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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Oct 1994

Vol. 141 No. 5

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is Item 1. With the agreement of the House, this will be taken without debate. Committee and Subsequent Stages of Item 2, the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, 1994, will also be taken if time permits. I suggest a sos between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. and that the Adjournment will take place at 4 p.m.

May I take this opportunity to inform the House — we will circulate this information to the Whips and leaders in today's Whips notice — of future business. We will, obviously, debate the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill today and the Adoptive Leave Bill and the European Communities (Amendment) Bill next week. After that, the House will debate the Maintenance Bill, the Maternity Protection Bill, the Courts and Court Officers Bill, the Electoral Bill, the Stock Exchange Bill, the Consumer Credit Bill, the Casual Trading Bill, the Ethics in Public Office Bill, the Dublin Institute of Technology (Amendment) Bill, the Regional Technological Colleges (Amendment) Bill and the Family Law Bill. I will also circulate another list which contains legislation expected to be published

I thank the Leader of the House for his full reply on pending legislation and I am glad he will circulate it. I am also glad that he will give the House details of other expected legislation.

I notice that under the heading of non-statutory papers laid before the Seanad on today's Order Paper, there is the Final Report of the Inspector into the Affairs of County Glen plc, pursuant to section 8 of the Companies Act, 1990. As all Members would be aware, the report of the inspector is a comprehensive document which raises some enormously important issues about the operations of the Companies Act and the ethics in business aspect of our private sector. This extremely important report has cost an enormous amount of money to produce and it raises questions about the way in which legislation which was passed in these Houses was implemented. It also raises enormous questions about loopholes in that legislation because there is currently a serious question mark over whether the legislation will be able to follow up on what the inspector identifies as blatant wrongdoing and theft on a grand scale.

What we are seeing here is legislation passed by this House which may not be effective. I know there may be sub judice restraints, a Chathaoirligh, but would the Leader of the House, after advice, come back and let us know next week if it is possible for this House to debate over the next few weeks this highly significant paper which has laid before the House? It is something which Members on all sides would very much want to be able to pursue.

I join with Senator Manning in thanking the Leader for publishing the list of forthcoming legislation. I am not sure if he mentioned the Occupiers Liability Bill, which was published this morning. When could we expect it to come to this House?

Could the Leader also indicate to us when we might discuss Item 9 on the Order Paper, noting the 1993 Annual Review and Outlook for Agriculture, the Food Industry and Forestry? It would be nice to discuss it before 1994 becomes 1995.

Has the Leader any information for us as to when it is intended to fill the vacancies which occurred on the benches opposite?

Do you have a candidate?

Can the Leader arrange a debate fairly soon on a number of related matters? These include the INTERREG, the IFI, the Leader programme and EU funding. I would ask the House to have a debate and to note the serious difficulties that have been created in the Border counties, south of the Border in particular. This House could make a valuable contribution and recommendation regarding this funding. Such a debate is necessary in the light of the substantial funding announced by the EU that is now coming through the International Fund for Ireland. It is important for all of us to be aware of that. The areas we represent expect us to be vocal and to contribute. We will not have a second chance, so this would be a useful debate. I hope the Leader will arrange it at an early date under all the complementary headings. I would value the House's contribution on those matters.

I want to compliment the Leader on bringing forward a comprehensive list of proposed legislation for this session. May I ask about amendments to existing legislation regarding copyright? Some months ago we had a two-hour debate in this House on the copyright issue and there was also a public debate. We were promised at that time an amendment to the 1963 legislation or that perhaps some new legislation would be brought in. I would like to ask the Leader if there are any proposals to bring forward that legislation in this session?

Following from what Senator Finneran said, may I also ask for a debate on copyright in the widest terms? It is not clear if the European Union is going to produce a new view of copyright extending its terms by 20 years to 70 years after the death of the holder of the copyright. If in certain circumstances that were to be applied retrospectively it would mean that authors such as James Joyce who have emerged from copyright and whose books have been re-published would go back into copyright to the great disadvantage of publishers and authors. The whole principle of retrospective legislation is anathema to the law. I would be very surprised indeed if the European Union was considering something so foolish. In this Parliament, particularly with our great literary tradition. We should take an interest in that.

I would also like to ask the Leader of the House about the Refugee Status Bill, which I do not think he mentioned in his list of forthcoming legislation. I wondered if there was any particular date on which this might come forward.

I also want to express concern and suggest that we might perhaps have a debate on another subject which I think will be of interest to Members of the House. This concerns the apparent activities of elements of the Provisional IRA in attempting to establish a policing function both in this jurisdiction and in the North of Ireland. They apparently took away and interrogated somebody in the North of Ireland in recent days. Just yesterday the headlines of the evening newspapers were full of the fact that they were taking unto themselves policing functions with regard to drug abuse in the city of Dublin. I do not believe that this is appropriate or that they would be accepted as a proper policing authority in this State or in the northern part of this country.

