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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Apr 1994

Vol. 140 No. 1

Criminal Justice (No. 3) Bill, 1993: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I wish to express my unqualified support and enthusiasm for the measures being introduced in this Bill. I congratulate the Minister for the effective action she is introducing to deal with the contagion of drug trafficking and addiction. Communities previously untouched by crime, who lived in peace and harmony, have in recent times suffered the consequence of this contagion in that drug addicts, in the urgent need to feed their addiction, are attacking old and defenceless people in their homes. This has become an unfortunate feature not just of this country in recent times but of every country. The majority of the unspeakable and mindless violence we witness is drug related.

We must all be enthusiastic and supportive of actions, such as those proposed by the Minister in this Bill, to target those who engage in drug trafficking and who cream off their profits from the suffering of addicts and the unfortunate victims of crimes of horrific violence perpetrated by mindless, crazed people who are addicted to drugs.

We are talking about the community at large, particularly those who would normally not even have an awareness of drugs, much less be victims of drug addiction, in other countries, in our communities and in parts of our cities. The most peaceful parts of Ireland are now suffering the consequences of this addiction and that demands the kind of action proposed in this Bill.

For the first time — and this can be confirmed by an analysis of proposed penalties in legislation — the concept of the burden of proof is being introduced on a convicted person. As the Minister said, this Bill does not introduce a burden of proof in relation to the charge of possession or distribution; when a person has been convicted of such an offence the burden of proof passes to that person. This is unique; it is right that we demonstrate that such a person's ill gotten gains do not derive from drug addiction or drug trafficking. If that person cannot discharge that burden then he or she faces the consequence of a confiscation of assets. This important part of the Bill is a welcome innovation.

Regarding the issue of money laundering, which I have addressed on a previous debate in the House, our financial institutions have been used and abused. They have not perhaps taken the stringent precautions which they should; it does not always require Government or a Minister to insist on action. These institutions have their standards and obligations and they should, here and elsewhere, without any direction from Government, ensure that they will not be used as distribution outlet or a safe haven for the ill gotten gains of drug barons and drug traffickers.

However, this has not been successfully done by common cause between the financial institutions. Indeed, I have indicated on previous occasions that the evidence would sometimes suggest the contrary. For example, the banking system in Switzerland still asks no questions and uses numbered accounts. That is a norm which is being followed in many countries now. I have commented on this scandal many times and will continue to do so until it is eradicated.

There is nothing about banks which should allow them to operate under secrecy of that kind, with no questions about the origin of the funds. In many cases it is known that funds came from ill gotten gains — and from tyrants, but that is another day's work. For that reason I welcome this provision in the Bill, but I would prefer if the banks here or elsewhere would ensure that the requirements the Minister is introducing will be implemented. This would enable them to know the identity of each person, the source of their funds and matters of that sort to prevent the laundering of ill-gotten gains through the financial services system. The practical provisions which are a feature of the Bill will go a long way towards dealing with this problem but I am sure the Minister would not suggest that the Bill goes all the way.

Some economies are based on a drug culture and on drug trafficking and addiction. There is criminal enterprise today which makes the Mafia days of Al Capone seem almost harmless by comparison. Drug barons control the distribution and supply of drugs to addicts who crave them. We can see the consequences of this. For example, there are regions in Europe, notably Galicia in Spain, where the administration has been corrupted and undermined by drug trafficking through Colombia and other countries.

We have to look at another reality: no matter how much action we take, is it possible to patrol the seas to prevent from landing those who would bring illict drugs into our country which would undermine the basis of society? Last summer I was walking along the Sky Road, a beautiful part of Connemara, and saw two young men. I wondered what they were doing there. I saluted them and they recognised and saluted me. They were two gardaí on duty, observing the sea line as far as the eye could see. This is commendable but one would have to say that this task was impossible. Will we ever have enough gardaí to deal with this problem? If we succeed in putting these criminals away — and I want this to happen — will we have enough space in our prisons to accommodate them? Can our courts system cope with the growth of this empire of drug related crime?

