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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 May 1993

Vol. 136 No. 7

Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications Messages (Regulation) Bill, 1992 [ Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil ] : Report and Final Stages.

This is a Seanad Bill which has been amended by the Dáil. In accordance with Standing Order 82, it is deemed to have passed its First, Second and Third Stages in the Seanad and is placed on the Order Paper for Report Stage. On the question "That the Bill be received for final consideration", the Minister may explain the purport of the amendments made by the Dáil and this is looked upon as the report of the Dáil amendments to the Seanad. The only matter, therefore, that may be discussed is the amendments made by the Dáil.

For the convenience of Senators I have arranged for the printing and circulation to them of those amendments.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

As you said, this Bill has been passed by the Dáil and the amendments which I am introducing today arise directly from the Dáil debate and from the previous Seanad debate. Amendment No. 1 will oblige the nominated officer in the Department of Justice — the person to whom the application is made in the first instance for an interception — to maintain a record of any oral authorisation given. While I do not accept that as the Bill originally stood there was any scope for abuse, nevertheless, the view was expressed during the Dáil debate that when the High Court judge who is entrusted to review the legislation is viewing various interceptions he might not find a record of any oral authorisation. I do not think there is scope for abuse in the Bill as originally drafted. Nevertheless, this amendment reinforces that assurance.

Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 can be explained together. Under the Bill as originally drafted the request for authorisation to the nominated officer of the Department of Justice had to be made, in the case of the Garda Síochána, by the Garda Commissioner, and, in the case of the Defence Forces, for military intelligence purposes, by an officer of the Defence Forces not below the rank of colonel. For the sake of uniformity it was decided to accept the Opposition amendment in the Dáil — changed slightly — to the effect that in the case of an application for an authorisation from the Defence Forces the application must issue from the Chief of Staff. I have used the terminology "Chief of Staff" rather than "Chief of Staff of the Permanent Defence Forces" because it is in line with the definition of Chief of Staff in the Defence Act of 1954.

I accepted amendment No. 4 on Committee Stage in the Dáil. The designated judge, the High Court judge who will review the legislation, was obliged under the legislation as originally drafted to report to the Taoiseach at least once every two years. The two year period was the maximum time that could elapse between each report. Despite this obligation to report at two yearly intervals there is provision in the relevant section for the designated judge to report, from time to time between the main reports, to the Minister for Justice and to the Taoiseach on any matter that may concern him. In view of the fact that there was no guarantee that two years would not elapse between each main report, I decided to reduce the period from two years to one year.

Amendments Nos. 5, 6 and 9 are technical amendments which arise from the change in the name of the Department as a result of the formation of the new Government and the creation of the Department of Tourism, Energy and Communications.

Amendment No. 7 is consequential on amendment No. 8 which arises from a point made by Deputy Gallagher of the Labour Party on Committee Stage in the Dáil. It concerns the release of metering information: the number of calls made, how long each call lasted, how many units were used and so on.

The Bill as originally drafted sought to ensure that if the Garda Síochána or the Defence Forces sought this information from Telecom, they would have to do so in accordance with the provisions of the section. To strengthen that provision I accepted a recommendation from Deputy Gallagher and included the requirement that if such a request is made in the case of the Garda Síochána, the garda who requests the information from Telecom must produce an authorisation signed by a Garda officer not below the rank of chief superintendent. In the case of military intelligence such a request to Telecom must be authorised and signed by an army officer not below the rank of colonel. That will not only strengthen the legislation but will also reassure the public that information about their telephone bills is not being released at the request of just anybody.

The amendments are the product of the cumulative wisdom of the Dáil and the Seanad and will improve the Bill. They will provide for more transparency, which is a fashionable word at present, and I commend them to the House.

I welcome the passing of the Bill and look forward to its early signature by the President. It is 12 months since the Bill was initiated in the Seanad and the legislation is welcome and long overdue.

I welcome amendment No. 1 as it removes the fear that oral authorisation may be abused for interception of postal packets and telecommunications. It provides that applications for formal oral authorisation will be made in the same way as those for written authorisation. Therefore, a record will be kept by the nominating officer of the oral authorisation. It helps to minimise the opportunities for abuse.

I welcome amendment No. 2 and I remind the Minister that I proposed this amendment in the Seanad on Committee Stage last June. In fact the Minister made a strong case that it should be an officer not below the rank of colonel rather than the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces as is now the case. I welcome the Minister's conversion to this point of view and he should also give credit for this amendment to the debate in the Seanad.

