It is proposed to take item No. 1, Second Stage of the Health (Nursing Homes) Bill, 1989 until 1.30 p.m. From 1.30 p.m. to 2.15 p.m. it is proposed to have a sos and then to continue Second Stage of the Health (Nursing Homes) Bill from 2.15 p.m. until 4 p.m.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, in view of the further disruption of the Dublin-Belfast railway line last night, will the Leader of the House consider over the next week making some time available to take the motion on the subject? Secondly, could he give us some indication today of the programme of business? Has he a more firm view of the programme of business between now and the end of the session?
My understanding is that the Leader of the House gave us an undertaking yesterday that he would attempt to take the North-South communications link sometime within the next week. I would certainly wish to see that matter clarified. I also raised the question of the programme of work for the next period.
I want to raise a substantial matter on the Order of Business. On the Order of Business some time ago, it was indicated to us by the Leader of the House that an agreement had been reached with all parties that Ministers would be paired to allow the working of this House to continue. During the course of yesterday's proceedings, a Minister had to leave this House because of some row in another place, which I do not know much about. I believe it is inappropriate, contemptuous and utterly unacceptable that the work of this House is interfered with and interrupted because of some party political wranglings in another place. I understood there was a clear acceptance and agreement between all parties on this matter. I am certain that at the time the matter was raised by Senator Doyle and was accepted and welcomed by her. I am not apportioning blame to the people in this House — I want to be quite clear on that — but I certainly want to protest in the strongest possible way about the interruption of the proceedings of this House because of the lack of arrangements somewhere else. It is not acceptable, and we cannot tolerate it. I ask that all parties would make that point quite clear here today.
I want to strongly support the request by Senator Maurice Manning. I beleive that it is vital for this House and while it is not on the agenda it is a matter of national importance. The House must continue to condemn those who try to make it nearly impossible to arrange transport on this small little island. At a time when representatives of every political persuasion on the island are trying desperately to come together, we have got to isolate those who believe they have a right to disrupt transport between the two parts of our island. I would strongly support Senator Maurice Manning in his request to have this matter raised and condemn those who believe they have a right to do this.
I would like to support Senator Manning. I am particularly happy that Senator McGowan from the Government side also endorsed this. It is item No. 32. It is a motion which I was involved in formulating — it was written on the Peace Train — and it has been passed by the Dáil. It has also been noted by the European Parliament and has been passed by a number of county councils. The intention is that if it can be passed by as many bodies as possible it may have some impact on those who are disrupting the rail service. I would look forward to an early opportunity for the discussion of this motion.
I want to ask the Leader of the House when it is proposed to deal with item No. 6, the Bovine Diseases (Levies) Regulations, and if there will be an opportunity for a discussion on it.
I would like to support the latter point made by Senator O'Toole. Certainly as far as this party is concerned we will make every effort to ensure that what happened yesterday evening, with the Minister, Deputy Reynolds, being called to the Dáil to vote, does not happen again. This is a separate Chamber. Difficulties of whatever nature in the other House should not disrupt the Business of the Seanad, as far as we are concerned.
Senator Manning and other Senators referred to North-South communications. There is obviously right across the House support for some form of limited debate and I will give the House an assurance that it will take place as quickly as possible. At 12 noon today the Whips meet and I will ask them to consider that matter for discussion at some time fairly soon in the future.
Senator Manning and Senator O'Toole referred to the programme of work. About two weeks ago, I indicated what kind of legislation we were expected to pass in this House before the summer recess. Happily I might say, it has reduced slightly from the list I gave at that time. It now looks as if the following Bills will have to be passed by the Seanad before the summer recess. In addition to the Bills we have at present which are the Health (Nursing Homes) Bill, 1989, the Criminal Justice (No. 2) Bill, 1990 and the Industrial Credit (Amendment) Bill, 1990, we are also expected to pass — and we would hope to pass — the following Bills: the Shannon Navigation Bill, 1990, the Pensions Bill, 1990, the Industrial Relations Bill, 1989, the Sea Pollution Bill, the Broadcasting and Wireless (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, the Insurance Bill — that is the Irish Life Bill — and the National Treasury Bill, 1990. It is a very formidable list of legislation. Therefore, the Whips will have to meet quite regularly.
We will be here until September.
I would like to think we could break on a certain date but you can see the problem we have. We are largely controlled by legislation coming to us from the other House. That is, unfortunately, a fact of life. Senator O'Toole also raised the matter of pairing. All I can say with regard to the Minister's pairing is that — to reply to Senator Doyle — I am heartened by the response she gave.
Senator McGowan also referred to the North/South problem, as did Senator Norris. I have replied to that. Senator Howard referred to item No. 6. Certainly that is something we will have to do. I would imagine it is not going to take very long and we will have to fit it in very soon.
Before the Order of Business is agreed, I want to make a point of order under the Standing Orders of the House. The operation of this House is not in any sense governed by the legislation that comes from the other House. I beg leave to correct the Leader of the House on that point.
I cannot allow it, Senator. I must ask you to desist.
I want to put that on the record.
Senator O'Toole on a point of order.
What I said was that we are largely controlled by what happens in the other House, which is a fact of life.
There is no reason we cannot leave it until September.
I am not going to allow Members to come in after the Leader of the House has replied.
Order of Business agreed to.
There is a vote in the Dáil. Again, we are confronted with this situation.
I propose that we take a sos until the Minister is available.
