The time limit for this debate is 15 minutes for spokespersons and ten minutes for other Senators. Before we proceed, I take this opportunity to welcome a former Member of the Seanad. Deputy Jim Higgins, who is now the Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibilities for the Office of Public Works, to the House. I congratulate the Minister and wish him well in his new portfolio.
Flood Damage: Statements.
Thank you. Chairman, for your kind and generous remarks. It is nice to be back in my alma mater where I began my Oireachtas career. I had a happy four years and eight months in this House and many of those who were Members with me in the early to mid 1980s are still Members.
It is with rather mixed emotions that I come to address the House today. It is, of course, an honour to address the House on such an important subject as the recent flooding and I am delighted to have the opportunity to do so. I am, however, very conscious of the hardship that has been caused to a great many people all around the country by the flooding and I take this opportunity to assure them of my concern and that of the Government for their plight. I also feel a serious responsibility to do all in my power to ensure that everything possible will be done to protect those worst affected in the future.
I spent a considerable amount of last Monday in the south Galway area where I saw the devastation and hardship that has been caused by the flooding in the wake of the recent bad weather. I have always been a believer in the benefits of river drainage, but I came away from south Galway last Monday more convinced than ever of the importance of having a sensible policy towards river drainage and of the necessity for a coherent programme of work to try to prevent flooding. The Government decided last week to establish an interdepartmental committee to co-ordinate its response to the effects of the recent severe flooding in both urban and rural areas. The collection of the necessary information to enable the committee to perform its task effectively has already been initiated.
It will be my privilege, as Minister of State at the Department of Finance, to chair that interdepartmental committee. The members of the committee will be drawn from the Departments which may have any role to play in the delivering of an effective response to the hardships and losses sustained by a great many people in recent weeks. I am determined to ensure that the committee will be effective, will also be seen to be so and that it will produce results quickly in so far as that is possible.
I want to assure this House that, as stated in the Dáil, the Government is extremely concerned at the whole range of problems experienced by people living in areas affected by flooding in recent weeks. Everyone will have seen the pictures in the newspapers and, most graphically, on television of the areas covered in water, houses and business premises flooded in some cases to very considerable depths, impassable roads causing tremendous inconvenience and, of course, sizeable areas of agricultural land inundated.
Deputy Hogan, when Minister of State at the Department of Finance, visited some of the worst affected areas with Office of Public Works officials to see the problem at first hand. Indeed, as early as Monday, 9 January, he visited Newport, Cappamore, Sixmilebridge and Gort, all of which were badly affected. As I mentioned, I, and my colleagues in Government, have been kept fully appraised of the situation around the country by Deputies and Senators from the areas affected. I have also had the advantage of a briefing from my officials on the situation based on preliminary reports from their regional offices and on the situation outlined by Deputies in the Dáil during Private Members' Business last week.
Three fundamental problems can be identified. The first is related to the capacity of our rivers to discharge very heavy and intense rainfall. The second is the addition of the effect of high tides and prevailing winds on such discharges. The third relates to the unique problems of the south Galway area where the karstitic limestone with swallow holes is unable to discharge the rainfall.
The Government has decided, in the light of all the information that has been made available, that it is necessary at this stage to have a coherent co-ordinated response to the problems now facing individuals and communities in the aftermath of the flooding. The interdepartmental committee which I will chair is the vehicle which will oversee that response and will co-ordinate the inputs from the various Departments and agencies which have responsibilities in this area.
I want at this stage to pay tribute to those who have, so to speak, been in the front line dealing with the immediate impact of the flooding. Many people from a whole range of services have responded magnificently to meet the needs of those affected. While it is probably invidious to mention any particular group. I feel it is only fair to acknowledge the sterling work done by the staff of the various local authorities at all levels, the Garda, the fire services, the Civil Defence, the Army and Air Corps and, of course, the invaluable assistance lent by the many friends and neighbours to those less fortunate than themselves.
I will now turn to the work which the interdepartmental committee will do in the coming weeks and months. There are two aspects of the flooding that must be considered; compensation where that is appropriate and the implementation of measures to try to mitinate gate, wherever possible, the effects of flooding due to adverse weather conditions in the future. I am happy to assure the House that the Government will seek funds to assist those who have suffered losses from noninsurable risks as a result of flooding. I intend as a matter of urgency to approach the EU Commission to seek assistance from the fund which is being established to assist victims of the flooding which recently occurred throughout the European Union.
The House will be aware that a provision of £2 million was made in the budget to deal with the effects of the flooding in the agricultural area, particularly loss of fodder and livestock. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry has indicated that he is having comprehensive reports on the situation prepared by his advisers. The Minister also issued an open invitation to farmers who were experiencing problems to write to his Department and promised his full personal support and that of the Department for the work of the inter-departmental committee. The damage to county roads was another issue which emerged clearly as a cause of concern in the debate in the other House. Here again the House will be aware that the measures announced in the budget included funding to deal with this aspect of the problem.
I hope the establishment of the inter-departmental committee, with the financial provisions which have been made and to which I just referred, will be seen and acknowledged by all sides as demonstrating the Government's awareness of the seriousness of the situation and an indication of its genuine care and concern for those who suffered and continue to suffer. It is my intention, through the work of the inter-departmental committee, to deliver a flexible and imaginative response to the undoubted problems caused by the flooding.
It is vital, in addition to dealing with the immediate aftermath of the flooding, to also take steps to try to prevent a recurrence of at least the most severe aspects of the kind we witnessed in the past month. While precise data is not yet available, preliminary returns make it clear that in many areas rainfall for January was close to or above twice the normal levels for the month. Rivers in many cases have been unable to cope with the exceptionally large volumes of water which have been discharging into them, with the result that lands and premises have been inundated.
While the exceptionally heavy rainfall has clearly been the main cause of the recent flooding, it is also clear that the accelerated rate of run-off water from hard surfaces associated with development has been a contributory factor. The fact that in some cases houses have been built below the flood level of nearby rivers has also given rise to flooding on this and previous occasions. We must look closely at all the factors which have contributed to the recent flooding to see what lessons need to be learned for the future.
It is worth mentioning that areas which have benefited from drainage works under the Arterial Drainage Act. 1945, appear, by and large, not to have been affected by the flooding and where they were the floods subsided much more quickly than elsewhere. There are those who see no merit in drainage work but this most recent experience provides an effective answer to such sceptics. I am satisfied there is a valuable role for prudent drainage work.
The House will be aware that the Office of Public Works is empowered to undertake drainage works under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. This Act has always been interpreted as only conveying power to deal with drainage on a complete catchment basis. The Act was introduced in response to the findings of the Browne Drainage Commission which sat from 1938-40. Among its many important findings, the Browne Commission found that much of the drainage work which had been undertaken previously on a piecemeal basis merely shifted the problem from one area to another because of the failure to take account of the effect of the improvements elsewhere throughout the river catchment.
It recommended that future schemes to be designed should take into account the effect of works throughout the entire river catchment. To date that has been done by draining entire catchments. I am satisfied that the key recommendation of the Browne Commission can be observed while at the same time undertaking more limited localised and, therefore, less costly schemes. Proposals have been prepared by the Office of Public Works which will achieve that objective and create a more realistic possibility of undertaking viable drainage work where it is vitally necessary for the future.
