Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Jul 1993

Vol. 137 No. 8

Order of Business.

Mr. Wright

I would like to put on record the congratulations of the House to Senator O'Sullivan on her election last night as Mayor of Limerick. I wish her a successful year in office. I would also like to put on record my thanks to people on both sides of the House and all those who play a part in ensuring that this House operates as it should. I thank everybody for what I would like to think was a successful session of the Seanad.

Today's Order of Business is Item 1, statements on the Opsahl report, from 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. with 20 minutes per spokesperson and ten minutes thereafter. It is intended to leave that report on the Order Paper. Unfortunately, Senator Wilson is not here today for various reasons and it would give him and others a chance to debate this important issue in the autumn. Item 2, statements on Aer Lingus will be taken from 5 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. and I am suggesting ten minutes per spokesperson and five minutes thereafter. The Minister will speak initially and would like an opportunity to reply to the debate——

Mr. Farrelly

That is half of it.

Mr. Wright

——at about 6.30 p.m. Item 3 is the European Communities (Amendment) Bill and I suggest that we take all Stages tonight starting at 6.30 p.m., with 20 minutes per spokesperson and 15 minutes thereafter.

Mr. Manning

I join with the Leader in his message of congratulations to Senator O'Sullivan on becoming Mayor of Limerick and in thanking all those who made the working of the House so smooth over the past number of months.

On today's Order of Business, I am glad we have a chance to debate the Opsahl report and that it is being left open-ended. However, I am not at all happy with the amount of time being given to Item 2, statements on Aer Lingus. This is a matter of grave national importance which demands more than — when one takes the Minister into account — about an hour of time for statements. It is also a matter where the House deserves the opportunity of say whether it supports the Cahill plan and, for that reason, I am proposing an amendment to the Order of Business to insert Item 26 after Item 1.

Mr. O'Toole

I am glad the Opsahl report will be carried over to a later date because I recognise that most Members on both sides of the House will want to be involved and it is useful that it should be on the agenda for the future.

I agree with the point made by Senator Manning. It is not good enough to squeeze the debate on Aer Lingus into just over an hour. The Minister will take up half that time and, even without the Minister, an hour and a half is not nearly enough for an item which is of serious national importance and which is being discussed in every part of Irish society at present. It is an insult to try and get it out of the way in that short time. It deserves more time and, on a personal basis, I would like to second the proposal of Senator Manning.

Mr. Dardis

May I begin, a Chathaoirligh, by congratulating Senator O'Sullivan on her election and by thanking you, all the people in your office and the rest of the staff of the House for their courtesy and help during the past session.

On the Order of Business, the arrangements for the statements on Aer Lingus are totally unsatisfactory. This is a matter of national importance; there are 1,500 jobs at stake and there is the whole question of Shannon. We are being given ten minutes per spokesperson and five minutes thereafter which is totally inadequate. Brevity is to welcomed in the House but that is carrying it too far. There is another item after that on the Order Paper, the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, which is far less controversial. It is important as it is legislation but we are giving it much more time. In that context what is being offered to us here is totally unsatisfactory and must be resisted.

The House is not being run for the convenience of Ministers. It is a sovereign House of the Oireachtas and we are here to give our opinion but, increasingly, we are not being allowed to give our opinion. As I remarked previously on the Order of Business, more and more things are being done by executive action without any reference to this House. I regard what is being done here as an insult to this House.

Mr. Finneran

I join with the other people who congratulated Senator O'Sullivan and I wish her well in her office.

I wish to call on the Leader of the House to make a statement regarding the recent scurrilous attack in a newspaper on the integrity and honesty of a deceased former chairman of Dublin County Council. I would like to know the legal situation regarding relatives of the deceased. How are they protected under law? The deceased cannot now clear his name.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Finneran

There must be a better way of examining a planning matter than denigrating by innuendo a public representative.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Senator please put a question to the Leader of the House.

Mr. Finneran

I ask the Leader of the House, is it not now time to set up a press council or at least have a debate on the matter so that issues like this can be debated and an adjudication given on them.

Mr. Neville

I also join in the congratulations to Senator O'Sullivan on being elected as Mayor of Limerick. In that office she is automatically a member of the Shannon Status Committee. I also congratulate Senator D'Arcy on his election as chairman of Wexford County Council.