I welcome the action being taken in this Bill but is there something new which needs to be considered? If not we are reacting to those who control this criminal empire, who are happy to see us attempting to tackle this problem. It was demonstrated in the days of prohibition in America that once distribution through criminal channels is confined, whether it is of alcohol or other addictive drugs, criminals control the empires. They can limit supply to keep up the price. The more supply is limited the higher the price and the more addicts will not be able to get drugs which they crave. This will result in increased crime. We must begin to undermine this control. If not, we will play into the hands of those who want the control of the supply of drugs to be outside the regulation of the only authority which should exercise this control, that is, our elected Government.

Studies recently undertaken, particularly in America and in Europe, suggest there is another way. I would be regarded as very conservative on almost all issues and people might be surprised that I would suggest that it is time for governments to look at that other way mentioned in reports and surveys I read recently. That other way is — and I know there are precedents for this, even in our city — for governments to ensure that the supply of drugs, which are illegal at the moment, is regulated and controlled so that it is taken out of the hands of the drug barons. It has been suggested to me — and there is evidence of this in many cases — that they actually support programmes which try to restrict the supply of drugs because they know that as long as it is kept an exclusively criminal activity they will win all the time by maintaining limited supplies and increasing price levels.

The evidence from Colombia, Spain and elsewhere suggests that the conventional way of battling this problem is not effective. If we always look at it as just a question of law and order and security — which I agree it is — we will just be reacting. Will we ever have enough gardaí or prison places? Can we ensure that we will be able to cope by dealing with it on a criminal basis only?

Prosecution, court proceedings, penalties, imprisonment, all have a very effective function in vindicating the role of the State and protecting the rights of the citizen and I strongly welcome what is proposed in this Bill in that regard. However, I would like us to take a broader view and link into much of the work which has been done, for example, in Holland, Switzerland, Sweden, America, etc. People there are now saying that if drugs — and I am not saying that alcohol and tobacco are not drugs — are causing problems in society, as they are in ours, then it is time that all governments consulted to see if there is a better way of dealing with this as a medical problem.

The distribution and supply of drugs should be controlled through medically or socially regulated channels as distinct from leaving it to the drug barons to operate very successfully in the criminal world they dominate. I hope this Bill gives us an opportunity to at least deflect them. I do not have any experience in this area, direct or otherwise, but I have increasingly observed in recent times a number of reports which suggest that is a very important trend in thinking in relation to drug contagion.

This is a very good and important Bill. I thought I would never see the day when I would be speaking in Parliament about the problem of drugs in our country. We always thought it was a major problem in the cities but, unfortunately, every other day one hears of the problems drugs are creating in local communities. We hear frequently about the use of drugs by young people and, consequently, there is a need for legislation of this nature.

Although it is a complex matter to legislate that criminals should not be allowed to benefit financially from their activities, much of that work has been done by the Law Reform Commission. However, the delay in introducing this legislation has allowed the drug dealers much leeway in the last couple of years. Drugs have become an enormous problem as we can see from reading the newspapers and seeing the concern of parents.

The Bill has been published against a background of record seizures of illicit drugs and a resurgence in the level of drug abuse and drug trading, especially in our capital city. However, in 1993 the phenomenal value of drugs trawled from the seabed at Kinsale in County Cork was estimated at £12 million. Such a quantity of drugs was not destined solely for the people of Cork so we can be sure that a large criminal ring must be operating. The most recent report to the Garda Commissioner offers the worrying evidence that, despite the successes of the drugs squad, we are far from winning the battle against the drug barons. This legislation attempts to address that problem.

Despite the indulgent attitude to the use of drugs of those who grew up in the sixties, the evidence since then vividly shows that drug abuse is one of the most serious social problems facing the world. It has destroyed countless lives and has made unimaginable profits for the unscrupulous people who control the trade. In this country intravenous drug abuse has been the largest contributing factor to the spread of AIDS. If we can control drug abuse we have a greater chance of controlling the spread of AIDS.

There should be specific guarantees to protect the interests of the innocent family members who may share in or benefit from property owned by those who will be the subject of action to be taken under this Bill. It is wrong to assume that a spouse would be aware that a partner may be involved in drug trading. Children do not choose the family into which they are born and cannot be held responsible for the actions of their parents. While we must pursue without mercy those who are primarily responsible and while we must not leave legal loopholes which can be exploited, it is important that interested innocent parties be protected.