Since the enactment of the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, 40 schemes have been completed. The major benefit from catchment drainage schemes has arisen from the improvement of agricultural land either through bringing additional land, previously unusable because of the extent of flooding or waterlogging, into production or increasing the productivity of land through improved drainage. It is an unfortunate reality that the current EU policy of limiting or discouraging production of many agricultural products, which are already in surplus in the union, has had a drastic effect in reducing the value of increased agricultural output and as a consequence there is at present little prospect of devising a catchment drainage scheme which will give a positive or even a break even cost-benefit ratio when it is subjected to economic analysis.
This difficulty is graphically illustrated by the fact that schemes recently designed for the Mulcair river in counties Tipperary and Limerick and the Arrow and Owenmore rivers in Sligo have so far proved to be economically unviable despite the closest consultation between the Commissioners of Public Works and the local drainage action committees to ensure that all possible benefits are included in the assessment. The Commissioners of Public Works have always acknowledged that, despite the outcome of the economic analysis, there are areas within both catchments where there are unacceptable levels of flooding on a regular basis. This point was very dramatically underlined in the most recent flooding by the problems experienced in Cappamore, County Limerick in the Mulcair catchment. The situation there is unacceptable by any standards. Regular flooding of houses in particular is unacceptable and I am anxious that steps are taken to minimise its incidence.
The Commissioners of Public Works are powerless at present to undertake work for the relief of localised flooding, which the most recent events have clearly shown to be necessary. Local authorities have some statutory powers in this area but for a variety of valid reasons only fairly minor schemes have been undertaken by them. Many river catchments cross county boundaries. Consequently the effect of any remedial measures to deal with flooding problems generally impact on several local authorities' functional areas, making it virtually impossible for a single authority to take effective action.
The Office of Public Works has the expertise and the countrywide organisation required to undertake effective schemes to alleviate the worst effects of localised flooding. Proposals have been prepared by the Office of Public Works for the amendment of the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, to provide it with the necessary powers to undertake work for the relief of localised flooding by rivers. I met the Minister for Finance today and I am confident that the proposals will shortly be cleared by him for submission to the Government. It has of course been agreed by the Government that there will be a Supplementary Estimate for the Office of Public Works in 1995 to deal with expenditure on works and investigations to deal with the relief of flooding.
I want to refer specifically to the situation in south Galway, which is unique in at least two respects, first, the geological formation of the area and, secondly, the likelihood that the flooding will remain for a much longer period than elsewhere with the result that people will remain evacuated from their homes and continue to experience the various hardships associated with flooding.
As I said, the geological formation here is unique, involving a system of swallow holes, turloughs, rivers that suddenly disappear underground, where their course subsequently is sometimes uncertain, and lakes which disappear and reappear. There is no clear river course which can be studied as in a normal situation to identify where blockages occur, the appropriate remedial action and its consequences.
The area has been the subject of much study for a variety of reasons but, to date, no reasonable solution to flooding has been devised. I am determined, having seen the widespread problems in the area, to try to establish once and for all whether there is a viable solution to these problems. I have, therefore, decided to commission, as a matter of urgency, a major engineering, hydrogeological and environmental study of the area to determine, if possible, the causes of the problems and to identify and evaluate potential solutions. There will be general agreement that this must be approached with a view to finding long term solutions. A quick fix is unlikely to suffice. The wrong solution could threaten the ecological balance of the area. Recent experience of flooding in Europe has shown that some local solutions may store up problems for areas downstream. That is very much in evidence in Germany and the Netherlands.
On the general issue of flood relief the first thing that must be done before an effective scheme can be designed for flood defences, or indeed for any purpose, is the collection of relevant data to define the nature and extent of the requirements. The Commissioners of Public Works, as part of their remit, collect a sizeable amount of data. Other information is available from local authorities and the Environmental Protection Agency. The Commissioners of Public Works, in consultation with the Department of the Environment, have compiled a list of 90 urban areas known to experience periodic flooding.
There is insufficient data in respect of many of these areas or in respect of some rural areas which are subject to flooding where flood defence works might be an appropriate solution to enable definitive decisions to be taken or where appropriate designs are to be prepared. The Commissioners of Public Works are examining as a matter of the utmost urgency the steps necessary to collect the data required. The data would be used with other relevant criteria to draw up a priority list of works which could form the basis of a flood defence scheme programme to be implemented on a phased basis.
I realise that the prospect of drainage works being done throughout the country would cause concern to some people who would regard some of the arterial drainage schemes undertaken in the past as having been, to say the least, environmentally insensitive. I assure anyone who feels such concern, that any works carried out would be to the highest possible standards and would enhance, rather than detract from, the environment. I invite anyone having such concerns to look at any of the work undertaken by the Office of Public Works in recent years and to see the standard of excellence to which that office aspires.
I know that fisheries interests in particular become nervous at the mention of engineering works in rivers and waterways, but I have no doubt that such interests, too, will be fully reassured by the excellent track record of the Office of Public Works in recent years where, in conjunction with the central and regional fisheries boards and local angling clubs, their schemes are invariably tailored to enhance rather than impair fisheries. The work of the Office of Public Works in rehabilitating fishery stretches in rivers is recognised as being of the highest quality. I am confident that angling and other interested bodies will have no difficulty in working with the Office of Public Works to ensure that their views are taken into account in the design and execution of schemes.
I am realistic enough to appreciate that, given the complexities of the problems now facing us, there will be areas where we may be able to offer little or no assistance. There may be other areas where we will not be able to meet the full aspirations of individuals, communities or interest groups. Indeed, we may even have to grapple with conflicts of interest as our work progresses.
At this stage I simply want to assure the House and everyone who has suffered hardship as a result of the flooding that the Government is concerned about the problems and is anxious to respond to them as effectively as possible. It will now be my task and that of all Departments participating in the interdepartmental committee to try to find solutions that will reflect that deep sense of care and concern, and will at the same time be prudent and realistic while also being speedy, flexible and not unduly restrictive. It is indeed a very complex, multi-faceted and difficult task we are undertaking but I am confident that with the full backing and support of the Government we can achieve worthwhile results for the victims of the flooding.
In summary, I propose four measures in response to the recent flooding. First, to deliver a satisfactory response through the inter-departmental committee; second, to undertake a major study in the south Galway area; third, to expedite the proposals to amend the Arterial Drainage Act; and finally, subject to the enactment of this legislation, to commence a number of schemes.
I congratulate the new Minister on his appointment and wish him well. From my experience of dealing with the Office of Public Works' personnel, the Minister can be assured of having a very competent and reliable staff at his disposal. The Minister can also be assured that, with our support as well, we can get satisfactory solutions to some of the problems that have now arisen.
Recent extreme weather conditions have starkly focused public attention on the necessity of dealing with a variety of problems, including flooding and erosion, which to a large extent have been awaiting action for a number of years. While the Minister has given assurances, the general public wants to see immediate, speedy action to deal with these problems.
While this committee is a welcome development and will certainly co-ordinate activities between various Departments, the time for committees is long past. The time has come for action to deal with problems that have created hardship, misery and inconvenience for thousands of people suffering severe losses in many parts of the country, some of which have been flooded successively over a number of years. Many communities in the areas affected feel that the Government has totally neglected their problems. They feel hopeless and abandoned.
