Since items 1 and 2 relate to the election of Leas-Chathaoirleach they will be debated together, both motions to be moved at the commencement of this debate.
Election of Leas-Chathaoirleach.
I move:
That Senator Liam Naughten be elected Leas-Chathaoirleach.
I have great pleasure in proposing Senator Naughten as Leas-Chathaoirleach. I appreciate the decision of both Government parties to continue the tradition of electing the Leas-Chathaoirleach from the Opposition benches. As I said last week, this House depends for its success on an element of good faith and co-operation and I view the decision of both Government parties as evidence of this and will respond accordingly.
In proposing Senator Naughten I am proposing an experienced, fair minded, tolerant and good humoured politician. He was a good chairman in the last session and his integrity as a chairman, and indeed in all matters, was accepted by all sides. He will continue to bring distinction to the office of Leas-Chathaoirleach and I commend him to the House with enthusiasm.
I second Senator Naughten for the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach. As outgoing Leas-Chathaoirleach he showed an ability to administer the Standing Orders of this House fairly and firmly to all Members. He has shown equal competence to represent the Seanad on various delegations outside this country. He is a man of tremendous experience in public life.
Each Senator must strive to make the Seanad more relevant. Goodwill and flexibility are required between Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach, now as always, to enable the House to respond to national developments at once.
It is in the best interests of this House that Senator Naughten is elected Leas-Chathaoirleach of Seanad Éireann.
I move:
That Senator Mary Henry be elected Leas-Chathaoirleach.
Like Senator Manning I welcome the continuance of the tradition that the Leas-Chathaoirleach should be chosen from this side of the House, not necessarily from what is generally termed "the Opposition".
The five Independent University Senators who regard themselves as "Independent" take that freedom seriously; from time to time, as a matter of individual conscience, we vote with the Government. In urging that the Leas-Chathaoirleach be chosen from among the Independent University Members, I do not imply that we consider ourselves as Opposition.
It is important that we have something more than tokenism with regard to the position of women in this country. I raised on the Order of Business the question of the Second Report of the Commission on the Status of Women. The person I am proposing today has had an honourable record in this regard. It is notable that the named officers of both Houses are all male party members. I have the honour and the pleasure to propose for the office of Leas-Chathaoirleach a distinguished female independent representative of the constituency of Dublin University, Senator Henry.
It is important that the Leas-Chathaoirleach should on this occasion be independent, a woman and of the international distinction of Dr. Henry. Her record needs no great fanfare from me. She was a rival of mine in the recent election, and it did not gladden my heart when one of the members of the gymnasium I attend said, "That is a wonderful woman, she got 15 major prizes in the university". I was flattened by that and when I read her manifesto I realised that her 15 major prizes included the first non-foundation scholarship in the school of medicine. This scholarship is a very important honour conferred on an undergraduate; one must achieve first place among the best in one's year in a special examination. "Non-foundation" refers to the fact that she was a woman. Under the statutes of the college women were not allowed to be admitted to the foundation of the college but the honour was conferred as a non-foundation. This is an historic achievement.
With regard to her capacity to chair, I acknowledge that she is a new Member. She has shown, however, that she is well able to contribute, as she did upon her first day and I understand that she intends contributing on the National Stud (Amendment) Bill, 1993, this afternoon. She has chaired a variety of important national and international committees including the overseas committee of the Irish Red Cross. She is also a member of the National Women's Talent Bank, which we should bear in mind in this House, and was a founder member of the Women's Political Association. What better recommendation of qualifications could we have than this abbreviated summary of the distinctions of my colleague and friend, Senator Henry.
Senator Henry will continue the honourable tradition of the independent benches of fluent Irish speakers. In the last House as the Cathaoirleach will recall after certain re-arrangements of the university representation — I will not detail them further — we became the only all-Irish speaking section. Senator Henry is a distinguished holder of the gold Fáinne, although she did indicate that she felt it might need polishing, which I am sure she will give it. It is my pleasure to propose Senator Henry as Leas-Chathaoirleach.
I attempted, after the last election, to propose as Leas-Chathaoirleach my distinguished colleague, Senator Murphy, who exercised his option to withdraw at the last moment and said that he was not in favour of empty political gestures. I do not regard this position as an empty political gesture. It is most important for democracy that there should be a contest, even though the outcome of this vote is inevitable because of cosy party arrangements. We should ensure that somebody is really elected rather than simply carried in by popular acclaim.
It is particularly important that we should face all the political parties with the option of giving some form of substance to their often-mouthed assents to equality for women, to equal representation, to making sure that women are included on State boards and so on. Here is a perfect opportunity of exercising their vote in order to implement all they speak about so glowingly in party manifestos. I urge Senators in the spirit of independence to break ranks, and I address myself in particular to the Taoiseach's nominees who have the right to exercise the vote any way they please. This has happened in the past on one or two occasions and I urge them strongly to vote for Senator Henry.
