Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 1995

Vol. 142 No. 1

Seanad Representation for Emigrants: Motion.

Mr. McDonagh

I move:

That Seanad Éireann welcomes the decision of the Government to provide representation in the Seanad for Irish emigrants in line with the commitment in A Government of Renewal, urges that the necessary referendum be held as soon as practicable and looks forward to welcoming emigrant representatives to this House after the next general election.

I welcome the Minister to the House. I am delighted to propose this motion. The debate on voting rights for Irish emigrants has gone on for many years. The prevailing feeling is that they should be given a say in the governing of their native country. At long last words have given way to action. I welcome the decision of the Government to provide representation in the Seanad for Irish emigrants in line with the commitment in A Government of Renewal. I sincerely hope that the referendum will be held as soon as possible.

We look forward to welcoming the emigrant representatives to this House after the next general election. Three directly elected Senators will give our emigrants a stronger and more effective voice in the Oireachtas. At present the only Irish emigrants with voting rights in Seanad elections are graduates of the National University of Ireland. It is time to give the other 3.5 million Irish emigrants in Britain and the millions of other Irish emigrants throughout the world a chance to elect their representatives to this House. Giving emigrants seats in Seanad Éireann will establish a concrete link with the Irish abroad and, in so doing, will establish links with a dynamic group. These people are skilled and talented and they will make a meaningful contribution to the Oireachtas. Giving emigrants the vote in this instance could be a great asset to this country.

We realise that anybody with an Irish passport — or indeed others who might not have Irish passports — has a great feeling of belonging to the homeland. Voting rights for the election of Senators will be of no real benefit to such people but could be of enormous benefit to this country. We can see at first hand the great progress many Irish people have made overseas. In England, seven of the last eight Lord Mayors of Manchester had Irish connections and that is also true of the current mayor of Coventry. Many Irish people overseas have got involved in the political process and one can imagine the enormous expertise they have gained. They can bring this expertise to bear in the land of their forefathers if given an opportunity. They will be given this opportunity as a result of the Government proposal to allocate seats for them in Seanad Éireann.

It would be remiss of us not to refer to the Irish international soccer team which is mainly composed of second generation Irish people. We see their commitment, dedication and love for this country. Their footballing skills have been harnessed to put Ireland on the world map in football. The same can be achieved in harnessing the vitality and commitment of the Irish in industry, culture and education in England and other countries. They can bring their expertise to bear on our country when given the opportunity through the forthcoming Bill.

The great love of the Irish for their native land is also evident on great occasions such as St. Patrick's Day when the Irish colours are carried in big parades in New York's Fifth Avenue, other American cities, the cities of Great Britain and cities throughout the world. It is obvious that there is great commitment and love for their country in the hearts of the people who left this country, many through no fault of their own. It is time we gave recognition to this great love of Ireland and thanked these people for the way in which they have promoted our country. They have been fine and able ambassadors for the emerald isle.

When discussing votes for emigrants it would be remiss of us not to recall the words of people like Patrick Sarsfield who, on the battlefield of Landon, spoke the immortal words: "O, that this were for Ireland" and John F. Kennedy who, on leaving this country, said: "I hope to be back in the springtime". We remember the songs of Ireland which portray the great desire of our emigrants to return to the emerald isle — for example, "When there are brighter days in Ireland, I'll come home and marry thee".

Mr. Magner

Is that a proposal, Senator?

Mr. Reynolds

As long as it is not to me.

Mr. McDonagh

We can in a meaningful way thank those people by giving them the voting rights in the Seanad which they richly deserve.

Long term emigration has effectively tailed off. We should thank God for that. We should endeavour now to harness the talents and skills of our second generation of Irish emigrants. Although many people left Ireland without skills or trades, they certainly were not found wanting in ensuring that their children received a full and good education thus endowing them with good skills. The second generation of Irish emigrants can make a huge contribution to this country. Our emigrants are our flesh and blood and must never be forgotten. The Government's decision to introduce a Bill permitting emigrant representation in the Seanad is a stepping stone to greater participation at all levels in the future. Emigrants, many of whom have been successful in a number of fields, can now play a pivotal role in the emerging new Ireland. They can now bring a new dynamism, a fresh approach and provide a vital link between those at home and abroad.

Other European countries have various systems for allowing emigrants to vote. To date, this country has trailed behind our European partners and has been found wanting in many instances in the provision of voting rights for emigrants. However, the Government is going down the right road and its proposals will ensure that the three representatives will come from the ranks of the emigrants themselves.