I have some photographs which I will give to the Minister afterwards and which show the damage done along the west coast of Clare. The Minister is fully aware because his colleague, the previous Minister, visited Sixmilebridge and knew what was happening there. In addition, the problem of coastal erosion extends to Ballyvaughan and the Shannon estuary. Up to 100 areas have been seriously affected by severe flooding of short duration, and their communities feel that the problems can only be resolved by Government action.
The first matter that needs to be dealt with, and which the Minister referred to in his contribution, is the desirability of clearing up the uncertainty over responsibility for these incidents. In the past when flooding took place there was a lack of acceptance of responsibility by many agencies and local authorities. Some of the schemes which were damaged and resulted in flooding were carried out under the old Local Authorities' Works Act. Others were undertaken by the Land Commission in partnership with the farmers. The Minister is aware that things have changed. The Land Commission has been abolished and changes in the rating system have effectively left local authorities with insufficient funding to enable works to be carried out.
The Arterial Drainage Act, 1945 needs to be amended urgently thus giving the Commissioners of Public Works power to relieve and prevent flooding in particular areas. Because of my experience as a former Minister responsible for the Office of Public Works, I have been able to draft a Bill with the aid of my colleagues in the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party — which I have now tabled — to amend the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. This would give the necessary authority to the Commissioners of Public Works and would clear up misunderstandings and the inability of agencies, and public bodies to accept responsibility and it will provide the Commissioners of Public Works with the statutory authority to take special flooding precautions and provide measures to deal with the localised flooding within a catchment area.
The Bill I have tabled, for which we will be seeking Government time, includes a provision that the commissioners would take account of the impact which measures to relieve flooding would have on other areas. The Minister also referred to that. It must be taken into account because too often when action was taken, it had an adverse effect on some other part of the catchment. It is important that commissioners take account of the full catchment area.
It is vitally important that provision is made for the payment of compensation to people who have been seriously affected by the recent damage. The Bill I have tabled provides that people would apply to a committee. I hope we will have an opportunity to debate that Bill here. The committee would examine applications from individuals who claim loss or damage.
The Minister announced that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry has been given £2 million to deal with problems in the agricultural area. However, a number of householders who did not have insurance or were not adequately covered find themselves in a serious position following damage to property. The Minister is aware of this. I am sure he is familiar with cases where people had to move out of their homes. Some of them are still in bed-and-breakfast esbalishments and do not have alternative accommodation. As mentioned, the foundations of the houses are now threatened by the continuous flooding especially in areas such as the Burren and other areas in south Galway about which Senator Fahey will speak.
My Bill also seeks to ensure consultation with the Minister for the Marine in the matter of avoiding damage to fisheries which are important and have a big impact in many local areas. The Bill also seeks to ensure consultation with the Environmental Protection Agency. It is becoming increasingly necessary to keep in mind the impact that schemes of this nature have on the environment.
I must put on record that in the past, while the Commissioners of Public Works did not have to comply with the Fisheries Acts, they always took account of the environmental impact and of the impact any of their arterial drainage schemes would have on fisheries. They were careful and conducted close consultations which they want to see continued. In local areas where immediate remedial action is required, it is necessary that consultation continue at the closest level between the Minister's Department, officials from the Department of the Marine and its Minister and the Environmental Protection Agency.
An acute problem which I endeavour to address is the inadequacy of the old local authorities works legislation which dates from 1949. It was mentioned by the Minister but has not, to a large extent, been used. The Coastal Protection Act gave responsibility but not power to the Minister for the Marine. While I appreciate that it would involve an amount of work, there is a real urgency in coastal areas. The Board of Works must be enabled to undertake small remedial works on sluices which have broken down and an old culverts which are damaged due to flooding and extreme weather conditions and which have caused untold hardship for people.
Work on embankments and other localised developments were undertaken in the past by the Land Commission mainly in co-operation with the farming communities. These are now neglected because the Land Commission no longer exists. They are likely to be more damaged in the next year or two. If the extreme weather conditions experienced this year are repeated for a further two or three years, it is possible that the bill for the damage caused by the flooding of private dwellings and farms, especially in the most isolated coastal communities, will run into millions. Remedial action must be taken soon to deal with these problems. I urge the Minister, in dealing with these matters, to look carefully at the problems of the coastal communities.
Estuaries have been badly damaged. I can indicate places such as Leadmore in the Shannon Estuary where whole fields were washed away because protective walls built in the 1930s and 1940s were not maintained. The councils cannot maintain them as they do not have the finances. The resulting damage will be multiplied to such an extent that it will be almost impossible to deal with it. It will cost hundreds of millions of pounds to carry out work which could be done now at a relatively smaller cost. It is necessary to clear up the question as to whose responsibility this is. The body with the most legislative powers to deal with the problem is the Commissioners of Public Works. The Commissioners of Public Works have the valuable hydrometric data, regional offices and staff who are familiar with the problems. They have been dealing with them on a catchment basis. The Mulcair, for instance, has not been drained because of the cost benefit analysis problem. Nevertheless officials and engineering staff of the Commissioners of Public Works are fully familiar with flash flooding on the Mulcair. That body is best suited to this work.
Changes are taking place in the arterial drainage system. The arterial drainage legislation was originally designed for a huge catchment area. Undertaking a major drainage project increased the agricultural value of property at a time when, at both national and European Community level, the tendency was towards putting down a marker in relation to further development in agriculture.
The existing expertise, talent, professionalism and legislative framework coupled with the Bill I am tabling today would enhance the commissioners. They would be in the best possible position to deal with the problems we have had. The issues raised over this winter were to a large extent focused because of extreme weather conditions. However, it is an ongoing problem which needs remedial attention and urgent Government action.
I wish the Minister well in his work. He indicated that a Supplementary Estimate will be introduced. He might indicate how much will be allocated. I am not happy about setting up a further priority list. I deliberately decided in the Bill I circulated not to include a priority list or Schedule. The Commissioners of Public Works in consultation with the Minister are in the best possible position to decide the priority, and to a large extent the priority will be determined by weather conditions or the urgency of a particular problem.
We had an unsatisfactory experience with the old Schedule and priority list under the arterial drainage legislation. We should get away from that and leave out any consideration of a schedule of specified identified areas because there will always be something that will not be covered in a schedule. For instance, the problem of the washing away of a whole road in west Clare could never be identified in a schedule. We all know there are problems from Youghal to Donegal and from Arklow to Ennis. It would be unwise to identify these in a schedule or on a priority list because that would tie our hands and we would not be in a position to deal with urgent problems at any location.
I assure the Minister of our support but the people are unhappy. More action was taken in the 1930s and 1940s to deal with flooding than has been taken today. This is shameful, particularly when more revenue and machinery are available and there is good will in the communities to co-operate with the local authorities and the Minister. They expect more than they got from the Minister this afternoon.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Higgins, to the House. He spent a few happy years here and I am sure he does not hope to come back. I wish him well in his new portfolio. I spent many years on Mayo County Council with him. I know his capabilities and he will do an excellent job. He has responsibility for the Office of Public Works, a position which the late Mr. Henry Kenny from Mayo also held. I have no doubt the Minister will excel in that area.
I congratulate him on the fact that he visited the different flooded areas so soon after his appointment. He said he had visited south Galway, which was featured on the television over the past number of weeks.
