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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Jan 1995

Vol. 141 No. 13

Death of Former Member. - Order of Business.

I formally congratulate Senator Wright on his appointment as Leader of the Opposition in the House. He set the highest standards of civility, courtesy and effectiveness when Leader of the House and I know he will bring the same qualities to bear on the even more onerous burden of leading from the other side of the House.

Today's Business is Item 1, with the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs to be called on to make a statement in reply not later than 5.45 p.m. A time limit of ten minutes per Senator was agreed by the House on 20 October when this item was last discussed but, if there are not too many speakers offering, there could be flexibility on that point. Perhaps the Whips could arrange it.

Item 6, Fianna Fáil's Private Members' Motion on drug abuse, will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

On behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, I congratulate Senator Maurice Manning on his appointment to the position of Leader of the House. The decision to appoint him is a welcome one. His commitment to the House is well known and, while I would not wish him too long a stay in that important position, I wish him well. He is a person who is totally committed to the Seanad. We, on the Opposition side, will certainly support his moves to introduce more reforms to the House. I am also delighted that his aide-de-camp of many years, Senator Cosgrave, has also been appointed as Government Whip.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Our group will do its best to ensure that he is kept busy over the next couple of years. I wish both Senators well and hope they will have an opportunity to implement the reforms of which they spoke when in opposition.

We agree to the Order of Business. If the Leader agrees, I suggest that 15 minutes per person should be permitted. I would also ask the Leader, if possible over the next week, to bring to our notice the programme of legislation for this session. I understand it has been issued in the Dáil and we would like a copy. At the earliest opportunity we would also like a further debate on Northern Ireland given the progress that has taken place. As the Leader will be aware, this is an issue that has been debated here on many occasions.

I also extend my congratulations to Senator Manning on his appointment as Leader of the House and to Senator Cosgrave on his appointment as Government Whip. I welcome Senator Wright to this side of the House and congratulate him on his new role. In the midst of all this musical change, movement, enthusiasm and argument, there is one area of stability in this House——

——which is unchanging.

But cherished.

We are open for business.

On a serious note I wish to remind Senator Manning of the many impassioned speeches he has made about reforming the House. We look forward to discussing some ideas with him. For many years he has put forward the idea of having an hour during the week for discussions of topical issues. The unusual make-up of the House at the moment allows all sides to work together to reform and to make this House as effective as it can be under the Constitution.

I reiterate what Senator Wright said about a list of the forthcoming legislation, particularly the legislation which it is intended to initiate in this House. I often wonder if those words are inscribed on the Opposition Leader's desk. This would be critically important as part of initiating a programme intended to extend and expand the influence and the work of this House in the way it was intended. This is an unprecedented opportunity to do that. I hope this matter will be taken in hand — I know it will be — by the Leader of the House by taking on broad issues of importance and ensuring that we are all given the resources and support to do our jobs as well as we can.

I join in the tributes to the Leader and the Whip. I congratulate Senator Manning on his nomination as Leader of the House and Senator Cosgrave as Whip on the Government side. I also congratulate Senator Wright on his appointment. Senator Honan and I have not yet resolved the great difficulties that exist between the two of us in respect of who might lead from our side. I want to say to Senator O'Toole that there is stability in other areas.

Ours is ideological stability.

I thought there was more diversity in their ideology than in ours. I support the views already expressed about the legislative programme. I ask the Leader if there are any plans to introduce amendments to the Road Traffic Act in the coming session, bearing in mind the vigorous opposition which was brought to bear on aspects of that Bill by the Fine Gael Party when it was coming through this House. The provisions of that Bill are in stark contrast to other parts of our law which seem to allow people to roam our streets freely——

You are making a speech, Senator. Direct your——

I can assure you, a Chathaoirligh, I am trying to——

You are making a Second Stage speech.

I promise you, I am trying to frame this into a question.

I would like that.

Would the Leader agree that there are aspects of the Road Traffic Bill which are in stark contrast to some of the deficiencies in other parts of our law which seem to allow people to roam our streets freely when there is very serious crime being perpetrated?

I also ask the Leader to arrange a debate on education in the near future because both third and primary level education are very much in the news. We could usefully look at that area in the coming weeks.

