It is proposed to take Items Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9. I propose that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, Items Nos. 1, 2 and 3 will be decided without debate. The proceedings on the Second and remaining Stages of Item 4, if not previously concluded, will be brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m. by putting one question from the Chair, which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Government. Item No. 9 will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. I do not think that Item No. 4 will need a timeframe but to enable us to keep to the Order of Business I have done so.
Order of Business.
I am sorry the Leader of the House mentioned the need for a guillotine. It will not be necessary and, as a matter of principle, we should not begin this session by having allocation of time motions like that. I know that at least one member of my group would like to say a few words on Item No. 3. The order for winter time is more than just a casual matter and I ask that a few minutes be set aside for a brief discussion on Item No. 3.
I raised the possibility of a major debate on Northern Ireland last week. I understand the Tánaiste is to make a major statement on Friday on this subject. However, major discussions of such matters should take place in the Houses of the Oireachtas when they are in session. If the Tánaiste cannot be present in the House this week, we should have a full debate on Northern Ireland, at the earliest opportunity, as there is a clear demand for such a debate from both sides of the House.
I ask the Leader of the House to make time available for a discussion on the issues and the ramifications of the Greencore question. It raises very serious questions which are of concern to Members. We are prepared to sit after 8 p.m. for a hour or two for such a debate, or to have it taken earlier if necessary.
I support the point made by Senator Manning. There is no agreement between the Whips that Item No. 3 be taken without debate. I am not suggesting there should be a long debate, but certainly one Member of our group has indicated a wish to speak on the matter. If Senators want to make a brief comment on it they should be allowed to do so. That has been the tradition previously. This item comes up every year and checking the Official Record will show that it has been discussed.
Last week, I asked the Leader of the House that Members be informed as soon as possible of the items of legislation to be initiated in this House. I regret that has not been done. It is important that we have some movement on that. It does not need to be a complete and comprehensive list, but we need to have some information on the matter.
I ask the Leader of the House what is the status of those Bills which were lost in the interregnum, with the fall of the last Dáil. A number of items of legislation had been partially dealt with in the Dáil at that time. Normally, under Standing Orders they can be brought back to either House at Second, Third or Fourth Stages. One of the courts Bills made provision to allow the State to appeal against light sentences. I do not want to make political capital out of the appalling case we have all read about, but I ask that that legislation be reintroduced to allow the State to appeal against such light sentences. I also request that the problems regarding legislation on women's rights and domestic violence be a subject for debate. Again, I do not want to make political capital out of a very sensitive issue which has upset everybody on all sides of the House but time should be made available for a debate on this matter.
I ask the Leader of the House when, rather than if, it is proposed to have a debate on the disposal of 30.4 per cent of Greencore. Will the Leader clarify in this House, rather than on the airwaves or in the newspapers, that the quota which is a national quota——
The Senator is making a speech.
No, it is still a question. I ask the Leader to establish that the quota will be secure and that the so-called "golden share" will also be secure, because it is a matter of significant national importance.
I ask the Leader of the House if we will have an opportunity to reflect the nation's views on the Kilkenny rape case, notwithstanding that I have it down as a matter of concern for this evening. The House should have an opportunity to reflect the concerned reaction of the nation.
I also ask the Leader of the House if he would give time either tomorrow or next week to debate Item No. 10 on the Order of Business, the Report of the Sixth Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies on Bord na gCon. This was promised before the break up of the last House. I had the support of Senator Lanigan for that debate and I am sure I will have the support of Senator Roche.
Senators Neville and O'Toole have already mentioned the Kilkenny rape and incest victim. In view of the state of the law, which protects the the offender rather than the victim, I would welcome a debate on the issue.
I would like to raise the same issue and I endorse the point made by Senator O'Toole. This is not an issue for political capital but one that has raised concern across the community. It is imperative that legislation allowing for the renew of sentences is introduced at the earliest possible stage. I ask the Leader of the House to ensure that it is brought forward. I would also ask that this House have the opportunity to discuss why in Irish law, incest seems to be treated as a less serious crime than rape.
We are having a speech now.
In addition to my horror at the Kilkenny case, I would like to express my personal horror at the judgment given yesterday and reported in today's papers. I think we should have the opportunity——
Could I make the point, Senator Roche, that the Judiciary is independent of this House.
I accept the independence of the Judiciary but when judges act like asses I cannot understand why we cannot comment on it. The suggestion that people from a nomadic or particular group in the community should be treated differently in the case of sentencing for rape appals me.
I made a ruling, Senator Roche, and you have breached it somewhat. I made the point very clearly that the Judiciary is totally independent of this House. Judgments of a jury constituted court cannot be the subject of review or discussion in this House.
I want to make the point that the issue of sentencing should be brought forward at the earliest possible date.
The sale of the State's share in Greencore has caused great public concern. I support the request for a debate on the matter. A debate is being allowed in the Dáil at 4 p.m. and in view of the fact that we want to show people that the Seanad discussion is relevant when such matters arise, I appeal for a debate on the issue tomorrow.
I also support the call for a debate on the Greencore issue. Last week and the week before the Leader of the House was asked when time would be made available for a debate on the economy. We do no see any listings on the Order Paper today for such a debate. I would appreciate if the Leader would inform us when he intends to make adequate time available for that debate. Decisions, such as the Greencore decision, are being made which affect all the issues that we would like to address in a debate on the economy.
