The business for today is as follows: on the conclusion of the Order of Business we propose to take item No. 3 and when that is concluded it will be followed by all-Stages of item No. 4, the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1990. That is to conclude not later than 5.15 p.m. and at that stage a sos until 6 p.m., followed at 6 o'clock, by agreement with Senator Brendan Ryan in particular, to start the Private Members' debate from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. or perhaps for a little longer. We are also having a sos from 1 p.m. until 2 p.m. for lunch.
Order of Business.
In view of the fact that the Taoiseach has at last unbended on the question of Committee on Foreign Affairs and has agreed that one will be set up in the near future, could the Leader of the House ensure that one of two things happen — that either this House has its full representation on the committee, if it is to be a joint committee, or else that separate steps to be taken to establish at the same time a committee on foreign affairs from this House, which I think would be the preferred option of Members of this House. I would ask the Leader if he would consult with the other group leaders before the recess to see what the preferred option of this House is and then ensure that it is put into effect with all speed. We would all like to see a committee on foreign affairs in operation at the beginning of the next session.
Having been pushing for such a committee for a couple of years now, the Independent benches certainly welcome the tentative moves to establish such a committee. We would also want to establish that, despite the fact we were excluded from the Anglo-Irish Committee, we would not expect anything like that to happen this time. I will say no more on that issue.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he would indicate to us the legislative programme which he intends presenting to the House for the period after the recess. I would also ask the Leader of the House to bring to the attention of the Government Chief Whip of the other House that he will not be in a position to initiate legislation right through the budget debate in the other House and that that gives him an absolutely open opportunity to have both Houses working compatibly with each other through the initiation of legislation in this House.
I would simply like to add my voice to the request that the international affairs committee be established with all due expedience and that it be properly representative of both Houses. We have been looking for it for a long time. It is something that has been a major lacuna in the operation of the Oireachtas and because of it we could not discuss——
The Senator must confine himself to the Order of Business.
——matters of major international concern that should have been brought properly before the House. I am delighted to see that there is some tentative move in that direction.
As we seem to be on the brink of another important piece of Progressive Democrat policy being implemented——
(Interruptions.)
The Senator really has gall.
——by the establishment of the foreign affairs committee, could I welcome that move. I disagree with Senator Manning in that I would like to see this committee being an all-party Oireachtas committee. I do not think it would be worthwhile having separate committees in existence in each of the Houses. I believe that the Members of this House have just as important a contribution to make to that committee as the Members of the Dáil. I would hope that with all speed that committee would be established on an Oireachtas basis.
I would like to support the views expressed by Senator Manning, but may I ask the Leader of the House if it would be possible to have an early discussion on Motion No. 82? I think it is appropriate that the House should be able to monitor developments and problems, especially across the USSR and Eastern Europe, during this very significant era of change. I believe that our Minister for Foreign Affairs would benefit by the views that one would expect to be expressed in the House.
May I say that I am more and more impressed with the way Senator Cullen has discovered the worth of Seanad Éireann. I hope he will pass on the message to his party and that they will change their policies appropriately.
(Interruptions.)
They seem to be the Government indeed.
They are not.
The Leader undertook to inquire about the money allocated by the Department of the Environment for expenditure on the homeless. Since that money will be returned unspent to the Department of Finance in about a fort-night's time, which nobody I think would regard as satisfactory, I ask if he has made any progress on that issue?
May I join with my colleagues in welcoming the apparent decision to set up a committee on international affairs and correct at least one of the morning newspapers? The current Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the EC is not a Dáil committee; it is an Oireachtas committee, a committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas, and if it is to be replaced it should be replaced, as my colleagues have said, by an Oireachtas committee. I have a funny feeling that all six Members of the Independent group want to be on it, but that is a matter for a later day.
Could the Leader give me some indication — I am not trying to set a trap for him; it is simply from the point of view of organisation — when roughly does he expect the Environmental Protection Agency Bill to be taken? I know it is ordered for the first sitting day, but that does not necessarily mean it will be taken then. I do not want to tie a noose around his neck, but I would like a rough indication as to whether it will be on the first sitting day after the recess a few weeks later, or when.
