view that free trade does not equate to fair trade.

If these proposals from GATT went through, it would be like the potato trade. I said it last week and I repeat it: it would be up one year, down the next year, people going into production, people getting out of production. That would not be in the interests of the consumer, just as it would not be in the interests of the farmer. The consumer, in my submission, has a vested interest, too in seeing that the Common Agricultural Policy stays and is kept in place.

The question of cereal substitutes has been dealt with. That is a very serious matter for tillage farmers, in particular in this country, and I believe it needs to be brought into that whole aspect of the GATT negotiations.

In conclusion, I believe there is widespread agreement on all sides of the House in relation to this matter and I would be quite happy to accept the amendment as proposed by Fine Gael. I am a little disappointed that the matter of the family farm is not included but I accept the general thrust of what everybody is saying and in that spirit I would be happy to accept the proposal.

I do not like the Labour amendment and I would not be prepared to accept it because I do not accept that price support mechanisms are a massive subsidy to large wealthy farmers. They are certainly helpful to large farmers; they have not made them wealthy and there are very few large farmers or small farmers in this country who are very wealthy by international standards. I do not accept the Labour motion.

Could I once again thank all the Senators who have contributed to this debate and thank the Minister for his attendance over the two weeks. I hope he will convey the view of this House to the Government in no uncertain terms: that we do not accept what the US are proposing under the GATT round of talks; we hope it can be concluded successfully before the end of the year and, hopefully, we will not get into a trade war.

Question put and agreed to.
Amendment No. 1 not moved.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
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