Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 1993

Vol. 137 No. 4

Industrial Development Bill, 1993 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil]: Report and Final Stages.

This is a Seanad Bill which has been amended by the Dáil. In accordance with Standing Order 82, it is deemed to have passed its First, Second and Third Stages in the Seanad and is placed on the Order Paper for Report Stage. On the question "That the Bill be received for final consideration", the Minister may explain the purpose of the amendments made by the Dáil and this is looked upon as the report of the Dáil amendments to the Seanad. The only matter, therefore, that may be discussed is the amendments made by the Dáil.

For the convenience of Senators I have arranged for the printing and circulation to them of those amendments.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

Acting Chairman

As Members are aware, they may speak only once on this question.

I welcome the opportunity to return to the House to report on the amendments been made to the Bill since it was first debated here on 15 and 16 June. As Senators will recall, there was at that time a very full and open debate on the matters in the Bill. It was very gratifying that what was essentially an enabling Bill provoked such a wide-ranging and well informed debate on the future of industrial policy. I thank the Members of this House again for the positive spirit in which they approached the debate on the Bill.

A number of issues arose out of the Department's ongoing consultations with the industrial development agencies and the other Departments which have responsibilities in this area and the amendments before the House today are a result of that consultation. They are few in number but they are necessary in order to strengthen, refine and clarify the Bill in a number or areas.

The purpose of amendment No. 1 is to ensure that the existing IDA and Eolas legislation remains fully in force until the new bodies are established. Without this amendment the repeals contained in the Third Schedule would come into force as soon as the new Act was signed and this would deprive the IDA of all powers contained in the First Schedule to the Industrial Development Act, 1986. These include such matters as the composition and powers of the Authority, powers in relation to contracts and instruments and the production of an annual report and accounts. By tying the repeals to the establishment day, we are ensuring that there is a smooth transition between the new and old legislation. In fact, this is plain good housekeeping. It means there will be no gaps, no intervening period, when one wonders who is responsible for what or who produces what. There will be a smooth transition from the old to the new.

Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 4 and 5, relate to sections 7 and 8. They are to allow IDA (Ireland) and Forbairt to administer schemes which involved EC moneys coming from Central Fund direct to the agencies. A feature of the Structural Funds in recent years has been a growing number of Community initiatives which the EC Commission formulates and promulgates itself. Examples include Prisma, certification and training, and Retex, a programme to develop new industry in areas where traditional industries have been in decline. Forbairt and IDA (Ireland) will now be involved in administering these schemes but the funding for them will not come through their grants-in-aid.

Another development under the Structural Funds is the direct co-financing by the Commission of schemes involving a contribution from industry. An example of this is the "Measure 6" industry, research and development scheme under the Department's science and technology sub-programme. In this scheme, grants of up to 50 per cent are paid to companies undertaking product or process development projects. The company contributions is regarded by the EC Commission as matching funds for the purposes of recoupment and, as a result, there is no net cost to the Exchequer.

At present, this scheme is being operated in its pilot phase by a firm of external consultants. Under the next round of Structural Funds, however, the scheme will be administered by Forbairt and IDA (Ireland). The House will, no doubt, be aware the IDA's functions are very precisely specified in the existing Acts and these predate the new Structural Funds regulations. At present there is no provision which would allow the agencies to administer schemes such as those referred to above. The new function will provide this facility.

The inclusion of this new function will also provide a legislative basis to allow the Community contribution to the business innovation fund to be handled by Forbairt. This will allow the IDA to contribute to the seed capital fund operated by the Dublin Business Innovation Centre and will help Forbairt increase its shift from grants to equity as recommended by the Culliton report.

The purpose of amendment No. 6 is to include a reference to the SFADCo Act, 1970 as this delegates certain IDA grant-giving powers to SFADCo and thus needs to be referred to in the new legislation. The text of the relevant section of the 1970 Act is as follows: "4.— (1) ... the Authority may delegate to the Company some or all of such powers as the Authority may have to provide financial assistance to or in respect of an industrial undertaking ... and the Company may exercise any such powers so delegated".

