Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jun 1991

Vol. 129 No. 11

Adjournment Matter. - Schools Staffing.

The problem of one and two-teacher schools in various places around the country has been discussed at length by the Minister and myself on more than one occasion. It has also led to much consideration in small communities around the country. I want to say immediately that in putting this matter down on the Adjournment I am aware of the Minister's views and the Department's views and I am certainly aware of the views of teachers and communities.

There is a consensus on the need to give some from of support to the smaller schools. I want to put it clearly on the record that small schools — I am talking about the one and two-teacher schools particularly — are dotted throughout the country and are interwoven into the fabric of rural society in Ireland. They are the focal point of hundreds of Irish villages. Without a doubt the national school has been a constant factor in rural Ireland for a century and a half. These schools have been symbols of learning, of continuity, progress and stability and they are an enduring monument to a continuing development in education at primary level since 1831.

I am addrssing tonight the difficulty which arises from the threat to close down such schools. There is a view, to which the Minister will readily subscribe, that one and two-teacher schools are excellent in their own way. Every school is different. I want to put it clearly on the record that because a school is small it does not mean it cannot provide the same level of service as a large school. There is the question of maximising resources at different levels in different places and that has to be looked at.

The one-teacher school creates a particular difficulty to which I will come back and which the Minister has referred to on a number of occasions, namely, of one teacher dealing with all areas of the curriculum. The point to which I am directing attention tonight is when a two-teacher school loses a teacher and becomes a one-teacher school.

When a school goes from a two-teacher to a one-teacher school the community begins to think of the death a the school, or thinks the school is on its last legs. People begin to move out and transfer their children to other schools. Consequently, one-teacher schools are closed down. That is a pattern we have seen in many places. I was talking to people in two-teacher schools who thought they were going to lose a teacher next year and they said to me that in that event there are already four families who indicated they were going to move their children to another area. A one-teacher school can provide an excellent service. It is where there are 26, 27 or 28 pupils that the difficulty arises in trying to cope with all the different problems that arise.

The closure of a local school, in terms of other social aspects is a devastating blow to any area and it has adverse effects on the community generally. It is the beginning of the pattern of emigration, it is the beginning of the breakdown of the rural fabric, the beginning of the breakdown of the rural infrastructure. As Tussing said, the one constant factor in every village is the national school. There are more national schools than there are churches. GAA pitches or Fianna Fáil cumainn. The national school system is a widespread organisation and I am proud the members of my union are to be found throughout the country and are so closely involved with the community. It is also important to put on record that the distribution of population in Ireland is different from that of any other European country. Only in Ireland do you get a couple of houses here and there, up hill and down dale. In other countries towns tend to be built around a certain area. The cost of rural electrification in Ireland was very expensive because of the distribution of population.

The distribution of the primary education service in Ireland is very extensive because of the large number of schools. When you realise that there are 3,500 primary schools in the country as opposed to fewer than a 1,000 post-primary schools, it gives us some idea of how widespread is the primary education system. Because they are part of each community one-teacher schools need to be supported in the sense that they need to be given every opportunity to have a second teacher.

We have to accept that one-teacher schools are disadvantaged in many ways, not that there is any conspiracy to retain their disadvantage. Educationally they are under extraodinary pressure to deliver in the large one-teacher school. When I say large I am talking about schools with more than 20 pupils. They are the schools I am concentrating one tonight. The Minister indicated on a number of occasions that one-teacher schools are, in effect, disadvantaged, perhaps not in an economic sense but disadvantaged in their own way. They need a comprehensive support programme of positive discrimination. What do they want? They want more teachers, more caretaking services, more access to remedial and special education. Those are the issues on which they need support.

I am homing in tonight on the staffing area. As an immediate step I call on the Minister to reduce the retention figure from 28 to 25 pupils. That means, in effect, that the two-teacher school, which has numbers down to 25, will retain those two teachers, and at the stage when it becomes a one-teacher school if the numbers continue to fall at least it should be below the 25 figure. It should be 24 or fewer and at least there will be some possibility of teachers coping with those levels of enrolment.