I agree that Northern Ireland should be debated but I am not sure whether it should be debated before the framework document is to hand. Perhaps we should wait until we have that document before we debate Northern Ireland again.

I ask Senators to address questions to the Leader and, as much as possible, to stick to questions relating to the Order Paper.

I ask the Leader of the House to arrange for an early debate on the Price Waterhouse report into the Army. This wide ranging report has major implications, not only for the Army but, for cities and towns around the country which have had an Army presence for many years. The role of the Army abroad has to be taken into account.

Much of the report is taken up with matters which do not relate to the military. They are purely financial matters which have no relevance to the running of a modern army. They may be good in economic terms but definitely do not suit the requirements of the Army. I would also like, if possible, the relevant Minister to make a copy of the report available to Members of the House as we should have it. There are grave problems in the Army at present in the sense that we do not have a Chief of Staff.

You are making a speech. Ask a question of the Leader.

I am asking the Leader if he would bring to the notice of the Government the fact that there is not a Chief of Staff. As soon as that appointment is made, the morale of the Army will be raised dramatically.

What are the views of the former Minister?

I ask the Leader of the House for an early debate on developments in the EU as it is some time since we had a debate on European affairs. Since then, there have been major problems relating to the Spaniards, fishing and so forth. There are a number of items we could discuss which relate to the EU. If possible, could we have our lady MEPs in to discuss their attitude to Padraig Flynn?

Please Senator, you have gone too far.

That is a question for the Leader.

That is discrimination against male MEPs.

On the Order of Business please; a question to the Leader.

Perhaps arrangements could be made for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come to the Seanad to discuss the serious situation in Chechnya. The Government has sent a note of protest to the Russians because of the invasion of Chechnya. However, there are a number of implications, including the fact that that particular state wanted to opt out of the Russian Federation but it was not allowed to do so. We should ask why it was not allowed to opt out when other states were. I would like a debate on that issue.

Senator Lanigan covered my main points. As regards Chechnya, perhaps the Leader could tell us when we could have a debate on this matter because it is of the utmost importance to have a full debate on this invasion. The Government has protested about the loss of life, the destruction and the murder of innocent civilians but this House should be afforded an opportunity to discuss it.

I join with Senator Dardis in asking the Leader when amending legislation could be introduced. I look forward to hearing if Senator Dardis wants to increase or reduce the penalties.

Please put a question to the Leader.

I would like to have a debate on that topic.

We would not like to show our hand.

Would the Leader provide time as soon as possible for a debate on the different agencies, the county enterprise partnership boards, INTERREG, Leader and IFI funding, as these are all related? Every Member knows it is easy to have a structure in place without a backup. The Donegal County Enterprise Partnership Board, in which I am involved, does not have funding. It is a statutory organisation with no funding and we have received an indication that the Minister may not have funding for county enterprise partnership boards in the future. I ask the Leader if he will arrange a debate on this subject as soon as possible. The Leader will appreciate that I raised this matter when I sat on that side of the House. I ask the Minister for Finance to cover all these items. I am sure Members on both sides of the House would be interested in such a debate.

Last week at the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation we were addressed by former prisoners from Northern Ireland and by people involved with prisoners in the North and in the Republic. I know A Government of Renewal has stressed that it will ratify the Council of Europe Convention on the transfer of sentenced persons. I ask the Leader of the House to stress to the Minister for Justice the urgency of this because the prisoners' issue is so important to the peace process and is an area where we could make a contribution. This convention dates from 1986 and we are the only European Union country which has not ratified it. I raise this issue not because I believe the Government will not make an effort to ratify the convention but because I asked two years ago for the ratification of the Convention to the 1977 Protocol to the Geneva Convention and it has not yet been ratified. I would not like the same lack of urgency to apply to this convention.

It is you, a Chathaoirligh, who is the real force of stability in this House and I hope you will continue to be so. The stability of Senator O'Toole's group might be tested over the coming weeks and months.

That is not on the Order of Business. I ask you to put a question to the Leader.