These people can then represent the emigrants and articulate their needs and desires, and ensure that there is a platform in one of the Houses of Parliament to hear their views on the problems they may be experiencing. They can also bring to bear the expertise they have acquired outside this country to benefit the country as a whole.

As the Seanad is a vocational based second Chamber, it is important that one of its functions be to give a national platform to special interest groups, as the present panel indicates. The feeling of organised groups outside this country, including the Irish World Heritage Centre in Manchester, is that the Government has so far failed to acknowledge the huge investments made in Ireland by the Irish in Britain and which could be greatly increased if the market was stimulated and co-ordinated. They feel that the Irish in Britain must be given a say in the affairs of the Republic if they are to make a worthwhile contribution in this current economic plight.

The emigrant groups feel that the Republic of Ireland is out of line with the rest of Europe on the issue of representation as every other country is giving voting rights to their emigrants. It is, therefore, my pleasure to propose the Fine Gael motion and to compliment the Fine Gael Party and the Government for responding to something which has been talked about for a long time but on which there has been no action.

There has been a lot of verbiage on this issue. The great American writer, Walt Whitman, said words are like leaves, they can be tossed in many directions. However, the words have now been replaced by action. It is a pleasure for me to compliment the Government for its proposal. I therefore formally propose the motion. We all look forward to welcoming our emigrant representatives in the House after the next general election.

Tá súil agam go mbeidh fáilte roimh na daoine seo nuair a thagann siad go dtí an Teach seo. Molaim an Rialtas as ucht an éifeacht atá déanta acu. Molaim an rún don Teach.

Mr. Reynolds

I second the motion to allow emigrants to be represented in the Seanad. I also welcome the Minister of State to the House. He has done an excellent job so far and we look forward to greater and better things from him in the future.

Mr. Magner

All Cork men do great jobs.

Mr. Reynolds

That is true, but there is always an exception to the rule. We wish the Minister of State the very best of luck in his task ahead. I welcome the decision made by the Government. As Senator McDonagh has said, it is vitally important to allow emigrants be represented in the Seanad. As a former emigrant, I have practical experience in this area. Sometimes it was difficult to comprehend the views expressed by politicians about the way emigrants should be represented here and ignored abroad.

I appreciate the great desire of a large number of Irish emigrants. Irish people and Irish passport holders, who wish to participate in the elective process of this country and who wish to have a voice. It is a small step in the right direction. therefore, that the Government has introduced a proposal to allow emigrants three representatives in this House. This illustrates the Government's commitment.

As a former Member of the Lower House, I was involved, as spokesman on youth affairs, in the debate to allow emigrants participate in the elective process. It was Fine Gael policy at the outset to allow emigrants be represented in Seanad Éireann and I am delighted the Government has brought matters a step nearer to reality in that it has introduced a policy and has a Bill coming forward. I have no doubt therefore that many of the emigrant representatives all over the world will be very pleased with the attitude of the Government in this respect.

For many years great lip service was paid to the Irish people who had no choice but to go abroad. They found themselves in different countries and politicians paid lip service to the idea that they should and would be given representation and that their fears and desires would be listened to.

However, people became extremely cynical of all talk and no action; they were getting the same message day in day out from Government representatives that they were to be given strong representation and a strong voice to express their fears and to be genuinely represented in the Houses of the Oireachtas. This did not happen and the emigrant organisations grew very cynical. It was not a healthy development because it led many worthwhile people to expend their energies on different causes for Ireland when it might have been better had they put their views and expertise into parliamentary representation.

I am pleased that the Government has introduced strong and definite proposals and that, after the next Seanad election, there will be three Members representing the entire emigrant population. This is a very positive development and a small step in the right direction.

Many politicians are committed to allowing Irish emigrants have voting rights at general elections. Some European countries, the USA and Australia allow their emigrants to participate in general and presidential elections. The most difficult aspect of this for any Irish Government would be the logistics because we have emigrants in every corner of the world. With a view to allowing all emigrants to participate actively in general elections, a scheme would have to be introduced which would give everybody a fair chance to cast their vote.

I welcome the decision made by the Government to have representatives in the next Seanad who will be able to articulate the views of emigrants. It will also enable us, as politicians, to listen first hand to the fears which emigrant organisations worldwide will raise. It will also, perhaps, help us achieve the objective of eventually allowing all emigrants and Irish passport holders to participate in general elections. I congratulate the Government on a very worthwhile proposal. I hope that the referendum will be held in the short term and that emigrant organisations will be represented in the next Seanad.