It must be accepted that the task of teaching eight different curricular class programmes to 28 pupils is an impossibility, physically, intellectually and every other way for one teacher. It just cannot be done. Therefore, I ask the Minister to intervene at this point and help out. I should have said at the beginning that my professional colleague, Senator Mullooly asked for some time to speak on this matter. I ask that he be allowed five minutes at the end and perhaps the Chair would indicate to me when I have five minutes left?

Many I say before Senator Mullooly gets to his feet I have just got a note from the office of the Whip to say that I must go when the bell rings. I will not rush this because I can come back. I want to explain that I have been asked to do that.

Acting Chairman

The Senator has about ten minutes left.

I will take about three or four minutes more. I know that there are schools in Senator Mullooly's area he wishes to talk about. I had talks with people from the Clooncagh area outside Strokestown where they have their own difficulties.

I want to put some positive points on the record also. If we are talking about staffing, it is as well to mention it as a difficulty but I want to establish that it is simply a difficulty and that progress has been made. Under our wide-ranging and intensive discussions under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress we managed this year to put together the response to the need for staffing in our schools. The schedule we came up with, the first schedule to the programme, is the best schedule that has issued to primary schools for over a decade. There is no gainsaying that fact. It is the biggest improvement in the staffing figures for over ten years.

In the case of the two-teacher schools the improvement which we made on the appointment level by reducing the figure from 33 to 30 and also by ensuring that 29 was the maxmium class size means that any school with 29 pupils will get a second teacher. That is the biggest improvement that size of school has had for 25 years as far as I could check in the past couple of days. There is significant progress of my teaching organisation in those schools would accept that. I ask the Minister today to take it a little further.

We are also looking at a new schedule to take effect from September 1992 and we will be looking again at this area. We should have it as an objective to reduce the 28 retention figure to 25. Is it possible we could make some progress in this area in the context of disadvantage during the current year? I also ask the Minister to put on the record tonight a commitment regarding her position in these staffing negotiations for two-teacher schools in the course of next year's discussions. I ask her to respond as favourably and as positively as possible. I would like to give five minutes of my time to my colleague, Senator Mullooly.

I would like to thank my colleague, Senator O'Toole, for sharing his time with me. I want to support very strongly the case Senator O'Toole has made for the small schools. There is very little I can add to the case he has made. I know the problems of small schools having taught in a two-teacher schools for over 30 years. There are particular problems in small schools but there are also great advantages. Children who are educated in smaller schools, the one and two-teacher schools, are very mature at the end of their primary school education. They are far more mature than children who are educated throughout their primary education in a one class situation. The brighter children have the benefit of hearing what is going on in the senior classes as they move up through the school. They become familiar with the terms they will be using as they move into new classes and that is of great benefit to them.

In our recent debate on education I referred in particular to the problem of one-teacher schools and I made the very point Senator O'Toole made during the course of his contribution that the larger of the one-teacher schools should be designated as disadvantaged. I agree with Senator O'Toole that the teachers who teach in these one-teacher schools are doing great work. They work extremely hard and are very dedicated people, I would like to reiterate the tribute I paid to them in the debate on the education motion.

I agree wholeheartedly with Senator O'Toole that it would be of tremendous advantage if the retention figure could be reduced from 28 to 25. I know the Minister is sympathetic to that case. She has stated on a number of occasions that she agrees with us that a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio is probably the most progressive step that can be taken at any time in education in that the ideal is a one-to-one situation. We will never have that but no matter how few pupils a teacher is teaching there are always one or two who will need a little more individual attention than the others. The fewer pupils in the class the greater the degree of individual attention that can be given to the pupils who need it most.

I support the case made by Senator O'Toole. I am particularly familiar, as is the Minister, with the situation in Clooncagh, national school in my own parish and I realise the difficulties that exist there. I also realise how helpful the Minister has been in explaining the situation to the deputations who met her in relation to that school and the difficulties with which she was confronted. I thank Senator O'Toole and the Minister.

I thank both Senators for raising this matter. I must have met the deputation from Clooncagh about ten times. They have been most patient but most persistent also. When Senator O'Toole was speaking I was thinking of Goldsmith's poem "The Deserted Village":

Ill fares the land, to hast'ning ills a prey.