He said that when he visited the Galway area he became convinced of the importance of having a sensible policy towards river drainage and of the necessity for a coherent programme of work to try to prevent flooding. The Government's response to the effects of the recent severe flooding in both urban and rural areas is to establish and interdepartmental committee. The Minister said that its members would be drawn from all Departments which may have a role to play in delivering an effective response to the hardships and losses sustained by many people in recent weeks. I welcome this development. I have no doubt the Minister has his finger firmly on the button, although he is in the Department such a short time, and that he knows the problems in those areas through his experience as a member of the local authority.
He needs to press the button.
We must acknowledge that flooding is not new, that it has not only happened this year or this month. Flooding has occurred for a number of years and has had disastrous effects on parts of the country during the mid-1980s and early 1990s. It is heartening to note that the Government has decided, in the light of all the information available, that it is necessary at this stage to have a coherent co-ordinated response to the problems now facing individuals and communities in the aftermath of the flooding. The interdepartmental committee, which the Minister will chair, is the vehicle which will oversee that response and will co-ordinate the inputs from the various Departments and agencies which have responsibilities in this area.
The Minister also said that the inter-departmental committee will consider two aspects of the flooding over the coming months, compensation where appropriate and the implementation of measures to try to mitigate, wherever possible, the effects of flooding due to adverse weather conditions. These people must be compensated and the Minister is right to address these issues.
People in many areas are suffering great hardship. When property is flooded it can cause severe problems for families who may have to move into caravans or other temporary accommodation. The Minister must be complimented for addressing this issue but he must have a long term strategy to alleviate flooding.
He pointed out the disaster areas and told us about his visit to south Galway. A number of areas in County Mayo need attention. There is an ongoing problem in the Ballinrobe area in particular which has been addressed to some extent by Mayo County Council. I am sure the Minister will look at the south Mayo area and I ask him to consider McHale Road in the Castlebar urban area where there has been flooding recently. This has caused hardship to the people living there. However, this is a new flooding area, and I would like the Minister to consider these two areas of County Mayo.
The Minister indicated his intention, through the work of the interdepartmental committee, to deliver a flexible and imaginative response to the undoubted problems caused by the flooding. He also said that the Office of Public Works has both the expertise and the countrywide organisation required to undertake effective schemes to alleviate the worst effects of localised flooding. Proposals have been prepared by the Office of Public Works for the amendment of the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, to provide them with the necessary powers to undertake work for the relief of localised flooding by rivers.
He said he met the Minister for Finance today and that he is confident the proposals will shortly be cleared by him for submission to the Government. It has been agreed by the Government that there will be a Supplementary Estimate for the Office of Public Works in 1995 to deal with expenditure on works and investigations to deal with the relief of flooding. I welcome this development and I am delighted with the proposals to amend the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. The Minister is right to say that the Office of Public Works has the expertise to carry out these works. However, it should work more closely with local authorities because their engineering force has the expertise and information on areas affected by flooding.
The Minister also stated that he has decided to commission, as a matter of urgency, a major engineering, hydrogeological and environmental study of the area to determine, if possible, the causes of the problems and to identify and evaluate potential solutions. I also welcome this move because there is no short-term answer to flooding. This problem has been raised at local authority meetings throughout the country and is a part of political life. The Minister pointed out that there is no short term solution to this problem. I am glad a committee will be established to carry out this study and to evaluate the solutions.
The Minister said he has four ideas to put forward: first, to deliver a satisfactory response through the interdepartmental committee; second, to undertake a major study in the south Galway area — Senator Fahey will be delighted with that and probably more will accompany it——
It will not take the water down from the window sills.
——third, proposals to amend the Arterial Drainage Act, which is also welcome; and fourth, the enactment of legislation and preparation of a number of schemes. Any scheme will be appreciated, wherever it is started, because it will take another area out of trouble. Rome was not built in a day and it will take a number of years to alleviate all the flooding.
We can talk as long as we like about flooding in the length and breadth of the country but we should draw attention to the county roads. Undoubtedly over the last weeks and months severe damage has been done to the structure of the county road network. We are not receiving major funding for those roads, unlike the national road network for which money is available from Europe. Remedial funds should be dispersed through the local authorities so that immediate repair works can be carried out to the county roads to prevent further damage. Many of them are in a deplorable state.
This is an urgent matter and the Minister is aware that in our county the state of a number of roads need tackling immediately. Some have been washed away by the floods and severe damage has been done to others. Funding is required over and above the normal allocation. I ask him to provide funds for my county as soon as possible.
I wish the Minister well in his new portfolio. I am delighted with his immediate response to the problem caused by the severe flooding. He has acted responsibly and with haste. If he continues in that vein he will do an excellent job.
I join with the other Senators in welcoming the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, to the Seanad and I wish him good luck in his post. I know he will do a good job because he is a concerned person. Deputy Hogan deserves credit for the enthusiasm with which he started this work, and I am sorry he had to resign as he did. I hope he returns to high office before long.
The Minister said a Supplementary Estimate for the Office of Public Works would be introduced in 1995; that is welcome. Can he say what size that Estimate will be or if that has been decided?
It has not been decided. It will be calculated on the basis of the information now being evaluated as to how serious matters are.
Many people I represent in south Galway say the water level is up to their kitchen tops, they have had to leave their houses for the last three weeks and may not return for up to ten weeks. This is the third time this has happened to some people in the last number of years. Farmers have been completely cut off and have land underwater since before Christmas — last year it was submerged from January to July and the same will probably happen this July.
I want to express the frustration felt by those people but the Minister and his officials in the Office of Public Works are limited in what they can do to respond to those problems. I expected the Minister to be more forthright and to tell those people specifically what will be done and I ask him to do that now. I hope he can tell those whose houses are underwater for six weeks and cannot get insurance because this is the second time it has happened, that they will be compensated in the package of measures he will bring forward. As to those farmers whose land was underwater for many months last year, and are again, surely the Minister should give them compensation over and above the limited criteria outlined in the budget. If a person from our party was sitting in the Minister's seat, I would say the same. I wish to be fair because this is far too important an issue with which to play politics.
Since last April I have worn a path to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, the Department of Finance and the Office of Public Works to get some action in response to what happened last year. The Office of Public Works officials were most understanding and anxious to help but the response from officials of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry was the exact opposite.
I brought three deputations from the IFA in south Galway to that Department. I received a commitment from the Minister for Finance to give money to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry in an Estimate if that Department made a proposal in that area. The officials in that Department refused to help alleviate the problems. We were given excuses, such as that last year's rain was part of a 500 year cycle so it would probably not be as bad for another 500 years.
This is a new Minister and he should be warned that if he tackles the problem the Civil Service way he will get nowhere. I ask him to take the initiative. He has outlined a number of steps but forming a committee will not help solve the problem. I appreciate there must be co-ordination but I ask him to give the committee one month to come up with proposals.
He told us he is prepared to amend the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945. That is a welcome development and we realise that must be done before he can take further action. In an all-party spirit I ask him to introduce the legislation in the Seanad next week or alternatively allow the Bill Senator Daly has circulated to progress to Committee Stage. Whatever amendments or further proposals are needed can be introduced as we go along. This must be done immediately and if we wait for legislation to take its normal course we will not make much progress.
I agree the planning of works must be done carefully but the Office of Public Works or the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry will not solve the problems in south Galway. The only people who will solve the problems in south Galway are the farmers in that area with the support of the Office of Public Works, the local authority and the Department of Agriculture.