Mr. Daly

This motion affords us the opportunity to discuss again an issue which has been the subject of much discussion over many years. In 1991 the late Deputy Gerry O'Sullivan moved a Bill in the Dáil dealing with this issue and there was a full debate to which Senator Reynolds contributed. It highlighted an issue which many people felt should be dealt with by way of legislation and, if necessary, amendment of the Constitution. However there is, as was borne out in that debate, much discussion on the best method to meet the objective of most people, that is, that the Irish abroad should continue to have an influence on political affairs here for a period after they have left.

In speaking on behalf of Fianna Fáil, I suggest that the Government should extend this motion. In order to have a full and thorough examination of all aspects of the issue, the motion should be amended to propose an Oireachtas Joint Committee which would lease out fully how the whole issue of emigrant representation might be dealt with. As many Members will be aware, even the welcome decision to have Seanad representation will not be favoured by all emigrants, many of whom see this as a mere token while they seek something more substantive.

In the past we have had many indications from our emigrants of issues which need our attention here and where they felt we could have been more helpful. For a short time I had ministerial responsibility for emigration and I had the welcome opportunity to meet many people in emigrant organisations in the United Kingdom and the United States. I felt that opinion was divided as to whether they sought, needed or required representation here. There was a very strong indication that they needed more financial support from the Government for the work which they were doing for emigrants. I found, especially in the United Kingdom, strong criticism of the lack of adequate finances for emigrant organisations. Much of their work is of a humanitarian nature dealing with emigrants' problems with the law, social welfare and so on. There were very genuine complaints about the lack of financial resources for these organisations.

In recognition of this, Governments have over the past number of years increased the contributions. I compliment the Government on the increased contribution which it gave last year to organisations working with Irish emigrants in the United Kingdom and in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia and San Francisco. The Department of Foreign Affairs and FÁS, which is also working to help place personnel overseas, are improving our communication with emigrants.

I am not certain that if emigrant organisations were asked for a list of priorities, they would place representation in the Seanad as the top priority. They would feel that there was a necessity to continue to support financially the work which they are doing, to give them the benefit of advice and to improve the advice services for young people planning to emigrate. Many emigrants, through lack of knowledge or detailed advice on what they would face in other countries, found themselves in very difficult and intolerable situations and came home very disappointed and disillusioned.

However, it is also true to say that some did very well, particularly in the United Kingdom. I have been a personal friend for a long time of Michael O'Halloran, who left west Clare, a few miles from where I live, and was elected to the Parliament of Westminster. He represented the constituency of Islington for many years. He was not involved in politics here but he became involved in politics in the United Kingdom soon after his arrival there. He played a very important role in the development of Labour Party policies in Islington and was eventually elected to the Parliament, where he made an outstanding contribution for many years.

Many of the emigrants to whom I spoke a few years ago were very anxious to get involved in the political process in the country to which they had emigrated. Many young people told me that they wished to be registered to vote in the United Kingdom because it entitled them to seek mortgages and other facilities to set up homes and businesses. Although many of them would always continue to have strong ties with their families and politicians at home, quite a substantial number felt that they had a contribution to make to the political process in the United Kingdom. As I said, Michael O'Halloran was elected to the Parliament and I am sure that many others are involved in politics there. As a result of being connected with the building industry many of them joined the Labour Party and they made a large contribution to its development. However, they were interested in what was happening in Ireland and expressed the wish that Ireland would not forget them and would support and financially back their organisations and representative bodies.

I do not need to detail the contribution which Irish people have made to political, social and economic life in the United States. For many years there was a great deal of controversy here surrounding the issue of visas and how the Government here might be able to help. When people came here to make representations in this House they were not seeking voting rights for seats in the Seanad but were seeking support from the Irish Government for their long running campaign to improve the situation in relation to holiday and work visas for the United States. A valuable contribution was made by successive Ministers making contact with powerful Irish American politicians to help to remedy the situation which had been allowed to deteriorate over the years where Irish emigrants in the United States, many of whom were illegal, were at a disadvantage. Quite an amount of work was undertaken to resolve this matter, and it has been resolved to some extent. I would like the issue of the entry visa to the United States resolved. This has been a bone of contention for many people who had such problems even on short visits to the United States. These issues are important.

I had a quick look at the reply of the previous Minister — former Deputy Pádraig Flynn, who is now a European Commissioner — on Second Stage to the late Deputy O'Sullivan's Bill in the Dáil. The former Minister spelled out clearly the difficulties and complexities he saw in trying to arrive at the position proposed by the Labour Party, where people would have voting rights for 15 years after they emigrated.