I agree with Senator Manning's proposal to change the Order of Business and I propose that Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to reject the Cahill plan. Five minutes is totally inadequate and does not give us an opportunity to fully state our views. Some of us come from areas in Dublin and the mid-west that are extremely concerned about their future. Our economy will be devastated by the decision of the Government on this issue. I ask the Leader of the House, in view of the fact that there will be a major transfer of jobs from the mid-west region to the Dublin area and that 2,300 jobs will be lost in the mid-west, to allow a full and proper debate on this issue by giving at least three hours to it.

Mr. Lanigan

Will the Leader accede to some of the requests that have been made to extend the time for the debate on Aer Lingus and extend the time of sitting so that the European Communities Bill can be discussed later this evening? The Leader may be able to arrange this after consultation with the Whips.

I agree with the comments made by Senator Finneran. I am not speaking here in the context of a former chairman of Dublin County Council but of a distinguished former member of this House whose character has been taken away after his death. He later became a distinguished Member of the other House. A reporter has the nerve to suggest that because he had a small estate — a man who was in business for many years before he came into this House——

An Cathaoirleach

Will you please phrase a question to the Leader, Senator.

Mr. Lanigan

He was in business during the time he was in this House. Will the Leader initiate a debate to see what can be done when a politician has his character assassinated after his death. Former Senator and former Deputy and Councillor Seán Walsh was a native of Kilkenny and I know there is extreme consternation there at the treatment that has been given to that man after his death. He was a well-known businessman in Dublin, he was a businessman in Kilkenny, and he had a modest estate when he died. The man never owned a house — he lived in digs — and was well-known as a man who took care of himself and of those around him, but he never had a major capital expense in his life and if he can be attacked after his death, is it any wonder that politicians are regarded as being a little on the dicey side.

An Cathaoirleach

You have made your point to the Leader of the House, Senator Lanigan.

Mr. Lanigan

I ask the press council to address this matter and I also ask the Leader to request the Minister to do so also.

Will the Leader get in touch with the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, to find out the situation regarding employment in the Garda Síochána. Recently, a young man wanting to transfer from the English police to the Garda was told that he was below the height required to join the force.

An Cathaoirleach

Will you put your questions to the Leader, Senator.

Mr. Lanigan

There is a female Garda of 5ft 3 inches, I would suggest, at the door outside. I wonder if there is equality for both sexes——

An Cathaoirleach

It is not appropriate to the Order of Business, Senator Lanigan.

Mr. Lanigan

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Equality and Law Reform to adjust the heights for entry to the Garda Síochána upwards or down-wards, as is appropriate.

Mr. Howard

I support the call made by Senator Manning, which was supported by a number of other Senators, to ask the Leader to provide adequate time to discuss the Aer Lingus issue.

I will be supporting Senator Manning's proposal that Item 26 be added after Item 1. I have had the utmost respect for the manner in which the Leader has conducted business the House and I am surprised at the offer of an hour and a half to discuss this question. To discuss this matter the period of an hour and a half, with a time limit of ten minutes on speeches by the spokespersons and——

Mr. Roche

Will you have more speakers?

Mr. Howard

Yes, we will.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Howard, without interruption.

Mr. Howard

I put it to the Leader that to confine the speeches to ten minutes for the spokespersons and five minutes to other speakers is a cynical attempt to smother debate on a report that has been produced by the most discredited management team in the semi-State sector and which affects the livelihood of 1,500 people in Senator Wright's area and undermines the economy of the region I come from.

I appeal to the Leader to treat the House in the same manner and with the same respect as he has done on practically every previous occasion. This is not the time to smother debate on this issue and on the major issues that arise from it and, therefore, I put it to the Leader that the minimum time required for debate is three hours — 20 minutes for the spokespersons and ten minutes for other speakers — and I am prepared to press that to a vote, if necessary. I want to say to those who would be tempted to turn this down and smother the debate that to reject the proposal we are making on this side of the House is confirming the dismissal of 1,500 people and is destroying the economy of my area. The Senators on the Government side should known that that is what they will be voting for when they walk through the lobbies.

I ask the Leader to avoid that situation by——

Mr. Roche

This is a speech, a Chathaoirligh.

Mr. Belton

And it is a good one. It is a long time since Senator Roche made one like it.

Mr. Farrelly

The truth hurts. Where was Senator Roche when Irish Shipping was going under?