However, the Minister must — and I am sure she will — pull out all the stops to deal with the problem of drug dealing. People must be protected. The Minister must increase the number of gardaí and enforce the law. The operation carried out by the gardaí during the last 48 hours is commendable. Such actions give people confidence that we have a force which can take decisive action to curb the activity of criminals. Legislation similar to this has been in operation in Britain since 1986 and has resulted in the forfeiture of substantial amounts of money and assets belonging to drug dealers. We must address the issue of what should be done with the money. Under this Bill the money will go to the Exchequer.

Extra gardaí are necessary to curb the activities of drug dealers. I was sad to hear recently that a young boy was kicked out of his local club. The club in question said that he was obstreperous but it was decided to keep it quiet because it was obvious that he had taken drugs. It is very bad if a local club, one of the pillars of society, would not report this to the Garda. The Garda need that kind of support to follow, investigate and ensure that whoever is trafficking in these drugs is prosecuted.

As with much of the general crime problem, the roots of drug addiction can be found in economic and social problems. Just as it is no coincidence that the problems of crime and vandalism are more frequently found in areas of greatest social deprivation, neither is it an accident that the same areas suffer from the highest level of drug addiction. Poverty, unemployment and social deprivation are conditions in which drug abuse thrives. A good job, a decent home and an adequate income are no guarantee that a person will not become addicted to drugs, but there is no doubt that those who feel abandoned by society and who are without jobs, a future and hope are easy prey for drug dealers.

I welcome this Bill and am confident the Minister will ensure that it will be implemented in full.

Drug addiction and the unscrupulous way in which it is dealt with must be one of the most serious problems in society today. It currently poses a tremendous threat to our young people. Words like "drug culture" are often used to describe the situation. Calling it a "culture" gives it an air of respectability; it is a sub-culture.

A drug addict will rob, plunder and kill to feed this terrible craving. However, I want to refer to the suffering they go through. I have experience of a person who tried to come off drugs. The torture they have to go through is extraordinary; it is frightening to see it. Even if a person comes off the drug, the physical, mental and spiritual damage is frightful. Even taking a small amount of drugs can lead to a person losing their senses of smell and taste for life. A person on the other side of society who is seriously afflicted by drugs needs money to feed their habit. Initially that will lead them to commit petty crimes and later serious robberies, and killing can result from that. Because drug trafficking is illegal, there are no controls or limits.

Those making money out of this trade, often through fear, have no concern for the welfare of the recipients of these drugs. The human misery that can result from this practice is unbelievable. They have no concern for the welfare of those who take drugs. It is unbelievable to see the misery suffered by the family, friends and work colleagues of a drug addict.

As a teacher, I know the dangers young people face. When we were at school we tried new experiences because it was part of being young. The cigarette, the glass of beer and now drugs will be tried. Ruthless people will try to tempt young people to use drugs because it is in their nature to want to experiment. We must stamp out drug trafficking where people make money from the misery of others. If the class hero tries something new, everyone else will follow. If that hero can be manipulated by a pusher who is probably an addict — pushers will influence students because they are vulnerable — there will be problems and the performance, concentration and physical well being of students will be affected. Students who are addicted to drugs will steal to finance their habit.

Many drug hauls have been made recently in the south-west. I was delighted the gardaí and the Drugs Squad recently arrested individuals and confiscated the drugs coming into this country. Ireland is an island with many sheltered coves and harbours and the coast is being used by these people. However, it is impossible to patrol it. This Bill will discourage such criminals who do not worry about what they bring into the country or the damage they do as long as they make money from it.

Drug addiction also causes problems in our hospitals. Health boards, social workers and doctors spend a considerable amount of time and money dealing with the problem of drug addiction and the people who fall into its trap. I compliment the addiction centres which treat people for drug addiction. Tabor Lodge in my own area is a centre which rehabilitates those affected by drugs. These centres do a great job and they often help people to rise above the misery caused by the unscrupulous people pushing drugs.

The Bill provides for the seizure and confiscation of the proceeds of drug trafficking and other serious offences. Money laundering is now an offence and international measures have been introduced to cope with the drugs problem. I compliment the Minister on this Bill and I support the measures she is taking to help those who have fallen into the trap of drug addiction and to bring to justice those who are making money, without any concern for the misery they are causing.