I would like to join in support of moves by the Taoiseach to establish a foreign affairs committee and to draw the attention of the House to the fact that there was a debate in the previous Seanad, a major debate, on the establishment of a foreign affairs committee. There is now on the supplementary Order Paper two motions requiring a foreign affairs committee. I wonder if the Leader would consider holding a debate in Government time on this issue so that the views of the House can be ascertained with regard to the precise provisions, because there is one motion in the name of the Labour Party and another in the name of myself and they are slightly different. Such a debate would be very useful, in the light of the Taoiseach's announcement. It might also clear up some confusion because the Leader indicated yesterday that he felt that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the EC was a kind of foreign affairs committee; but that displays, I have to say, a rather narrow view of geography because there is considerably more in the globe than just the European Community. I would think it would be those other countries with which Ireland has a very strong and interesting connection, particularly in Latin America and Australia——
A question for the Leader?
That is my question, that we would have that debate. I would like to supplement it by a second question, which is, if the Leader would consider it appropriate during that debate to bring up the question of the Amnesty report on Iraq or, if not, if perhaps he would consider taking up the suggestion, which I think, was made by Senator Conroy yesterday, that there is such concern about developments in the Gulf that this House ought to consider the matter because the expiry of the American ultimatum will be on 15 January. Perhaps the Leader might consider having an urgent debate on that issue so that the views of Senators could be made known.
Finally, because of the time constriction of this ultimatum, would the Leader give us some indication whether or not this House will meet? I understand we may be meeting tomorrow, but will we meet again before 15 January?
I, too, would like to join with the other Senators and welcome the announcement by the Taoiseach in relation to the foreign affairs committee. It is wonderful news from the Taoiseach, the 13 members of the Fianna Fáil Government and the other two. The plain people of Ireland know who initiates such ideas, the great statesman, and how well the Taoiseach performed——
Senator Cassidy, I know your affection is this regard——
I want to ask you, a Chathaoirligh, to allow me to bring to the notice of the House something which may not be appropriate to the Order of Business but which I think is of serious concern for us as Members. It is in relation to the facility for car parking in the grounds of Leinster House afforded to past members of the House. I would like the Leader to either confirm or deny this. I have heard that past Members have been denied the right for parking facilities in the past few weeks.
What the Senator has raised is very important, but I would like to point out to him that it is a matter which should be raised at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I appreciate his genuine concern and it is important that it be discussed.
People have given a life-time of service here and the least we can do is give them the facilities of the House here, which all past Members always had.
It is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I would like to ask the Leader, as I have done on previous occasions with not much success, if the report of the special committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. T. Barrington, on the reforms of local government will be made available to this House. It was due to be handed in last Monday. In view of the fact that that report is now to hand, can we have some indication of when the legislation on local government reform will be before us? There is a pressing urgency about this because the local government elections, which were put off for one year, and due to take place in June. I am not going to be put in the position of pressing for those elections to take place without the new legislation being put in place. I would like also to have further information on the Environment Protection Agency Bill.
I would like to say that, since Senator Cassidy was allowed to raise the matter of car parking, I think it is outrageous that those of us who ride bicycles should be discriminated against by having the two bicycle parks at the furthest end of either park.
Committee on Procedure and Privileges for bicycles also.
I would like to express my gratification at the news of the impending establishment of a foreign affairs committee. When we think also of the change of heart which was indicated last week on homosexual law reform, it proves that apparently fruitless knocking at the door by backbenchers, among others, finally does get the door to open. It is a great encouragement in that regard. I know the Leader of the House will see that the best interests of Seanad Éireann are served in this matter and of the component groups therein. In fact, in all modesty, I think I would be a fine person to put on that committee. I would be very suitable, would you not agree?
I agree with the Senator a lot of the time.
Finally, I would like to say how delighted I am that the Progressive Democrats are discovering the uses of this House and I take it they will not now be proceeding with their draft motion that Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to abolish Seanad Éireann.
Would it be possible that we add as a special item to this evening's Committee on Procedure and Privileges meeting a discussion on the proposed international affairs committee and the role of Seanad Éireann in it? Perhaps we could step aside from normal procedure, because I understand we will not have another Committee on Procedure and Privileges meeting between now and sometime at the end of January. I would request the Cathaoirleach to consider that.
I would like to retrace the points raised by Senator Cassidy with regard to past Members of the House. I believe it is a matter of great urgency and great importance that that is taken on board by the appropriate body because, frankly, past Members of the House are entitled, as they were over many years——
I do not want to allow discussion on this, Senator, and we should abolish the concept of past Members in the future.
Former Members. I was once a former Member of this House myself. I exhort the Leader to take on board this very vital matter where former Members of this House are not degraded and not——
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges can examine this.
I have just three points: first, parking——
The facilities for Members is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, not for the House at this point.