On behalf of the Progressive Democrats it gives me great pleasure to second the nomination of Senator Henry. She is very capable and committed person who would carry out the duties of Leas-Chathaoirleach with great distinction. Our party favours the representation of women at every level in the Oireachtas. A precedent was set with the election of an excellent Cathaoirleach, Mrs. Tras Honan. Unfortunately, she was not re-elected and will be sadly missed in this House. This Government as Senator Norris said say they are committed in their Programme for Government to equality and have, for the first time, appointed a Minister for Equality.
I ask the Government benches to show that they are so committed by supporting Senator Henry's nomination today.
On the issue of nominations for Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad both candidates are equally good candidates. I have not experienced Senator Naughten chairing the Seanad in the past because I am a new Member of this House as are a substantial number of Senators, whom, I hope, will revitalise the Seanad and change the image to a great extent. On this occasion I will be supporting the nomination of Senator Henry for the reason stated by other speakers. We are aware of the great impact made in recent years by mná na hÉireann and the great leadership they have given. The Seanad should avail of this opportunity to show its recognition of that by supporting the nomination of Senator Henry.
That would have dition in this House that the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach has gone to an member of the Opposition. Our party's view is that this has a positive effect on the transaction of the business of the Seanad. It promotes a co-operative and constructive approach and we will be adhering to that tradition, as has been said already by Senator Manning. We have no intention of taking the position simply because we might have the political muscle in the Government to do so. The Opposition has presented us with two admirable candidates in Senator Naughten and Senator Henry.
A rotating Leas-Chathoirleach.
There might be a certain high spirited mischief behind the proposals to nominate Senator Henry in so far as the Fine Gael Party is in the stronger numerical position on the Opposition benches.
Senator Henry has a very fine record of radical campaigning on progressive issues. I have also battled on many of those issues, and would agree with her on many of them. She would probably have a better chance to battle on those issues in future from the floor of the House than from the impartial position of the Chair. I am sure she will contribute in a positive way in this House, whether she is elected to the Chair. Our party will not be voting on the issue; we will be leaving it to the Opposition benches to make the decision. They are both fine candidates.
May I answer the suggestion that in not voting today we may, in some way, not be supporting women in positions of power? In my party I have been chosen as Leader in the Seanad and I do not think we can be accused of not taking a stand in promoting women to positions of power in this House.
If the Independents, Democratic Left and Progressive Democrat Members were serious in having a women elected to the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach, perhaps the very able and experienced member of Fine Gael, Senator Taylor-Quinn, might have been a unanimous choice of the Opposition.
Break with tradition for once.
That would have ensured that a women would have been elected to the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach.
The people are a bit tired of tradition in politics.
Senator Norris has acknowledged that, as the figures stand, the outcome of the vote is almost inevitable, and there will not be a women in the Chair. Our position in the Labour Party is that we will not be contesting the position of Leas-Chathoirleach because we believe it is better for this House that the position should go to a member of the Opposition.
I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that Senator Norris is in any way mischievous.
We will leave that suggestion to be made by you, a Chathaoirligh.
I think Senator Henry would make an excellent Leas-Chathaoirleach. I have come to know her in the past week but all I have heard and read of her suggests that she would do an excellent job.
While I would welcome a woman in the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach, I do not agree with the idea of having a contest for the position. I support the tradition, that this House has had for many years, of having the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the Cathaoirleach shared between the Government and what appears to be the main non-Government party. That tradition reflects the kind of co-operative approach I would like to see built on in our future deliberations. I would not like to see that eroded in any way. I look on that tradition not as a cosy arrangement, as has sometimes been suggested, between the parties, but as a very useful symbol, a message to send to the outside world that the Seanad is a different kind of place and, with its own way of doing things, it is a small bridge that crosses the gulf in our deliberations.
I am not in agreement with my colleagues on this matter. I am making the point publicly because I want to lay down a very clear marker about how I see the grouping of Independent Senators. The grouping is, in my opinion, a technical matter and one which we require to have the right to debate in order. However, just as Independent Senators are independent of political parties, we are also independent of each other. It is important that we stay that way if we are to remain Independent. It is appropriate for party members to be bound by the Whip and they should be bound by the will of the majority in their party, but for Independent members to follow that approach however, would be a travesty of the word "independence".
Absolutely.
Therefore, I will speak for myself; I will not accept that somebody else should speak for me and I intend to do that in future. On this occasion I will support the candidate of the main non-Government party, and I do so with pleasure.
It is important to put on the record that the motives of various groupings in putting forward their various policies are subject to tests from time to time. What we are doing today is far from being high spirited mischievousness. It is to put on the record of the House where Members of this House stand on the very simple issue of choice between a man and a woman for the job we are discussing. It is as simple and as uncomplicated as that.
Rubbish.
That is false.
We are described as equal candidates.
