Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 1994

Vol. 140 No. 16

Order of Business.

Mr. Wright

Yet again I am sure the House would want me to express sympathy on the tragic deaths on Saturday night in Loughinisland and condemn those involved in violence. While the rest of the country rejoiced and basked in events in New York, these tragedies were happening not too far from here. I am sure other speakers would like to add their voice to the condemnation of such violence.

Today's Order of Business is Item 1, the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Bill, 1993, which will be concluded. With the agreement of the House, we will take all stages of Item 2, the Health Insurance Bill. Item 42 will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Adjournment Matters will be taken at the conclusion of business.

Mr. Manning

I join with the Leader of the House in his expression of sympathy to the relatives of the six people killed in County Down last Saturday night and also the relatives of the four others, who brought the number killed in Northern Ireland to ten in the past week. As the Leader of the House said, it is appalling that when the rest of the country, north and south, was united in the joy of a great national occasion in New York, a group of decent people watching this event in a small village in County Down were mercilessly gunned down. Young children have been left orphans, wives have been left widows and an old man of 87 years was shot in the back as he watched a football game. Atrocities we condemn elsewhere in the world are not very different to the coldness and barbarity of what happened in County Down last weekend. I know the sympathy of everyone in this part of the country goes out to the bereaved.

Yet again this highlights the urgent need for political movement in Northern Ireland. The European elections are over and if people have an answer to the peace document, they should give it. There is no time to waste while people seek further clarification to a generous offer, which was made seven moths ago. I ask Unionist political leaders to speak out unequivocally against movements in their community which tolerate the type of activity which happened last weekend. Although it may be small, we need total lack of equivocation on this matter.

I ask the Government to renew its efforts to try to restart political movement. I ask the Leader of the House to make time available to debate Northern Ireland in the near future.

Mr. O'Toole

I always restrain from asking for debate on topical issues which arise. However, there is widespread feeling among Members that the atrocity last Saturday night in County Down requires us to make use of this platform to indicate our views and positions, in particular, to those North of the Border. I have always taken the view — and I am not just responding to the last atrocity — that it is important that we state our position, that words lead to decisions and decisions lead to actions. Actions can lead to improvement. We need to start that process. It has to be a political process, with political initiation, and we should use this urgent matter as an opportunity to address those issues. Anybody who could watch the footage last week of that small country pub without feeling close to tears would need to have a heart of stone. It was an extraordinary scene.

On a more mundane note, but in regard to a matter which affects the lives of many people, the Leader of the House and myself are the two Members of this House living closest to Dublin Airport. It is a tragic day there for those employed by TEAM. It is important that those people also recognise that the topicality and the urgency of their position needs to be addressed by politicians. If politicians do not address it, other people fill the vacuum. It is not an opportunity to hammer Government; it is an opportunity to indicate points of view and possibly to understand better what the position is and may be find solutions without interfering in any way or taking any cheap shots.

On two other issues of business, I wish to put it very firmly on the record of the House that in the Leader's apology to the House last week he very carefully enunciated the words that in this week's sitting he would make up the Private Members' Business "in Government time". I bring to his attention a fact of which I am sure he is well aware, that this has not been done. The motion is being return tonight, but it is being rerun in Private Members' Business — the Government's Private Members' Business, but Private Members' Business nonetheless. Like The Skibbereen Eagle, we will be keeping a close and watching brief to ensure that this change does not affect us in ensuring that we get our just share of time for Private Members' Business during the term. I have raised that matter with the Government Whip who has assured me that balance will be found.

I regretted last week that it was not possible to hold the debate on the regional educational councils and particularly on the input of elected public representatives because of the absence of the Minister, whom I am glad to hear is out of hospital. I hope that she has fully recovered. The Minister of State is busy on the other side of the Atlantic with important things relative to his job as Minister for Sport. We should now reschedule that debate as soon as possible. Yesterday the Government published a report of the discussions on the regional educational committees and it should be discussed. If the Government do not have time this side of the summer I can handle that, but we need it to be dealt with. The discussion needs to be opened.

