Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Feb 1995

Vol. 141 No. 16

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

It is proposed to take Items 1, 2, and 3 today. On Item 1, it was proposed that there would just be one spokesperson per group with five minutes each. Having discussed this with the Leader of the Opposition, I now propose eight minutes per group to be divided as the group wishes. The Tánaiste will be here to contribute to this discussion.

On Item 2, the Family Law Bill, I had not proposed any limits on speeches but perhaps we can talk to the Whips about that and agree half an hour per speaker. It is flexible at present as it is Second Stage of a Bill. On the statements on the meningitis outbreak. I am suggesting not more than ten minutes per speaker. There will be a sos.

We hope to take shortly the Civil Legal Aid Bill which is a Seanad Bill. The Taoiseach will be here this day week to introduce the lifting of the emergency regulation. On the question of flooding which was raised by a number of Senators last week, Senator Finneran in particular, I am proposing that we have a full debate on that next Thursday and attempt to look at some of the deeper causes of the recent spates of flooding.

Mr. Wright

As the Leader outlined, several Senators wished to contribute on Item 1 but we have come to an arrangement to share the eight minutes within the group. I note what the Leader said about next Wednesday. On the Northern Ireland issue, I take it that when the frame work document is produced this House will be afforded the opportunity of discussing it.

Finally, in the interest of transparency and openness, if any future Minister intends to leak information, may I suggest that the Seanad would be the ideal forum?

Mr. Norris

Hear. Hear.

Mr. Wright

This party would make itself available at any time.

Mr. O'Toole

To take up that point. I want to bring to the Leader's attention my concern that in my newspaper yesterday morning there were two, what appeared to be, typographical errors from the Budget Statement of yesterday afternoon.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the budget.

Mr. O'Toole

Perhaps a little more care could be taken on those issues.

Mr. Magner

We apologise on behalf of the Government.

Mr. O'Toole

I want to refer to the debate on Northern Ireland. We have spoken about this and the Leader indicated last week that he believed a debate before the framework document issued might not be helpful. I am not sure I fully go along with that. Much of this has to do with time. The framework document could be delayed. There is no doubt that each discussion that takes place in this House and everywhere else on the position of the ceasefire, developments and so on, brings all of us a little further down the road of understanding and hearing both points of view. There should be debates on a regular basis, and that was Senator Manning's opinion when in Opposition. If one had a debate every two months it would not happen at a time which might embarrass someone, either before or after the framework document, but it would be part of the normal process of discussion.

An Cathaoirleach

I appeal to Senators not to make speeches. I understand you have to make a brief introductory comment to the Leader, but we are prolonging the Order of Business by making unnecessary speeches.

Mr. Dardis

Were you anticipating what I was going to say? I ask the Leader if there will be a budget speech next year on the basis that it now seems to be surplus to requirements?

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point on the Order of Business.

Mr. Dardis

It was a question. As regards Item 1 on the Order of Business, is the Leader proposing that each group will take its eight minutes in a block?

Mr. Manning

No, it will go from one side of the House to the other.

Mr. Dardis

As regards Item 3, statements on the meningitis outbreak, I am pleased it is on the Order Paper because it is an important matter. However, the Leader should ensure that we are given adequate notice of when such items will be put on the Order Paper because it was late when we were told about it. I assume there will be a full debate next week on Item 6, which relates to the emergency legislation. It is desirable for the Leader to give advance notice of what will happen the following week and I thank him for that.

Mr. Fahey

I ask the Leader if it will be possible to make a statement today on the flooding problem because yesterday's Budget Statement suggests that farmers will not get any money to alleviate the problem. Compensation is one thing, but money must be provided to alleviate the same problems occurring next year in Galway. Many householders whose houses have been flooded — and I am sure many people saw it on television during the past few days — cannot get insurance. It appears they are not included in the compensation package announced in the budget. I ask the Leader if it will be possible to make a statement today clarifying those matters because many householders and farmers throughout the country, and especially in Galway, are discontented and frustrated.

Dr. Henry

Northern Ireland has already been mentioned and it is fair to say that we all recognise how important economic backup is to the peace initiative. I ask the Leader to ascertain what has happened to INTERREG II monies from the European Union. This is the inter-regional fund which allows money to be used for cross-Border community initiatives. I have been contacted by several groups of people who are trying to make cross-Border initiatives and to get information, but it is impossible to find out what will happen. The money from INTERREG I ran out some months ago.

Mr. Mooney

I thought Senator Henry was going to appropriate some of the INTERREG money to Dublin, but I am glad she said it was for people in the Border counties. I am sure the Leader will have the same information as I have on that matter.