I worked for a local authority for a long time before I was elected to the Houses of the Oireachtas. I recall that when we prepared the electoral list there was always a marked reluctance to take off the list people who had emigrated for a period. In compiling electoral lists it would be possible to keep people on them for a period after they emigrated so that they could have an opportunity to vote in elections here. It would not be an enormous problem to arrange a postal vote for them. It would be possible to keep a list of people who had emigrated for a fixed period of perhaps three or four years so that they would be entitled to vote during that time. Many people return during that period anyway. They abandon their visits abroad and settle in local communities here.

This issue is complex and it is further complicated with regard to Seanad representation. Members will be aware that a number of people, especially graduates, have an entitlement to vote in Seanad elections and continue to use that entitlement while they are abroad. Graduates from colleges receive their voting papers and they are entitled to cast their votes by virtue of their university entitlements. Many graduates utilise that entitlement for quite a period after they emigrate.

This is an opportune time to discuss this matter, although it has been discussed before. An all party delegation should be established to find a solution to this issue which would be acceptable to the broad body of emigrants. It should come up with a report which would indicate precisely what action should be taken. I thank the proposer and seconder of the motion for providing the opportunity to discuss this matter. I am sure other opportunities will arise at later date to bring the issue to an acceptable and worthwhile conclusion.

Mr. Magner

I welcome Minister of Slate, Deputy Allen, to the House. It is ironic and fitting that the constituency represented by the Minister, Cork North Central, was also the constituency of the late Deputy Gerry O'Sullivan, who moved that Bill in the Dáil. The Minister, Deputy Allen, worked with Gerry for many years and it would also have given him pleasure to see the Minister in the House this evening. The Minister has been an outstanding public representative and I wish him well in his responsibilities.

When Gerry was researching this issue he went to London and New York. There were diverse views from emigrants as regards what they wanted. Most wanted money and support from the place in which they lived, while some wanted votes. I remember that when Gerry was Lord Mayor — the Minister will be familiar with this — he went to San Francisco. As he was being feted around, escorted by motorcycle police, there was a roar from a building site: "Hey, Gerry, boy." A fellow from Blackpool was up on the scaffold. Gerry met emigrants all over the place in that type of situation.

The principle of giving votes to emigrants is fairly well accepted, but the methodology and the mechanisms whereby this can be done fairly are not accepted as yet. With reference to the point made by my colleague, Senator McDonagh, very strange people got Irish passports. Colonel Ollie North comes to mind immediately. I am sure there are people in some countries around the world who are in possession of Irish passports purchased in London, courtesy of an official in the Irish Embassy, if one remembers. The American Government was probably manufacturing them also at the time, because everybody aboard a particular jet sent by the American Government to Iran was in possession of an Irish passport. We must be very careful in defining who will benefit from the extension of this franchise.

The point made by Senator Daly is valid. The issue deserves a debate and every attempt to try to secure cross party support for it. It should not be a divisive measure and I would welcome the Government taking the Fianna Fáil suggestion on board. It should at least be subject to scrutiny by an all party committee on the basis that it is not delayed. We are almost agreed on this measure and I do not think it is the intention of Fianna Fáil to try to extend the time. However, it deserves mature consideration in order to get it right.

I see that the Minister, Deputy Howlin, has come into the House. We ought to be amenable to having this matter discussed across party bounds in whatever fora the Minister considers relevant, provided that the time element is not unduly delayed. After all, it must the subject of a referendum and, as the House is aware, referenda on a number of issues are pending this year. The principle is well established, but I derive some amusement from the vision of the Clerk of the Seanad, Ms Lane, waiting for the Australian, Brazilian or American votes before she puts people out of their misery in relation to the next Seanad election. It will be interesting to see the reaction.

My party has been committed to this move for a long time. In many ways it is a salute to the late Gerry O'Sullivan that we have come this far. The Fine Gael motion is welcome, but it is also fair to acknowledge that the last Government felt precisely the same in relation to the whole issue. To some extent there is cross party agreement. I hope that Minister Howlin will be in a position to ensure that the voices of those abroad, in countries such as those mentioned by Senator McDonagh, will be represented in the House. This would be to our benefit and to their benefit.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Howlin)

I am grateful to the Seanad for taking the time to debate the Government's proposal to provide three seats in the Seanad for representatives of our emigrants spread throughout the world. It is fitting that the first Oireachtas debate on the proposal should take place in the Upper House, where emigrants will, hopefully, in the next Oireachtas, be represented. I hope that the first formal step in this matter, the introduction of a Bill to amend the Constitution, will not be long delayed. It is a constitutional requirement that a Bill to amend the Constitution must be initiated in the Dáil, but the Seanad can still expect to have the opportunity of dealing with the Bill within a few months.