I join with other speakers in congratulating the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. She is to be complimented on her performance in the Department of Justice, not least in the area of criminal legislation. This is but one Bill she has brought forward in a relatively short space of time. The initiative for this and previous Bills and the legislation being prepared is to be welcomed.

The Criminal Justice (No. 3) Bill has tackled a glaring anomaly in our legislation where the criminal godfathers were able to profit from the proceeds of organised crime. We have read in the newspapers over the years of famous figures whose obvious wealth was generated from the proceeds of crime — some of them are now behind bars, more are not. It is not before time for those people to be brought within the law. There is widespread welcome for the strong measures contained in this Bill which deals with people living off the proceeds of those crimes with impunity.

The specific provisions in the Bill are more than adequate. I compliment those who drafted the Bill on its detail, especially in the area of confiscation. Section 5 provides that, at the time of conviction, all income and assets received by the defendant in the previous six years can be taken as being from drug trafficking. Such a provision will make it possible for the courts to take drastic action on proceeds earned in such a manner. Our experience tells us these people can make a good case in their defence and hire the best lawyers to provide them with protection in the courts. Consequently the provisions in the Bill on confiscation are completely sufficient.

The parts of the Bill on money laundering and the international instruments on drug trafficking deal with areas where there have been glaring omissions in the past. Undoubtedly this country has been used if not as a base, certainly as a centre through which money has been laundered. It is clear that many Irish criminal godfathers have been involved in money laundering with international criminals. The Bill should make it possible for them to be apprehended. The international instruments given effect in this Bill will make it possible for EU Council Directives to be implemented and to make it much easier to arrest people in cooperation with police agencies in other countries.

In her Second Stage speech the Minister said:

Broadly speaking, under the terms of the Bill, where a person is convicted on indictment of a non-drug trafficking offence, the court will be able to make a confiscation order against the offender up to the amount of the benefit the court is satisfied was obtained as a result of the offence in question.

Are the proceeds of crimes which are not received from drug trafficking, for example, armed robbery or the obvious gains of god fathers received from other crimes, covered by this Bill? This is of concern to many people because major criminals are openly committing crimes. The Garda Síochána and others know these criminals who have received publicity in the newspapers, but it is impossible for the gardaí to apprehend them.

I am not a right-winger, but it is time that whatever hard measures are needed will be implemented so that these people may be brought to justice. Over the years the gardaí have made intensive efforts to bring some of these well known criminals to justice. However, they roam free because the gardaí cannot provide the sufficient evidence to bring them to justice. Although this is not related to the Bill, the public demand that we take a tough line with well known criminals and that we implement whatever measures are necessary to apprehend and charge them with the crimes which the gardaí are satisfied they have committed. If this is done, the provisions in this Bill will be more significant in the future.

The Sunday World of 3 April 1994 ran a story which identified major criminals who operate in this city. The story received a front page headline which has not been denied by anyone. Crime reporter, Mr. Paul Williams, carried out an investigation and he referred to several crimes masterminded by a particular criminal. The article, which ran for several pages, detailed several crimes, and one in particular. If what is in this article is true, the situation has gone beyond a joke. The article referred to the Lacey kidnapping and it stated:

As they searched the house where the National Irish Bank executive's family began their terrifying ordeal 18 hours earlier, they found a box of chocolates on a table with a note which simply read: "All because the lady loves Milk Tray". But this innocuous note was not left for the lady of the house by a tall dark and handsome mystery man. It was a sinister message from a mysterious and dangerous man. It was a calling card from the notorious crime boss.

Sharp and positive action is needed to apprehend criminals because we have reached a stage where people can commit this type of crime and treat the gardaí with disrespect. The Garda Síochána has done everything possible and it is time that we, as legislators, gave the Garda additional powers to deal with such people. The Garda know those who are carrying out these crimes but they do not have sufficient evidence to convict them in court. The general public want us, as politicians, to introduce more rigorous legislation which will give the gardaí greater power to apprehend those people and put them behind bars.

I appeal to the Minister today. She has done very well to date and her reforms have been progressive and significant. If my colleague the Minister, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, must go one step further, I ask her to have the courage to do whatever is necessary to ensure we do not tolerate people who are prepared to play games with our police force and the lives of so many people in this city and throughout the country which are being ruined as a result of the drug trafficking and other crimes. I do not for one moment blame the Minister or the Garda. I compliment them on the job they are doing. It is now time to take the final step which is a radical one but the present situation demands it. We must put the people we all know are responsible for serious crime behind bars once and for all.

