Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Feb 1994

Vol. 139 No. 5

Adjournment Matters. - UCD Business and Legal Studies Exemptions.

Miss Ormonde

I am grateful for this opportunity to raise the issue of students in UCD who are taking the Legal and Business Studies course which started in 1991. It was to be a two pronged course. Fifty per cent of the subjects were in the commerce and business area and 50 per cent in the legal area. Parents and students were under the impression that when students pursued this course and entered UCD, they would be able to move into the legal area at the end of the BBLS degree. Two years later they discovered this is not the case. There are ongoing negotiations between the Dean of the Law Faculty in UCD and Blackhall Place and the King's Inns in relation to exemptions. The parents are very concerned that this may not happen. Will the Minister lend his support to obtaining exemptions for students who entered the course with the view that this would happen? The students have asked me to raise this for them.

It is a pity UCD did not do its homework before putting on a course. I now take off my Senator's hat and put on my guidance counsellor's one. I have to deal with this problem. When one looks at the books, the impression is given, although it is not in writing, that students will be entitled to exemptions. They are following five of the same subjects which are part of the law degree, the BCL. Law degree students get exemptions to Blackhall Place. I ask that students in the Business and Legal Studies be given exemptions in five of the eight subjects needed for the entrance exam to Blackhall Place as this would make it a little easier for them.

UCD had the philosophy that one could do postgraduate work in business or pursue a law postgraduate course after the BBLS but this has not happened and I am very concerned about this. We need the backing of the Minister for UCD to pursue this. Students of similar new courses in Limerick and Galway are entitled to exemptions. I do not know why UCD is dragging its heels at this stage. I would like to think we would be in a position to say that if UCD put on a course they should follow it through. The students are very upset. Some of them will qualify in the next year or two, wondering whether they can pursue courses in Blackhall Place or whether they will have to repeat all these subjects from scratch. This does not make sense. The purpose of this course was to provide two career paths for these students. This is why I am asking the Minister for his support. I appreciate he has come here late at night to listen to me.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Mr. Aylward)

I thank Senator Ormonde for raising this matter. Being the excellent Senator she is, I appreciate her interest in this case as in many others. Unfortunately, this is not a matter for which the Minister for Education has direct or immediate responsibility.

As the House may be aware, the Honourable Society of King's Inns is the body which governs entry to the profession of barrister-at-law. The society provides courses of education and training for students, conducts examinations and confers on students who reach the appropriate standard in these examinations the degree of barrister-at-law. The Incorporated Law Society is the representative body of the solicitors' profession. It exercises statutory functions under the Solicitors' Acts in relation to the education and training of solicitors.

Both the King's Inns and the Law Society are autonomous bodies and receive no State funding in respect of their educational activities. Entry requirements to courses of education and training at these institutions are a matter for the authorities of the institution concerned.

As a constituent college of the National University of Ireland, University College, Dublin, is an autonomous self-governing institution. The Minister for Education has, accordingly, no function in its day-to-day operation. Exemptions which professional bodies give in respect of degrees from the National University of Ireland would be a matter for private negotiation between either the university or college and the bodies concerned.

I have, however, had the matter taken up with the UCD Law Faculty by the Higher Education Authority. I understand the Business and Legal Studies degree course commenced in October 1991 and that the first students will graduate in the summer of 1995. I have also been informed through the Higher Education Authority that the course was not designed to qualify people for the legal profession. The intention, it seems, was that graduates with both business and some legal training would be useful to commercial companies.

The UCD Law Faculty has assured the Higher Education Authority that at no stage were students given to understand that exemptions would be given in respect of this degree by either the Law Society or the King's Inns.

I understand, however, that because of the extent to which legal matters are covered by the course, many students have decided their future lies in the legal profession rather than in the commercial world. Accordingly, I am informed that the UCD authorities applied to the Incorporated Law Society for exemption from the legal elements of their courses and expect a response to their application in the near future. I will have further inquiries made in relation to the position regarding exemptions for courses at the King's Inns and I will communicate directly with the Senator in the matter.

I trust the foregoing information has been helpful to Senator Ormonde and I hope that this matter will turn out satisfactorily for the students concerned. I assure the Senator that the Department will lend its support to this matter.

Miss Ormonde

I thank the Minister for that information. I appreciate there are ongoing discussions but the fact that it has been aired by the Minister will enhance the case and make it an important issue. I appreciate his efforts.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 17 February 1994.