Proposals to provide a voice for our emigrants in Irish public affairs have been, as Senators said, in the public domain and discussed for many years. The momentum has built up in recent years, with commitments in the agreed programmes of the last two Governments to "examine" various aspects of this issue.

When in Opposition, my own party and Fine Gael separately presented Bills to extend voting rights to emigrants and I know that other voices have also been raised in support of this issue. The present Government have brought the matter to a head with a specific undertaking, negotiated in the Programme for Government, to provide for the election of three Members of Seanad Éireann by Irish emigrants.

The case for giving Irish emigrants an effective voice in the running of our national affairs is, to my mind, irrefutable. Our history, the numbers of people who have left this country over the years to live abroad, the close links which we retain with our relations overseas, all these factors all emphasise the need for formal recognition of the interest of emigrants and the contribution they can make to the nation. The Irish nation does not end on the shores of the island of Ireland and all of us who have had the privilege of meeting groups of Irishmen and women on every continent know that the pride they exude for this country makes them a full and wholesome part of the Irish nation. The question now is not whether emigrants should be given a voice in Irish affairs but rather how this can best be arranged and built into our constitutional and electoral systems.

There is divided opinion in the Oireachtas and in the country generally on the most appropriate way of providing representation for emigrants. Since this matter was formally raised some years ago, there has been much soul searching among all parties represented in the Oireachtas. I think it is fair to say that views on every side have matured significantly. The Government's proposal to provide representation in the Seanad may not be everybody's first choice but I believe most people will find it acceptable. That is the very essence of politics — developing solutions which are practical, realistic and acceptable, and in the context of the other affairs of this day I think that particular sentence is apt.

The Seanad is a special place, designed to provide a forum for alternative viewpoints and vocational interests which might not win majority support at the polls in the hurly-burly of a Dáil general election campaign. It is a place where debate can be more reflective and representative of a wider range of views than can sometimes be represented and evident in the Lower House. I think the Seanad is the ideal forum for emigrant representatives to present their views, initially at any rate. Emigrants are not immediately affected by all of the decisions taken by the institutions of this State on the issues of the day. Nonetheless, they have a broad knowledge of those issues, backed by experience in other countries which can give them a unique perspective on the problems that face us, the Irish people. The Seanad will be enriched by the three emigrant representatives and the advent of these elected Members will bring the House more in line with the representative role initially envisaged for this House under the Constitution.

I hasten to add that the new Members will not be here solely to address emigrant issues or to articulate a purely emigrant viewpoint. They will participate fully in the work of the Seanad, contributing to the consideration of all legislation and other business that comes routinely before this House. They will have the right to initiate legislation and, under the Constitution, would be eligible for appointment as Ministers of the Government——

Mr. Magner

We are all available, Minister.

Mr. Howlin

——I am delighted to note the availability of everybody here — should the nation require it.

Some weeks ago, the undertaking in the Government's policy agreement on emigrant representation was transformed into a formal Government decision to have the necessary Constitution amendment Bill drafted. The Attorney General's Office is now drafting this Bill which will have to be passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas before being put to the people by way of referendum. The emigrant seats will not be additional seats but will be taken from the 11 seats which it is the Taoiseach's prerogative to fill under existing constitutional provisions.

The aim is to hold the referendum on this subject, together with the referendum on divorce and possibly other matters, on the same day later this year. This is clearly an ambitious target but I believe we must press ahead with speed and determination if we are to make real progress on this issue after so many years of talking.

As well as drafting the necessary Constitution amendment Bill, work is proceeding on detailed proposals for legislation to govern voting by emigrants at Seanad elections. I have given a commitment to publish these proposals well in advance of the referendum so that the people will know what precisely they are voting for. The proposals in the implementing legislation will cover such matters as entitlement to vote, registration of electors and the conduct of the elections.

I can assure the House that drawing up a scheme for emigrant voting is throwing up many thorny issues. For example, should voting rights be extended to all Irish citizens abroad or be confined to citizens abroad who lived in this country for a specified minimum period? Should the extension of voting rights be open-ended? Should there be a cut-off point related to duration of absence from Ireland? If there is to be a cut-off point, at what level should it be set? How should we deal with the position of graduate emigrants, who already have the right to vote at Seanad university elections? I am, of course, well aware that there is a separate question outstanding in relation to university elections and I am aware and conscious of the view expressed in this House last November that the Seanad vote should be extended to all third level graduates.