Mr. Belton

Senator Roche should listen to a good speech.

Mr. Roche

Rubbish.

Mr. Howard

In this proposal, I am attempting to provide Senator Roche and his colleagues with the opportunity to justify their stand on this issue. There should be a three hour debate on this issue, with 20 minutes for the spokespersons and ten minutes for other speakers and then we will solve many of those difficulties. The embarrassment that will be caused to colleagues on that side of the House who will vote to wreck the economy of my area——

An Cathaoirleach

You have run out of time and have been given a lot of latitude, Senator.

Mr. Magner

May I thank the Leader of the House and other Senators who have congratulated my colleagues and leader of the Labour Party group in this House, Senator O'Sullivan, on her election as only the third female Mayor of Limerick in over 800 years.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

And also a member of the Shannon Status Committee.

Mr. Magner

The problem with Fine Gael at the moment is that they are looking for a cause and anything they hit is the target. I thought that this was a genuine tribute to a colleague, not to be a subject of a sneer by Senator Taylor-Quinn.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

Will Senator Magner please address his comments through the Chair to the Leader.

Mr. Magner

I also congratulate Senator D'Arcy on his election as chairman of Wexford County Council.

In relation to the comments of Senator Dardis that the House is being silenced, I thought it was well known that the Government has initiated Bills in this House and had allowed for long periods of debate on almost any topic during this session. The difficulty has been that, from time to time, the Opposition speakers have been in short supply — it may be different today.

The Seanad is constantly referred to as a place with no power. I am amazed to discover that a decision on the Order of Business will put 1,500 employees in Aer Lingus out of work. I never knew we had this awesome power.

Mr. Belton

Senator Magner's party will make sure that it will not by voting——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Taylor-Quinn, without interruption.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I am surprised to hear Senator Magner——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, will you please put your query through the Chair to the Leader.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

May I ask the Leader to provide a proper length of time to debate the Cahill plan on Aer Lingus. This is a serious plan, one compiled without consultation with the concerned parties in Dublin or Shannon. The plan is so serious that it will undermine at least 2,500 jobs in Aer Lingus and its semi-State subsidiaries. In addition, 2,500 to 3,000 jobs in the mid-west and western region are in jeopardy. This plan was presented by a man whose credentials are dubious in relation to the management of Aer Lingus and chairman of the board. Members are aware of Mr. Bernie Cahill's record and that of the management of Aer Lingus.

This House, established under the constitution, must be given sufficient time to discuss in detail a matter of such relevance and concern, not only to the people of Dublin, the mid-west and Clare, but to Ireland. It is a matter of fundamental regional policy; the economy of this country is at stake. This Government is to take on board carte blanche a plan that does not stand up to arguments put forward on social, economic or any grounds.

I ask the Leader of the House to provide adequate time to debate this matter. It is unacceptable to allow only one and a half hours to debate a matter of such national importance. Furthermore, it is unacceptable to give five minutes to Senators who get the opportunity to speak. Only 12 Senators will be able to speak on this important debate, less than one fifth of the membership of this House. I appeal to the Leader of the House, through the Chair, to provide adequate time and not to guillotine a matter of such fundamental economic importance. Thousands of jobs depend on the acceptance or non-acceptance of this plan.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is making a speech.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

A Chathaoirligh, I appreciate your tolerance. I appeal to the Leader of the House to provide adequate time.

Mrs. McGennis

I sympathise with the Cathaoirleach, but I am about to add to his problems. Some months ago I requested a debate on the drug problem, particularly in cities. I realise from today's Order of Business that it is difficult to please everyone. However, I hoped that time would have been made available to debate this matter. I commend the Navy and the Garda for this morning's cannabis seizure valued at £20 million. I ask the Leader of the House to indicate whether this matter may be debated before the end of this session or at the beginning of the next session.

Regarding the Aer Lingus debate, from attending the huge public meeting at Dublin airport, I believe Aer Lingus workers in Shannon and Dublin are sick of political rhetoric and do not want to hear another word from any politician.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

They are sick of hearing empty promises.

Mrs. McGennis

I can say I did not make any promises.

Mr. Farrelly

The Senator is one of the few who did not make promises.

Mrs. McGennis

If the Opposition put forward a plan, it would be interesting to read it. All they have done is contribute to the misery of the Aer Lingus workers.

