The Order of Business for today is Item No. 3; the International Development Association (Amendment) Bill, 1990, which will be taken until 6 p.m. If that Bill could be finished this evening it would be appreciated, but if there are many speakers and if the House feels Members want more time then certainly we can continue the debate on that item tomorrow. We will have a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. and at 6.30 p.m. to 8 o'clock we will have Motion 83, the Fine Gael motion on education.
Order of Business.
Before talking on the Order of Business, may I report back from a meeting attended by Senator Tras Honan and myself yesterday of the Broadcasting Control Committee where the points made last week by some of our colleagues about the unsightly protuberances, the cameras, were raised and the matter is being taken fully on board by the officials. The problem here arises from the fact that this is a very old building and the supports necessary for the cameras need to be larger and stronger than those in the other House. However, the architect from the Office of Public Works who was responsible for the redecoration of the Chamber is being consulted. There are plans now in train to ensure that the cameras are less unsightly and that they may well be removed. However, there are plans on which they will come back to us, so the matter is being given full attention.
Secondly, from that meeting yesterday I would like to inform colleagues that the first trial televising of proceedings here will be on 10 December and it is hoped the system will be fully working not long after the Dáil system goes fully into effect at the end of January.
On the Order of Business, may I ask the Leader of the House if it is his intention that the Companies Bill, which I gather is due to finish in the Dáil next week, will be taken before Christmas and if so — since I gather there are 258 amendments in that Bill — if he can give us an assurance that there will be, to use his own phrase, no curtailment of time motion, no guillotine with regard to that Bill when it comes in.
Also on the Order of Business, may I clarify with the Leader of the House the position on tomorrow's business? I know it is not quite in order to ask about tomorrow's business on today's Order of Business but he mentioned that he intends taking the International Development Association Bill tomorrow if it did not conclude today. I have no objection to that whatsoever but I just want to know the order tomorrow in order that people can plan what contributions they would wish to make. I understood that tomorrow we intended taking the Teachers' Superannuation Bill and we want to know in what order you intend taking that at this point.
I would also like to know what plans the Leader of the House has for the taking of the Appropriation Bill during this term. The reason I raise that is that we had an extraordinary situation in the past two years where that Bill had to be rushed through on a final sitting day and we had to return to it some time in late January. The whole debate was disjointed; it did not have any fluency about it and I think it is far too important. It covers everything the State is involved in during this period and I believe we should insist that there will be enough time.
The final issue I want to raise again is the question of business which will be initiated in this House for the rest of this term. I have been raising this since our first day and I really am unhappy with the way we have been treated. I believe the House is not getting a fair representation in terms of the initiation of Bills from Government. Various specific Bills have been raised on this side of the House through the past number of weeks. I am not going to raise any specific Bill except to say that we are entitled to know what is in train in terms of the initiation of legislation in this House.
May I say how pleased I was to read at the weekend of the promotion of the Clerk, Mr. Ciarán Coughlan, to the position of Clerk of the Dáil.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I do not think it is appropriate to discuss that today. The clerk will be with us next week and we will have an opportunity to pay our tributes then, if need be.
Thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. I am certainly delighted to hear we will have the opportunity to pay full tribute to the Clerk.
On the Order of Business, now that the Bill dealing with the distribution of the unclaimed prize money in the sweepstakes has made its way through the Dáil, may I ask the Leader of the House if he can give us a firm indication of when we can expect the Bill to be debated in this House and an assurance that it will be debated before Christmas? I would also like to ask the Leader of the House in view of newspaper reports at the weekend that the Environmental Protection Agency Bill was on its way to give us an indication of when we can expect it to be debated in this House.
Finally, in view of the fact that the Leas-Chathaoirleach read out something of the order of six items which Members sought to raise on the Adjournment, would it be possible to review the present system so that perhaps more than one item could be taken, particularly on occasions where many items are raised by Members.