The matter I wish to raise this afternoon concerns the major flooding nationally and in the catchment area of the River Shannon in particular. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry to come to the House to debate this urgent matter. We have seen on television areas in towns and cities which were flooded, but in the Shannon catchment area hundreds of farming families have suffered severe hardship and major losses. This an important issue as far as they are concerned. Again, I ask the Leader of the House to arrange as a matter of urgency a debate so that we can evaluate and discuss what has happened and to see if there will be a reasonable response from the Government.

Shortly before the last Government left office, a list of Bills was circulated to our Whips Office. I was interested in a Bill which was supposed to come before the House before Christmas but because of special circumstances that did not happen. I want to ask the Leader about the Fisheries and Commercial Harbours Bill which deals with a number of fishery harbours. I have a particular interest in the Bill because it is proposed that Dingle be made a major fishery harbour centre. In fact, prior to Christmas I suggested to the Minister that the part of the Bill dealing with the Dingle major fishery harbour centre be dealt with as a separate Bill, in other words, it would be a short Bill which could pass through the House quickly. The rest of the Bill could take eight or nine months or even longer to be passed through both Houses. I ask the Leader to find out what he can about that.

Would it be possible to discuss the Road Traffic Act? I know my party introduced and passed that legislation but I did my best to have its provisions watered down.

(Interruptions.)

I hope the press is not reporting that.

I did my best but my comments fell on deaf ears. I met the new Minister on behalf of my people and I thank him for his courtesy and understanding. We are not looking for the impossible. I understand it is not possible to reduce the limits but there should be a grading system for a person who goes out, has a couple of pints in his local, is over the limit but gets into his car——

The Senator is making a Second Stage speech.

——and is put off the road for two years. There should be a grading system and the court should have some discretion. I ask the Leader if it is possible to do something about that.

I join in the praise to Senator Manning, Senator Cosgrave and my colleague, Senator Wright, on the confirmation of their high offices and I wish them well.

As regards the Programme for Government, I ask the Leader of the House to clarify whether a commitment was made that the question of votes for emigrants would be addressed — the proposal being that three Seanad seats would be set aside for emigrants. If implemented, it would have far-reaching constitutional and electoral implications. I agree with those who have been lobbying in the UK for greater representation for emigrants in the voting system in this country that this falls far short of what they seek. Perhaps the Leader could arrange a debate on the matter at an early stage or clarify that section of the new Programme for Government. Emigrants have strong views on this issue; as someone who travels to the UK frequently, I know they believe it should have been addressed by either the last Government or the one before. This Government knows the importance of this lobby and I hope it addresses this matter and that there can be an open ended debate. I urge caution on the proposals that three seats — not extra seats — be set aside in this House for emigrants.

I join in the congratulations to all those who obtained office, in particular the Leader of the House, Senator Manning. I look forward to working with him and making sure he has a busy and fruitful time in the short period he will be Leader.

In the document A Government of Renewal a number of Bills are specifically promised which do not appear in the list of legislation circulated yesterday. One of these has been completed and would be ideal for introduction in this House — the Freedom of Information Bill. The Minister of State, Deputy Fitzgerald, had almost reached the final stage of her deliberations on that matter. The new parties in Government will obviously want to have an input but that legislation should be introduced here expeditiously.

The second Bill promised in that document will concern administrative procedures. Again it would be ideal if that was introduced in this House and it would be a fruitful contribution to public administration. The third piece of legislation concerns positive changes to the Ministers and Secretaries Act. I do not mean the item we will discuss tomorrow, rather a commitment in the new Programme for Government — and in a programme produced to other partners who were almost in Government — to amend that Act in so far as it refers to ministerial responsibility. All three items could be introduced and progressed rapidly in this House. They could then be brought to finality and placed on the Statute Book.

I also ask the Leader to make time for two debates. The first concerns an issue as important to him as to me, university funding and fees. That debate is taking place at present. It is a difficult issue, there are arguments on both sides, but the Seanad, especially because of its university representation, could make an interesting contribution. I ask for an early debate.

The second debate I call for is on fisheries. Major decisions have been made over the last six weeks, particularly with regard to access by Spanish fishermen to the so-called "Irish box". Anyone from a coastal constituency and anyone who considers the amount of damage those fishermen have already done would be anxious that we discuss that. Again, it is an ideal matter for the Seanad.