I support Senator Finneran's call for a press council or an investigation. A recent newspaper report has cast a slur on all local authority members. I served with Sean Walsh on Dublin County Council and I do not understand how a newspaper of the calibre of The Irish Times and the two journalists involved in what was supposed to be a piece of investigative journalism could simply go to the public records to see what the deceased had left and suggest impropriety. It is gutter press at its worst and is a slur on all local authority members. I ask the Leader of the House to make representations to the relevant Minister.

Dr. Henry

I support Senator Lanigan's call for the House to sit late, perhaps until 12 p.m. This would allow more time to discuss the Opsahl report and Aer Lingus.

Mr. Daly

I ask the Leader of the House if we could sit late tonight so as to allow additional time for the Aer Lingus debate. I could speak for one and a half hours on this matter, without a problem.

It is important to note that acceptance of the Fine Gael motion could wipe out Shannon because it does not mention the mid-west, Shannon or the effect this decision will have on the region. I would appreciate an extension in the time allowed to debate this matter and I appeal to the Leader of the House to consider this.

An Cathaoirleach

My apologies to Senator Norris. How could I forget you?

Mr. Norris

I was beginning to wonder if I was suffering from the same condition as the unfortunate garda and had shrivelled up and become too small. I did not want to become too agitated in case I was removed in a state of terminal agitation.

I will greatly miss the atmosphere of fantasy which exists in this House when we break for the summer. I heard Senator Finneran appeal to the Cathaoirleach for legal advice in relation to libel laws, which I do not believe the Chair is professionally qualified to give. Although the Cathaoirleach holds an elevated position, advising Senators on such matters is not part of his brief——

Mr. Finneran

I asked the Leader of the House.

Mr. Norris

Most people are aware that it is not possible to libel the dead. Senator Lanigan then appealed to a press council which I am sorry to say does not yet exist in this country. We are living in fantasy land. So many of my colleagues are county councillors', they are tetchy and sensitive people and let us not avoid——

Mr. Finneran

On a point of order, the Senator is not replying to the Order of Business. I thought we had a Leader of the House.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Senator Norris to address something on the Order of Business and leave the people from the university of life.

Mr. Norris

I would like to make one point. Let nobody divert attention from the real scandal, which is a series of outrageous planning decisions, particularly in North County Dublin. That is the real scandal and nobody should try to draw a veil over that. Why did we not meet at 10.30 a.m. and why can we not meet tomorrow? I accept this is the last week. We will probably have a vote, thus leaving one and a half hours to debate the Opshal report. That is an insult.

I formally propose, and I believe this may be seconded, that we extend Item 2 until 8 o'clock. That would allow time for a reasonable discussion. I am not doing this to create difficulties for the Government, but we must seriously consider this important question relating to employment. A number of different views will be expressed. I will resist the temptation, unlike other Members, to make a speech at this time. Is is regrettable that we are meeting for only half a day to debate this matter; extra time should be allowed.

Ms Honan

I support calls for extra time to debate Aer Lingus. Many Members are anxious to contribute to this debate and they must be given the opportunity to do so.

Mr. Sherlock

I second the motion to extend the time of the debate on Item 2.

I join with Members in congratulating Senator O'Sullivan on her election as Mayor of Limerick, a historic city. The same can be said about the commitment given to people in the Shannon region as was said about the Treaty of Limerick, "that before the ink with which 'twas writ was dry...". This issue is about people and for the Seanad to devote only one and a half hours to a major issue which is being talked about throughout the country is a scandal. The time available for this debate should be extended, otherwise the debate is a nonsense.

Mr. D'Arcy

First, my sincere thanks for the good wishes of the Seanad. I support the call for the extension of the debate on Aer Lingus and the Shannon stopover. The Minister is speaking here and he has requested the right to reply. I wish to bring it to your notice, a Chathaoirligh, that as I understand Standing Orders a Minister cannot reply to statements made in the Seanad.

The Leader of the House has been requested at least twice, by myself and others, to allow a debate on the extension of disadvantaged areas, and one in relation to the financial institutions. Both issues have been ignored.