Questions are asked: should an annual register of emigrant voters be prepared or should a special register be drawn up when an election is called? What qualifications should be required of candidates and what method of nomination should be provided for? What type of voting arrangements should be put in place to meet the reasonable requirements of electors while, at the same time, providing the safeguards which are essential to the secrecy and integrity of the ballot?

It is my intention to consult emigrant representative bodies before finalising my proposals on these issues, but I am also particularly anxious to have the recommendations of this House, and of individual Senators, heard on these difficult questions. There is an onus on me to reach early conclusions in order to facilitate the drawing up of the necessary detailed scheme for emigrant voting and so that these details will be available in good time for the proposed referendum. Hence, this debate is a timely one.

Answering questions in the other House, I have said that I would be willing to go before a committee of the Oireachtas to hear views before finalising the specific proposals on the questions I have already enumerated and others which will no doubt arise and occur to Members here.

As I said earlier, there are differing views on how emigrants should be given representation in Irish public affairs. The late Gerry O'Sullivan, a member of my own party referred to by Senator Magner earlier, presented a Bill in 1991 proposing that emigrants of up to 15 years standing would have the right to vote at all elections, other than local elections. Emigrant representative groups have been campaigning for voting rights at presidential, Dáil and European elections.

On the other hand, it must be acknowledged that certain reservations still persist in relation to the concept of Oireachtas representation for emigrants. We would be foolish to disregard these reservations. We must move with care to seek to construct a broadly based consensus.

I believe that this Governments' commitment to allocate Seanad seats to emigrants is a significant step forward. It is a real breakthrough because, for the first time, a Government in office is firmly committed to a specific measure of emigrant representation. I intend to deliver on this commitment during my term as Minister for the Environment. It is my belief that experience of emigrant representation in the Seanad will allay whatever fears and reservations may exist, and could well pave the way for wider and more extensive representation in the future, and that I certainly will undertake as a tribute and in memory of our dear friend and colleague, the late Gerry O'Sullivan.

For now let us do what is practicable and broadly acceptable. As for the future, I think it was the late Mr. Samuel Goldwyn who declined to prophesy about anything, particularly the future. In considering the shape of emigrant representation in perhaps say five or ten years' time I find myself in sympathy with Mr. Goldwyn's position. All I will do is echo the words of the Tánaiste in relation to ex-Deputy G. O'Sullivan's Bill in 1991: the question of votes for emigrants will not go away.

I will conclude by saying that, as a former Member of this House, I am particularly pleased to have the task of giving emigrants, for the first time, a formal and influential say in Irish public affairs. This is being done in a way which will enhance the role of Seanad Éireann as a forum for ventilating alternative and individual viewpoints on the many problems that will face us as a nation in the years to come.

Professor Lee

Fearaim fáilte roimh an Aire agus tá súil agam go bhfeicfimid go minic é sa Teach seo sna blianta atá romhainn — mar Aire, ar ndóigh, agus ní mar Sheanadóir. I welcome the Minister and his speech, especially as I will be totally parasitic on it. I will follow its structure in the hope of lending some coherence to my remarks.

I welcome this proposal; it is long overdue. Although there will inevitably be criticism or nitpicking with any details entered into, it is important that the first step be taken. As the Minister rightly says, one can learn from experience. It will be a learning process, possibly a protracted one, but educative for all concerned.

I also agree with the Minister referring to the Seanad as being initially the proper place for emigrant representation because of the uncertainties attaching to the implications of representation. Much though I value them, we need to move carefully in assessing their influence on our way of conducting business in this House. Although emigrants are not immediately affected by all the decisions taken by the institutions of the State on the issues of the day, nevertheless they have a broad knowledge of those issues. I suspect a fair number of emigrants — the question is, of course, which ones — do have a good knowledge of activities in this country and of the implications of a number of policies pursued. Some of the emigrants I have met could often out talk and out think many of those in Ireland on issues currently under discussion in this country.

We also must keep in mind — it is a major reason for having emigrant representation — that very little permanent emigration from this country is voluntary. The bulk of our emigrants left historically, and still leave, because there are simply no jobs here for them. They are to some extent a product of the failure of successive Governments in this State, in so far as Governments are responsible, to create sufficient job opportunities or foster sufficient openings to retain the majority of emigrants at home. There will always be emigrants who will of course go for other purposes and that in itself is probably desirable. However, whether they are graduates or less fortunate people, I am convinced that they are emigrating because they cannot find the jobs to keep them here.