I move: "That Motion 79 be added to the Order of Business." As the House knows, this is the item which expresses concern at the Government's lack of action in meeting the requirements of the Court of European Rights about discrimination against homosexual citizens. In that connection I would like the Leader of the House to give us some explanation as to what happens from week to week in regard to items that are brought up here constantly. The fact that the Government are not meeting the European Court's judgment is nothing less than a scandal and is calculated to put our image in very great contempt, this studious, continued ignoring of a court judgment. I would like to ask, through the Chair, if the Leader of the House represents this matter to the Taoiseach and whether he also represents the continuing concern of Senator Pól Ó Foighil, the details of which we need not go into and the ignoring of which is equally outrageous. Are these chronic concerns of the House really represented from week to week to the Taoiseach or is the Leader of the House serious about them at all?
I would like to say one other thing. When last Wednesday I asked the Leader of the House to reply, as Gaeilge, to Senator Ó Foighil's question, I was not in the slightest meaning to be personal and I greatly resent the Cathaoirleach's statement that my remarks were intended to cause embarrassment — they certainly were not. I have never made any secret of the fact that I expect everyone in a prominent position in both Houses of the Oireachtas to have a working knowledge of Irish and to answer in Irish those items which are put in Irish. I make no apology for that. It is absolutely outrageous that Fianna Fáil——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot go back over last week's proceedings.
——in particular should show such hypocrisy in this matter and I have no intention of having my wrists slapped by Fianna Fáil for defending the Irish language.
Leanfaidh mé as Béarla for the benefit of the few who might not be fluent. I would like to ask the Leader of the House to allow time for an item on the Order Paper that comes up quite often for discussion — the annual report of the Minister for Agriculture and Food. This is vital. At the present time there are difficulties in this section which merit our concern and discussion. I think it is right and proper to raise this matter. I believe that when the report comes before the Seanad it is right that we should have an opportunity to discuss it. I appeal for that opportunity, despite the fact that we have had recent discussions on motions on agriculture. It is opportune now and time should be provided for discussing this important matter.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he would bring to the attention of the Taoiseach and the Government the need to form an Oireachtas all-party committee to look at the whole question of the Constitution. It is quite clear now that, given our continuing integration into and involvement with the EC at many different levels, we are now facing at least a minimum of six referenda over the next 18 months. It would be irresponsible of us if we could not find some way of avoiding this and putting the Irish people through referendum after referendum. The Progressive Democrats are convinced that there is a need for this all-party committee, if we can get agreement, to sit and look at this matter. At least in the first instance, perhaps we could get together and, hopefully, come to a satisfactory conclusion on it.
And to commit hara-kiri?
No, not hara-kiri. We have never been afraid of doing that and we will not either.
I wish formally to second Senator Murphy's amendment to the Order of Business.
Ba mhaith liom a rá leis an gCeannaire arís inniu go gcuireann sé alltacht orm go bhfuil socruithe déanta anois le go bhféadfar an treallamh teilifíse anseo a chur ag obair ar 10 Nollaig, agus táimid anseo le blianta ag iarraidh go gcuirfí córas aistriúcháin sa Teach seo agus níl sé ceadaithe. Ní bheidh mise ag ardú na ceiste seo sa Teach seo níos mó. Tá mé tar éis scríobh, tríd an gCeannaire, chuig an Cathaoirleach agus a chur in iúl dó, mura mbeidh córas aistriúcháin anseo tar éis na Nollag, é ag feidhmiú agus daoine réidh chun dul i mbun oibre ann, go bhfuil mé chun an cás a thógáil go dtí an Ardchúirt chun mo chuid cearta bunreachtúla a bhaint amach.
I would like to add my voice in support of what my colleagues, Senator Murphy and Senator Ross have said with regard to motion 79. It is astonishing that the Government can continue in flagrant, open contempt of the European Court of Human Rights.
I would like also to second what Senator Cullen has said about an all-party committee; but I would remind him that an all-party committee reported in 1967 and recommended, among other things, the amendment of Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution. That was just thrown in the bin. What guarantee does Senator Cullen think we might have that a similar fate would not await this document, supposing it was allowed——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot discuss that today, Senator.