Ms O'Sullivan

I join with the other speakers in condemning absolutely the savagery that took place in County Down last weekend. It is essential that we do not give in to despair in the face of such events. We must move forward, there must be political movement and I support what Senator Manning said in that regard. If we give in to despair then we give in to those people in whose interests it is to keep communities apart. I agree that it is essential that politicians on all sides unequivocally condemn what has taken place and condemn violence on all sides of the divide. It is essential now that everybody on all sides come to the table and that the discussions and negotiations take place as soon as possible.

Mr. Dardis

Once again we are confronted with a situation where our vocabulary is deficient in terms of how we condemn these atrocities. It seems that in this House we have to repeatedly get up and make the same type of statement. These atrocities happen again and we wonder what it is within us that keeps them happening again. We had Teebane, Enniskillen, the Shankill, Greysteel; now we have Loughinisland, another name to go into the lexicon of atrocities that have taken place over the years. There is a solemn responsibility on us in the Houses of Parliament to debate these matters, as we have in the past, with compassion and with a degree of understanding and temperate language. One wonders how it can be construed that people sitting in a quiet country pub, or at a republican gathering, or how an 87 year old man can be legitimate targets. Animals would get better treatment than those in that pub received.

In condemning such acts we have to ask what we can do as a response. We are not asking this as a result of this atrocity, but I suggest to the Leader that we have a debate on Northern Ireland. It should not be by way of resumed statements; I note that Item 9 on the Order Paper is "Statements on Northern Ireland (resumed)"; but it is important that everybody should be able to contribute to the debate. We must renew our efforts once again to bring about peace. I only wonder whether such people are prepared to listen at all. We were given a commitment that there would be a response to the clarification of the Joint Declaration after the European elections and we need that response now.

Mr. Wilson

I rise to speak with great sadness in my heart because it has been a dreadful week in Northern Ireland. I have never known such revulsion across the whole community as there has been since the events on last Saturday evening. The circumstances are dreadful and the question arises as to what can we do. We can discuss the problem, but we must do more. We must each make our own effort in our own particular field to do what we can to bring peace nearer.

I heard the news of Saturday's events at 5.50 a.m. on Sunday when a London radio station rang me for a response to the previous evening's tragedy. I had heard nothing about it until then. I was sickened to death when I heard the news and I was lost for words to try to find a response, as I am now. I condemn it, but we must do more. I appeal to the Leader to allow the House to have a day of statements on Northern Ireland.

Mr. Sherlock

I join in condemning the atrocity. It is frightening to think that this could happen in Northern Ireland and that anybody could be so evil as to gun down people in those circumstances. We should call on those responsible to control those mad dogs and to stop the tit for that murders of innocent people in Northern Ireland.

Mr. O'Kennedy

All of us are of one mind on this matter. The best any of us can do is to reflect the concern expressed by Senator Wilson, who in every sense has been closer to this tragedy than any of us can imagine. For some time we have been hoping for a debate in the House. Although I understand the problems of Government accommodating debates and making statements formally, it is evident from what has been said that the restrained attitude of all Members could only be conducive to a better understanding. Even if it is not required of a Minister to make a formal statement on issues that may currently be in negotiation, I hope we would have the opportunity of having a continuation of statements in the format colleagues have expressed.

It is important that the House might be able to reassure the Unionists. I come from a republican tradition and I am proud to be called republican in the proper sense of the term — someone concerned for the public wellbeing and the protection of the private citizen. We should not allow the term "republican" to be abused. I hear loose phrases used about us relinquishing our claim to the North, but it is important that Unionists would know that we have no claim to the North. It is a misunderstanding of our Constitution.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not want to get into a debate on the matter. You should put your question to the Leader of the House.

Mr. O'Kennedy

There are so many ways we can reassure people as to our actual position that I hope we could have that facility which, from what I have heard today, would be a positive contribution towards ensuring that awful events, like Loughinisland, cannot happen again.

