Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Apr 1993

Vol. 135 No. 13

Order of Business.

Mr. Wright

It is proposed to take Items 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 19. Item 6, the Roads Bill, 1991, Second Stage, will be taken until 6 p.m. Item 19 will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Items 1, 2, 3 and 4 are orders based on the Joint Services Committee, the Joint Committee on the Irish Language, the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills and the Joint Committee on Standing Orders. Item 5 relates to the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. This is an expediency motion.

I would like to mention the retirement of two people who have given great service to this House in a friendly and courteous manner. Mr. Paddy Crean has been here for over 20 years and Mr. Paddy Cullagh has been here for over 30 years. We wish them well in their retirement.

Mr. Cosgrave

I echo the sentiments of the Leader of the House in relation to the long-serving and distinguished members of staff who have been of great service to Members of the Seanad and the Dáil.

At an early date, will the Leader of the House make time available for a debate or statements on primary education? The Roads Bill was passed in the Dáil last night. Bills should not be passed in one House and introduced in the other House the next day. Members should be allowed time to consider a Bill, unless there is a need for haste.

I am sure the Leader of the House welcomes the recent introduction and opening of Turf Club accounts. Perhaps a debate could be arranged on this matter.

Mr. O'Toole

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges has postponed this afternoon's meeting. The Leader of the House has given me an undertaking that the pressing matter of accommodation for the Independent Senators will not be delayed and that progress will be made over the next two days.

We wish to be associated with the good wishes to Mr. Paddy Cullagh. From a teacher's point of view he was always very popular with visiting school groups. Next September when there are a few extra all-Ireland tickets available, I hope they will not go in one direction irrespective of whether Tipperary is playing.

Independent Senators have been asking for the establishment of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. Senator Norris has raised this matter on every second Order of Business for the past two years. I would like to know when the Committe of Selection will be meeting in order to make the appointments to that committee.

Mr. Dardis

May I be associated with the good wishes to the members of staff who are retiring?

I am unhappy about Item 5 being taken without debate because there are several elements in the motion which are worthy of debate. I realise that it is an expediency motion and that there is a pressing need to establish this committee. However, it is not satisfactory that consideration by the joint committee or a sub-committee on political and security issues relating to Northern Ireland should be held in private session. That does not say much for open Government.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not relevant; I am sure the Leader will respond.

Mr. Dardis

With respect, it is relevant to the Order of Business as it is a matter worthy of debate in this House. I would like an undertaking from the Leader that he will give time for such a debate in the near future, otherwise, it will be necessary to oppose the Order of Business.

Mr. Magner

In view of the outrage expressed by the Seanad in relation to the Warrington bombings, it should be noted that today's memorial service for the victims, which will be attended by the President, will also be attended by a Member of this House, Senator Calnan. He is invited as chairman of Cork County Council who, I understand, have a twinning arrangement with Warrington. It is important that the House note that the President, who is a former distinguished Member of this House and a current Member are attending on behalf of the Irish people.

Mr. Reynolds

Could I ask Senator O'Sullivan through the Leader of the House if it is now official Labour Party policy that the British Government should notify their intention to withdraw from Northern Ireland?

An Cathaoirleach

It is not appropriate to ask questions of other Members. Senators should speak through the Chair to the Leader of the House.

Mr. Reynolds

To the Leader — excuse me for my ignorance.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think it is appropriate. You are talking about policy. I am concerned with the Order of Business for today.

Mr. Reynolds

We are talking about policy, a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry Senator Reynolds.

Mr. Reynolds

The Minister for Foreign Affairs is the representative of both Houses of the Oireachtas and of this country——

An Cathaoirleach

It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Reynolds

——to Northern Ireland and a Labour Party Member has stated that Labour Party policy is——

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a matter for the Order of Business. I ask you to accept my ruling.

Mr. Maloney

The Senator is not in the Dáil now.

Mr. Reynolds

I would like to know what is their policy.

An Cathaoirleach

You can query that on another date somewhere else.

Mr. Reynolds

How could I query it or have the matter raised?

An Cathaoirleach

Certainly not on the Order of Business today.