Amendment No. 7 relates to section 12. The purpose of this section is to make Government approval mandatory for substantial capital grant packages in excess of £2.5 million. The types of grants covered by the limit are set out in section 34 of the Industrial Development Act, 1986. However, the grants to which the £2.5 million limit applies are not actually made under section 34 but under sections referred to in section 34 of the Act. This amendment clarifies the position. The relevant sections referred to in section 34 of the 1986 Act are as follows: section 21, fixed assets; section 22, fixed assets which are leased; section 23, reduction of interest on a loan raised to pay for fixed assets and section 24, loan guarantees for the purchase of fixed assets.

The next section which was amended in the Dáil was section 17 which deals with stamp duty. Amendment No. 8 corrects a typographical error which was only discovered after the Bill had been passed by this House. The relevant section is in the Finance Act, 1895 and not 1985 as was originally stated in the Bill. Amendment No. 9 amends the First Schedule. This amendment relates to disclosure of interest and has been moved to strengthen the provisions of the section by covering not just interests in industrial undertakings but all business undertakings. The second Schedule refers to staff.

Amendment No. 10 was moved to satisfy the detailed requirements of the superannuation section in the Department of Finance. Essentially, the objective of the amendment is to ensure that Forfás has the power to prepare and submit new schemes of superannuation, that there is a clear and unequivocal statement that the provisions in the existing legislation governing the superannuation schemes currently in operation — and indeed any new schemes made by Forfás — remain fully in force and that Forfás may amend or revoke any schemes which are carried over from the dissolved agencies. Of course, this would only be done if a new consolidated scheme were being put in place but it has the right to do so.

Amendment No. 11 relates to the Third Schedule. This is related to the previous amendment and provides for the retention of those elements of the superannuation provisions in the 1986 Act which it had previously been intended to repeal. The repeals were originally proposed when the relevant sections were being restated in the new Act. By and large, that is a factual reporting of the amendments — mainly technical in nature — which came through the Dáil. I think the amendments add clarity and sort out matters which were raised in the House.

I have no objection to the amendments which were made in the other House, except to say the following. We have now the new Industrial Development Bill, 1993, and I would like to think — although I know, unfortunately, it is not the case — that this would provide answers to the real problems and the people who are unemployed.

The Bill was initiated in the Seanad and we discussed amendments but there are new headings in the Bill which give a number of people the opportunity to work under a new department whether it be Forfás or IDA (Ireland).

People must be reassured and encouraged to invest in and start up new businesses. The people I have been speaking with over the last number of weeks do not seem to think the confidence is there. I do not believe that changing the headings is going to improve that position greatly unless the county enterprise boards are given the powers and finance to help small businesses which previously had not been in a position to receive assistance to provide jobs locally. There is an overall acceptance that real jobs can be created in small industries.

In finalising the Report Stage of this Bill and accepting the amendments from the other House, there is a crying need to get rid of the red tape but I am not convinced that the new proposals will do that. We were given a commitment that we will have the opportunity to review progress. I would like to think we will not have to wait three years to do that but that we will have the opportunity to do so within one year.

The amendment which relates to EC funds is welcome, particularly the change from a system of grants to one of equity. A point made many times in the past was that we had a system of grants being given to companies. If a company did not succeed, the money was lost but with an equity system, there is some return for the State and the money can be reinvested in other industries. I support the shift from an almost total reliance on grants to the system where the State puts in equity and gets something back from successful companies.

I would also like to comment on the amendment dealing with the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. I am pleased to see that this has been specifically included because in the region from which I come, we consider that the regional policies developed through the Shannon Free Airport Development Company have been very successful. The policies, in many ways, set an example of regionalism in this country at a time when the concept of regional development was in its infancy.

I am satisfied overall that this is a practical response to the need to streamline the organisation of industrial development through the agencies of Forfás, Forbairt, IDA (Ireland) and the county development boards. The role of the county enterprise officer will be crucial in this area and in directing industries to the agency which is relevant to their size and needs. There is obviously a connection between the roles of the various agencies and the umbrella role of Forfás will be crucial in ensuring that the area operates efficiently. I welcome the fact that there will be constant monitoring to ensure the operation is effective.