A number also emigrate, although I am not sure of the amount, with the intention of returning home in due course if jobs become available here. It was offered a few years ago — I will not cite the prominent public figure — in a prominent public speech in New York which contained a classic bon mot or whatever the opposite of that is, on emigration. He said that the bulk of these emigrants were going abroad in order to return and that in due course they would immeasurably enrich the economy, as well as themselves, society, culture and heritage etc.. If in fact the majority of emigrants were able to return, that would be a cause for rejoicing for most of us; but the majority are not able to return.

Since the late 18th century, only one decade in the history of this country was a net immigrant decade — that was the 1970s. Since then we have been a net emigrant country. One hopes that these emigrants will return. One would like to encourage them to return, maintain contact with them and encourage them to maintain contact with Ireland for at least some time after they go abroad. Naturally, the time will come when many who hoped to return will find themselves so rooted in their new societies that they will not come back. That psychological rubicon will be crossed somewhere along the line when they are so successful abroad, that one hopes there will be no remaining inducement for them to return.

Nevertheless, many emigrants, for at least some time after emigrating, do try to retain some interest in Ireland. They are now able to return much more frequently than was historically the case. There is a fairly regular periodic return which allows them to keep in touch to some extent with at least the gripes of their families and friends at home. In relation to the emigrants who would be the most likely to be enfranchised — the Minister asks whether those abroad for up to five or ten years or longer should be included — a case could be made for a shorter rather than longer period. The emphasis would be put on those who are able to remain in regular contact with Ireland — many of whom would have done this. However, I would not be dogmatic about whether the time period should be five or ten years; 20 years is a little on the long side. I hope that we will not be appealing to an utterly ignorant electorate entirely out of touch with Irish affairs. I am sure there are a fair number of voters who have not emigrated whose range of encyclopaedic knowledge on Irish affairs is finite.

In many respects we are turning to emigrants, whether of shorter or longer standing, and expecting them to use their political influence abroad on our behalf. We are engaged in education and fund raising activities which appeal directly to the susceptibilities and sensitivities of graduates, fortunate or unfortunate, as the case may be. Many a university official is dining for Ireland on far flung dining tables in the interests of raising funds from successful graduates. I see no reason why our sole instinct in contacting these people should be for what we can get out of them without thinking of offering them at least some representation, even if initially it is only a relatively nominal representation, in our affairs. The Minister mentioned the case of graduates among electors. Some of them would be voting in the Seanad University elections. In my admittedly limited and somewhat disorganised experience, at least the last time——

Mr. Howlin

The Senator did not do badly.

Professor Lee

——many emigrants would have liked to have been in closer contact but did not have, or were aware of, convenient mechanisms for remaining in regular contact. More vote abroad than are registered as being abroad because many of the electorate registered at Irish addresses would have emigrated. I do not know the implications for dual mandates or double voting. I presume that graduates who are Members of the Oireachtas and members of local authorities will have dual mandates for elections to this House under various headings. There is not necessarily an issue of principle involved, although there may be one of practice if one wishes to address it. I have no personal views on the matter, but it would not be creating a precedent.

It seems therefore there is a good case for seeking emigrant representation. If the right people were to be elected, I have no doubt they could enrich discussion in this House — we all agree that this is already of a high standard — and bring a wider range of perspectives to bear on our activities. There is a good deal to be said, although it can be overdone, for all of us thinking more constructively about the emigrant community and the Irish community at home and abroad. I do not want to go overboard on that because there can be a degree of rhetorical sentimentality attaching to it. However, in the wider, more open world now emerging, where there is such an emphasis on openness and where international contacts are valued, we should be doing our best to establish, sustain and nurture contacts with the emigrant community, however that can be effectively organised in the short to medium term. For those reasons and for moving our frequently expressed solicitude for our emigrants from the wholly rhetorical——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I must ask the Senator to conclude.

Professor Lee

I will finish within a few seconds, with that rare gift for brevity to which you have so delicately alluded.

For a century we have been rhetorical on emigration; now we are doing something very small, but not necessarily ultimately very insignificant, in order to try to institutionalise their contribution to Irish affairs.

Mr. Roche

When the Minister made this announcement, with his excellent sense of timing — just as the President was about to discuss the issue of the Irish diaspora — I was struck by the novelty of the idea. Seanad Éireann has been at the receiving end of people both going into the other House and coming out of it. As far as I know, it has not yet received people who are either going in or coming out of the country. It struck me as a novel idea which is certainly worth exploring. I say that in no patronising way. I say it because both the Minister and the last contributor are beginning to realise that there is a real practical problem in a small country with a relatively small electorate and a highly competitive electoral system in electing Members to the other House from the emigrant community.