Senator O'Toole, without interruption.
The second issue I would like to put on the record is that I was moved by the fine speeches in the other House on the motion to elect the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I felt it was important to listen to those words and to act on them.
It is also important to create within a democracy a sense of choice. That sense of choice is being offered today. Supporting the candidacy of Senator Henry in no way reflects on the exceptional chairing by the outgoing Leas-Chathaoirleach who is being proposed now by the Fine Gael Party. He would see that point better than most. It is important that the record be kept and on the return of all the staff, to normal working I look forward to a written record this day week. I urge my colleagues on all sides of the House to give their full support to Senator Henry.
I had not intended speaking on this matter but I would not wish that my vote be characterised as sexist in any way. We have two proposed candidates, Senator Naughten and Senator Henry, each excellent in their own right. The issues as to who should be Leas-Chathaoirleach should not be dealt with in terms of gender. It would, for example, be convenient for members of my party to also abstain on the vote and let the opposite side of the House decide this matter between them. Perhaps it would be better if the combined Opposition decided among themselves who should be Leas-Chathaoirleach. It is important for that position to be filled from the opposite side of the House.
The issue I would consider when making my decision is not one of gender, but of experience. I have no doubt about the extraordinary capacity of Senator Henry and her great academic achievements. If this were an issue to be decided on the basis of academic achievements there is no doubt where the vote would go. It is a valid point to make that the Chair requires considerable experience in the operations and may I say, the idiosyncrasies of this House. Experience must play a role here if progress is to be made.
Senator Norris, whom I would never describe as mischevious suggested that we could have a rotating Leas-Chathaoirleach. Perhaps that would be worth considering in the future. It is a novel suggestion and I am sure it is also a serious one. I hope Senator O'Toole's suggestion that we should simply make this decision as a gesture is not serious. I do not believe this has any merit. The position is an important one. We should weigh the merits of both excellent candidates and reach a decision on the basis of objective criteria, and not simply on the basis of a gesture.
It was not my intention to speak this morning and I am reluctant to do so because of lack of experience of this House. In spite of the fact that I have served on Dublin County Council since 1985, I find that lack of experience in this House inhibits me from participating to a greater degree and I imagine the other new Senators share this feeling.
I reject totally and I find myself angered by this current wave of feminism. I do not think there is any sincerity in it and I also reject the suggestion that a person should be elected because of their gender. That is insulting.
You are not in a position to judge someone's sincerity.
No Member of this House or indeed of the other House is elected because of their gender. I believe Senator Norris proposed Senator Henry because of her ability and record. It is insulting for Senator O'Toole to suggest that this House should make a decision on a position as important as Leas-Chathaoirleach on the basis of gender. I find that gender is frequently used as a weapon in a political war and I ask my male colleagues to desist from this practice. We want to be respected and treated as able and capable politicians. I, for one, do not intend being used in this House as a woman politician.
The question is: "That Senator Liam Naughten be elected Leas-Chathaoirleach."
Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 6.
Tá
- Belton, Louis J.
- Burke, Paddy.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Cregan, Denis (Dino).
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Neville, Daniel.
- Quinn, Fergal.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Howard, Michael.
- McDonagh, Jarlath.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Wilson, Gordon.
Níl
- Dardis, John.
- Henry, Mary.
- Honan, Cathy.
- Norris, David.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Sherlock, Joe.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Cosgrave and Neville; Níl, Senators Norris and Honan.
Question declared carried.
I congratulate Senator Naughten on his election. He has been a splendid Leas-Chathaoirleach. I assure the House my candidature was no token or empty gesture nor was my name put forward by Senator Norris and Senator Honan in a mischievous way. The political parties have made strong points, and the Programme for Government stressed equality for women was to be extremely important in this Government. When I see the dispute in the House, my worry is that the instructions may not have got through to all the party leaders. I am extremely grateful to those who voted for me and look forward to sitting in the House with the Leas-Chathaoirleach.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I thank my proposer and seconder and the Members of the Seanad who supported my re-election as Leas-Chathaoirleach. I thank the Members for their courtesy and co-operation in the past and I look forward to working with you, Sir, and with all the Members in the years ahead. It is my intention to carry out my duties as Leas-Chathaoirleach in co-operation with you and to be fair to all Members.
I extend my heartiest congratulations on your re-election. You have been an excellent Cathaoirleach for the past 12 months and I look forward to working with you during the life of the Seanad.
Senator Henry would undoubtedly have made an excellent Leas-Chathaoirleach but I am sure she will have an opportunity at a later stage. I again thank the Members and I look forward to working with you in the continued reform of the Seanad in the years ahead.
Now we have exercised our democratic right, I congratulate Senator Naughten on his election. In the previous Seanad he was a very good and impartial Leas-Chathaoirleach and he brings experience to the office which I am sure will be of value. I assure him he will have our co-operation and support during his term of office.