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl do na Seanadóirí a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo atá ar bun ar feadh dhá lá. Tá aiféala orm go raibh cuid den chéad lá den díospóireacht nach raibh ar mo chumas a bheith anseo di. Tá go leor tuairimí nochtaithe ag Seanadóirí inniú agus bhí freisin ar an gcéad lá a raibh an díospóireacht againn. Beidh áthas orm idir seo agus Céim an Choiste féicint ar na moltaí ar fad agus más gá leasuithe a dhéanamh ar an mBille, a chuireas ar ár gcumas Bille níos fearr a bheith againn ná mar atá, beidh mé an-sásta glacadh leo sin.

I pay tribute to the Justice spokespersons in the Seanad. Over the past 12 months they have borne the brunt of the work here which arises from what we have agreed is a major programme of law reform. I appreciate the fact that they work under difficult circumstances. The only hope I cannot hold out for them is an ease in their work load in the future. As Senator Neville is aware, we have quite a programme in the Justice area before us in this House and there are already a number of other measures before the other House. I place on record my thanks to all spokespersons.

No joy for Senator Neville. That is what you are saying Minister.

No, indeed. It was inevitable that, during the debate, general operational matters and issues would be raised particularly in relation to tackling the drugs problem which was mentioned on both occasions. I would like to respond in general terms to some of the points raised. As Senators agreed, it is no consolation to me or any Member of either House that the drugs situation in Ireland is relatively small by international standards because it is certainly serious and needs careful and continuous attention.

International experience has shown that it is a notoriously difficult problem to overcome even for countries which have much greater resources to deal with the problem than we have. However I am determined — and I accept the acknowledgement of that determination by the Members of this House — to make significant progress in the fight against drug abuse and the Bill we are discussing is clear evidence of that determination. The Garda authorities share my determination and I am more than satisfied from the frequent discussions I have with them that it is at the top of their agenda.

With specific reference to Dublin I would mention just two examples of the practical measures undertaken which reflect the priority being given to the problem of drug abuse. Meetings are now held on a monthly basis and attended by members of the Dublin Drug Squad and other units at which recent seizures and trends are discussed and future operations are initiated and planned. A detective superintendent has been appointed on a full-time basis to head the Central Drug Squad which is based at Harcourt Square. These developments have resulted in major surveillance of persons involved in drug activity.

Suggestions have been made from time to time that a new, separate national drugs enforcement agency should be established to deal with the problem of the illegal availability of drugs. I examined that question in great detail and consulted many people, including members of the United States Drug Administration Enforcement Agency who were here some time ago and I am not convinced that such an operation or organisation would be appropriate to the situation we have here. Rather than establishing a separate agency, the proper road to take is to ensure that the resources of all the agencies involved can be co-ordinated and used effectively in the fight against drugs.

Senator O'Kennedy mentioned patrolling the seas and gave an example of something he witnessed in Clifden, Connemara, during his holiday last year. One of the discussions we have had at European Union Council of Ministers meetings over the last six or eight months is that, while it has taken a considerable amount of time, everyone now believes that the drug situation does not just impinge on one member of the European Union but transcends the borders of individual member states. All 12 members of the Union must work together to eradicate the problem and work towards a plan to provide resources to member states who have to patrol the seas around their coast. While the Irish Navy patrols what is commonly known as Irish waters, they are, in effect, also European Union waters and therefore all 12 EU members believe there is an onus on the European Union, and on the Commission in particular, to give strong resource assistance to member states to do this work through the relevant agencies.

A number of Members in both Houses have expressed concern about what they would see as a lack of the tight and close co-operation there should be between the agencies involved in drug enforcement. We are talking about three agencies: the Garda Síochána, the Naval Service and the customs authorities. It was in the context of the perception of a lack of close co-operation that people suggested that a drugs enforcement agency would be the answer to the problem. I have already given my opinion on that suggestion.