Another issue which should be discussed here is the action of the Minister for the Environment in notifying all county councils that he has made an order disallowing the taxation of cars for a three month period. This is an attack on the poorer sections of the community. I wish to point out to the Government, and to the Labour Party in particular, that 54 per cent of the people in my county tax their cars on a quarterly basis. This is a vicious tax on poor people. These people cannot afford to keep cars and tax them on either a six or a 12-month basis. This Government will go to incredible lengths to bring in money. The Government is getting three months payment in advance from the poorer sections of the community and this issue should be dealt with in this House. I ask for time today or tomorrow to debate this issue.

Mr. Cosgrave

I was interested to hear the Leader of the House mention the co-operation he has received and for which he thanked Members. I hoped that on the final day of this session this co-operation could continue. We gave the Leader of the House notice last Thursday that we would be pressing our motion and that we would be insisting on extra time in order to debate a most important issue. I was interested in the contributions of Senator Lanigan and Senator Daly. Should this question come to a vote they will be very welcome on this side of the House.

Finally, on an issue on which I am sure there will be total agreement, last Friday former head usher Peadar Lawless retired after almost 40 years service to this House, during which time he was of great help to all Members. On behalf of my group I send him our good wishes for a long and happy retirement.

Mr. Burke

I, too, call for extra time to debate the Shannon stop over and the Aer Lingus issue. I must take issue with Senator Daly as the Shannon stopover issue is included in our motion regarding the Aer Lingus plan.

I support Senator D'Arcy in relation to extension of the three months taxation period to six months. The Government is depriving the poor people of the option of taxing a car for three months; the shortest period for which a car can be taxed is now six months and this is an indictment of the Government. I call for this provision to be removed at once.

With regard to marine matters, by the year 1996 the 20-mile zone will be reduced to 12 miles, and I ask the Leader of the House to request the Minister for the Marine to ensure that we put proper surveillance measures in place to safeguard our national fishing industry.

Mr. Roche

I, too, wish to place on the record my concern about the changes in the motor taxation system. The points made by Senator D'Arcy and others are quite correct and it is a pity that we do not have time to discuss the matter. I also think it would be appropriate if we had more time to discuss the issue of Aer Lingus. The semi-State bodies have been scandalously neglected over the years by both Houses of the Oireachtas and I wish to see more time given to debate these matters.

I wonder whether there is any way in which we can protect the character of people, whether they are public representatives or not, from McCarthyism in this country. If Senator Norris took time to reflect on the finger pointing which has taken place with regard to a deceased Member of this House, he would be appalled. I do not know whether there is a scandal. If there is, it should be investigated and exposed, but it is wrong that a public representative or a citizen of this State has his character destroyed after death simply on the basis of innuendo. It is McCarthyism, it is the worst form of journalism, and it is time, and perhaps Senator Norris would agree with me, that we had a press council. I do not know if there are scandals, I do not know if there is bribery. If there is bribery, let it be exposed and let those who are involved be brought to justice, but we must have some standards in this country, and for a paper like The Irish Times to do what it did to the character of Sean Walsh is not acceptable.

I was involved in cases of justice for Irish people who ran foul of the British Establishment. It seems we should now be looking for justice for Irish people who run foul of self-appointed people in our own society. It is wrong. That is not to say that I condone any misdeeds in local authorities. If they exist, they should be investigated and those involved should be brought to justice. Early in the new term we should discuss the whole issue of a press council. I will support any such proposal.

Mr. Mooney

As I am in a queue of speakers, Senator Cosgrave has stolen my thunder to some degree, but I wish to put on the record of the House the deep appreciation of many of us in this House to Peadar Lawless who retired as former head usher and who spent 38 years in the service of this House. I knew him as man and boy; to give some indication of the extent of his service, he served here during the time my father was a Member of the House, and I have fond memories of his kindness personally to me. I know I speak for many Members of the House in saying that he will be missed. I wish him a very happy retirement. It was in his nature not to publicise the fact that he was retiring; therefore, many Members will be somewhat surprised to learn that he has now officially retired. It would be remiss of me and of this House not to record his retirement.

Mr. Farrelly

I wish to support the call for a longer debate on Aer Lingus. If the Tánaiste and the Minister for Industry and Employment were given only five minutes to speak on their visit to the hangar, would they have accepted the invitation of the workers? I do not believe they would. Of course, it would only have taken five minutes to make the promises; the promises made then were not about 1,500 redundancies. The Leader of the House has given unlimited time for debates of major importance in this House over the past number of months. Surely Members of this House should have been given unlimited time to discuss this major issue which affects not alone many families in Senator Wright's constituency, but many families in mine.