As a student of constitutional politics — I do not wish to labour the point, and excuse the pun — does the Leader not think that the events of the last two days in relation to the budget have been extraordinary? As someone who grew up accepting that leaks were followed by resignations, and we remember the famous incident of the Chancellor of the Exchequer——

An Cathaoirleach

That is not relevant to this House or to the Order of Business.

Mr. Mooney

I ask the Leader to comment.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure he will reply.

Mr. Mooney

As an ordinary citizen, rather than a Senator. I am taken aback by the events of the last few days and I am anxious to know the Leader's view. I am sure that is a legitimate question.

Of more concern to me is the fact that the Holocaust will be disposed of in eight minutes. I applaud my colleague, Senator Norris, who initiated this debate, which was agreed by the Leader. As someone who has walked through some of the gas chambers of Europe, I am disappointed that the House should dispose of this matter in eight minutes.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader said that was arranged by agreement with the House.

Mr. Mooney

I am not casting aspersions——

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you.

Mr. Mooney

——but as you more than anyone are aware, a Chathaoirligh, the business of the House is set by the Leader. Ultimately whether there is agreement or not the Leader decides as he represents the Government. I raise this point because I feel strongly about it. This is penny pinching but then again, we have been living in a culture of penny pinching for the last 48 hours.

Mr. Mulcahy

I ask the Leader to make time available to discuss the content and implications of the President's address a week ago, "Cherishing the Irish Diaspora". We should consider this seriously because when the President addresses the Oireachtas she does so by virtue of a constitutional provision. It is not good enough to let such an address go unnoticed and undebated especially since all of us have relatives in different countries.

The President's speech was very interesting and if it falls on deaf ears here, her constitutional initiative will not have achieved the full success it could. Aside from any debate we may have on legislation to change the Constitution which will affect this House, we should make time available to discuss that address.

An Cathaoirleach

That would seem to be suitable for a Private Members' Time motion and you might discuss that with your group, Senator Mulcahy.

Mr. Finneran

I welcome the debate on meningitis. It is a matter of major public concern at this time. However I am disappointed at the downgrading of the debate on flooding. This issue was raised here three weeks ago by myself and others and the issue of Auschwitz was raised last week. It appears the debate on Auschwitz has taken precedence over the debate on flooding. In no way do I want to——

An Cathaoirleach

You are making a speech, Senator.

Mr. Finneran

I wish to ask the Leader why the debate on flooding was put back to next week. The events at Auschwitz happened 50 years ago and while it was a terrible event, part of the Holocaust——

An Cathaoirleach

You are definitely making a speech at this stage.

Mr. Finneran

I believe there is a reason — which is not being given to this House, that the flooding debate is not being taken today.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Finneran, please put your question to the Leader.

Mr. Finneran

I believe the Government parties are pandering to the Independents.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Finneran, please stop. You have had a good innings.

Mr. Sherlock

Respect the Chair.

Mr. Finneran

They have brought forward the debate although it is not urgent.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Finneran, you are making a speech.

Mr. Manning

On a point of order, I resent bitterly a suggestion that a discussion on Auschwitz is pandering to anyone. It is a proper subject for debate. The suggestion is outrageous.

Mr. Finneran

The Government parties are pandering to the Independents.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Finneran, I ask you to resume your seat.

Mr. Manning

That was a disgraceful contribution.

Mr. Cassidy

That is the Leader's opinion.

Mr. Norris

I was going to begin with a lighthearted remark but I do not think in the circumstances——

An Cathaoirleach

I wish you would

Mr. Norris

I was going to say I was glad you noticed my shy and shrinking signal to ask to contribute on the Order of Business.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris, I will always notice you. I had your name on my list.

Mr. Norris

I felt like Chesterton's definition of an oxymoron: "Truth standing on its head to attract attention".

I wish to distance myself from the atmosphere which erupted here some moments ago. It was most unseemly, mean-spirited and wrong. The remarks of two of my colleagues, although they appear to support my position, are not particularly welcome because they have misunderstood completely the position on the statements on Auschwitz.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris, you are making a speech.

Mr. Norris

Perhaps the Leader could confirm that it was intended to be a dignified commemoration of a world tragedy so that all sides of the House could collaborate in marking in a dignified sense something of which we as human beings are all ashamed. I agree with Senator Mulcahy that the President's address is worthy of analysis by this House. If he or his party should place such a motion on the Order Paper I will be happy to speak on it.

Finally, I wish to offer a friendly warning to the Leader of the House that he should not take the newspapers too seriously. They have referred to the Independent Whip. My friend and colleague, Senator O'Toole, is a modest and unassuming man——

Mr. Dardis

Withdraw that remark.

Mr. Norris

He knows that he is not a Whip and that we are Independents. I, in particular, have no party affiliations and nobody can deliver my vote——

An Cathaoirleach

This is not appropriate to the Order of Business; they are private arrangements.