Mr. Enright

I ask the Leader if the Government intends to afford this House an opportunity to debate the attitude of the Government to the recent High Court decision on the use of angel dust? The High Court ruled that the relevant ministerial order is unconstitutional as it is not backed by the necessary legislation. In view of the serious effects this High Court decison has on certain orders and legislation affecting industry, agriculture and so on, the House should be afforded an opportunity to debate it.

An Cathaoirleach

You have asked the Leader to respond to your suggestion and I am sure he will. I am not allowing a debate or a discussion on it.

Mr. Enright

I intend to bow to your ruling. I do not intend expanding further but owing to the profound effects on agriculture I ask the Leader if he could outline the Government's attitude and tell us if they intend appealing the decision or introducing new legislation? What is their intention?

An Cathaoirleach

Again this is not a question time. We are on the Order of Business.

Mr. Sherlock

I join with the other speakers in wishing Paddy Cullagh well. Much reference has been made to him as a tipster for racing, and it could be said in racing parlance that Paddy Cullagh was a stayer having given 52 years service.

I oppose the Order of Business because of the proposal to decide Item 5 without debate. The motion features the phrase "the select committee shall" repeatedly. In these circumstances and because we have waited for a committee on foreign affairs for so long, it should not be introduced without debate.

Mr. Roche

I ask the Leader of the House if it would be possible at some stage in the near future to discuss the growing difficulties arising from the problem of public liability. The Law Reform Commission is examining the area but I am sure there are Members who share my view that some interim measure is necessary to deal with this problem. I suggest that the "no faults" arrangements which exist in other member states could be considered.

An Cathaoirleach

You are making a speech.

Mr. Roche

I am not making a speech. There was a question mark at the end of that sentence. I will phrase the following as a question. Would other Members also deprecate Senator Reynold's attempts to make political capital out of the Northern Ireland affair and out of the logic of Deputy Bree's excellent speech?

An Cathaoirleach

That is not on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Norris

I expect you are rather sorry you did not call me earlier before these unruly Members were given their heads. I have two matters to raise. I welcome the establishment of a foreign affairs committee and I hope this is done as speedily as possible. It would be useful if there were some provision for debate because there are matters about which questions could be raised. It was in this House that the Minister gave a firm commitment about the establishment of a foreign affairs committee and yet this House is treated with a certain amount of discrimination: the committee will comprise five Members from this House and 25 from the Dáil.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure the Leader will respond positively.

Mr. Norris

A number of us have concerns and would like to tease out some of the matters. If that is not the usual procedure then I suppose it will not be possible. In principle, I welcome the establishment of this committee and I am glad that we got the information today. Perhaps this could be followed up with some specific information — I am not doubting the Government's intentions— about a timetable for the introduction of a Bill reforming the law on homosexuality. I noticed in yesterday's newspaper that certain sections of the 1867 Act were activated in the Dublin courts in a case which involved sexual abuse. It may be that this was the only instrument available but it is worrying that despite the Government's protestations, sections of an impugned Act are still being activated without reform.

Mr. Farrelly

I ask the Leader of the House if he intends to allow some time for a discussion on the economy. We asked for this on a number of occasions in the past and no final decision has been made. There are many economic issues affecting businesses at present and I would appreciate if time would be given in the near future.

I support Senator Roche's request for discussion or new legislation in the area of public liability. If there is a backlog in the Dáil we should be given the opportunity to discuss it in the Seanad first. Many people are in serious difficulties and there are signs up in certain areas of the country about liability and people not being responsible.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure the Leader will respond.

Mr. Farrelly

I would like to be associated with the remarks about Paddy Cullagh. It is over 30 years since I first came in here with my father. Paddy was always courteous to the family of Members. I wish him well.

Ms. O'Sullivan

On behalf of myself and my Labour colleagues, I wish Paddy Crean and Paddy Cullagh well in their retirement. I regret Senator Reynolds chose to make political ground on the issue of Northern Ireland and I realise I am not to make a speech either.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

Order of Business, please.

