Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. The Order of Business for today is as follows: Item No. 1 until 6 p.m.; there will be a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., and we will take Motion 44 from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, I would like first to congratulate Senator Wright on his appointment as Leader of the House. In the short spell he has been Acting Leader he has shown qualities of great courtesy, innovation and a willingness to look at new ways of doing our business. I know he will continue in that way and I wish him every success as Leader of the House. I would like to ask him, as Leader of the House, to confirm as quickly as possible the changes which have been agreed by all groups and parties: the first phase of Seanad reform could be put into effect virtually immediately.
A number of items have been raised over the past number of weeks on which Senators would like to have a debate, namely, the future of broadcasting, the banking system and some other issues. Perhaps the Leader of the House might put in place some structure whereby these matters can be taken in a fairly orderly way. May I also congratulate Senator Eoin Ryan on his appointment as Government Chief Whip and assure him of our full co-operation.
Senator Upton.
I would like to point out that the Independent group is the second largest group on this side of the House.
My apologies.
I welcome the appointment of Senator Wright as Leader of the House and I wish him well. It is a job he will discharge effectively and efficiently, as he has always done in his previous role and in his role as Acting Leader of the House. I am glad to go on the record on that point. I have no doubt that there will be many differences of opinion during his period in office. Nevertheless, it is important that he should begin with our best wishes and with a guarantee of support and co-operation as far as that can be offered at any given time. Similarly, I congratulate Senator Eoin Ryan on his promotion and wish him well in the hazards of being Whip — not to let them off to funerals and weddings and to make sure he has them all in the House in time. Finally, may I also extend congratulations to my fellow townsman, Senator Fitzgerald, for holding his position despite all the changes around him.
One of the few who did.
As well as supporting Senator Manning's proposal, may I ask the Leader to slot in a period of time each week for the next number of weeks in order to deal with a number of outstanding issues on which there is general agreement that they should be dealt with? This has been discussed on the Order of Business time and time again. It should be done, and done efficiently. We should slot in some period of time on Thursday morning or Thursday afternoon or late on Wednesday night or whatever in order to deal with those matters and just get them off the Order Paper.
I would ask the Leader to put on the Order of Business for early discussion the Government's proposed Green Paper on Education. I think it is irresponsible, incompetent, no way to do business, and mismanagement on the past of the Government that we hear of their policies on education through leaks to the media. It is just not good enough. This is far too important an issue to have people going off at half cock, responding to stories and half stories. The Government now have a responsibility to clear the air on this matter and insist that the Green Paper be published and circulated to the people who will be taking decisions at the end of the day. They are the people in this House, in the other House and in the Department of Education. As far as I am concerned, this is not the way to do business. It reflects on Government and I ask that the matter be put on the agenda as early as possible.
I congratulate Senator Wright on his appointment and also congratulate Senators Ryan and Fitzgerald. While Senator Wright has been Acting Leader he has been very easy to deal with, he has been courteous and pleasant and I am especially pleased to see him getting the job on a permanent basis. I wish Senator Ryan well on his promotion and I am pleased to see that Senator Fitzgerald goes on and on and on as many other things seem to change.
It is about six months now since we had the O'Keeffe initiative on banking and I would like to ask the Leader of the House if we are any nearer to the debate on banking. I would also like to ask him when we are likely to have a debate on Item No.3 — Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Amendment) Bill, 1991. Certainly, there seems to be quite a number of our colleagues in the other House who are very anxious that that Bill would be taken in the near future. I would also like to ask the Leader what is the present position in relation to the proposed reform of the Seanad?