As Members and particularly Justice spokespersons will know, I commissioned a report from an assistant secretary in my Department as to what the situation was on the ground. He talked to the various people involved and also to those involved in the administration of justice, particularly in the drugs area, who had expressed public concern in the media about, what they called, a lack of inter-agency co-operation. He has just completed a comprehensive report of the drugs issue, the main task of which is to secure the best possible arrangement for achieving a cohesive and co-ordinated response to the drug trafficking problem by the relevant enforcement agencies. The report also addresses the level of resources required to tackle the drugs problem. I am studying the report but I have also made it available to a wide range of Departments and agencies because I would like their input. When they have completed their consideration shortly, I will have an opportunity to make a strong recommendation to Government and, hopefully, get agreement for the co-operation measures I feel are necessary.

Senators clearly recognised the importance of international co-operation in combating the availability of drugs, and this was mentioned again today. This Bill, which allows us to ratify three international conventions related to this area, should significantly enhance our ability to benefit and provide assistance on an international level. I mentioned already that Ministers for Justice throughout the European Union are giving this area a high level of attention and that process can only be enhanced by the justice related provisions of the Maastricht Treaty. One development in this area — and I should have mentioned it earlier when I spoke of the European Union Ministers and what we have done — is the decision to establish a Europol drugs unit. This will act as a centralised exchange and co-ordination unit for drug related information between member states. It is a very positive and forward looking decision.

In relation to the detail of the Bill before the House, I am sure it will be accepted given the complexity of the measure. It would be more appropriate to deal comprehensively on Committee Stage with some very specific points raised on Second Stage. However, there is nothing in the Bill which will preclude appropriate levels of expertise, for example, in the area of accounting, being made available to the Garda Síochána. As part of my law enforcement package, I announced the appointment of three accountants to the Fraud Squad. While it is the case that the statutory functions in the Bill are generally conferred on the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Garda Síochána, arranging for appropriate expertise to be made available to assist them can, in effect, be done administratively.

The actual powers contained in the Bill in relation to confiscation are quite extensive, including orders for disclosure of information and the issue of search warrants. To reinforce what Senator Fahey took from my indication to him when he was speaking, of course that reflects on crimes and not just on those related to drugs. The provision for the issue of restraint orders without advance notice to the party involved is a very powerful weapon in the Bill.

A number of Senators referred to bail. This is an issue about which there has been widespread concern, both inside and outside the Oireachtas. As I have made clear on a number of occasions, I share that concern. In this context, following a review I initiated in my Department because of my concern about our bail laws at present, and with Government approval, I requested the Attorney General to secure the advice of the Law Reform Commission on the options that may be open in order to bring about a change in our bail laws. Given that everybody who spoke in this House and in the other House accepts that there are many complex issues involved in changing the laws on bail, the Law Reform Commission is uniquely well placed to provide the type of in-depth analysis and considered proposals for change that are required. I look forward to the commission's proposals and I assure the House that they will get my urgent attention. There will be no delay in implementing the recommendations of that report.

Senators also put forward various proposals for the disposal of funds which might be realised under the confiscation provisions of the Bill. This was discussed in the other House and on Committee Stage there. While I do not propose to deal with it in any detail in the context of a Second Stage debate, it would be appropriate to indicate my position. I have sympathy for the idea that the proceeds of confiscation should be applied for drug related and other very specific projects. When the matter was brought up in the other House, I raised it with my colleague, the Minister for Finance. He has informed me that for a number of reasons he would be opposed to any such proposal. His reasons for adopting that view are not related to the worthiness of the type of project concerned. While I am well disposed towards the allocation of confiscated proceeds as the Senators suggested, in the light of the views that have been expressed by the Minister for Finance, I do not think I could accept such a proposal.

Another point raised during the debate was whether certain provisions in the Bill would withstand a constitutional challenge. I am sure the Members of this House will appreciate that I could not give any guarantee that a piece of legislation would not be held to be unconstitutional by the courts. In relation to the present Bill, I have been advised by the Attorney General that it is consistent with the Constitution.

I indicated on the first day this Bill was discussed that I would be open to suggestions for improving it. I will consider further the very specific points that were raised by Senators. However, a strong message has gone from this House to those people who profit from crime, that we are prepared to take whatever measures are necessary to deprive them of their ill-gotten gains. We should not be ashamed or shy to say so.

I look forward to returning for Committee Stage. I presume it will be a lively and lengthy debate.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 27 April 1994.