In fairness, the Minister made that point.

On mature reflection.

I welcome amendment No. 4 which was also debated in the Seanad. It requires the High Court judge to report at least once each year or after each year rather than after a two year period. I welcome the fact that the views of my party were taken into consideration and that the Minister has changed the reporting procedure. We believed it would improve the credibility of the Bill, especially in the earlier days of its operation. Amendment No. 8, which provides that a request by a garda to a person employed by Telecom to make a disclosure in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) (a) shall be in writing and signed by a garda not below the rank of chief superintendent, is also welcome.

The Bill has been improved, although not to the level we had hoped to achieve, on Committee Stage in the Seanad. We are glad that the Dáil accepted some of our proposals and we are pleased to support the amendments.

I welcome the Minister to the House. I share the view that the legislation has been improved by its passage through the Dáil. I have no objections to the amendments.

The main point of the legislation is that, while it is important that the State and the custodians of law and order should be able to appropriately investigate matters, that must be balanced against the citizen's rights to privacy and protection. There have been some regrettable incidents in the past and it is the desire of everyone that this legislation will prevent such incidents occurring again.

I have some technical questions which the Minister may be able to answer. There may be some questions that cannot be answered and if that is the case I will accept it. In relation to the amendment to section 8 and the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, could it be the case in the future that if we did not have a Department of Tourism, Transport and Communications, this section might not apply? What would be the situation if we only had a Department of Communications or a Department of Energy and Communications? I assume it would not alter the substance of the legislation, but I ask the question because it should be asked.

I have a question in respect of amendment No. 8 to section 13. As a principle, it is important that as few people as possible should be involved in these procedures, and that is why I would welcome the earlier amendment that the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces would be the appropriate person to issue authorisations. How many Garda officers at or above the level of chief superintendent are there in the country? How many Army officers ranking at or above the level of colonel are there in the country? Does the Minister have information on the numbers of people who would be empowered to sign authorisations under this legislation? I realise that question is obscure and that it is one to which the answer may not be readily available. I am sure only a small number of people would be involved.

I thank Senators for their contributions. In addition I would like to record my appreciation of the contributions made by Senators when we first debated this Bill almost exactly a year ago. I also acknowledge that some of the amendments I have just explained were first raised in this House. I refer in particular to amendments Nos. 2 and 3, concerning the role of the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces in applying for an authorisation for interception. The time scale for the submission of reports by the designated judge to the Taoiseach was also first raised and debated in this House. That I am now coming back here with these amendments in no way undermines the position of this House. On the contrary, it shows what can be achieved through an accumulation of argument in both Houses.

Other amendments were discussed in this House, and later in the Dáil, which, for a variety of reason, I was unable to accept. I know it is sometimes difficult for Senators to understand why their amendments cannot be accepted. However, I have tried in this Bill to be as accommodating as I could and I can give an assurance that many hours were spent examining amendments and consulting other Departments and semi-State bodies about them, to see if they could be accepted, or if we could instead introduce other amendments, either as a compromise or covering the same point. We now have a better Bill than the one introduced last May, and again I thank Senators for the part they played in ensuring that this was the case.

Senator Dardis raised a number of points. I have received advice to the effect that if the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications were changed, the functions of the existing Department of Transport, Energy and Communications would be transferred to the new Department. It would not require an amendment to legislation nor would it render the Bill inoperative. I do not have the information the Senator seeks in regard to the number of chief superintendents and colonels, but I can get it for him if he wishes. Amendment No. 8 deals only with the release of metering information; it does not deal with the release of content of telephone calls. It is a considerable improvement on the earlier situation, and the situation that existed at common law.

Until the introduction of this Bill, any member of the Garda could request metering information from any account on the basis that he or she was investigating a crime, and Telecom employees had a common law duty to supply that information. Under this Bill the garda will have to produce an authorisation, signed by an officer not below the rank of chief superintendent. The same situation applies to Army intelligence. Any soldier could say that he was a member of Army Intelligence and that he needed this information for the purposes of protecting the security of the State. Under this Bill he will have to produce an official authorisation, signed by a colonel. This authorisation will entitle a person involved to receive metering information only about how many calls were made over a period of time and long they lasted. The actual content of telephone communications is not available under this section.

Question put and agreed to.
Question: "That the Bill do now pass" put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 3.10 p.m. and resumed at 4 p.m.
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