The way forward is in line with the proposal made by the south Galway IFA last year — that money be made available for a local co-operative effort, involving local farmers and landowners, to carry out remedial works to tackle the worst effects of the flooding. It is vitally important before any such work is carried out that it be properly planned, that people who are affected would be consulted and that agreement is reached among all concerned.
There is controversy at present in south Galway about work that is being carried out. While I support that type of initiative, we must first plan such work; it must be agreed by the people concerned and finance must be provided for it. Was that done in this case? Has money been provided for the works, because we have been told by a member of the Minister's party that the Government has approved the provision of the money required? It is not good enough to commence work in the hope that money will become available and in the hope that the work being carried out will be successful, that is, that it will drain all the land and not drain some land and flood other land nearby. I would like to be given confirmation regarding the situation of those works, whether moneys have been approved for them or if they are simply a stab in the dark. I support the initiative. It has alleviated flooding in one area. If it could be continued and if the rest of the work is planned and carried out properly, it would certainly be a good initiative.
Another study in south Galway is not necessary. A study was carried out by Donal Daly — the geological survey of south Galway — under the auspices of the Department of Energy a few years ago. A comprehensive study was also carried out by an engineer from the Office of Public Works last year. Michael Collins did an intensive study of last year's flooding in south Galway for the 1994 report and he suggested a number of solutions. While we will need further hydrological studies, we already know what is necessary in south Galway. The swallow holes and the water courses must be cleaned. This undoubtedly would reduce the level of flooding. There is a major swallow hole close to my home and one can see around the trees where the flooding was at its highest. Plastic bags and other debris caught up in the flood are being carried into the swallow hole. The efficiency of the swallow holes in absorbing the water has been seriously impaired. Michael Collins said in his report last year that superficial cleaning of the swallow holes would vastly improve their efficiency.
What is needed in south Galway is money. The Office of Public Works must be given the power to be supportive of the local authority and the local community getting together to tackle this job. If the bureaucracy has anything to do with this I will be standing in this Chamber again this time next year with nothing done. I ask the new Minister, without any disrespect to his officials, to take the bull by the horns on this matter. I hope he will be back here next week to initiate this legislation. He cergeologica tainly will receive support from this side of the House.
I welcome the Minister to the House. I thank the engineering staff and the workers of Carlow County Council for the wonderful work they did during the flood. It was appreciated by everybody in Carlow town.
Flooding is not new. The recent flooding was the result of abnormal rainfall in December and January. The amount of rainfall in those two months was almost double the normal amount. In the past few years serious flooding has occurred in Carlow town and in Leighlinbridge. A number of farms in the area have also been flooded. The N80, which brings traffic from the midlands to Rosslare, has had to be closed on several occasions and the alternative roads used by the heavy lorries are not suitable for such traffic. That is causing terrible problems. The traffic problems will be rectified when the proposed new bridge, over the Barrow at Sleaty is put in place. While many people have been talking about this bridge, it is worth mentioning that Deputy Harney held up its construction for two years when she established a committee. Deputy Michael Smith delayed its construction for another two years — he refused to sign the order. I understand that the present Minister, Deputy Howlin, has signed the compulsory purchase order for the provision of the bridge and that the provision of this bridge is now a priority for the National Roads Authority. In the interest of fair play, if Deputy Howlin does not make significant progress in two years I will add his name to those of the previous Ministers who delayed construction of the bridge.
The problem of flooding in Carlow can be solved, but it will cost a lot of money. The county engineer prepared a report which is at present with the Department of the Environment. It contains proposals for retaining walls and other small works which would prevent small floods and would lessen the effect of large floods. That work would cost approximately £200,000. The proposals should be considered as a matter of urgency. To deal with the problem properly a storm water system for Carlow town would be required. This would cost approximately £5 million. Proposals for such a system are with the Department of the Environment. I call on the Minister to examine them as a matter of urgency in the context of EC moneys which might be made available.
It would appear that there is a build up of silt on a stretch of the River Barrow between Bessfield and Milford. The silt is almost four feet deep in places. It is causing a hump on the bed of the river and is one of the main causes of the flooding in Carlow. Many people say that they know what causes the silt, although I do not know. It will be a major job to remove the silt. I understand that discussions are taking place between Carlow UDC and the Office of Public Works about this problem and that there might be some results of those discussions in the near future. The Office of Public Works has recently spent a great deal of money on interpretative centres, although we hear that people did not want or like such centres.
Some of them.
I assure the Minister that if equivalent amounts of money were spent in Carlow the people there would erect a statue in his honour. The Minister's immediate predecessor, Deputy Phil Hogan, who is an excellent TD for the Carlow/Kilkenny constituency, visited the area during the flooding. As a result people in the area believed that he understood the problem and that he was prepared to use his clout to do something about it. I ask the Minister not to shatter their expectations.
I welcome the Minister, Deputy Jim Higgins, to the House and congratulate him and wish him well in his new portfolio.
It has taken approximately four weeks of effort in the House to hold a debate on this issue. This is no fault of the Minister, because he was not in his present position when I first raised it in the House. Now that a debate on flooding is taking place, it is important that we outline our views on what should happen. That is what I intend to do, and it is also my intention to bring to the attention of the Minister the serious situation that exists in the Shannon and Suck basin.
In the report from the Minister today and in his address to the House today, there is no mention of this basin, which is a mistake. While I do not wish in any way to take from the areas which have been and should be mentioned and where serious problems exist, I must remind the Minister that there is a very severe problem in the Shannon and Suck basin, one that has been with us for years and years. It is a problem that has been highlighted every time there has been a flood. On this occasion there is even more reason for highlighting the problem, because I have received confirmation from Bord na Móna that at their measuring point at Shannonbridge they have measured the highest flood ever, that is, three eighths of one inch higher than even the 1954 flood. These are the figures from the regional manager of Bord na Móna in respect of the entire Blackwater-Derrynafada works area.
This indicates that we have a very severe situation in this area; and, to outline its severity, I would point out that people with farms of 40 or 50 acres are now reduced to three or four acres. All of their stock have been brought onto three or four acres, which is the sum total of the lands on which they can have stock resting at present.
I do not wish to detract in any way from the situation in south Galway, Clare or Carlow. But it is the responsibility of every representative to put forward the best possible case and to get the best possible attention for the territory they represent. Indeed, the Minister must represent all areas, and I wish to impress on him that there are very serious problems in the area about which I have been speaking.
Part of the seriousness of the problem stems from the isolation of the area between the Shannon and the Suck, the south and mid-Roscommon area. It is an unfortunate area in so far as the Shannon, which is a major river, lies on the east, while the Suck lies on the west.
The Shannon has been the subject of major debate and concern over the years on the basis that, first, it causes much flooding, and, secondly, that, to some extent at least, there is no regulatory authority over it. There are so many vested interests in the river, whether it be the ESB, the Office of Public Works, the navigation board, fisheries or whatever, who all have their own patch with regard to responsibility; and therein lies some of the problem.
When a list is established of areas where a response should take place, maintenance on that section of the Shannon and of the Suck is of vital importance. The reason for that is this. Fifty thousand acres of bog are drained into the Roscommon-east Galway area, which has to eventually drain into the Shannon from the River Suck. The figure used to be 30,000 acres, but in recent years 20,000 acres were added. This takes place without as much as a shovel, a drag, a spade or a machine being put on either of the two rivers at this point in order to undertake one yard of maintenance.