I am just mentioning it.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
You would have to put down a motion on it.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House also if there is any intention whatever of abandoning the dog-in-the-manger attitude of the Government with regard to legislation and permitting the Seanad to operate properly and constitutionally as a Chamber in which legislation occasionally arises in this forum from the Opposition and from the Independent benches. I would like to point out that senior officials of this House are today hypocritically assailing Mr. Dubcek, but I wonder if they share any of his ideas because the operation of this Parliament does not suggest to me that that is the case.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator should leave the officials out of it.
In that case I would like to bring in an official, if I may, having been tempted into this indiscretion by your good self and just ask what are the rules guiding the conduct of the Chair. I note here that in the record of 21 November 1990, when Senator Murphy attempted to raise a point of order, the Cathaoirleach said "There are no more points of order". Is it within the arbitrary remit of the Cathaoirleach of this House to decide the points at which there are no further points of order?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot go back over last week's business.
It is a question of principle. If the Chair wishes, he may consider it a point of order.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It does not arise now; it is out of order.
It does arise; I have just risen it.
I raised last week with the Leader of the House the question of the legislation on the reform of local government. Unfortunately, I was out of the Chamber when the reply was given but I know the Leader of the House said there was really no information on it. I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he would give us some information. There is a time frame on this. The local elections were postponed last year because we were told there were to be local government reforms introduced urgently; they were due to take place in June of this year. If we are not to have the legislation before the Dáil and before this House, are we to assume that once again this is going to be used as an excuse? Do we believe in local government democracy or do we not? I know there are people who want to abolish this House. There are people who would dearly love to abolish local councils. I am——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot have a speech on it, Senator.
I would like to have some information from the Leader of the House. Is it serious that we are going to have this legislation in time for the holding of the local elections in 1991?
We in Fine Gael support Motion No. 79 on the Order Paper and have done so consistently. Unfortunately, it has been on the Order Paper for far too long but we did agree with the Whip concerning this week's business. While the Government's behaviour really has been reprehensible on this issue and defies explanation, at this stage, I am asking the Leader to give us an assurance this afternoon that this item will be discussed by the Whips, to be brought on to our Order Paper as a matter of urgency. We will maintain the order today as we agreed it with you but we cannot continue to ignore a legitimate request from a section of this House if this matter is ignored.
Ba mhaith liom tacú le mo Chomhsheanadoirí, an Seanadóir Murphy agus an Seanadóir Ó Foighil maidir leis an easpa chóras aistriúcháin. Tá seafóid den chéad scoth ar siúl sa tír seo agus i dTithe an Oireachtais faoin nGaeilge. Is féidir gach rud a rá ach ní cheadaítear faic a dhéanmh faoin nGaeilge i gceachtar de Thithe an Oireachtais. Ní fheadar cén fáth? B'fhéidir go n-oireann sé do dhaoine faoi leith gur mar sin a bheadh an scéal.
I want to join with my colleagues and to express my increasing frustration with the absence of any willingness on the part of the Government to introduce significant legislation in this House. I do not want another list from the Leader of the House, whom I like and admire, of what we will get from the other House because there are few spectacles more disedifying to this House than a rush of legislation by impatient Ministers, where people are often in some cases almost conjoined to silence as Ministers rush through legislation which they really do not want to spend much time on and where they are resolutely intent on refusing all amendments. Can the Leader tell me not what legislation he expects from the Dáil but if there is one single piece of Government legislation that he expects to be introduced in this House? I do not mean something with two lines in it but something which would be worthy and deserving of debate.
Since it appears to me that there is a shortage of serious legislation in this House, could I perhaps ask the Leader — I know Senator Costello has often raised this — in the light of the appalling tragedy of the suicide of a young man if we could please talk about our prison system? It seems to be a receipe for suicide after suicide after suicide. It does not prevent crime. It does not do any good that I know and it is doing irreparable damage and causing the deaths of numbers of people. We should discuss it; that is what this House should be doing.
I just want to put on record that Senator Norris went on radio during the week regarding Item No. 2 on today's Order Paper and he stated, if I heard him correctly, that Government Senators were merely conniving to put this legislation through all Stages on that day. That was untrue. In fact, the atmosphere in the Chamber last week when Item No. 2——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That does not arise on the Order of business.