On behalf of the Progressive Democrats, I join with the other Members and wish Senator Wright every success and congratulate him on his appointment as Leader of the House. I also congratulate Senator Ryan and Senator Fitzgerald. The Leader has a clear opportunity now to bring in the reforms that are necessary and recognised as such in the House. He does not come with any baggage of institutionisation and he can bring a fresh approach to business. I ask him to pursue matters such as the introduction of legislation in this House. There is an opportunity for him to exercise his authority and leadership abilities for the benefit of the Seanad and I hope he will do that. I ask him to move as quickly as possible on the issue of the foreign affairs committee which we have been asking for the past two years. If he could be seen to deliver on that committee it would be a good start for him in his new position.
I join with other speakers in their good wishes to the three Senators. Laat year I had the privilege of spending time working on the Child Care Bill and proposing amendments, one of which was accepted. I now ask the Leader of the House to convey to the Minister for Health my concern and the concern of this side of the House about the alarming report today from the ISPCC in relation to child sexual abuse and, indeed, to general physical abuse. I am concerned that the Minister should back up what I believe to be an excellent Child Care Bill with the necessary finance to make it effective in dealing with child care abuse. I urge the Leader to convey that to the Minister. Indeed, if he feels it necessary, he should take the issue to the House again for further discussion so that we can give effect to the very fine principles in the Bill.
I join with the other speakers in extending congratulations to Senators Wright, Ryan and Fitzgerald. I would also ask the House to send their support and good wishes to the Taoiseach for his meeting this afternoon with the British Premier. I am delighted the Taoiseach has decided to put the North of Ireland and the relationship between Britain and Ireland at the top of the agenda. All of us would like to see a very successful meeting and it would be appropriate if we sent our support and good wishes to the Taoiseach.
I would like to join with other Senators in congratulating Senators Wright, Ryan and Fitzgerald on appointment to their new positions. It is good to see three young men appointed to these positions of authority. The fact that Senator Fitzgerald has survived in his position demonstrated that he is, indeed, universally popular around this House and the Oireachtas in general.
There are reports that the chairman of the Irish Wheel chair Association could not gain admittance yesterday to an Oireachtas Joint Committee. He is reported as saying he had to suffer the indignity of being lifted up several stairs to gain admittance to a meeting of the Oireachtas. The meeting took place in Kildare House.
It is not appropriate, Senator Haughey, but I am giving you a little leeway.
I appreciate that probably it is not appropriate, but it is very serious. I think all buildings associated with the work of Parliament should be fully accessable to disabled people and perhaps you might use your good offices to investigate that report.
Certainly.
I would like to extend my congratulations and good wishes to the three Senators — Senator Wright, Senator Ryan and to Senator Fitzgerald for retaining his position.
I would like to support what Senator O'Toole said in regard to the issue of the Green Paper and to ask that it be published and circulated for discussion in this House first. It has been promised to us for well over a year. It is sad we have to read about leaks, to hear all sorts of rumours of what is in the Green Paper, with lobbying going on already, when we are not even aware of what is in it.
Secondly, what has happened to the promise made by the Minister for Justice that he would have legislation before us in relation to matrimonial property and joint ownership of the family home? That is something that should be addressed immediately.
I would like to be associated with the congratulations to the Leader of the House. His promotion to that position today proves that a person can have genuine aspirations to Dáil Éireann and have a full and total commitment to the effective operation of the Upper House. Senator Wright manifests the efficiency and effectiveness with which this House can operate. I also extend my congratulations to Senator Ryan and Senator Fitzgerald. Speaking abut Senator Fitzgerald, may I say he reminds me a bit of Fungi, forever playful but always loyal.
I raise also the issue of the role of the Seanad. We have spent a number of days speaking on the role of the Seanad and the reform of the Seanad. We have been talking about a debate on the banks for well over 12 months. I did not realise it was being called the O'Keeffe initiative, but the banks are a major issue. If the reforms that are proposed for the Seanad were brought into effect it would get over a number of problems we are experiencing and would make it far easier for us to debate issues of common concern. I ask the Leader of the House to ensure that these reforms are brought to fruition at the earliest date possible.