Regrettably, that is necessary. It is very regrettable that this had to happen.
(Interruptions).
We will take a sos until 11 a.m.
There are ten pairs and one of those pairs could be given to this House, Senator Cassidy. If you want politics, which was not introduced, you will get politics.
Sitting suspended at 10.45 a.m. and resumed at 11 a.m.
Item No. 1, the Health (Nursing Homes) Bill, 1989.
Could we be informed where the Minister is, a Chathaoirligh?
Unfortunately, there was another vote in the Dáil and the Minister had to go for that vote. Can Senator O'Reilly tell me if any progress has been made with regard to the comments made by Senator Doyle where she indicated that they hoped to resolve this matter as quickly as possible? If it continues for the day we will have to do something positive. At this time I am asking the Whips to meet immediately to see if this practice is to continue, because if it does, we would have no choice but to adjourn the House for the full day.
I made the point that the Whips should meet.
They were to see if we would adjourn the House for the full day.
The Minister is gone for another vote.
I would like to use the adjournment to see if we can have this problem resolved. We should start working on it straightaway. Perhaps we should adjourn until 11.30 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 11.03 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.
Will we have a Minister? We understood that discussions were going on between the Whips. Have we any indication yet as to whether some satisfactory solution has been achieved?
I have not been informed of any decision in relation to the discussions that were to take place. I do not know what the position is in the other House which has been affecting the presence of the Minister here. Divisions have been arising there all morning.
It is outrageous that the operation of the House should be disrupted in this fashion. There was a clear agreement between the different groupings and parties that the workings of this House should no longer be affected by the business of the other House. I find it outrageous that we should now find ourselves in a situation where the business of the House cannot continue because of a row some place else. I do not see any point in continuing with this for the rest of the day. We cannot even begin our business. It is a total waste of time and money and is comtemptuous of the dignity of this House. It is inexcusable and is something we cannot tolerate. I find it an untenable situation.
I would like to say how sad I am that this should be happening. I have been a Member of the Seanad since 1977 and through the years we tried to get this arrangement with all parties in a gentlemanly way. Yesterday evening the Minister, Deputy Reynolds, had to leave the House for two votes. I do not know if there is any arrangement now.
The Minister should be with us shortly. There are eight pairs in the Dáil. With the political difficulties ongoing in the Dáil, ten plus one are the arrangements, the one being Minister Frank Fahey who is looking after all our interests in Rome. There was no pair requested today for the Minister, Deputy Treacy, who is apparently taking this Bill. It would have been granted if it had been requested. There was no pair asked for last night for the Minister, Deputy Reynolds. It would have been granted if it had been requested because it was within quota, so to speak.
There are two points here. There is the short-term difficulty of whether we should have to ask for pairs. I am not happy with that. I fully support the principle that the Minister here should be automatically paired but while we resolve the longer-term policy difficulty of that principle there is actually no need for interruptions in this House.
I would be the last person to play politics in this House because I disapprove of it. There was no addition to the agreement that Ministers would be paired while they are in the Seanad on legislation; on certain Bills we would have go down and make sure he had a pair. Senator Doyle has just made a statement that we did not ask yesterday evening for a pair for Minister Reynolds, that if we had asked for a pair we would have got it, that we did not ask for a pair this morning for Minister Treacy and if we had asked for it we would have got it. I thought there was an agreement for the Seanad that whatever Minister was here would be paired. It should be separated from the upset and sadness in the other House.
I am slightly confused having listened to Senator Doyle. The question is quite simple as far as I am concerned; is Minister Treacy paired or is he not? If he is not paired, then there is a breach of an agreement which is that the Minister is automatically paired. That is outrageous, unforgivable and is contemptuous of this House. I regret having to say that but it is showing contempt for this House for the Opposition to allow what is happening in the other House to affect the business of this House. This House will be disrupted possibly all day, possibly all next week, possibly until the Dáil adjourns. That is outrageous and is something we cannot tolerate. I would ask them to do something about it as soon as possible.
The agreement was not conditional on what might be happening in the other House. I have no doubt about the bona fides of Senator Doyle and her attempts to solve this unhappy situation. I do not think we could agree to it being in any sense conditional on what is happening in the Lower House, whether there is one pair, two pairs, ten pairs or 50 pairs in the Lower House. It must be unconditional.
We must conclude this. The Minister is present. I allowed Senators considerable latitude because it was a matter affecting the processes of this House and was of grave importance to the Members.
We are constantly being told when we raise issues on the Order of Business that the affairs of the other House are not relevant to what goes on here. They either are or they are not. Very obviously they are this morning. We should accept that reality and act accordingly. What I suggest is that the two major parties clean up their act. We have had lots of moralising and talk about the importance of this House. In the heel of the hunt, by their actions you will know them.
We could have done without that little sermon from the last speaker. However, now is not the time to continue this row. Clearly there has been a misunderstanding. Up to now the Opposition have always paired Ministers in the Seanad. There is an understanding that pairings are cleared between the Whips but that seems to have broken down. The important thing now is that we get on with the business of the House and clarify the matter from this point on.
I support the principle that a Minister is paired automatically in this House. It is not just for Minister Treacy but for all other business of the House. We have agreement on the principle of automatic pairing for a Minister who comes to this House. He should not have to leave the House whenever a vote is being taken. I would like to think that would continue for the rest of the business in this and in the next session.
On that note we will conclude this debate this morning. The point has been adequately made. I welcome the Minister for State to the House.