I am glad the Bill was initiated in this House and I also welcome the Report Stage amendments.

I would like to thank the Minister of State for clarifying the amendments. I was confused before I came in, but her speech has clarified matters for me. However, I am somewhat bemused by the number of agencies we now have. I hope I am not particularly dense but I find their connection rather difficult to understand. I am glad Senator O'Sullivan thinks it is streamlining the procedure. I hope it is, and I hope that the relationships between the agencies, as well as the agencies themselves, are carefully monitored because I would hate to think that the main activity was within these agencies, rather than creating employment. I agree with previous speakers that monitoring the situation is essential.

I would like to join with my collegues in welcoming the detailed and comprehensive analysis the Minister of State has given to us. The amendments will significantly improve the Bill. When it was introduced here I expressed reservations, and Senator Henry has also pointed this out, in relation to the precise role of the agencies and the risk of confusion arising from increased agencies and their interrelationship. My enthusiasm for this Bill is to say the least, limited for that reason. I endorse its purpose but it will be seen in time that the fewer agencies we have, tightly controlled by the responsible Ministers — and the Minister of State herself was one such Minister — the better we are guaranteed to have an effective support system.

Now that we are talking, in terms of the disbursement of EC Structural Funds — and there seems to be some doubt at this point as to the extent of the funding which we will receive but I will reserve anything I wish to say on that matter for a later date — the role of the agencies will become more important. I have an instinctive belief that what the Minister for State has persuasively presented to us does not have her wholehearted enthusiastic endorsement either. I had the privilege of serving with her in Government and I know her precise and direct effectiveness.

I belong to the school that says that Ministers have responsibility and that agencies are answerable to Ministers. There should be no doubt as to which Minister is responsible. In some cases here, two different Departments and two different Ministers will be supervising or directing an agency. That said, I welcome the amendments and the comprehensive explanation which the Minister of State has given. I hope my apprehensions about this Bill are not proved correct and that we have a better result than I anticipate.

I wish to reply briefly and to thank Senators for their contributions. Senator Farrelly questioned whether this Bill would change matters and queried whether there would be sufficient finance for the county enterprise partnership boards. With regard to his reservations about the Bill itself, I think that the clear focus given to each of the agencies, Forbairt for indigenous industry and IDA (Ireland) for mobile investment and multinationals, will give each the chance to design a plan of action. I hope that will happen following the break-up of the conglomerate IDA into the two agencies.

The Minister, Deputy Quinn, and I have spoken in this House about the people who contributed to the Culliton report and the economic writers from whom the ideas were drawn. We referred to Richard Pascale who wrote Managing on the Edge, which is about business and the “split and fit” axiom. An agency which is allowed to continue in its original format in many cases loses its original impetus, it loses its raison d'être. I am not trying to make the “split and fit” formula an umbrella for everything, but in many cases it can facilitate the adaptation that is necessary to meet changing circumstances in the economy and the developmental needs of industry, such as the break-up proposed in this Bill.

With regard to the county enterprise partnership boards, they have been allocated money in the Estimate and they will have the immediacy and intimacy with the people who seek their services which is not always possible with a regional organistion. We hear a lot about devolution. It seems sometimes that Members of the House speak about devolution only when we want to; when we do not want to talk about subsidiarity and devolution, we put the idea to one side. There is nothing more in keeping with the concept of subsidiarity or devolution than the country system of accountability. I think the county enterprise partnership boards will fit very neatly into the "split and fit" context I mentioned. I reassure Deputy Farelly that the county enterprise partnership boards——

I should have said Senator Farrelly. I am sure he will be a Deputy again. I hope that all the Senators will be Deputies, except Senator Henry who says she does not want to be.

Acting Chairman

I take it we will be back in Westmeath then?

We will talk about that on another day. I assure Senator Farrelly that he will find the county enterprise partnership boards responsive to the needs of people who have ideas about business and services in the county.