May I also ask the Leader of the House if, in view of the Culliton report, the Seanad will be given an opportunity to have our say on the creation of employment. It is a matter of concern to everybody and the Seanad should be afforded an early oportunity to discuss it.
I, too, would like to congratulate Senators Wright, Ryan and Fitzgerald on their appointments. I am sure on his first day as Leader of the House. Senator Wright will have good news for me about a matter I raised here previously in relation to Nicky Kelly. He promised he would have a word with the Minister for Justice to see whether the Attorney General had come forward with recommendations.
I would like to support Senator O'Toole and Senator Jackman in relation to the request for a debate on the Green Paper on Education. We have had more leaks on this matter than virtually on any other issue in the past 12 months. Indeed, this Green Paper was supposed to have been published 12 months ago, the White Paper in the autumn and the legislation was intended to be enacted under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress by last Christmas. It would be valuable if we could have the Green Paper debated here in the House at an early date. I understand it is now intended to have it published next week.
Finally, in relation to the debate we have had on the role of the Seanad, could we get agreement urgently on the matters that were agreed by all speakers with a view to expediting business and arranging debates on a greater number of topical matters that are coming up on the Order of Business again and again? Matters of concern have been raised in the past couple of weeks in the context of unemployment, Northern Ireland, broadcasting and so on, we urgently need to debate them.
I would like to join in congratulation to Senator Wright, Senator Ryan and Senator Fitzgerald. They are all decent, honourable men, who are very courteous and efficient in dealing with the business of the House. I am sure that their appointment in two cases, and continuance in office in the third case, will enhance the operations of the House. I think these appointments are welcomed on all sides of the House.
I add my voice to that of Senator McGowan in sending best wishes to the Taoiseach on his meeting in London with the British Prime Minister. I welcome the fact that he had established such a good working relationship with John Major, when Mr. Major was Chancellor of the Exchequer and the present Taoiseach was Minister for Finance. It is a positive basis on which to begin. I ask the Leader of the House to fix an early date for a major debate on the North of Ireland. There have been a number of requests for such a debate. It is something that would be welcomed throughout the House.
I want to ask the Leader of the House if I can have some clear, specific information about the Government's plans for reform of the laws on homosexuality. He indicated there was a White Paper in the pipeline. I take it that means the Government's plans are shaping up. I would very much welcome a specific date. I do not intend to be obstructive, but it is three and a half years since the judgment of the European Court and I may have to move towards opposing the Order of Business if I do not rapidly get some specific and clear information with regard to a date.
I wish to extend my good wishes to Senator Wright on confirmation of his appointment as Leader of the House and I congratulate Senator Ryan on his appointment as Chief Whip. I am sure he will have all the enjoyment and satisfaction that office offers. Senator Fitzgerald is an experienced man in his job and I wish him success also.
I want to raise the following points with the Leader of the House. In relation to the Culliton report, I understood the Leader to indicate that time would be provided for a debate on the report. An indication was given some weeks ago, as far as I understand it. It is necessary to have such a debate particularly in view of the emphasis that is, rightly, being put on unemployment. It is important that this House would have an early opportunity to debate the report.
I had intended raising the matter of a discussion on the role of the banks and financial institutions. I am glad to say Senator O'Keeffe has come back on this subject. I had a feeling he had gone silent on the issue and I welcome his return to the matter. I support his call, because I think it is of very limited value to deal with the Culliton report, jobs or whatever, unless there is a critical examination of the role of the financial institutions and the banks. It is important that a debate on the banks is not subsumed in a discussion on the Culliton report. The performance of the financial institutions and what we require from them at this stage deserves to be examined on its own. Therefore, I request the Leader of the House to provide as soon as possible time for a debate on the role of financial institutions and a separate time for the Culliton report.
Some time before Christmas I asked for a debate on unemployment. The Leader kindly agreed and the House agreed to have a debate on it. Much time has passed since then. Unemployment has got worse. I ask the new Leader of the House for such a debate. I think we could couple that with the debate on the Culliton report on industrial policy and I ask the Leader to consider giving time at an early date for a discussion on these two very important topics.