The image of this House to the nation, the wrong image, certainly should be discussed.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I cannot allow you to discuss last week's business.
(Interruptions.)
Will we have an opportunity to correct the point that Senator Honan has just made?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
When the Bill comes back again. I am calling Senator Fallon.
Senator Manning referred to a report which he gave to the House regarding the meeting he had in recent days. He also asked about the Companies Bill, when it would be taken here, and if possible before Christmas. I am not sure that it will be taken here before Christmas. I know it is in the Dáil and that the number of amendments is immense. My information is that we may not have it here before Christmas.
Senator O'Toole referred to the Appropriation Bill. It is a Bill where one can raise any item dealing with any aspect of Government expenditure. We must pass it by the end of December. We tend to pass it on the last day of the session prior to Christmas with one or two speakers and then we resume the debate in January. I will see if we can change that format but the other way has been the tradition and we may have to stick to that. However, I will investigate the point he made.
On the question of initiating Bills, as I said last week, we have four new Bills to discuss. I accept the Senator or others may think they are not very serious, but they are. All legislation must be seen as serious because it is of benefit to many people; therefore, we should not treat it lightly.
Senator Upton asked about the Irish Hospitals Sweepstakes Bill. My understanding is that we will have that before Christmas. He also asked about the Environmental Protection Agncy Bill, as did one or two other speakers. I noted that Senator Ryan referred to substantial legislation. I have indicated over the past few weeks that we are very hopeful of getting that Bill and I am satisfied that it will be initiated in the Seanad when it is published.
Senator Murphy proposed a change in the Order of Business in order to take motion 79 and that was seconded by Senator Ross. Senator Doyle said we were not doing very much about it. As far as I am concerned, I have been following up this matter. Senator Norris would agree that I gave a fairly substantial reply some months back on the position then. The European Court judgment of two years ago is now with the Department of Justice. The Law Reform Commission reported five or six weeks ago and that report is being studied very carefullly. That is the position at the moment. There is very little I can do about it while it is in the Department of Justice.
We have been waiting 14 years——
(Interruptions.)
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Leader of the House, without interruption.
I say to Senator Norris I am not talking nonsense. He might be but I am not.
Senator McGowan asked about the annual report from the Minister for Agriculture and Food. We had a major debate on agriculture recently but I have no objection to putting that item on the Order Paper sometime for discussion. It might be worthwhile.
Senator cullen referred to an all-party committee to update the Constitution. It is not appropriate to the Order of Business but I will make inquiries about it.
Senator Ó Foighil asked abut the translation service. The Committee on Procedures and Privileges and I have been actively pursuing this. It is not my fault or that of the committee. This matter will be resolved as quickly as possible and we will be pushing for that.
Senator Doyle indicated support for motion 79. I have explained the position there. Senator Ryan referred to the absence of significant legislation. I have already indicated my hopes and aspirations, in that regard for a major piece of legislation in the near future. He also asked about the prison system. I have no plans for a debate on that at this time. Senator Honan referred to comments which were made by another Senator.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Murphy has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That item No. 16, Motion 79, be inserted after Motion 83". Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes, and it will continue to be pressed.
Senators
Vótáil.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Amendment to the Order of Business in the name of Senator Murphy. The question is: "That item No. 16, Motion 79, be inserted after Motion 83". On that question a division has been challenged. Will the Senators claiming this division please rise?
More than five Senators stood.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The division will proceed.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 8; Níl, 30.
Tá
- Harte, John.
- Hederman, Carmencita.
- Murphy, John A.
- Norris, David.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Upton, Pat.
Níl
- Bennett, Olga.
- Bohan, Eddie.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Sean.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Conroy, Richard.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Dardis, John.
- Fallon, Sean.
- Lydon, Don.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Foley, Denis.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Honan, Tras.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Michael.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Donovan, Denis A.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- Ryan, Eoin David.
- Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Murphy and Ross; Níl, Senators Wright and McKenna.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.