I also wish to support Senator D'Arcy's call in connection with the order made by the Minister for the Environment to the effect that people can no longer pay for their car tax on a quarterly basis. In my county there are 2,000 people in arrears in respect of loans and these same people are now asked to pay motor tax in advance. Is this new Government policy? We should have an opportunity to discuss this order and the effect it will have on those concerned throughout the country.

Mr. Belton

I also wish to support the call to extend the time on the debate on Aer Lingus. It is no harm to bear in mind that last year a previous Minister for Transport spent months considering the decision on the Shannon stopover. That decision was eventually made before the election.

I would also like to support the calls against a six-month minimum car taxation period. Some people in certain areas, and especially in my own county, find it hard to travel with a car at all, whether it is taxed or not, because the roads are in such a bad state.

An Cathaoirleach

This is not on the Order of Business.

Mr. Belton

This is relevant.

An Cathaoirleach

Have you a question to the Leader of the House, please?

Mr. Belton

I have a question to the Leader. I want to ask him when he is going to use his office to get funds to fill the potholes of this county, not taxing cars. The Government has a plan to get in the money but it has no plan to improve the roads; that is the relevant point.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Belton, without interruption, please.

Mr. Belton

It has been said here that county councillors are little people. Let me say that there are least 20 little——

Mrs. McGennis

Tetchy little people.

Mr. Belton

There are least 20 such people in the public gallery today, and throughout the country county councillors have given excellent service. I resent the remark that has been made here.

Mr. Lydon

In deference to the visitors here, I wonder if the Leader would consider extending the debate until 6.30 p.m. because it is an important one.

Mr. McGowan

As somebody who is not depending on Shannon or Dublin for a vote, may I make a comment? It is hard to sit back here and stomach the hypocrisy about promises that were made in the hangar. In rural Ireland people are saying that £170 million has been promised and committed to regenerate and restructure Aer Lingus and that that money should be going to restructure rural Ireland. There are crocodile tears from those who predicted that rabbits would overrun Shannon——

Mr. Belton

White rabbits.

Mr. McGowan

——and they sold the first planes that were ever put into the country. They are the same people who have answers for Shannon, answers for Aer Lingus, and answers for everything. The problems of Aer Lingus will not go away tomorrow, they will not be solved by an hour's or six hours' debate in this House. I am suggesting that in the cool, calm light of day, after the recess, we come back and provide time for a full debate and discuss the future of Aer Lingus. The people of rural Ireland are interested in where the £170 million should go and the conditions attached. It cannot be dismissed as only being a North County Dublin or a Shannon issue, it is a national issue. All of us are proud of our airlines but sometimes there is a price which is too much to pay. I am asking the Leader of the House——

Mr. Manning

That is a new policy.

Mr. Belton

It is a good speech, the best of the day.

Mr. McGowan

I did not interrupt and I am surprised——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator McGowan, please, without interruption.

Mr. McGowan

I am asking the Leader of the House if he would consider, after the recess, providing as much time as it takes to discuss the problem. I hope we can make recommendations that are fair. It is about time Aer Lingus workers got their act together because there is a psychological belief out there——

Mr. O'Toole

That is a disgraceful slur on the workers of Aer Lingus.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator McGowan, have you a query for the Leader, please?

Mr. McGowan

There is a closed shop——

Mr. O'Toole

That is the classic Fianna Fail response, you hammer the workers every time.

Mr. McGowan

——in Aer Lingus. In fact, the belief in the country is that it is a cosy club, a closed shop, and that is the situation. I want to see it debated and the people of rural Ireland want to see it debated.

Mr. Belton

You will be grounded.

Mr. Farrell

I would like to condemn the article in yesterday's paper that tried to destroy the name of a dead man. Seán Walsh was a respected and hard-working man. I am really amazed at the number of calls for a press council because when Senator Cassidy and I tabled a motion in this House less than a year ago, with the exception of Senator Manning we got very little support for it. There was nothing but praise for the integrity and honesty of journalists in this country, and it was said we did not need a press council. I am glad something has alerted people to the need for a press council. I call on the The Irish Times to apologise to the family of the late Deputy Walsh for trying to make dirt of his name and honour after his death. It is disgraceful. It is gutter journalism in a high-ranking paper.