There is serious silting in the Shannon, right down to Meelick weir, and in the Suck right up to Athleague. There is a responsibility on the Office of Public Works, under the Minister's new proposals to undertake maintenance work in this area. The new Bill proposed by the Minister can allow for this. I have always believed that it could be done one way or another, because if Bord na Móna could drain that amount of bog into a river, surely the people who have responsibility for the nine miles of the last section of the Suck and the whole of the Shannon could carry out maintenance on their own section.
Under the proposals to amend the arterial drainage legislation, this area should be included with the other high priority areas for certain works to be undertaken. I compliment Senator Daly for introducing proposals with regard to this. He has displayed initiative in bringing forward a Bill to amend the arterial drainage legislation which he hopes to have debated in the House next week. He has the support of our group on the House on this matter. Hopefully, there can be all party agreement either that his Bill is taken and amended by the Government or that there is a joint approach to this matter. In any event, we must get a Bill onto the floor of the House in as short a time as possible to deal with it.
There must also be maintenance of our rivers as distinct, to some extent, from drainage works. In certain areas silt has dug into the fords, the rock basins and sand basins requiring the necessity for digging. However, we cannot continue with a situation where practically all of the midlands and the area to the west is being drained into the Suck and the Shannon and we do not undertake as much as one hour's drainage work on either of the two rivers. This cannot continue as it is a recipe for disaster in the future.
A number of things will happen as a result of remedial action not being taken. The first is that we have now a major back-up of drainage problems. This is apparent if one speaks to the older engineers or to the older farmers, especially in the areas of mid and south County Roscommon. They will advise that the turloughs are higher now than ever before. These people are experts in so far as they have seen this situation over a lifetime of 70 or 80 years. Their honest opinion is that the natural drainage outlets in both of those rivers have been blocked up with silt which has got in through the eskers, the swallow holes and so on.
At this stage the finest of upland is being flooded. Water is coming up out of the ground, out of the turloughs, and spreading out over vast areas of excellent upland which never had flooding before. This all derives from the basin of the Suck and the Shannon. There is now a responsibility on the Office of Public Works to enter into negotiations with Bord na Móna and, if necessary, Bord na Móna should make a contribution towards the maintenance of the two rivers.
The Minister always has been a very strong voice on his own territory and on matters of importance to the west, and I compliment him on this. The case I put forward is in respect of a genuine situation. It is no scare situation; it needs the attention of somebody like the Minister, or some body such as the Office of Public Works. Those in the Office of Public Works have the expertise; it is a well established organisation with the engineering back up and the necessary knowledge to proceed.
The provision of compensation for farmers and money for roads is important. I hope that, with the funds the Minister of State will get in the Supplementary Estimate and the £2 million being provided, he will be able to give relief in that area, and that the Minister for the Environment will be able to help out as regards the roads which have been damaged. I ask him to keep as a matter of priority the maintenance of the River Shannon at that point and the River Suck where it meets the Shannon. Therein lies the contributing factor to the problem of major flooding in the south and mid-Roscommon area.
Mr. Naughten
I join with the other Members in congratulating the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Higgins, on his appointment and wish him every good luck and success. He is committed to the development of rural Ireland and I have no doubt that he is ideally suited for the post to which he has been appointed. I wish to thank most sincerely the Leader of the House for giving us the opportunity for this today, which is timely and appropriate.
As has been pointed out, due to the unprecedented rainfall in January we have unprecedented flooding. Only once — in 1953 — since records on the River Shannon began has the level been as high as it was in February. On 2 January 1995, it was 38.57 metres, which was just below the level of 1953. That flooding has caused untold hardship and damage in the Shannon and Suck valleys. I wish to reflect the views of farmers and residents in that area, as did Senator Finneran who comes from that area.
I do not underestimate the damage which has been done in south Galway, Clare, Carlow and other areas by the high levels of rainfall which have caused unprecedented problems in this country and throughout Europe. Assistance will have to be provided to try to alleviate the major difficulties of households which have been flooded and perhaps cannot get insurance because of a history of flooding, or landowners who have suffered drastically because of the loss of their lands and the fact that they can no longer put fertiliser on those lands will inevitably cause major hardship down the line and, of course, the loss of livestock. Those people will have to be considered when a compensation fund is set up.
I welcome the Government's decision to provide £2 million in the Estimates to alleviate some of the problems which have arisen. I note that the Minister of State's predecessor had committed himself to making an application for additional funds from Europe — and I am sure that the present Minister of State will follow that up.
I am glad to see that a departmental committee has been set up which will, I hope, grapple not just with the problems of this current flood but the problems which already existed but nothing was done. Senator Fahey made the point very forcibly that over the last few months he had been to various Ministers and Departments but was unable to get assistance for people who suffered from the severe flooding last year. We have the same situation in the Shannon and Suck valleys where untold damage has been done over the years.
Funnily enough, floods during the winter do not cause major problems for those farmers, although they cause major inconvenience. However, a late spring early summer, or early autumn flood causes untold damage where meadows and grass land are flooded, as happened in 1993. Unfortunately, the Government of the day decided to ignore the problem and did not give assistance to those farmers, many of whom were facing financial ruin. This has been an ongoing problem for many years.
As Senator Finneran pointed out, the problem is getting worse because of the enormous amount of drainage which needs to be done — both field drainage, and arterial drainage. Lack of proper drainage in the north of our county is causing flooding in both the Shannon and Suck valleys.
Prior to the development of forestry those lands acted as a great big sponge which soaked up substantial amounts of water during times of heavy rain or snow. Those lands have now been drained and, as a result, water which might take three to four months to get into the River Shannon is now entering it in 48 to 60 hours.
There has also been major development of the bogs in the midlands which 20 years ago were also sponges which soaked up the water for months on end and discharged it gradually. Now they have been developed and drained and, as a result, a huge amount of water is getting into the rivers very fast. The channel from Athlone to Meelick is unable to take the water load and it must, therefore, spread out not just over all of south Roscommon but also into parts of south Westmeath, Offaly and east Galway.
I welcome the Government's decision to amend the Arterial Drainage Act. The present Act no longer serves the purpose for which it was enacted. It was a great idea. It intended to bring land into production and to alleviate major problems in different parts of the country. It served the people well. However, nowadays, we are no longer talking about bringing more land into production. In Senator Dardis's county a substantial amount of land has been left to set-aside.
We will not succeed in getting funding from Brussels for drainage per se but the people who live in those areas are entitled to a certain standard of living and to be treated as equal citizens of Europe, which is not happening today. Huge difficulties have been experienced by many families, not just in rural areas but also in some towns. Those people must be helped and the only way we can do that is by drainage and maintenance. The maintenance of the River Shannon must be tackled under the amended Arterial Drainage Act.
A report has been carried out which indicates that with a very small sum — not more than £2 million — a huge amount of drainage work could be done between Athlone and Meelick which would allow the free flow of water from Lough Rea into Lough Derg. In 1986, the Minister of State, Deputy Avril Doyle, got her Department to carry out some remedial work at Meelick weir. It has been recognised by the IFA and other bodies involved in the River Shannon that that work alleviated many of the existing problems and allowed a great deal of water to get away much faster. Of course, it was only a very small scheme but, nevertheless, it alleviated some of the problems. There are major blockages on that river, particularly between Shannonbridge and Meelick, which require remedial work.