Mr. Norris

I join with other Members of the House in my utter condemnation of what happened in Loughinisland over the weekend and join with others in calling for a debate on this subject. The response of people on this island is very interesting and instructive. I was particularly glad to hear members of both unionist parties, especially the Democratic Unionist Party, in so directly, clearly and forthrightly condemning this horrible atrocity. It is a pity they did not condemn such atrocities a long time ago, but I welcome it now. However, I cannot give so hearty a welcome to the words of Gerry Adams. As Deputy Currie recently said on the radio, it is a nauseating performance for someone who has advocated, promoted and justified butchery to condemn this sort of activity. There is an element of hypocrisy there, as there is in the UVF and all its works.

I would be regarded — although I do not regard myself — as a Protestant in this community and I would like to say that this kind of savagery has nothing whatsoever to do with Protestantism. The people in the UVF, the Shankill butchers, who justify what they do using the word Protestantism, have no place in any category of religion to which I belong and are totally devoid of a sense of irony. I remember reading a book and seeing on the headstone of the worst of the Shankill butchers "For God, King and Country". I do not see how they could, in conscience, commit these kinds of crimes and then seek to justify them.

Mr. Mayhew was right when he asked what will these people say they did, in what they classify as a war, when a child asks them in 20 years time. Will they say they went to a public house where a group of people were watching a football match on television and shot dead an 87 year old man in the back? That is not my definition of heroism.

I am calling for a debate on the subject. Certain uncomfortable issues have to be raised. I and an increasing number of people feel that if the authorities know who is responsible for these atrocities and have insufficient evidence to convict them in a public court, then it is time to consider the possibility of internment on both sides. I can say that because I am an Independent; I have no party affiliations putting pressure on me.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter now.

Mr. Norris

I am looking for a debate on the matter.

I also wish to ask for advice from the House on East Timor. This matter was discussed through the motion I proposed but, unfortunately, I was abroad at the time. However, there are matters arising from that. Would it be possible to raise on the Adjournment the events of ten days ago when Tom Hyland of the Ireland-East Timor Solidarity Campaign and Mairéad Corrigan-Maguire, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, were expelled from the Philippines. They had valid passports, they were Irish citizens and Ireland is a friendly country. They were not convicted of, or did not propose to conduct, any criminal activity. They were there as invited representatives and citizens of this country to a conference on human rights abuses in East Timor. They were expelled from that country. Suppose an Irish person was invited to Paris for a conference on Northern Ireland——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Put your question to the Leader, Senator.

Mr. Norris

——would the French Government be entitled to expel them? In light of the debate on East Timor held some weeks ago, could the expulsion of Tom Hyland and Mairéad Corrigan-Maguire be raised as a matter on the Adjournment?

Mr. McGowan

The House should first send its sympathy to the families who have lost their loved ones. It must be clearly stated to the paramilitaries who committed this atrocity that their action is counter productive. They have achieved nothing, as the shooting of these Catholics will give the Provisional IRA a swell in their ranks. This arises because no matter how much the relatives of the dead call for no reprisals, there is an understandable bitterness which promotes revenge on both sides.

There is abhorrence at the slaughter of people in Rwanda which results in bodies floating in its rivers, yet a similar slaughter takes place in this country. It is a tragedy. In view of this, I urge the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on this issue.

People in the South do not take kindly to being advised that they are not interested in security. They are very interested. The State is spending substantial sums of money, over £1 million per day, on security. In addition, it is costing the UK £9 million per day to stay in the North.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator, the House is not discussing this matter at present. Please direct a question to the Leader of the House.

Mr. McGowan

It must be asserted in any debate that takes place on this issue that the House will support tighter security, however uncomfortable it is.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator, you may put that on the record of the House in any debate which takes place. I take it that you are asking the Leader of the House for a debate on Northern Ireland?

Mr. McGowan

The message of the House should go out as loudly and as clearly as possible that the actions of the savages who engaged in the atrocity at Loughinisland over the weekend is counter productive.

Mr. Belton

I also request the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on Northern Ireland. If a debate in the House, or any debate in the South, can help to highlight to the decent people of Northern Ireland that planned developments will not mean a takeover of the North, then it must be welcomed. Over the past six months the fears of the ordinary, decent people of Northern Ireland have increased because of interpretations of the developing situation. How appropriate is it to term savages as paramilitaries? To refer to savages as such is being somewhat unkind to paramilitaries.