An Cathaoirleach

I call on the Leader of the House to reply.

Mr. Wright

May I just tidy up one or two things before I reply to one of the main items on the Order of Business? I want to order item No. 4 at the end of the debate on the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, 1993, and to say that Adjournment Matters will take place at the conclusion of Business. Unfortunately, due to time constraints we could not organise a debate on drug abuse, as requested by Senator McGennis, but we will have such a debate at the earliest possible moment after the recess.

May I make one comment on the article in The Irish Times yesterday? Is it right that someone can be politically exhumed after three and a half years? Is it fair to their family? For a paper of the repute of The Irish Times to stoop so low is, in the words of the chairman of Dublin County Council, Deputy Rabbitte, distasteful. I certainly would welcome a further debate on a press council early in the new term.

On the Opsahl report, it is disappointing that it is almost 3.20 p.m. on the day the Tánaiste has come here to speak in the debate on this important report. The fact that this report is being debated for the first time in this House, further endorses his commitment, and that of the Government, to the Seanad. I wish to reiterate that this item will be left on the Order Paper so that Members, like Senator Wilson, who do not contribute today will get a chance to do so in the autumn.

With regard to Aer Lingus, may I make a few points? Aer Lingus was debated for three hours in the Dáil which has 166 Members. We have had several debates on Aer Lingus in this House and I am extremely surprised that some of those who shouted loudest here today were silent on this most important issue when they had the opportunity to debate it earlier. The last time we debated Aer Lingus we actually finished before the time allowed.

Mrs. McGennis

Shame.

Mr. Wright

The difficulty I had here today was to gauge what interest there would be——

Mr. Howard

That was before the Cahill report.

Mr. Wright

Please let me finish. Senator, in fairness, you got a fair hearing here today, and more than you got in these reports. I will not embarrass those who failed to contribute to the debate the last time. I have endeavoured at all times to give as much time as possible for debates. In the interest of the House, we have brought in time limits and time allocation which has worked extremely well. I have now got an opportunity to extend the debate on Aer Lingus until 7 p.m. if that is agreed by the House, so that Senators will get a chance to have their say.

Mr. Dardis

On a point of order——

Mr. Wright

May I finish this point? That means we will change the various time slots and I want to thank the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, and the Tánaiste for agreeing to the change.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Dardis, on a point of order.

Mr. Dardis

The Leader has not addressed the question of the time to be allocated to each speaker within that overall time frame.

Mr. Wright

We could make it ten minutes per person, and those who want to share can do so.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed. Is the Order of Business agreed?

Mr. Manning

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Manning has moved an amendment to the Order of Business that item No. 26 be inserted before item No. 2. Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. Manning

It is.

An Cathaoirleach

The question is: "That the amendment be made."

Question put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 27.

Tá

• Belton, Louis J.
• Burke, Paddy.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Cotter, Bill.
• Cregan, Denis (Dino).
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Dardis, John.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Henry, Mary.
• Ross, Shane P.N.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Honan, Cathy.
• Howard, Michael.
• Lee, Joe.
• McDonagh, Jarlath.
• Manning, Maurice.
• Neville, Daniel.
• Norris, David.
• O'Toole, Joe.
• Reynolds, Gerry.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Níl

• Bohan, Eddie.
• Byrne, Seán.
• Cashin, Bill.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Farrell, Willie.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzgerald, Tom.
• Gallagher, Ann.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Mary.
• Kiely, Rory.
• Lanigan, Mick.
• Lydon, Don.
• McGennis, Marian.
• McGowan, Paddy.
• Magner, Pat.
• Mooney, Paschal.
• Mullooly, Brian.
• O'Brien, Francis.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• Ormonde, Ann.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• Roche, Dick.
• Townsend, Jim.
• Wall, Jack.
• Wright, G.V.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Cosgrave and Neville; Níl, Senators Mullooly and Magner.

Question declared lost.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 2 is in the name of Senator Norris. The amendment is in relation to the concluding time for item No. 2, that 7 p.m. be deleted and 8 p.m. be substituted in its place. Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. Norris

No. The Leader of the House has adequately met my reservations on the matter.

Mr. Wright

Will the House agree to change the spokespersons' time to 15 minutes instead of 20 minutes on item No. 1?

Mr. Norris

On Opsahl? No.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not agreed.

Order of Business agreed to.