Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Feb 1994

Vol. 139 No. 6

Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 1993: Report and Final Stages.

Mr. Enright

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 9, to delete lines 6 and 7.

A lot of this section is worthy of merit. It is correct that this amendment be made to this section, which states:

(1) It shall be an offence for any person who, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another, makes any unwarranted demand with menaces.

(2) For the purposes of this section—

(a) a demand with menaces shall be unwarranted unless the person making it does so in the belief—

(i) that he has reasonable grounds for making the demand, and

(ii) that the use of the menaces is a proper means of reinforcing the demand;

I have no problem with the normal procedures which are available. If a debt is due, the person concerned should be asked to pay the amount within a certain number of days. If the money is not repaid the person owed the money should go to a solicitor, who will then write to the person concerned stating that a debt is due and that court proceedings will be issued. This is sensible in a democracy.

If a debt remains unpaid a judgment will be registered against the person concerned and an execution order lodged with the sheriff for collection. However, he may be unable to collect if there are no assets. Often a charge is registered on such a property. Meanwhile, interest on the debt will continue to grow. I support these procedures. However, I would be wary of this subsection in circumstances where an individual is unable to repay a debt because it will allow people to use a heavy-handed tactics to collect that debt.

We are introducing legislation to try to control moneylenders. Their conduct and the way they collect debts in places such as Dublin, Limerick and elsewhere is scurrilous. They intimidate, attack and threaten defenceless and vulnerable people. This section will allow people such as moneylenders to use unwarranted menaces to collect money. If we allow this subsection to be included in the Bill it will give these people a blank cheque to use whatever methods they wish.

I saw the conduct of those collecting debts and the physical damage done to property when debts were being collected. I believe the Minister will say that when a debt is due the Garda Síochána will evict someone from a house or they will use force to enter a house or property to take goods to repay the debt. These are heavy handed tactics. The danger is that people will not avail of the services of the Garda Síochána to help them collect debts. They will use their own menaces to collect the debts that are due. This is a wide and dangerous area. It is not right that people, irrespective of who they are, should be entitled to use menaces, particularly towards people more vulnerable and weaker than themselves. The Bill is providing this entitlement.

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn)

I oppose it. I will not delay you, a Chathaoirligh, as I have already said most of what I have to say. One would imagine from the statement by Senator Enright that we are abolishing all protections and offences by proposing this section. We are not doing this. We are creating a further offence. It does not affect any existing offences. As the Senator well knows, if somebody goes on another person's property to collect a debt and damages the property, or its owner, and uses violence in any way, whether physical or otherwise, there is existing law to deal with this situation. This provision is similar to a provision in the UK Theft Act, 1968. There has not been the kind of repercussions in the UK which the Senator is afraid we might have here. We are not abolishing offences. We are creating a new offence and better protection under the law. I cannot accept the amendment.

Mr. Enright

The Minister outlined her views on the amendment. My point is that people who are well educated are aware of their rights. The vulnerable in society will be exposed to problems as a result of this subsection. They would not be aware of their rights. The danger is that unscrupulous people will avail of this section to use improper and unlawful tactics to collect debts. The Minister stated that there are remedies under the law. Most vulnerable people would not have much recourse to law. They are not the kind of people who would go to a solicitor's office or a Garda station. They are defenceless in most instances and rarely if ever use the law to protect themselves. They should, but they do not. The conduct of those who use menaces and threats must be deplored and condemned. We must ensure there is no legislation available which they can use as a defence if they are charged and taken to task for carrying out these threats and menances. This is why I feel these lines should be deleted.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

The Seanad divided: Tá, 26; Níl, 13.

Tá

• Byrne, Seán.
• Calnan, Michael.
• Cashin, Bill.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Crowley, Brian.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Kiely, Rory.
• Lanigan, Mick.
• McGennis, Marian.
• Magner, Pat.
• Mooney, Paschal.
• Mullooly, Brian.
• O'Brien, Francis.
• Farrell, Willie.
• Fitzgerald, Tom.
• Gallagher, Ann.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Mary.
• Kiely, Dan.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Ormonde, Ann.
• Roche, Dick.
• Townsend, Jim.
• Wall, Jack.
• Wright, G. V.

Níl

• Belton, Louis J.
• Burke, Paddy.
• Cotter, Bill.
• Dardis, John.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Henry, Mary.
• Honan, Cathy.
• Lee, Joe.
• McDonagh, Jarlath.
• Manning, Maurice.
• Neville, Daniel.
• Ross, Shane P. N.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Mullooly and Magner; Níl, Senators Burke and Belton.

Question declared carried.

Amendment declared lost.

Bill received for Final Consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn)

I appreciate the co-operation, support and the hard work done by the Senators from all sides of the House in preparing for Committee and Report Stages of the Bill. I particularly appreciate the contributions from the spokespersons of the various parties — Senator Enright, who took over from Senator Neville, Senator Honan, Senator Crowley and the other supporting acts who played such a vital role.

This is important legislation and is a significant amendment to the Criminal Justice Acts. The powers in the Bill have been sought by communities, law enforcers — indeed by all of us — over a long period of years. Tá mé buioch do uile duine as ucht an chomh-oibrú a bhfuair mé nuair a bhí an Bille seo dhá phlé sa Teach.

Mr. Enright

I thank the Minister for the attention she paid to this Bill. She has a wonderful grasp of detail.

I would agree with a considerable number of the provisions in this Bill but I have reservations about parts of it. However, democracy has its own way of working. I wish the Minister continued happiness in her Department. It is a tough but important Department. Everybody agrees that the Minister, her Department and members of the security forces should be actively supported in every respect. This legislation is part and parcel of an ongoing effort to ensure people can live in peace, harmony and safety.

Mr. Crowley

I congratulate the Minister on her handling of the passage of this Bill through the House. I would like to refer to a matter I mentioned on Second Stage. This Bill protects the rights of the individual and the rights in their homes, town or locality. The emphasis is at last being put on these rights. Previously, we protected other people's rights to the nth degree and neglected to protect genuine law abiding citizens. This Bill is a testament to the Minister's reforming zeal in the criminal law area. As one can see, some laws which stretched back to the 1800s have now been updated and reformed in this Bill. In a new and changing Irish society, this is to be welcomed. We are fortunate that the Minister was willing to be in the House for all Stages and that she was so forthcoming in her interpretation of what she had done in the legislation.

Ms Honan

I also congratulate the Minister. She has made several amendments since the Bill was initiated in the other House and she has been open and willing to listen to contributions from all sides. Since the Minister went to that Department, she has been extremely busy. She has more work in hand and many more Bills to bring forward. The Minister referred to the Juvenile Justice Bill and the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill and we will look forward to discussing them. I would like to say how much we appreciate the concern she seems to have for the opinions of all parties in this House.

Dr. Henry

I also congratulate the Minister on the Bill. As one of the supporting acts, I am glad to have heard the Minister frequently put emphasis on non-custodial sentences. It must be hard for the Minister to continue with this line when there is such a clamour for additional prison places and more custodial sentences, but I hope she keeps to it. The prison population has increased by nearly 100 per cent since 1980 and no one could say that the crime level has gone down because of that increase. I sincerely hope the Minister keeps to that line and I congratulate her again on the Bill.

Mr. Magner

I congratulate the Minister for getting the Bill through the House. I also want to pay tribute to Senator Enright for his generous remarks both to the Minister and the Department, which I fully endorse.

Question put and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 12.45 p.m and resumed at 2 p.m.