Last week in the House I proposed a vote of good wishes to the Irish World Cup team. This week I am proud to report that the team has done well. It has two more matches over the next few days. Hopefully, the House will be in a position to compliment the team next week if the climate does not overcome the team members and their supporters.

Mr. Lanigan

I condemn the atrocity in the North of Ireland which took place over the weekend. If a debate takes place in the House on that atrocity I ask the Leader of the House to ensure that it be extended to cover atrocities worldwide. People in this country do not live insulated from developments around the world. If there is a direct debate on incidents in the North of Ireland, it will be a lost debate, as all debates in the House have been lost to the paramilitaries, or whoever was involved in these atrocities, since I first entered the House in 1977.

There must be a strengthening of the international bodies which are supposed to police the world and give people hope in the world. There will be a short debate in the House this evening on the UN and the role of the UN, but it is necessary for any debate to link the atrocities which take place in the North of Ireland with the atrocities which take place on the continents of Europe and Africa, the Far East or wherever. There must be a general debate in the House on the causes of these atrocities. Even though they appear to be generalised——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator, please direct a question to the Leader of the House.

Mr. Lanigan

I ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate and to extend it to include these issues.

Over the past number of months in the educational area huge debates have been going on in every town and country place about providing universities for them. There is not a town or county that is not looking for a new university. If all these universities were to come on stream there would be one at every crossroads. I would ask the Leader for a debate so that the Seanad could judge what the concept of a university is and what the needs of the people are regarding university education. Where is university education going if, as it is established at present, it is not fulfilling the needs of the country?

Mr. O'Toole

They are not paying the teachers enough.

Mr. D. Kiely

I agree with the other speakers in seeking a debate on Northern Ireland. It is the first time that I have ever looked for a debate in this House on the issues of Northern Ireland. I feel strongly about it. We have been looking long enough for debates on Africa, the Middle East, Bosnia and all the other troubled places. It is high time that we looked into our own hearts and had such a debate in this House. I learned about the Loughinisland atrocity coming out of the stadium last Saturday evening. What the Irish football team achieved for us in 90 minutes, in terms of trying to attract tourism and industry here, was destroyed by the announcement that six people had been brutally killed while trying to watch the match.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

A question to the Leader of the House, Senator, please.

Mr. D. Kiely

I am so concerned about this that I am calling on the Leader for a debate. No matter what the Irish team has achieved for us abroad, it is now being destroyed by something that we could deal with ourselves in this country. I am calling on all party leaders, as well as our Government and the British Government, to act now and get this thing over and done with once and for all.

Mr. Crowley

I join with the other Members present in their condemnation of the recent atrocity and call on the Leader for a resumption of the continuing debate in this House on Northern Ireland. However, I want to add a word of caution on a few issues that have been raised. Internment has proved to be a failed policy and should not be re-introduced.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are not going to debate the issues now. A question to the Leader, Senator.

Mr. Crowley

The other question that I wish to put to the Leader is for a resumption of the debate we had recently dealing with crime and in particular drug-related crime. We should debate how best we can use the resources available from the European Union to help the Garda and the Naval Service to combat drug importation and the ravages of drug abuse.

Mr. Wright

My understanding on East Timor is that it is possible to have another Adjournment debate on that issue. As regards Private Members' time, I can assure the House that a just shareout of time will be achieved.

Mr. O'Toole

The word "just" can be very subjective. "As agreed" is the word you want.

Mr. Wright

On the issue of TEAM Aer Lingus, everybody in the House is concerned and affected by the decisions that are being taken as of this moment. I am sure that all of us would urge everyone concerned — in management, the unions, and in Government — to make one last effort to try to avert such a disastrous situation. It is still my hope and desire that between now and the recess we will deal with Northern Ireland. The Tánaiste has been here on many occasions and as soon as this week's European summit is out of the way it would be my intention to seek a further discussion on the matter and to report back to the House.

Order of Business agreed to.