I support the calls made to amend the Road Traffic (Amendment) Act, 1994. I hope Senator Bohan and his Dublin colleagues support their country cousins. It was disappointing that yesterday our Dublin cousins let us down in our hour of need.

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

It is relevant in so far as Senator Bohan raised the issue. I am delighted he supported the new calls; if he had supported the amendments we put down at the time we would not have to amend the legislation now.

Is there any possibility of having the volume levels in the House increased, or of having the microphones on this side of the Chamber turned towards Members?

I congratulate Senator Manning on becoming Leader of the House and I congratulate Senator Cosgrave. They are two great ambassadors for the Seanad. I also congratulate Senator Wright, the new Leader of the Opposition, and Senator Mullooly, our Chief Whip. He is an important man who was courteous to us when in Government and I know he will continue to be so for the short period we will be on this side.

Senator Cassidy knows what side his bread is buttered on.

Senator Cassidy without interruption. Have you a question for the Leader of the House?

I know I am speaking for everybody in saying that we are delighted to see Senator Manning in this position.

Has the Senator another question?

When is it proposed to take Item 4:

That Seanad Éireann calls on the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht to set up a music council to cater for the needs of the live music industry in order to save existing jobs and to create further employment in this great growth industry.

We have had an efficient and good Arts Council for many years. The establishment of the Film Board has been a major boost to the film industry which is generating an enormous number of new jobs. However, the industry that at present employes about ten times more has no council or board to represent it vis-á-vis the Government. That must be looked at and deserves a full discussion in this House. We are fortunate to have a Minister who is sympathetic and who understands this magnificent industry which creates many jobs for young people. These young people are great ambassadors for Ireland throughout the world.

The Senator is making a speech.

I call on the Leader of the House to have an urgent debate on this matter. It has been on the Order Paper for a long time and it should be debated in this session.

I understand it is proposed to amend the arterial drainage legislation to enable the Office of Public Works to undertake work on the severe flooding problems which have already been mentioned by Senator Finneran. Even now they are affecting parts of County Clare such as Sixmilebridge, Ballyvaughan, Kilrush and the Shannon estuary. These severe problems are causing untold hardship for many people. I understand it is intended to introduce legislation to give the Office of Public Works the authority and finances to deal with it. When is that legislation likely to be introduced?

Would the Leader of the House consider having a debate in the near future on industrial relations in the light of the many problems that have arisen in large companies recently? I concur with the sentiments expressed by my colleague, Senator Norris, in The Irish Times yesterday with regard to the Packard workers. Some of the arrangements that have been made there are disincentives rather than incentives. I am worried that if we continue down this road all the hard won privileges secured by union negotiators during the years since the lock out will be swept away in the interests of big business. Perhaps we could have a debate on this issue.

Before I call on the Leader of the House to reply I congratulate Senator Manning, Senator Cosgrave and the Senators on the other side of the House on their recent appointments. I know all of you will be successful.

On behalf of my aide-de-camp, as he has been so eloquently described, and myself I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Members of the House for their good wishes for a successful and lengthy term of office.

I assure Senators that reform of the Seanad will be my first priority. I should remind the House that reform of the Seanad is not a matter for Government, it is a matter for the House. It is my intention to engage in consultations with all groups in the House to see that the reforms — upon which I suspect there is a wide measure of agreement — can be put through as speedily as possible. We are in a fortunate position, thanks to the absence of stability in certain aspects of the House, which strengthens the hand of those who wish to make Government listen. Having consulted with members of the Government I have found that there is widespread support for us doing our own business and ensuring that this House is not left behind as a result of the recent reforms that have taken place in the other House.

With regard to Northern Ireland, I too am anxious to have a debate on it at the earliest opportunity. Senator Dardis made a point about the timing and to the publication of the framework document. In fairness, this House has always debated Northern Ireland in a particularly sensitive way and has never embarrassed a Government in the middle of negotiations.

Senator Dardis and others raised the Road Traffic Act. I suppose it is a matter of great regret that voices in this House were not listened to when the legislation was going through. I understand that at present the Government is consulting with a wide range of interests. The matter is actively under review and I will report back to the House as soon as I have something more specific to say.

