First of all, I want to thank the Minister for making herself available at such short notice.
Adjournment Matter. - Accommodation for Juvenile Offenders.
I was in the Dáil on the Order of Business. I am available at any time to come to the Seanad, but one minute's notice is rather rash. To be truthful, I do not think it is fair on any Minister to expect her or him to appear at one minute's notice.
Unfortunately, Minister, the motion on the Workers Protection Act did not go the distance this morning and in those circumstances the difficulty arose. Senator Cosgrave, in fairness to him, was prepared to acknowledge the difficulty that had arisen for you personally.
I would not castigate Senator Cosgrave, a person for whom I have great admiration and liking but the fact is that I just happened to be here but I knew nothing about it. I want to put it on the record of the House that I, and my Department, had precisely one minute's notice.
The House would like to thank you, Minister, for being here at all in the circumstances.
Senator Cosgrave on the motion on the need for the Minister for Education to provide emergency temporary accommodation for juvenile offenders and to review the overall situation particularly in the light of repeated remarks by members of the Judiciary.
First, I would like to thank the Minister for coming here even at the short notice. I accept that such short notice was unfortunate. It is unusual that proceedings in the Seanad should finish so quickly, but I suppose we must take elections, etc., into account.
The matter I am raising is one which has been continually coming up in recent days, in particular the whole question of detention of and responsibility for juvenile offenders. It is a matter which the Minister here present has some responsibility for, but probably also the Minister for Justice and perhaps other Departments as well. I ask that what I say would be taken on board by the present Minister and perhaps matters not directly her responsibility would be handled by her colleagues. In recent times we have had remarks by members of the Judiciary, and particularly those of District Justice Wine, who is a most distinguished and long serving member of the bench. He has been requesting facilities. He has been requesting various Departments to respond to him in relation to the whole question of the detention of juvenile offenders but the way his comments and his appeals have been attended to is a disgrace. I will just quote briefly from the Irish Independent of Friday, 31 May 1991, where, after a juvenile who was remanded on 36 charges tried to escape from the courthouse, District Justice Wine said:
Last week in this court I made an appeal to the Minister involved, which I thought was constructive because of my belief that the authorities have absolutely no idea of the magnitude of what is involved in this shocking problem of juvenile delinquency. I have received not one word — silence. All I asked was very simple, to draft one letter to every court to ascertain the magnitude of what is involved. Obviously they have just left the matter unheeded and without care. I am not going to leave this. It is too important for the future of our children.
I am not going to leave it either, because this is a problem which is not new, it is a problem which has been going on and it is one that has to be tackled by this Government. Being fair to the Minister present, I do not think it is her Department who have not responded to Justice Wine but I will certainly ask the Minister to inquire from her colleagues if it is the case that a district justice writing to a Department with a basic simple appeal was not answered. It is a very serious situation and it has to be investigated.
We are all aware of a spiralling crime wave. We have seen it and we are hearing about it nightly on the doorsteps, in particular the problem of juvenile offenders who drift eventually into serious difficulties in relation to drugs, etc. There is also the growing problem of stealing cars, that is what it should be known as, stealing cars, and not at times glorified as joy riding, trying to make it out to be some sort of a half respectable pastime. That should be rejected by all Members of this House. I am sure the Minister shares my concern on this. While it is more a problem for the Dublin area and other urban areas, I am sure the Minister would acknowledge that it is a problem even in parts of her own constituency.
We have to deal with the question of how juvenile offenders are treated, how they are educated and, above all, how best we can try to rehabilitate them. Under the heading "Principles for dealing with juvenile offenders" the Whitaker report of 1985 stated in paragraph 9.6:
The Committee considers that the following principles should be observed in responding to juvenile crime:
...juvenile offenders should be kept out of the criminal justice system as far as possible.
I am sure we would all agree with that. We should have special courts and we should not have a juvenile charged, followed by somebody on a very serious offence such as assault or robbery. As far as possible juveniles should be protected. If we can deal with prevention and have matters sorted out initially, juveniles can be put on the straight and narrow.
The second point from the Whitaker report is:
Intervention in the life of the juvenile offender should, in the first place, be on a voluntary basis and with his co-operation. This would involve either the Garda Juvenile Liaison Officers (where the juvenile is not being prosecuted) or the Probation and Welfare Service (where the juvenile is being prosecuted)....
I appeal to the Minister here and to her other colleagues to put as much resources as possible into the juvenile liaison system and to try to allocate extra juvenile liaison officers and extra community gardaí. If an extra few pounds are spent in this area it will be cheaper in relation to insurance claims, in relation to the unauthorised taking of cars and, above all, it will be cheaper in relation to possible loss of life. The Whitaker report also states:
Detention of juveniles should be considered only when:
(a) they are a danger to society or to themselves (as distinct from being a nuisance, even perhaps a considerable nuisance) ...