Some of those blockages, I hasten to add, are as a result of peat which was run off in the Bord na Móna developments into the bed of the Shannon and has lain there. It is not unknown for cruisers to run aground on those mud banks in the Shannon. The Office of Public Works has a responsibility for navigation there but it appears that it is happy once it can keep boats going up and down the Shannon. However, there are mud banks there which must be removed.
Recently, I met the Minister for Agriculture, Forestry and Food and the Minister of State's predecessor, Deputy Hogan and my reason for meeting them was two-fold. First, in 1986, the then Taoiseach, Dr. Garret FitzGerald, and the then Minister for Agriculture visited the areas which were flooded in 1985, and he was horrified to see farming families totally marooned. They only way they could communicate with Athlone, which was only a mile away, was by boat. Other families had to go seven miles around to make what should have been a mile and a half trip. He set up an interdepartmental——
We need to get to the result of the meeting please, Senator.
Mr. Naughten
I do not wish to delay the House. The then Taoiseach established a committee, with a view to setting up a Shannon valley authority. This would bring all the different bodies involved in the Shannon, whether it was the ESB, Office of Public Works or inland fisheries, under the one umbrella for the purpose of the management and control of the Shannon with statutory authority. This is what we want and this is the long term aim. Such a body for the management and control of the Shannon would alleviate many of our problems.
My other point relates to recognising the special problems of farmers in the Shannon valley. Flooding is an annual event for these farmers and is not something new. They should be recognised under the headage mechanism as having special difficulties. There should be special criteria laid down so that they would receive additional income from the headage mechanism. This would help to alleviate the major problems they will face day in day out for generations to come. I am not one who believes the Shannon will be drained, but its management and control is of vital importance.
I welcome the Minister to the House and I congratulate him on his appointment. I wish him luck in his new position. One could say he has been dropped in at the deep end by taking over the position.
Mr. Naughten
Not in the water.
As other speakers stated, this is a timely debate. The people of the west have developed patience over the years when it comes to storms and flood damage. I come from County Kerry, but the county was not mentioned anywhere in the Minister's speech. People might think it does not rain in County Kerry and we stay dry there, but I assure the House that the county is flooded every other week. It experiences the worst storms of any part of the country.
If there is flooding in Dublin, the reaction never ceases to amaze me. I remember when the River Dodder broke its banks. I thought for some time that I was living in Las Vegas, given the number of helicopters, ambulances, gardaí and Army personnel around the place because the homes of some people around the RDS were flooded. If the flooding which has occurred in County Kerry or in the west over the past months had happened in Dublin, I am sure the ambulances, helicopters and gardaí would have been around the place again. There would be national television coverage and it would be a worldwide event. I have sympathy for the people living in the west and the hardship they have endured over the years and I am glad something will be done this time to alleviate the flooding problems.
Over the years the watercourses and watertables in many counties have been blocked. Many people mentioned county roads but one will never see a pothole on a dry road. Potholes always appear on roads which are subjected to some form of flooding. I must criticise the shortfall in the budget for county roads in the coming year which is something in the order of £12 million. It will take a huge amount of money to restore county roads to the condition they were in prior to the flooding.
There are many mountains in County Kerry and people might think we do not get the same flooding as occurs in the flatlands around Counties Galway and Clare. However, we get similar flooding. I went through the village of Ballyduff in County Kerry during one of the heavy floods and there was approximately two feet of water on the main street. Sewage was flowing back into homes because all the water was going into the main part of the sewerage system and coming back up through gullies. I went into premises where there was up to two feet of sewage and this was in one of numerous small villages in the county which were destroyed.
I understand that the £2 million allocation is to help farmers. Is there any funding or assistance for householders in towns or villages? Will there be any assistance for the people in these places who were subjected to flooding? Will a priority list be drawn up for the spending of this money and, if a priority list is drawn up, to what counties will the money go? Will it be broken down between counties that were flooded and will it be distributed by local authorities or the Department? Who will report back to the Department and who, ultimately, will decide where the money is spent? I remember the last priority list drawn up by the Office of Public Works and it was a complete disaster. It would be a mistake to draw up a priority list in this case. The Minister should contact local authorities and get reports on the flooding in their counties. Perhaps the Department should go through it county by county and give each county its fair share to ensure that each area is assisted.
I am totally surprised that Ireland has been excluded from the EC disaster fund. The Minister should contact the EU immediately, if he has not done so already, to ensure that Ireland is included in this major disaster fund. At this stage the Minister's colleague in Brussels, Commissioner Flynn, should be contacted and perhaps the two could use their offices collectively to ensure that Ireland is included. Regardless of the nature of the flooding in Europe, it has been just as severe in this country on this occasion.
Local authorities should also be contacted with regard to granting planning permission to people living in low lying areas. They should be prevented from proceeding with any type of development on land which would be subject to flooding. This should be part of the planning regulations and the Department should contact the planning authorities to ensure that no developments take place in low lying areas.
At this stage a case can be made to bring all the unemployed people who are capable of working on to the roads, supplying them with shovels and getting them to open up all the watercourses on every road in every county. Local authorities should be forced to call on farmers to ensure that watercourses to main rivers are kept open. It is a major problem when farmers will not allow water on their land and they are trying to block gullies to allow water onto the public road at present. The road then becomes dotted with potholes and local authorities must repair it. Local authorities should use their powers to ensure that all main drains and gullies across lands are kept open. If grants were introduced for people to make bigger drains on their land so that they can reach headings to the main watercourse, it would remove much of the flooding from the roads in the west.
The Minister has a serious problem on his hands which will not be dealt with easily. If new initiatives have to be introduced I would not refer back to the findings of the Brown Commission, which are antiquated. They may have worked 50 or 60 years ago but would not work now. A lot more development has taken place and there is a lot more drainage of land.
When the water hits now in flash floods it appears rapidly. I remember during the Listowel races one year, which would be the busiest part of our season, I opened my pub and I had four feet of water coming in one door and going out the other. I expected up to 400 or 500 people to come in after the races for food and to warm themselves and the flood wiped out the entire business. That happened three or four times until we got together with the local farmers and started working on a drainage system to get the water into the main river.
Acting Chairman
I will have to stop you in mid stream, so to speak, Senator.
The local authorities should be called on to do more and ensure the farmers do their share also. It is time to bring all the unemployed out on to the roads and into the dykes to open up the drains. Let everyone put their shoulders to the wheel rather than have people suffer as they have.
I welcome the Minister of State and I congratulate him on his appointment; I wish him every success. Flooding in any area may be of two types. There is large scale flooding, which can be caused when a large river overflows, or by the sea, over which we have little control. There is also small flooding which can occur on local roads. The two types should be tackled differently. On my way to the House it was raining heavily and there is a flood at the front gate which I had run through to get here.
That is a pothole.
I come from the same south-west region as Senator Dan Kiely and we have high rainfall, more than the east of the country. This year it has been exceptionally high and the records have been broken. As a result water tables are continuously very high and the falling rain does not sink but runs off into the rivers and streams and causes flooding. The inordinate amount of high rainfall over the last number of months is causing great problems.