Senator Dardis also raised the question of a debate on education. During the last Government, the ongoing debate on education was especially useful. I would like to reopen the debate, and to have education almost as a permanent part of the Order Paper because there are major changes taking place at all levels. The most recent has been the funding for third level fees. It is something I wish to get on the Order Paper quickly.

Senator Lanigan raised the question of the Price Waterhouse report on the Defence Forces. The new Minister for Defence and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, would like to hear the views of Members on this report. When in Opposition we asked that the report be debated, and our position has not changed. I will, therefore, see if I can address this matter at the earliest possible opportunity. I will also ascertain if copies of the report can be made available to Members.

Senator Lanigan also, in the course of a long and discursive contribution, appeared to advocate that we should discriminate against male Members of the European Parliament. However, the political correctness on this side of the House would not allow us to do that.

Senator McGowan raised the question of the county enterprise partnership boards. If he could draft a motion to incorporate the main points he wishes to make on this issue I will ascertain if time can be made for it.

Senator Henry raised the issue of legislation in respect of prisoners. I can assure her that the transfer of sentenced persons Bill is high up on the Order Paper priority list for the Government and I will ensure that the Senator's concern is brought back to Government and I will attempt to have the Bill introduced in this House if possible.

On the question of flooding, I am sympathetic to Senator Finneran's request. I am not sure if our procedures would allow us to act quickly enough, and a motion on the Adjournment might be a speedier way of getting the Minister to attend. Perhaps I could talk to the Senator later to see if there is some other way we can have a fuller debate on this issue.

With regard to the Bill mentioned by Senator Fitzgerald, it is not on the list I have at present. This is a pity because all of us would like to see Dingle grow and thrive. I will make inquiries——

I will give the Leader my list.

——and get back to the Senator. Senator Bohan's contribution spoke for itself. His point is well made. On the question of votes for emigrants, raised by Senator Mooney, this is a firm commitment in the Programme for Government. The mechanism has not been decided. I believe that the more likely approach will be not the taking of any seats from any of the panels, or, indeed, on this day especially, no attenuation of university seats, which we all cherish, but perhaps the addition of extra seats. One way or the other, that proposal will need constitutional verification and I will report to the House as soon as there is further detail because it is obviously a matter of great concern to all Members.

Senator Roche made a number of important contributions. I take his point regarding the Bills he has mentioned. This House might be the better forum in which to have them introduced. I will pass on this suggestion and see what pressure I can bring to bear on the matter. I also agree with the Senator that, perhaps as part of an education debate, the question of university funding could be incorporated.

Senator Farrelly mentioned the Road Traffic Act. With regard to Senator Cassidy's remarks on Item 4 on the Order Paper, this is a Fianna Fáil private Members' motion. If the Senator could persuade his colleagues to give him the next Fianna Fáil slot, that would be a good way of discussing the matter. It is the kind of motion upon which we could all agree.

No, it is much more important than that.

I will talk with the Senator later.

If the Senator was young he would recognise that.

With regard to Senator Daly's point, I am not aware of legislation regarding arterial drainage but I will make inquires in this respect. As regards Senator Lydon's comments on industrial relations, I would not put this matter on top of the list of priorities to be debated in the House but perhaps it could be fitted in down the line.

Before asking if the Order of Business has been agreed——

There are two items — developments in the EU——

I am sorry but the Leader of the House has replied.

The Senator raised that question; I hope to start a debate on the EU next week or the week after. It is important, and it is also important to have it as a continuing item.

I wish to make two points before asking whether the Order of Business is agreed. The Leader covered one of them. It seemed to me during the long Order of Business — I allowed an element of flexibility as it was our first day back — that many of the items, the Leader made the point himself, could be dealt with on the Adjournment or during private members' business. The other question to be clarified is that on the statements on ending long term unemployment we have a number of speakers — Senator Taylor-Quinn, Senator Roche, Senator Henry, Senator O'Sullivan, Senator Honan, Senator Daly, Senator Cotter, Senator Calnan and Senator Quinn. If they request an extension from ten to 15 minutes, will the House agree to that? Agreed.

Order of Business agreed to.
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