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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Dec 1993

Vol. 138 No. 15

Order of Business.

We must deal with all Stages of the two Bills before the House today. We do not want to conduct our business in this way, but it is part of the system and has been for the last 20 years. Each year we receive calls from Ministers' offices to say we must have a certain number of Bills passed by the end of the year. Therefore, today we are dealing with all Stages of the two Bills in the time allowed and I hope the House agrees.

I am sure everyone will want an opportunity to discuss yesterday's historic statement but I suggest that we wait until next week because I hope we will receive a positive response from the men of violence over the weekend. We will be in a good position to discuss the situation in Northern Ireland on Tuesday or Wednesday of next week.

Today's Order of Business is Item 1, the Irish Film Board (Amendment) Bill, 1993, all Stages, between now and 1 p.m. I suggest a time limit of 15 minutes per spokesperson and ten minutes thereafter. Item 2, the Greyhound Industry (Amendment) Bill, 1993, all Stages, from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m., or later if needed. The Adjournment will be taken at the conclusion of business.

Yesterday on the Order of Business the House sent its good wishes to the Taoiseach and Tanáiste for their talks in London. This morning all parties would like to join in congratulating the Taoiseach, the Tanáiste and their team on a good day's work which is for the good of all people in this country. It is also important to remember that what happened yesterday is only the beginning of a process to establish a framework. It is not a submission and a lot of hard work must be done between now and the attaining of concrete results. We also send our wishes to those who are involved in that process. I agree with the Leader of the House that it would be better to have a debate on this issue next week after we have had time to reflect on the situation. I hope we have a full, comprehensive and constructive debate on this subject next week.

In the spirit prevailing today and in view of the non-contentious nature of the legislation, I will not oppose taking the two Bills. Senator Quinn said yesterday that it may be useful to have a break between Second Stage and Committee Stage. It would help if this could be arranged by the Whips.

The Leader of the House said, and I agree with him, that each year legislation is rushed through the House. At the beginning of each session we warn that this will happen and every year Bills come late to the House.

I want to refer briefly to next week's business, although it is not appropriate to today's Order of Business. Next week a number of Bills must be passed. We have been told that the Attorney General wants a particular Bill passed by the end of the year. If this is the case, why did the Bill not come to the House earlier? Why should this House bear the brunt of the incompetence of Departments who rush in at the end of the year and expect us to rubber stamp their legislation? I know this is not the Leader's fault and it has been happening for a long time. I resent being told by civil servants in a roundabout way that the Minister or the Attorney General must have a Bill by a certain date. Why must he have it by a certain date? Why was it not introduced earlier? All parties share the grievance about being used in this way by Departments. I want a fuller explanation from the Attorney General as to why this Bill is so urgent and must be passed next week.

I also signalled yesterday that there is increasing unease among Members of all parties about certain sections of the Bill dealing with the allowance for office holders which will be before the House next week. I refer to the position of secretaries. It would be useful to have an all party discussion on that before the Bill is presented to the House. I am aware, from conversations with people from all parties, that there is a great deal of unease and unhappiness about some of the proposals contained in two sections of the Bill; everyone knows the two sections to which I refer. The implications of the Bill should be teased out. It should not be rushed through.

Finally, I am interested to note that the intervention of my colleague, Senator Taylor-Quinn, has had some effect.

I am somewhat lost as to the meaning of those last comments.

I accept that and I am glad that is the way it is.

That is the way it is meant to be.

I thank the Senator.

Regarding the comments by the Leader of the House about delaying the discussion on Northern Ireland until next week, I agree and I repeat and support Senator Manning's comments as to how pleased we are at the marvellous achievement of being able to get a joint declaration agreed between two Governments that, we hope, will bring peace to this island.

I am torn between whether we should delay speaking on this issue until next week or use this opportunity to speak on it in order to influence those we wish to influence. I accept and understand the reason we should delay but I am a little concerned that we are delaying until we get a response. I believe it is the duty of this House to influence that response. I hope we will discuss this issue in a positive way, and that every word spoken in the House will play a part in bringing peace to this island.

May I repeat my concern regarding the reference to taking all Stages of the Bills? I understand the comments of the Leader of the House. However, if the Departments are pressing the Leader for all Stages to be passed, it should be possible to divide them during this week or next week to ensure that there is only a gap of a few minutes between Stages. I understand from Senator Manning that this is a regular occurrence.