Senator O'Sullivan welcomed the move from grants to equity. It was proposed in the Culliton report, and endorsed by Moriarty, that there be a greater shift from grants to equity. The proposed objective was in the region of 50 per cent. We cannot go overboard about everything, as the Senator rightly observed, because equity suits some industries and not others. There is a general move towards equity, which is correct, because equity brings with it responsibilities and moves away from an over-reliance on grants. The Senator was glad to see SFADCo highlighted in the amendments which came through the Dáil, and she welcomed the monitoring system which we promised when we spoke here on the Bill; we said that if faults arose we would not be afraid to admit it and see what could be done in the Bill to correct them.

I wish to thank Senator Henry for her comments about clarifying matters. However, she professed she was confused about the streamlining. I think that large organisations, by their nature, grow in size and create within themselves a huge bureaucracy. Returning to the "split and fit" theory, I think it is good for an agency to examine its operations. This agency will now be split in two and IDA (Ireland) and Foirbairt will have clear objectives. The job of Forbairt is to encourage indigenous industry in every way possible, to link with the county enterprise partnership boards, to encourage creativity, to examine goods, manufacturing and services for which the county enterprise partnership boards will also have responsibility. The job of IDA (Ireland) is to sell Ireland as a base for industry, as a country with strong educational and training resources and as a country with a good environment in which industries can develop. Forfás, far from being a rival agency, will have a unifying effect and will co-ordinate the strands in the other agencies because there will be elements in each of the agencies which will require such co-ordination.

Senator O'Kennedy — whose opinions I respect — has a history of civic commitment and public service which, I hope, will continue in the other House. Indeed, I wish all the Members good look in that quest. The Senator takes the view that there should be as few agencies as possible and that agencies are no substitute for ministerial responsibility. I agree because there is no doubt that the buck must stop at the Minister's office. However, the Minister, Deputy Quinn, made it very clear when he addressed the Seanad on this issue that he would not abdicate responsibility for the agencies. He is not that type of person. He intends to keep control and, in common with the political and administrative personnel in the Department, he will have an interventionist role. For a time the word "intervention" was frowned on and it was considered wrong to be an interventionist. In fact, an interventionist was cast in the role of a busybody.

If the Minister recalls, I was not even allowed to interfere with Siúicre Éireann.

I remember quite clearly.

I was criticised for attempting to interfere with it.

The wheel has come round and intervention, in the correct sense, is strongly admired by Ministers. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, the Minister of State, Deputy Brennan, and I, in our respective areas of responsibility, have no intention of giving the agencies a free rein. I am sure this will be bad news when they read it in the Official Report but it is necessary that there be a political responsibility for the conduct of agencies as the politician is obliged to answer questions from Members of the Oireachtas and the media about issues that affect the agencies.

It is easy to advise that the agencies be given time to find their feet. To a certain extent that is necessary but it is equally necessary that they be monitored and guided. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, believes, as I do, that there should be an interventionist approach in this regard, and certainly in the early stages in the development of the agencies. I remember one occasion when I was in the Department of Education a furore arose over a particular policy. I was obliged to go on television that night to explain myself. It is not a question of the agencies coming back with their reports after 12 months; they must be monitored at all times.

The agencies are only a small element of the recommendations of the Culliton report and the Moriarty task force. Senator O'Kennedy knows this as he was a member of the Government when Deputy O'Malley presented the Culliton report to the Cabinet. The Bill had to be introduced because the changes required legislative reform. However, there are many more recommendations in the Culliton report — roads, ports, finance, structural reform, telecommunications, training and education, that must be tackled. The Department of Enterprise and Employment has clearly outlined its response to the Moriarty task force and how it intends to implement these recommendations.

Culliton said there was no quick fix, that even if all his recommendations could be implemented in the morning — and obviously structural reforms cannot be that instant — they would make only a very small dent in the unemployment problem on which we must focus. This Bill is a beginning. The structural reforms of the agencies are important but they are just part of an overall strategy of Government.

Acting Chairman

Thank you, Minister, for your good wishes. I wish you well and I hope you are re-elected to the House at the next election.

I am overcome by all this goodwill.

Question put and agreed to.
Question: "That the Bill do now pass", put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 2.35 p.m. and resumed at 2.45 p.m.
Top
Share