I was delighted with your ruling on the matter I tried to raise regarding the demolition of the house in Capel Street. You said you could not take it due to a lack of Ministerial responsibility. I could not have put it better myself; that is precisely what it is, a total lack of Ministerial responsibility. I thank you for the happy phrase.
I presume you are not questioning my decision.
Not at all, I am saying what a wonderful gift for language you have. You expressed my own thoughts perfectly by talking of the lack of Ministerial responsibility.
With regard to the tragic case in Kilkenny I would like to add my voice to those who looked for a debate. I do not entirely agree that it is merely a question of sentencing policy because that, to a certain extent, is barring the door after the horse has bolted. We must look at the social welfare agencies and how this situation was allowed to drag on for so long with people not wishing to get involved.
We are having a debate.
That is all I have to say on that matter.
One of the papers laid before the House is a Report of the Special Committee on the Child Care Bill, 1988. The Child Care Bill, 1991 was passed by this House last July, yet I understand that the major provisions of that legislation are still not enacted due to what are called budgetary restraints. I am coming under pressure from constituents working in the area of child care who are concerned at this flouting of the democratic wish of Parliament. I wonder if the Leader of the House can get us an update on the progress in implementation of the Child Care Bill, 1991.
Can I ask the Leader of the House to give us an update on the question of the foreign affairs committee, to reassure the House that this will be a joint committee and if possible to give us some kind of time scale.
Finally, although it was not announced in this House, I welcome the fact that the Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn has indicated that she will bring the country into compliance with the judgment in the case I took in the European Court. May I ask the Leader to suggest respectfully to the Government that since much of the pressure came from all sides of this House, this would be an appropriate House in which to introduce any such proposed Government legislation. Can the Leader give us a view on that?
I join with my colleagues in seeking time from the Leader of the House for a debate, either tomorrow or today, on the Kilkenny rape and incest case. It is important that this House debate the issues arising from it, particularly in relation to social services, the circumstances surrounding the case and sentencing policies. Rather than castigate the Judiciary here, it is up to us to provide the guidelines and legislation by which they can act. It is important that this House debate those matters urgently.
I support the request for a debate on the Greencore issue on the grounds that the newspapers can speculate on who is selling what to who. This House should have an open discussion because there are innuendos and statements being made that are totally incorrect. It would be a useful exercise to have a discussion in the House on a very important matter such as the sale of shares in a State company. It would be appropriate for that discussion to take place in this House.
I join with those who are asking for a debate on the sentencing policy of judges in general and on the options open to judges in cases such as this.
This case is referred to as the Kilkenny case and it might appear to some people that Kilkenny is a place where people do not have contact with those in trouble. In 1985, the person involved in this case was brought before the Health Board by the social welfare officer and received help from the Health Board but it could not act until a specific complaint was made. When a specific complaint was made to the Gardai it was acted upon.
You are making a speech.
I am asking for a general debate on the matter. Once a complaint was made to the Garda in Kilkenny both the superintendent and the ban-garda involved treated the case with great sympathy.
You continue to make a speech.
I ask for a general debate here on the possibility of bringing in the Department of Justice, the Department of Social Welfare——
You have made your point. I call on the Leader to respond.
First, on Item No. 3, some time will be made available on that issue. With regard to Senator Manning's views on the Tánaiste's proposed speech later in the week, I am not aware of what is to be said. Since the first day of this session I have written to the Tánaiste's Office asking him to take on board the wish of this House to have an opportunity to discuss the situation in Northern Ireland. I await his reply.
In regard to Greencore which was mentioned by several Senators, and Senator Dardis in particular, I will try to arrange with the agreement of the Whips, that we will find time to have a debate on Greencore. I am confident that both issues raised — the golden share and the quota — are enshrined in law and will be safeguarded but hope we will have that debate tomorrow.
Senator O'Toole mentioned legislation and the recent court case has also been raised by many Senators. On the list I circulated, the first piece of legislation to be restored is the Criminal Justice Bill, 1992. I will convey the views of the House to the Minister for Health and the Minister for Justice. I hope that legislation will be back here as soon as possible.
The initial response to my request for legislation to be initiated in this House has been positive and while I am not able to give the House a full list today, I am confident that we will be extremely busy with new legislation in the coming weeks. I hope in the next couple of weeks to be able to give you a extensive list and a very positive response from the Ministers on the type of legislation they would like to initiate in this House.
Senator Neville asked about Item No. 10 on the Order Paper. That is a matter for the Whips to decide. Senator Norris asked about the child care legislation and the foreign affairs committee; I will get an update on the Child Care Bill, 1991 and I am confident I will have news about the foreign affairs committee soon. This will be an Oireachtas joint committee.
Will time be provided either today or tomorrow to discuss the Kilkenny case? I agree there is an element of the Criminal Justice Bill involved here but I believe, there is a very specific matter that needs to be dealt with in the House immediately, that is the terms of reference of the inquiry to be set up by the Minister for Health.
I thought you had a query. That is the only thing I would normally allow.
What I am saying is that there is an angle to this other than the criminal justice angle——
Have you a query to the Leader by way of explanation?
Would the Leader provide time today or tomorrow to discuss the matter?
I have already stated that I will convey the views of the House to both the Ministers for Health and Justice and I will respond to the Senator.
Order of Business agreed to.