I had planned to speak on the GATT debate last night, but realised that the GATT agreement had occurred only an hour or two ahead of time and I was unaware of the details of that agreement. It appears to me that if we are going to use GATT as a benefit for this country, now that we know the content of the agreement, we would welcome an opportunity to speak on it; regrettably, the motion last night was debated at the same time as the GATT agreement was successfully concluded. Perhaps we will have an opportunity to recognise the benefits for us as a nation in GATT and to return to that subject on a future occasion.

You are saying that Senator D'Arcy's timing was impeccable.

I have mixed views on deferring the debate on Northern Ireland until next week. However, I take the Leader's point that it would be useful to reflect on it in the interim. We all welcome the joint declaration between Mr. Major and the Taoiseach. I am sure our hope is that it will advance the cause of peace. I believe it re-emphasises a point made in the House when we condemned the Shankill bombing, and that the message remains unchanged: give up violence. That is the simple message from this House and if the issue is to be debated today that is the message that will go out from this House.

I ask the Leader of the House to deal with this matter by way of a new motion or a separate matter, rather than a resumption of Item 11 on the Order Paper, because people who have already spoken may wish to speak again.

There has been a pre-emptive strike by the Leader in relation to the Order of Business.

He is very good at that.

I have noticed that. The House is to take two Bill through all Stages today. To take one Bill in this way is bad, but, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, to take two looks like downright carelessness. There is an important principle involved in dealing with Bills in this way, it can lead to bad legislation. A classic example was the rod licence issue which was caused by rushing a Bill through both Houses at the end of session. This is something we need to bear in mind. The Leader has said he considers it is undesirable to handle business in this manner. I put it to him that he needs to be cautious in handling it in this way, because it will meet stiff resistance from this side of the House.

There appears to be an attitude in some quarters within this Administration that the Oireachtas is an inconvenient irrelevancy. That is a dangerous view to take in a democracy because this is where the law is made, not in the offices. It is important to state that fact.

I hope all Members will join with me in welcoming Mr. Yassar Arafat to this country. Hopefully his stay will be productive. The EU has an important responsibility in providing the funding to making a Palestinian State viable. In welcoming Mr. Arafat may I congratulate Senator Lanigan for his efforts over the years in advancing the cause of Palestinian self-determination.

The British Government made two decisions affecting Ireland this week: one is welcome but I believe the other should be condemned. The decision we all welcome is the joint declaration by the Irish and British Governments. The decision we should condemn is the commissioning of the THORP nuclear reprocessing plant at Sellafield. It is unbelievable that even after Chernobyl we have on our doorstep a nuclear rubbish been which is coming into commission this week. This House should debate this issue at the earliest opportunity.

I have listened to the remarks by the Leader of the House on the joint declaration and his proposal for a debate on the issue. I have also listened to Senator Manning's comments. However, like Senator Quinn and Senator Dardis I have reservations about postponing a debate for a week in order that we might think about the issue and make a considered response.

A week might be too late. I believe it would be better if this House, today, tells the men of violence where the finger now points — stop today. Next week their response may be negative and we will have missed the boat. I earnestly plead that we be afforded an opportunity today, if only for 15 minutes, to make our case in this House.

Nobody can speak with more conviction and authority than Senator Wilson. My disposition is to support the comments of the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition. However, if we simply need to say stop, I believe that the view of this House can be proclaimed now. We have said what we have to say on this issue in the House many times. I do not know if it takes a debate to do it, but I believe we could almost resolve, by unanimous consent, that this is one universal wish of this House and that it would be given with all the force of our authority. However, I agree with the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition that we might be in a better position next week to make proposals which will create permanent conditions for the securing of the peace, for which such magnificent work was done by the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister.

I was privileged to be in London on an Anglo-Irish delegation in the House of Commons. There was a feeling of history there. I believe all of us, and all parliamentary houses, have an obligation to work to create conditions to secure peace. Therefore, I look forward to a debate next week, but if there is to be motion this morning I believe the House would unanimously support it.

May I express the hope that over the weekend the media at home will take a more restrained view than they have sometimes done. The Sunday Independent in particular made highly personalised criticisms on this issue. I hope it will refrain from doing so and act responsibly. Words can kill and if motives are ascribed to certain people, they may be targeted in a way the newspapers did not contemplate. I heard some evidence of that in London yesterday.