There are many juveniles out there who could be helped with the right approach, with an educational programme in place, with meetings taking place between them and juvenile liaison officers and social welfare workers. There also has to be a greater role played by parents. Parents cannot just put this matter aside and say it is not their responsibility. They have to be made more responsible and more aware of where their juvenile and teenage sons and daughters are at any time. They should know exactly what they are doing. This should be part of the education process as well.
This whole question has to be addressed. It is a problem that is not new, but if it is not tackled soon it is going to grow to gigantic proportions. I am sure the Minister does not want to see that happening. I would be looking for a special task force, probably consisting of the Ministers for Labour, Education and, obviously, Justice and Social Welfare, to examine the problem and to report back.
Many of these people may come from socially deprived backgrounds but they can be put on the straight and narrow and kept on the straight and narrow if the right approach is made, if the matter is dealt with initially in a correct way, but there has to be intervention. I would say to the Minister present that I accept that some of the matters I have mentioned would not be the responsibility of the Minister for Education. However, in relation to the whole question of Cabinet co-responsibility, I am sure the Minister is well aware from various areas of her work in the Department of Education that a certain educational response has to be given. One area I would draw to the Minister's attention is in relation to extra funding for remedial teaching for people who, if they are not given that extra assistance at that stage, are going to drift off the straight and narrow and get into petty thievery, muggings, car taking and so on. It is a problem the Minister and her colleagues have to address now.
I look forward to the Minister's positive response to the matters I have mentioned. I repeat that it is necessary for district justices to be dealt with in a more forthright way by Departments. I do not think it is necessarily the responsibility of the Minister's Department but I would ask that she would pass it on to her colleague and find out why a simple request from a district justice was not responded to. It is a scandal that such a situation should have arisen.
As I said at the beginning — and I wish to put this on the record again — I am asking you as Cathaoirleach of the Seanad to advise me as to whom I should write with regard to the remarks I made earlier. I think that any debate in the Seanad is worthy of serious consideration; it is not worthy of the ad hoc arrangements which were made for such a debate this morning. It is not fair to the person who puts down the motion; it is not fair to a Department and it is not fair to somebody who must come in to answer. It is certainly a reflection on this House and the way it conducts its business. I would ask you to let me know to whom I address my complaint.
The business of the House is ordered by the House itself, usually in agreement between the Whips. The Chair, in the first instance — just to put that on the record — has no function in that matter.
I am glad to hear that. I had thought that.
Secondly, I understand from the Clerk Assistant that there was a communication between your office and the Clerk's office regarding this motion last Tuesday.
That was last Tuesday.
It would be normal that once it was intended to take the motion that this would be notified to the particular Department.
I received word that it was to be taken but it was then one minute before——
Apparently somebody in your own Department did not tell your secretary——
I am sorry, a Cathaoirleach, that is incorrect.
That is what was communicated.
That is quite incorrect.
That is the information I have been given.
That is quite incorrect. I left my Department at 10.25 a.m. this morning, I entered the Dáil at 10.30 a.m. and I received the telephone call one minute before I came in here. Let me be quite clear on the matter.
In fairness, I thought I would give you the information as requested.
No, I understood the House fell. The proposer of this motion was not here when I came in, so obviously he did not know about it either.
All I can tell you is what has been given to me for the purposes of assisting you, Minister.
It is an extremely odd way to do one's business. I am very glad to be here. I have never refused an invitation to this House. I am a former Member of it, I treat it with great respect and with great decorum and that is the reason I am making my complaint. It is for no other reason but that. The matter raised by Senator Cosgrave is a serious matter which warrants very serious consideration. It is a matter to which I am glad to respond on behalf of myself and my colleagues in Government. It did not deserve such ad hoc treatment.
There are at present four centres for juvenile offenders committed by the courts. Trinity House in Lusk provides secure accommodation for up to 30 boys. Finglas Children's Centre comprises St. Michael's Assessment Centre for about 20 boys on remand and St. Lawrences's Special School for approximately 55 long-stay boys, most of whom are committed by the courts, St. Joseph's Special School in Clonmel has accommodation for 75 boys, about 60 per cent of whom would be committed through the courts. There is one centre for girls, Oberstown Remand and Assessment Centre in Lusk, which has eight places for girls under 17 years of age.
The increasing frequency with which young offenders are appearing before our courts — and I agree with many of the sentiments the Senator has expressed — on serious charges and attracting custodial sentences is of course a matter of serious concern. Indeed, it was in response to this development and the resultant need to provide adequate and suitable places to acommodate such cases that the Government decided to establish an interdepartmental group to consider ways of addressing this problem. It certainly is a growing one and one which attracts concern across all strata of political thought and the wider community. One of the recommendations to come from that group was that additional permanent accommodation be provided for both boys and girls to supplement existing facilities.