The second point I want to make is the one that has been so eloquently made by Senator Howard already. We need an early debate on the banking system. We need a debate on the provision of credit, on money for start-up industry, which seems to be very slow in coming from banks. They are like a person who would give you an umbrella on a fine day but they want it back on a wet day. We have a chance of discussing it now that Senator O'Keeffe has reintroduced the subject and I urge the Leader to arrange for this debate as early as possible.
I wish my former opposite number every success in his new post. I thank him for the co-operation he gave me and Members on this side. I also wish Senators Ryan and Fitzgerald every good fortune and success in their posts. I would say to the Members opposite: respect your Whips and they will treat you fairly.
Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a déanamh leis an dtriúr sna poist nua atá acu. Ba mhaith liom a fhiafraí den Cheannaire cé comh luath is a bheidh díospóireacht againn ar an Culliton report mar tá sé fíor-thábhachtach do iarthar na hÉireann go speisialta, marmá chuirtear cuid de na moltaí atá sa Culliton report i ngníomh beidh an t-iarthar bánaithe. Tá sé sách bánaithe mar atá sé ach beidh sé imithe go hiomlán má chuirtear an tuarascáil sin i gcrích.
Arís fiafraím den Cheannaire cén t-am a chuirfear na Billí éagsúla a thagann os comhair an Tí seo ar fáil i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla de réir mar atá riachtanach faoin mBunreacht. Tuigim gur socraíodh anseo cúpla bliain ó shin go gcuirfí gluais ag deireadh na mBillí, is é sin go mbeadh cuid den fhoclaíocht le fáil i nGaeilge, ach níl an méid sin déanta tar éis dhá bhliain. Ní féidir liom leanúint ag plé le Billí nach dtuigim go hiomlán ó thaobh tearmaíochta de. Tá mé ag iarraidh, dá bhrí sin, go ndéanfar é nó, mar dúirt mé cheana, caithfidh mé rud éigin a dhéanamh faoi taobh amuigh den Teach seo.
Maraon le gach éinne eile, déanaim comhghairdeas leis an triúr faoi na jobanna nua atá acu. Tá súil agam nach gcuirfimid ar an taobh seo go romhór isteach orthu san obair a bheidh ar siúl acu.
I want a debate on what we do to 300,000 unemployed people. Every day I, and I suspect everybody else meet cases of blatant persecution of the unemployed by the Department of Social Welfare. Women of 30 years of age are being asked in Dublin why they are not living with their parents down the country and their right to the dole is questioned. There are people having their means test based on their parents' income when the parents live 60 miles away. The list is endless. I know what you are going to say, a Chathaoirligh, that I may not make a speech but, since my please fall on deaf ears I simply want to illustrate what is involved. I propose to speak on it on the Appropriation motion as will be appropriate, but I would like the rest of this House to have an opportunity to speak also. We talked about the unemployed about a year and a half ago. Members of this House spoke eloquently in the debate but it was ignored outside this House because apparently the unemployed are not news. I would like us to try yet again to make the unemployed newsworthy.
Like all of my colleagues, I think it is high time we debated the banking institutions in this House. It is a singular lack in the Culliton report that the banks or their role is barely mentioned. I am beginning to worry that, as we demolish sacred cows, we are liable to recycle them in new forms. I have a funny feeling that the Culliton report is becoming a substitute gospel of all that is right. It deserves the same critical scrutiny as all other sources. My own view is that it is severely defective in many areas and is ideologically loaded. I would like a chance to discuss the banks, their ineptitude, inefficiency and their persecution of small businesses in particular. I hope we have that debate soon.
I, too, would like to congratulate Senator Wright on his promotion as Leader of the House. I wish him well and assure him of our co-operation. I would also like to congratulate Senator Ryan on his promotion as Chief Whip and Senator Fitzgerald on his continued role as Assistant Whip.