I would like the Leader to know that this is a strong and active matter in the minds of the Members of this House.
Senator Manning, as did many other Members, expressed a welcome for the formation of a foreign affairs committee, as indeed I do. It is something I have been privately trying to have taken on board and I am glad in will now become a reality. Senator Manning also asked if it would be a joint committee and put general queries about the composition of the committee. I have to say I am sure of that at this time. I have noted his observations in relation to this matter and this would also be my reply to Senator Murphy, I will be doing my best to see that, irrespective of the form of committee in place, Senators will be well represented on that committee.
Senator O'Toole also referred to the foreign affairs committee and welcomed it. He asked about the business after Christmas. At this stage I can say with certainty that we will have the Appropriation Bill for debate and, in particular, the EPA. We will have EPA soon after Christmas. I would say to Members that this is very important legislation and I urge Members to examine it, analyse it, read about it, come here and do justice to that legislation and leave it in such a way that when it goes from this House it will be much better legislation, legislation that cannot even be improved in the other House. For the short term period after the Christmas recess my plea to Members would be to study the EPA Bill, give it a thorough analysis and make sure it is a better Bill when it leaves the Seanad. Senator Costello also welcomed the foreign affairs committee and Senator Cullen referred to it on the basis of an all-party Oireachtas committee. I honestly have to say I am not sure how it is moving at this time.
Senator McDonald asked about Item No. 82. In regard to items such as that, and also the matter of the prison system, which Senator Harte, among others, asked about, I gave the Senator a guarantee that it would be taken as quickly as possible after Christmas. That is still my plan.
I have noted the concern of Senator B. Ryan about the £500,000 which was earmarked for the homeless and I have informed the Department about that. The Senator also welcomed the foreign affairs committee and he, too, asked about the Environmental Protection Agency Bill. As I said, that will be taken soon and we will have to do justice to it.
Senator Norris, too, welcomed the foreign affairs committee and asked for a debate. While there was a conflicting point of view from Senator Manning, Senator Norris asked how a debate at this point might be proceeded with. I will see how we can handle it.
Senator Norris also referred to the Amnesty report on Iraq. I would have to agree with Senator Norris that I find that report quite disturbing. However, I cannot give the Senator a guarantee that it or any other item will be taken before 15 January.
Senator Cassidy also welcomed the foreign affairs committee. He asked about car parking for former Members. One or two other speakers also asked about that, in particular Senator Hourigan. This matter was brought to my attention yesterday evening. At that point it was indicated to me that we know of at least three former Members who had been refused. Since then I have been told of one or two others who were refused. I was a bit annoyed and disturbed because one of the people concerned had given 25 years' service to this House. My information, having checked it, is that apparently this regulation has been there since 1982 but has not been enforced until the past month or six weeks. What happens, I understand, is that on the Wednesday this rule operates, not on any other day. I would like to think this long-standing privilege, which is rightly there for former Members, would be available in the same way as exists for serving Members. As the Cathaoirleach has said, this is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and I can assure all Members of the House that, with the Cathaoirleach's permission, it will be debated this evening.
Senator Hederman asked about the Barrington report. I am aware it was ready for handing over last week. I am not sure if it will be made available to this House; I would imagine perhaps not, but I will make inquiries. The Senator also asked about the EPA Bill and about bicycle parking, which I am sure will not be raised at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I agree with Senator Murphy about the role of the backbenchers in regard to the foreign affairs committee. I do not always agree with the backbenchers on the other side, but I agree on this.
Senator Doyle asked about the role of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and whether we can take on the arrangements for discussion on the foreign affairs committee. I have no objection to that; it is a matter for the Cathaoirleach. Senator Hourigan also asked about car parking for former Members.
Order of Business agreed to.
As the Minister had to go to the other House because of a vote, I ask the Acting Leader of the House to move an adjournment for five minutes.
On a point of order, I am under the impression, as I am sure everybody else is here, that there is an automatic pairing arrangement for Ministers for votes in the other House. We have not changed that. That has been in operation for quite some time now, so there is no reason the Minister should be in the other House voting at this stage.
That is the position.
I realise it is not your fault, a Chathaoirligh.
I will make inquiries as to the arrangements. I understand that this is not a very satisfactory arrangement.
It happened the last time and the arrangement was withdrawn. However, it was reinstated immediately and, to the best of my knowledge, it is still in operation.
I will check it out.
Last week the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, had to leave the House for a vote. We were surprised at the time because the arrangement was in place and there was confusion, but he had to go to vote.
Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.15 a.m.