Mr. Norris

I intend to vote on principle as an Independent. I look forward to being placed in the same position as under the previous Government where I supported it on the majority of occasions.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris, you are making a speech.

Mr. Norris

However, I am an Independent.

An Cathaoirleach

Senators should direct their queries to the Leader of the House and refrain from making speeches.

Mr. Lanigan

I agree that we should have a debate on flooding as soon as possible. We should not get caught up this morning in comparing the need for a debate on flooding with the desperate need for statements on Auschwitz. It is an insult to the House to compare the two. While there are problems with flooding, to compare what happened in Auschwitz with such problems is a disgrace.

We should have a debate on the budgetary implications for people who have suffered as a result of flooding. People in the farming community should be compensated in some way for their losses. However, we should not forget that businesses in urban areas have been wiped out, or virtually wiped out, because of flooding and we must address that aspect in addition to the implications of flooding for the farming community. There should be balance; urban dwellers have an equal right to compensation.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is making a speech. Ask a question of the Leader.

Mr. Lanigan

I seek an early debate on the flooding issue. The second item I wish to mention is a matter of a major importance and arises from the Budget Statement yesterday. I ask the Leader of the House to have an early debate on overseas aid. The budget provides for changes which could have major positive implications as a result of tax concessions for donations made to specified aid agencies. The difficulty I envisage is that the specified aid agencies could become political in a certain sense. The Minister for Health in Rwanda was here yesterday and——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Lanigan, you are going on at length on this issue. I am sure the Leader will take it on board.

Mr. Lanigan

I ask the Leader to have a debate on this issue as a matter of urgency because aid is one of the most political issues in the world. It has overtaken arms in importance and the political application of aid throughout the world is a matter we should discuss.

Mr. Roche

I welcome the debate on Auschwitz. It is important that at regular intervals democratic institutions mark the worst horror that one section of the human race has ever inflicted upon another. The debate is timely. In order to avoid the type of squabbling we have witnessed, would it be possible for the House to meet more regularly? Meeting for one day this week and one and a half days last week is bound to cause scheduling problems. If we agreed to more regular meetings such unwelcome comparisions would not be made.

Ms Kelly

Nineteen ninety four was the Year of the Family and we let it pass without a debate on the family. In view of the commitment to the family expressed in the budget I ask the Leader to hold a debate on the family in Irish society.

Mr. R. Kiely

I ask for a debate on flooding as I have received inquiries from my constituents on this matter. Will the Leader of the House indicate when such a debate will take place? I agree with Senator Mooney that after the serious and damaging leak yesterday resignations should follow.

Mr. Manning

I agree with Senator Wright that a debate on Northern Ireland should wait until the framework document's is published, but there will be a debate very soon after that. We will consider Senator O'Toole's point regarding ongoing debates on Northern Ireland in the next couple of weeks to see if something can be done to make that possible.

Senator Dardis raised the point of the late notice being given for statements to be made on the meningitis issue. The request was raised in the House last Thursday. I made immediate attempts to have a debate, but I only got word last Monday that it was possible, and I let Members know as quickly as possible about it.

The question of flooding has been raised by a number of Members. The reason the debate is not taking place today is that the two Ministers most directly involved are on full duty in the other House because of the budget. It will take place next Thursday I indicated, when this matter was first raised, that perhaps the most useful contribution we could make is not to hold a kind of fire fighting debate, but to have a deeper look at the entire problem. We will have a chance to do this next week and I will not be imposing a time limit, within reason, on this debate.

Senator Mooney raised a number of questions; perhaps he and Senator Finneran might talk to each other about their priorities on this matters. We will try to be as flexible as we can on Auschwitz but, as has been stated, it was intended as a simple statement from all sides of the House to commemorate the horrors of that epoch. The answer to the Senator's other question is yes.

Senator Mulcahy mentioned the President's address last week. As the Cathaoirleach said if the Senator wishes to devote Private Members' time to the matter I have no objection. However, at present I have not intention of making time available. I thought the issue was well ventilated last week; we may find some other way to proceed in a few weeks or months.

Regarding the issue of overseas aid raised by Senator Lanigan, there is an intention, perhaps even next week, to have a discussion on this issue. That will be proceeded with speedily. I agree with Senator Roche that the House should and will meet more often but I would remind him that this is the first year in which the House has sat during budget week for quite some time.

Mr. Cassidy

First time in the Senator's time.

Mr. Lanigan

As Leader of the House.

Mr. Manning

However, I take the Senator's point and the House will meet as often as he wishes. Senator's Kelly's suggestion that we have a debate on the family in Irish society is worthwhile and we will talk about it later.

Order of Business agreed to.