I would like to ask the Leader when we can expect a meaningful debate on Northern Ireland. Unemployment has been discussed here previously. It is a matter of urgency and I would like to have an early debate on the topic.
The entire situation relative to the banks needs to be examined urgently and thoroughly. Apart from money availability and interest rates there are new dimensions in banks and lending institutions today. People may not be aware of handing charges of one sort or another. Many charges have been neatly and discreetly introduced by banks, for which they stand condemned.
Senator, you are making a speech. I would prefer if you would ask a question.
Finally, I would like to ask the Leader if the very important visit of the Taoiseach to the House may be expected soon.
I would like to congratulate Senator Wright on his promotion to the role of Leader of the House. He has impressed all sides of the House in his capacity as Acting Leader. I also wish good luck to Senators Ryan and Fitzgerald in their posts.
I agree with many of the speakers here today about the Culliton report. It should not be taken as the gospel of this country for the future. There is real need for an open debate on the report, particularly on the proposal to introduce regional councils and on their formation.
I would also like to ask the Leader of the House about the formation of a foreign affairs committee. This has been mentioned frequently. I ask him now to use his good offices and to call on the Taoiseach to ensure that Members of the Seanad will be involved in that committee if it is to be set up. It is all the more necessary now, as there are large numbers of homeless Irish people in England. The committee should be set up forthwith.
I would like to thank all those on the Opposition side of the House——
——and the Independents who are not necessarily the Opposition.
— those the far side of the House and my own colleagues on my own behalf and on behalf of Senator Ryan and Senator Fitzgerald. It is indeed an honour and privilege to have been appointed Leader of this House and I would like to thank the Taoiseach and my colleagues for their support. As Whip and Chief Whip I was committed to the efficient running of the House and I hope that will continue while I am Leader.
That brings us to the matter of reforms, to which I am committed. I hope some of the reforms we have mentioned at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will be part and parcel of the Seanad operations before the end of March. That would be in the interests of the House. On a personal note, to coin a phrase of the new Taoiseach, I would like to assure everyone that I will give it my best shot.
Senator Manning mentioned reform. I have already stated that we hope to see that take place shortly. We hope to have an opportunity in March to debate the issue of broadcasting. I am committed to a debate on the banks also. The type of issue raised on the far side of the floor and by my colleague, Senator O'Keeffe, and others, needs to be debated here.
With regard to the Green Paper on Education, I will certainly pass the Senators' comments to the relevant sources. Item 3 will be taken next week subject to the Whips. On the matter of child care, I would like to assure Senator O'Reilly that I will convey his comments to the Minister in question.
Several Senators today expressed good wishes to the Taoiseach and the Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Justice in their meeting today with Prime Minister Major. I am sure everyone in the country hopes that out of this meeting a start will be made to arrive at some solution that would alleviate the tragic circumstances people have to live with in the North of Ireland.
On the White Paper, I assure Senators that, in most speeches made by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, there is an absolute commitment to an early discussion of the White Paper. I cannot be more specific but I hope in time I will be able to come back on that. Senator Ó Foighil, mentioned a matter more appropriate to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I will have a chat about that.
Jobs, unemployment and the Culliton report were mentioned. In view of the debate initiated by Fine Gael and the Minister last night, it may well be that we should discuss job creation. If the Government are coming forward with the concept of a job forum and so on, it may well be that this House should contribute to the debate. I would like to see it as a positive debate, perhaps with Members giving their ideas as to how we would create jobs, not just looking back on where the problems may have originated. It may well be, subject to the Whips, that we would agree in the next few weeks to have such a debate, in which the ideas and wisdom of this House would be available to the Government.
Is the Order of Business agreed?
The Leader of the House has not replied——
I am sorry, Senator Costello, the Leader has replied.
Not to all the items.
Order of Business agreed to.