One of the worst things that can happen to a house at this time of the year is to be flooded, especially if it is an old house. Not only is the present dampness going through the walls but it will stay until summer — if we get a summer — before it can dry out. We have no dry weather to allow any airing. Old houses built with stone walls can be badly hit with this rainfall. Modern houses would not be built at such a low level due to modern planning rules and the problem does not arise. However, if it did and a new house was flooded, it is easier to dry out afterwards than an old house. It is an awful problem when carpets, furniture, walls and everything else is destroyed. This is apart from the health hazard when water is coming from who knows where into a house and stagnating there.
In Cork south-west, as in other places, we have tremendous problems along the coast, particularly in towns such as Bantry, Skibbereen and Clonakilty, where if there is a high tide and a flood there can be tremendous sudden flooding causing great damage. In addition, people cannot get insurance for their houses and I do not know how we can tackle that. The Dutch got a hammering this year, but we have the same problem with the sea on a smaller scale and these smaller towns are hit badly. People are getting very sour about the whole matter. If the channels of the rivers going through those towns are opened up enough to allow the water to get through to the sea quickly it would help to relieve the problem.
The finger of responsibility for flooding is often pointed at different people. When a flood occurs the county council is easiest to blame. However, the council is not always fully to blame for flooding as the rivers often come through private lands. Someone must take responsibility to ensure that proper drainage is done on the rivers. If the rivers are kept clear and the water can flow away, the flooding will not occur.
In my town of Dunmanway when the river reaches a certain point its course changes and it flows over one of the main roads, in through houses and out again. Nothing can be done but wait for the flood to subside. It is frightful that this should occur in this day and age.
With small flooding there can be a hollow in the road which gets filled up with water and can be of great danger to traffic. The result of water being left on the roads and flowing over them is that potholes are left behind. We need more road workers on the roads. In the past there would have been a local ganger and three or four men working on the roads. They knew that when a certain amount of water fell they would have to go to certain places and unblock drains that would be habitually blocked. That is the answer to a lot of the small flooding. In many cases the old gangers have retired or gone to their eternal reward. Often no workers are recruited in their place and as a result nobody knows the local geography of drains and trenches that have to be sorted out. If we could get more people with experience on the roads to clear them we would not have the problems we have today.
With regard to the large rivers, a proposal was made in the past to build a barrage across the estuary at Clonakily. It came to the Department of the Environment and was shelved. In the meantime any high tide and flooding from the small river means that a number of houses are flooded in the low lying part of the town. It is a continuous danger and threat to the people. In Bantry the local river flows underground through the square and if it is blocked by any material it floods the streets and houses.
We should carry out an engineering survey on the roads and rivers which are liable to be flooded. If we had a list and could know what is to be done throughout the country and if we allocated moneys to each job each year, we would get rid of the flooding. After all, there are children going to school who cannot travel along the roads due to flooding; school buses are held up and school schedules disrupted. This happens continuously when flooding occurs and much of it is unnecessary. If we could get more workers on the roads, more people to clear the gullies, dykes and ditches, the problems would not arise.
When there is a high spring tide and heavy rainfall the town square in Bantry looks like a scene from Venice because it is completely submerged in water. Houses and shops on the square are flooded and goods are destroyed. Flooding occurs suddenly and it would be good if warnings could be given as in the larger cities. If the weather continues as it is at present, we will have to face this problem sooner rather than later. In the past if the months of February or March were dry, it would dry out the countryside so that if there was heavy rainfall in April and May, the water table would be low and would allow water to soak into the ground thereby avoiding flooding. If money was given to local authorities, they could pay a large part in this regard. It would help the situation if in some instances FÁS schemes or the new community enterprise schemes could be applied on an emergency or a once-off basis.
The debate surrounding this year's flooding seems to have become more emotive and urgent than in other years. There are good reasons for that in that there has been more flooding throughout the country than in the past. I welcome the Minister to the House and I will not say that I would have preferred to have seen my colleague from Kilkenny. I know the Minister will not only think of the west but of the east and south east when deciding on priorities.
I am glad my party spokesman on the environment suggested ways of amending legislation which would make it easier for the Minister's Department and the Government to deal with this major problem. Over the past number of years the farming community has suffered because of flooding. One could, however, say that farming is a cause of the flooding because of the extensive drainage schemes in certain areas which caused water to flow into rivers thus creating problems. There are different types of flooding, including tidal and river floods. Water does not always flow where one expects; it often flows into a narrow area which subsequently overflows.
It would take a seer greater than the Minister and his advisers to decide on the best solution to deal with the flooding problems. We must look at the causes of flooding. During the week a TD from the west suggested that if £60,000 was spent in a specific area it would solve the problems there. I hope he will have money in the future to pay compensation for the flooding which would be caused by digging a drain so water from a number of farms could flow elsewhere. That is not a solution.
In Kilkenny we have been looking at the problem of flooding for many years. Flooding occurs on a yearly basis in three areas, which is caused by the River Nore and its tributaries. On 17 March 1947 a flood, which we refer to as the 100 years flood, occurred when the level of the River Nore rose by 16 feet. People were evacuated through the roofs of their houses. The flood was caused by continuous snow over a long period and a sudden thaw. Anyone who says that such flooding can be dealt is not being realistic. But what we are talking about is the normal one year or five year flooding.
I am not sure whether the Office of Public Works has carried out a survey yet, but this year's flood is probably the worst in ten years. How do we deal with what has happened this year? Do we try to deal with the average yearly flood or the ten, 50 or 100 year floods? If we consider heights from the 100 years flood, the allocation of money which the Government has at its disposal for the Department of Education and the Department of Health could not cope with it. If one considers flooding which occurs each year, I suggest that perhaps £50 to £100 million would be required. Some £2 million was allocated in the budget. However, this would not solve even half of the problems of the five year flood in Kilkenny, which has not been allocated any money. Money which the Government must make available must come from the EU or from another fund. I ask the Minister where he believes this money will come from.
In Kilkenny we have tried to devise a programme to alleviate the problem on an annual basis. The cost of this in the city area alone would be £355,000. As we all know, by the time that programme is initiated that sum will have increased to £500,000. That sum does not take into account smaller towns in Kilkenny which are flooded by the River Nore, including Thomastown and Graiguenamanagh, or the fact that the peripheral areas between Carlow and Kilkenny are flooded by three rivers.
The problem of periodic flooding will not be easily resolved. I heard people say that even if £10 million is allocated towards the alleviation of flooding, it could not deal with the problems in south Galway or anywhere west of the Shannon. We must realise that flooding is a problem and that money must be allocated on a regular basis. We must plan and find the cause of flooding. This may not suit those who want the immediate alleviation of their problems. We cannot, however, alleviate the immediate problem if we do not know the cause of it. A long term project which will receive long term funding is required. Once the houses in flooded areas are cleaned up, everybody else seems to forget about the problems associated with flooding.
At a time when people are talking about the Price Waterhouse report and decreasing the size of our Defence Forces, we recall that the major tasks of our Defence Forces over the years have been threefold — protection along the Border, training our troops in preparation for an emergency and service abroad, but also service to the civil power. The Army should be involved at all times in emergency situations such as flooding. In certain areas where flooding is a regular part of the winter environment, emergency services come into play immediately; they are ready. The county councils, the Garda, the Civil Defence and the Army should get together and draw up an emergency plan.