I also welcome the visit of Mr. Yasser Arafat. In 1979 at the UN, I had the privilege of being the first President of the Council of Ministers to mention the PLO. That was regarded as a breakthrough. It is wonderful to see him here this morning as an emissary of peace and I hope we will also be able to act on the principles of peace.

I agree with other speakers in regard to the joint declaration. The unprecedented level of agreement on all sides in both Houses is most encouraging. The debate should be held at a later stage because, at present, peace in Ireland depends on the IRA and Sinn Féin. We hope they respond positively.

The other matter is the visit to Ireland of Mr. Arafat. I was a member of a delegation which went to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip three years ago. It was great to see the progress made there but unfortunately, matters have not developed as quickly as perhaps they should. However, Mr. Arafat is a survivor and I hope everything will work out properly. I am delighted he is in Ireland.

I join the rest of the House in congratulating the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister, Mr. Major, for their conviction and courage in seeking peace. It must be recognised we are starting a process and that there can be further dialogue in the eventual peaceful conditions. I also join Senator Dardis and other Members in welcoming Mr. Arafat to the Oireachtas and in paying tribute to Senator Lanigan.

It is imperative that the House has a debate in the new year to encourage the Government to ask the European Commission to take action against the proliferation of nuclear energy plants in Europe, especially those near our coast, such as THORP.

My two points are related. I thank the Members who have welcomed the visit of Mr. Arafat. That should be seen in the context of the superb work done by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and everyone involved in securing a declaration which may bring a peaceful resolution to the problems on this island.

The peace process between the Palestinians and the Israelis, like the process in Ireland, has just started. The current process in the Middle East is not the end of conflict, although some have called it that. It is not even the beginning of the end of conflict, it is the beginning of a peace process.

It is historically symbolic that the peace delegation from the Middle East should be here on the day after Mr. Major and the Taoiseach signed an accord which might give hope to Senator Wilson, the people of this island and western Europe. I hope the courageous work of the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister, their Ministers and advisers will lead to a peaceful resolution to the problems on this and other islands.

I agree with the Leader that we should perhaps reflect before speaking. The sentiments of this House are to tell the men of violence on all sides to stop the murder. We can speak for hours but if we simply say "stop the carnage", that will be enough.

It is right that representatives of all groups in this House should welcome yesterday's declaration by the two Governments. I agree with Senator O'Kennedy we should tell the terrorists this is an opportunity for them as well as us. That may be enough to say today because this is the beginning of an ongoing process. By next week there may have been further developments and enough material for a full debate.

I also welcome the visit of Mr. Arafat at this appropriate, historical moment. While there are differences there are also many parallels between the problems in our two parts of the world.

I join speakers in congratulating the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister on successfully concluding the joint declaration. The House should pay special attention to the views of Senator Wilson on this matter. I suggest to the Leader that the Whips should find space in today's business for discussion on the North to begin and then continue next week. Perhaps that could happen between the two Bills or at the conclusion of business. Considerable weight should be attached to Senator Wilson's belief that it is imperative the views of this House should be expressed today.

I welcome next week's debate on Northern Ireland. We should have an opportunity to express our views. I congratulate the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste on their handling of these sensitive and difficult negotiations. I hope Sinn Féin and the IRA show an equal sensitivity, although they have not shown it in their use of language, which is still hectoring and bullying. They use words like "require" but they are not in a position to "require" anything.

I also welcome the visit of Mr. Arafat. I understand there will be an announcement about the establishment of diplomatic representation between the Palestinian people and the Israelis in Ireland. I have been campaigning for this for many years in a climate of hostility towards the State of Israel and this is a positive development which I welcome.

On the way in to the House this morning we passed a gentle picket we should consider. A well-known Irish literary personality is carrying a placard appealing to us to do something about the children begging on such a widespread scale throughout our city. Perhaps in the new year we could have a debate about this problem.

In response to the many contributions this morning on yesterday's joint declaration, this House formally urges an ending to the violence there. Senator Wilson, Senator Manning and Senator O'Kennedy all referred to it and we will debate the issue in greater detail next week. The all-party support for this measure is important and welcome and will help get this message across. The motion for this debate next week will be a new motion, not Item 11 on today's Order Paper.

Like Senator Magner, I strongly condemn the decision to proceed with the THORP. It is unwelcome and disappointing. I hope the Government and other interested parties will find some way of stopping that development.

Finally, I welcome President Arafat and I sincerely hope his visit will lead to more positive decisions.

Order of Business agreed to.
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