Mr. Reynolds

A Chathaoirligh, I am looking for a response and if the Senator does not want to give one she should sit down.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we deal with the Order of Business?

Ms. O'Sullivan

We have already had a worthwhile discussion on Northern Ireland in the presence of the Tánaiste and I would like the tone of that discussion to continue. I assure the Senator that all Labour Deputies and Senators fully support the Tánaiste and our party policy on the North.

Mr. Kelleher

I am disappointed at the depths this debate has descended to in the past couple of minutes. As I said last week, the issue of Yugoslavia must be at the top of the agenda and I ask the Leader to allocate time for a discussion on the matter. Yugoslavia is less than three hours by plane from here and 15,000 people are, at present, being evacuated from their homes there. Mass graves have been found. I am not apportioning blame but this House must make its voice heard. I am a member of a Parliament of an independent country which is a member of the EC. I consider the EC's inactivity deplorable——

Mr. Norris

I agree. Well said.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is making a speech. I am sure the Leader will consider his request.

Mr. Kelleher

This Chamber's silence indicates an acceptance of what is happening and I call on the Leader to provide time for this discussion.

Mr. McGowan

Will the Leader of the House in the near future, provide time for a debate on the International Fund for Ireland. This fund is contributed to by Americans, Canadians and by international bodies but it has not received the recognition it deserves. This House should express its appreciation of the fund and recognise the valuable work being done by it.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure the Leader will take the request on board.

Mr. Naughten

I join the Leader of the House, the Leader of the Opposition and other Members in wishing Paddy Crean and Pat Cullagh good luck on their retirement.

I support Senator Enright's call for a special discussion on the difficulties regarding EC directives and the use of angel dust. I hope the Leader of the House will give time to discuss this problem and the future use of unnatural growth promoters.

Finally, I ask the Leader of the House to allocate time to discuss the implications for the eight regional health boards of the statement by the Minister for Health that he was reviewing the hospital charges which were so unjustly imposed six weeks ago. I am a member of a health board and if the charges are reduced the funding of health boards will be affected. I would like to know how the Government intends to deal with this situation.

Mr. Wright

I can tell Senator Cosgrave that there is no time limit to the debate on the Roads Bill, although that Bill was on the Order Paper of the other House before the last election and Members had a chance to read it. I expect the Bill to be debated for many weeks in the Seanad as it is important legislation and all Members will have an opportunity to comment on it. With regard to the Senator's request for a debate on the Irish Racing Board annual report, I welcome the report and I am sure the Whips will agree to a debate on it in the near future.

Senator Dardis, Senator Sherlock, Senator Norris, Senator O'Toole and others commented on the foreign affairs committee and I am pleased it has been well welcomed by the House. I assure the Senators that there will be a debate on the issue but not today. The proposed date for the debate is 28 April when the motion is returned from the Dáil. Senator O'Toole mentioned the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and I can assure him that will be dealt with through you, a Chathaoirligh and other members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Senator Enright and Senator Naughten raised the issue of angel dust and the implications of the High Court decision in a recent case. Some of those issues have been referred to the Supreme Court. The Cabinet approved the Animal Remedies Bill yesterday and it will be introduced after Easter.

Senator Roche mentioned concerns about public liability. The Whips will agree to a debate on that issue in the coming weeks. With regard to Senator Norris' query about legislation on homosexuality, my understanding is that the Government is committed to introducing the legislation before the summer. The Whips can agree a debate on the economy requested by Senator Farrelly. I am sure Senator Kelleher will have an opportunity tomorrow to discuss the situation in Yugoslavia in the debate on overseas aid.

Finally, Senator McGowan has suggested a debate on the International Fund for Ireland. That debate can be scheduled with the agreement of the Whips.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Order of Business agreed?

Mr. Cotter

I indicated I wished to speak.

An Cathaoirleach

I did not see the Senator. I am sorry about that.

Mr. Cotter

I assumed my name was down. May I make a point now?

An Cathaoirleach

No, I am sorry, the Leader has replied. We have a rule in this House that the discussion on the Order of Business concludes when the Leader replies. The Senator may speak first in the morning.

Order of Business agreed to.