Where wealth accumulates, and men decay;

It described life going out of a village. The village school house——

And in the village schoolmaster whom he also wrote about——

——or school mistress now——

——who incidentally was an INTO member.

The village school and what it means to an area, often not even a village, is a sign of vibrancy. More than that, it is a sign of hope that there will be young people coming and going, learning their lessons and life about a place. When one goes to the west of Ireland one is often aware not only of the new schools that have been built but also of the older schools left in what seem very isolated places; the ghosts of the former pupils seem to hover over the area and one thinks what life must have been like when it was peopled with children. Of course, children are a sign of life. We will leave the post offices out of it tonight but to me the schools are the greatest sign of a community spirit no matter how small the schools. When I came into the Department I became slightly alarmed during the first and second year when I noticed a great spate of callers to my house on Saturdays who had been informed their schools were to be amalgamated and closed down and this was happening without me knowing about it. We got that sorted out and now if there is no wish from a community for such an amalgamation, we do not go ahead with it. At secondary level it is different. They need a range of subjects, they need science laboratories and all sorts of things you cannot have in a much smaller school particularly in the context of the curriculum.

The programme provides for a further improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio in the years 1992 to 1993. Talks will begin on that very early. I am very open to see that within those talks for the pupil-teacher ratio of 1992-93 we will have a specific item on the agenda for a reducation from the figures of 28 to 25.

Can we agree that we will actually do it?

That is another day's work. The Senator has asked me some questions and I will deal with them now. My position in regard to the one-teacher schools is that they should be retained as much as possible. The follow-on of that is to take a very close look at the tenor of those schools and how they can best do their business. If that shows there should be a reduction in the figure of 28, if that is where the difficulty — and it would appear to be — we would have to look at the implications and how we could remedy it. I suggest to the House that, as the matters for this coming September are already notified and allocated, they must be left for this year but in the autumn term will take a look at those schools.

I know that Senators O'Toole and Mullooly said about schools being disadvantaged is correct. Disadvantaged schools are now judged under particular criteria and under different headings and have teachers allocated on that basis. As both Senators acknowledged the pupils have a warm, intimate relationship with their teacher or teachers. There is interaction, in that hte desks are so close they are being inadvertently educated as they can hear what is going on. The close friendships made and the feeling of community involvement are very good and, in their own way, have great advantages.

There is also the downside in one-teacher schools with the range of ages from four years to 12 and the range of abilities within each age in one room. It is complex enough teaching a class with a range of abilities without dealing with all age groups with their differing range od ability. It must require extraordinary skills on the part of the teacher involved. There are also the worries if a child gests sick or anything happens while the child is at school and the teacher is the sole adult present. While it is nice to be mistress of your own emporium it is still a worrying situation and one that needs to be looked at more precisely than we have been doing with regard to the general pupil-teacher ratio.

I take the Senators' general points about the PTR, the panel and allocations. These go on their way as they have always done in a fairly regular fashion. It is for the good of everybody. To treat schools when they get down to those numbers and are faltering between two teachers and one teacher is making the exercise too scientific when it may mean closure of a school. Realistically, if numbers fall too low it is just not feasible to keep a school open but if we wish to retain community vibrancy I suggest there is a need to treat this issue in a particular way. I accept that both Senators have addressed this issue and appreciate the reduction already made, which was due to what the INTO put forward.

My position is that I am in general agreement with what Senator O'Toole has said. How could one not be? The suggestions are educationally sound. The schedule for this September has gone out but I suggest soon after that we look at that issue in particular way as distinct from the other staffing schedules which will be proceeding.

Will the Minister to positively disposed towards it?

Yes. I am positively disposed towards it. I feel that that issue could be looked at in the 28 to 25 pupil size. I smiled when Senator Mullooly said that one-to-one would be the most favourable. It would drive pupils and teachers daft. I would not like it all day long and I am sure the pupils would not like it. There would be no escaping that eagle eye.

We might try a pilot programme on that some time.

We might. They would be the most disadvantaged of all. I will be speaking to the Department along those lines and it will be taken as a topic in the talks which will be starting in the autumn on the schedule for the following year. It should not be treated in the overall but as a separate item.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 June 1991.

Top
Share