The Government have taken urgent action is following up this recommendation and arrangements are currently being made to bring new facilities on stream. The focus is on providing extra places for both boys and girls dealt with by the courts. Arrangements are already well advanced for the refurbishment of a major part of the former Scoil Ard Mhuire in Lusk. Indeed, might I say that Scoil Ard Mhuire was closed in 1985 and I remember being in Opposition in Education at the time and protesting most vigorously at its closure. As I said, it is being refurbished with a view to providing an additional eight places for girls on an interim basis and 36 places for boys. The necessary site work is well advanced and steps have now been taken to recruit staff, both educational and custodial, for this centre. The additional accommodation will be available from September of this year. The Senator might have noticed that the advertisements for the educational staff were inserted in the papers by County Dublin VEC on last Sunday week.
I should mention that the reason why the accommodation for girls is on an interim basis is that a new purpose-built school for 20 girls is being planned and should be completed by 1993, to be located adjacent to the existing Finglas Children's Centre. Eight of the 20 places to be provided will be for girls on remand for assessment and the remaining 12 places will provide long term accommodation. Consultants have been appointed for the project and the preparation of detailed plans is proceeding as a matter of urgency. It will be appreciated that the nature and the purpose of this new school will be such that it must be very carefully planned. There are 36 places being provided for boys and these will be further supplemented when the new centre for girls at Finglas becomes available and the girls' units in Ard Mhuire become vacant as a result. That will allow for more young boys.
In regard to the security aspects of all of the institutions at Oberstown, Lusk, County Dublin, a detailed assessment of existing and future custodial features and requirements is being carried out at present under the aegis of my colleague, the Minister for Justice. I am satisfied that satisfactory security arrangements will be in place when it opens in September. The number of offenders referred to by the courts from time to time for secure detention varies considerably and may at times exceed the institutional capacity available. I am satisfied that the 44 additional places to be provided at Lusk in September will make a significant contribution to relieving the existing pressure for places for young offenders.
I can assure the House that the development of a more effective system of caring for youngsters who require secure containment is high on the list of Government priorities. The extra accommodation being provided and the recent assignment to the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Chris Flood, of the task of co-ordinating the efforts of the Departments most involved in this area — Education, Health and Justice — are clear indications of the Government's commitments to tackling this problem.
Senator Cosgrave said that Justice Wine had written to the Department of Education and had received no reply, a rather serious statement. I have just sent out somebody to telephone the Department and the word I got back — it may not be fully researched because all this had to be done very speedily — is that there is no record in the Department of Education of a recent letter received from Justice Wine. They had started their search fo it. Of course, we will be ringing Justice Wine and asking for a copy of the letter.
For the record, I did not say it was definitely the Minister's Department; I said it was one of the Departments.
There is no record in the Department of Education of a letter received from Justice Wine, but we will carry out an exhaustive search to see if it has arrived. Certainly, anybody who writes to me receives a reply. It may not be the reply they wish to get of course. I take it Senator Cosgrave is not exactly precise on the point.
Senator Cosgrave raised other timely matters with regard to a remedial curative approach prior to young people getting into trouble and which were of particular relevance to my Department. He spoke about the junior liaison officers. I will pass that on to my colleague, the Minister for Justice. He then touched on the matter of remedial teachers and asked for extra funding in that regard. I can say that this year, beginning in September, there will be 80 extra teachers, which in one fell swoop is more than what had been allocated in the previous five years. It is not enough, but it is a great start. Secondly, I instituted last year by psychological service for primary schools in two pilot areas, in the Clondalkin area and an area in south Tipperary. The service will be in operation in these areas for three years and then nationwide.
Thirdly, there is home school liaison link scheme and this might be the one that would be of most benefit to young people and to their parents. Last year we started a very successful home school liaison link scheme whereby teachers are appointed to a school or a group of schools but they do not teach in the classrooms; they do home visitations, talk to parents, talk to pupils, get parents interested in what is going on at school, get pupils interested. That scheme extends at the moment to 55 schools and this September it will be extended to 80 schools. The scheme is proving to be very successful and fruitful but, again, as in all these matters, the road is long and hard. I am strongly of the opinion that it is steps such as these, prior to young people "going wrong", that are the steps that need to be taken. Of course, they have to be taken for young people who get into trouble and they are the steps I have outlined here.
Justice Wine is a very caring person. I have read all of his comments and always follow what he says in the papers. He has the good of the country at heart in what he is saying. There is no doubt about that. He is at the coalface, where it is happening every day. Custodial-educational measures must be put in place. I have insisted that the greater number of places must be accompanied by a proper educational programme. Then there are the other early intervention processes whereby young people who through no fault of their own — perhaps through the environment in which they are being brought up — are not going to get as good a chance in life as other people and they will have extra help available for themselves and their parents.
I thank Senator Cosgrave for raising this matter. I again put it on the record that I am very glad at any time to come to this House.
The Seanad adjourned at 11.25 a.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 June 1991.