Finally, may I express concern and suggest that we might have a debate or discussion on the way in which certain political issues are treated. As an independent politician I am increasingly concerned at the way in which elements of the Opposition pursue, apparently for party advantage, particular issues that they consider have voter appeal. I am thinking in particular of issues like the recent modest enough salary increases which all Deputies and Senators welcomed universally on a private level, and then set about attacking in the media. I am thinking also of what I consider to be perfectly legitimate trips by leading members of the Government to conduct the policy of this country, which are subject to the same rather cheap attacks. I suppose that it would be inappropriate for me to refer to matters that were discussed in the Dáil.

You are on some jet at the moment yourself.

I am not suggesting for a minute that it is inappropriate to raise ethical questions. However, I do think it is important that we should be clear about the issues; that they should be significant, major issues and not raised just for political advantage because, if so, a credulous public will be confirmed in its belief that all politicians are corrupt.

I support Senators Finneran and Norris in calling for an urgent and full discussion on copyright in general. At the present time illegal duplication is decimating the jobs of artists as well as the live music industry in Ireland. I would welcome as a matter of urgency, within the next two or three weeks if possible, a discussion on the lack of legislation and on penalties which are so out of date as to be unreal.

I listened with much interest to the Leader as he told us what our programme of business might be between now and Christmas. I did not hear him mention Northern Ireland.

Well, it was legislation.

If he did not, I hope it is not to be assumed that we will not be debating Northern Ireland again this side of Christmas. I hope that the Forum will not take the place of discussion on the matter in this House.

I think the Leader was making the point that this was legislation, but I am sure he will answer your point.

I want to express my concern, and indeed that of many people both inside and outside both Houses of the Oireachtas, at the level of debate that we have seen in recent days. I am particularly disappointed with the Fine Gael Party. I have great respect for the Fine Gael Party and its Members but I am particularly disappointed at the way in which we have seen Minister Brian Cowen treated over the last number of days, particularly yesterday. I want to express that concern.

We do not, understandably, discuss the affairs of the other House, as such. They are separate Houses. Can you just change it?

Well, a Chathaoirligh, I simply——

You are in this House now.

If you want a debate on it, ask for it.

I simply want to make the point because it is a matter of great concern to many people, especially reading the papers this morning.

Call for a debate on it then.

We have had the same example happen here in recent times. The level of debate that we have reached, the way accusations are being made, completely without foundation or substantiation, is drawing all politicians into a very low——

That is a speech, a Chathaoirligh.

You are asking the Leader for a debate on this?

Yes, I am certainly happy to have a debate and I am making this point in a genuine way. I do not often make points on the Order of Business, but I know that I have agreement from a lot of people on the Opposition side——

On both sides of the House.

that it is vitally important that we politicians uphold the proper ethos of our profession. Certainly, what we have seen in recent times is degrading to all of us and should be of major concern to us all. I would hope that we have seen the end of it. There has been an attempt to character assassinate one of our best young Ministers——

A Chathaoirligh, you are out of order yourself now.

——without any substantiation and, as has now been proved, completely without foundation. That cannot be let go.

You have made your point.

I would like to ask the Leader to organise a debate on the enlargement of the European Union which has profound implications for the country.

I would like to support Senator Fahey. We should have a full debate on this issue and this side of the House would be quite happy to debate it today. We in the Fine Gael Party will always ensure that we have a vigilant, active Opposition and we have no problem in justifying our position.

The list I mentioned earlier was a legislative programme. I assure Senator Wilson that the situation in the North of Ireland will always be to the forefront in this House. We will have as many other debates as have been called for this morning.

One or two specific Bills were mentioned by Members. There is an extensive list of further legislation which should be dealt with between now and Christmas and early in the new year. This list will be circulated. The Refugee Bill and the Occupier's Liability Bill were specifically mentioned and are on the list.

Senator Manning requested a debate on the final report of the inspector into County Glen, which we will note. As he mentioned, we will have to take advice on it. Items 9 and 10 were mentioned and I hope that the Whip will be in a position to organise those debates as soon as possible. Copyright and other issues were also raised and the Whip will do his best, with the help of the House, to ensure that these issues are debated.

With regard to the vacancies, I advised the Taoiseach, following my visit to Cork, that it may well be that three positions would have to be filled in the future.

We would hate to lose him.

I have advised the Taoiseach that he should wait a couple of weeks.

Order of Business agreed to.
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