There is also a problem in electing people directly to this House in that Members are not directly elected to this House and we seem by this proposition to be effectively changing that. There was a debate on the nature of the electoral system that should be used in this House. We have what is reasonably regarded as one of the most complex, competitive, downright murderous electoral systems for those of us who do not have the joy of coming through the University panels, that is, those of us who come in through the real electorate as opposed to those who come in via the spoiled electorate; so there are practical considerations here.

I am not at all opposed to the idea of emigrant votes. It is a practical way of recognising beyond rhetoric our linkages with those people who have by and large been forced out of this country. However, I was struck, looking back over the last time this issue was debated, at the sheer scale of it. A point was made by the former Deputy Flynn in the debates in the other House on 5 March 1991, column 2402, where he actually put a measure on the size of the issue. I was doing some research to find out exactly how many people were involved here. Deputy Flynn mentioned that the Central Statistics Office estimate that net emigration between 1981 and 1991, which were not peak emigration years, was in excess of 166,000 people. The population and labour force projections also published by the Central Statistics Office suggested that the net annual emigration up to 1996 would be somewhere between 15,000 and 30,000. In fact, as we all know, tragically it is now heading towards the upper figure. He went on and did some calculations on the basis of the 15 year cut off point, which was the point being discussed at that stage — as Senator Lee has mentioned, clearly there would have to be some cut off in time — suggesting that, on the basis of those statistics alone, over a 15 year period there would be of the order of a quarter of a million people out there to be enfranchised under whatever operation we brought in to resolve this issue of emigrant votes.

He then raised an extraordinary statistic where, in addition to this quarter of a million, he went on to cite the fact that the British census of 1981 showed that persons born in this State and resident in Great Britain at the time totalled in excess of 600,000. Therefore there are very real and practical problems and it would be sensible to tread very carefully if we are going down the avenue of emigrant votes. It is not politically correct to suggest that this is the case, but it is the case. The argument has always been that there should be no taxation without representation. It is not unreasonable to suggest equally that there should be no representation without taxation.

I accept the point that the great bulk of our emigrants are people who have been forced out of this country by circumstances; so one practical problem I see in going down this route at all is who we are going to register and how we are going to register them. The second problem I see is that I am not sure where exactly the three Senators who are to be selected will come from. I suggest to the Minister that he could have a look either among the Taoiseach's 11 or, alternatively, among the university six. We know that the representation from the universities was put into the Seanad electoral system for very specific reasons. There was a particular need to give representation to Trinity College and there was a feeling that there should be a coequal representation from the National University of Ireland. I am not sure whether that special vote makes any sense at all and I am not sure if out of that 17——

Mr. Norris

Certainly not.

Mr. Roche

The Senator will have his opportunity. I look forward to the day that he goes around the councillors like the rest of us.

Mr. Norris

The Senator will be waiting.

Mr. Roche

It would be a very interesting experience.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Norris

I am extremely popular.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Roche without interruption, please.

Mr. Roche

I can attest that certainly in parts of Greystones the Senator is very popular.

The point I am making is that this proposal finally brings to our attention the fact that there are a whole series of practical problems that we have to resolve. Senator Lee has said, and rightly so, that it is a time to stop the rhetoric, debate and discussion and make the decision. The Minister's pronouncement has brought us even closer to the brink on this one. That fact might settle minds and we might get away from rhetoric and into reality. A proposition has been made from this side of the House that we hope the Minister will take up — in fact I know that the Minister is probably disposed to it — that there should be an all party committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas to look into this issue. Obviously, the Senators are paying rather more attention to this issue than Members of the other House at this moment.

I agree with the Minister that if we are going to go down the route of emigrant votes for either House of the Oireachtas, it would be a good idea to start in the Seanad and see what exactly the technical difficulties are in taking it up. We on this side of the House are not interested in mere tokenism; we are interested in real representation for emigrants.

I received a letter during the week which I meant to read into the record but which I forgot to bring into the House. It was from an Irish person resident in Birmingham and, oddly enough, not living in my constituency but in the Minister's own. This writer was very pleased with the announcement that there were going to be votes for the Seanad. It flattered me no end that a person living in Birmingham should think that the Seanad somehow or other is the centre of political power in this country because the point they were making is that it would give emigrants a very real opportunity to participate in the evolution of policies. I do not think that that is what it will do. It is not a mere token either, however. It will help to bring us closer to the emigrant communities and from that point of view it is an experiment worth undertaking.

Before we finally commit ourselves to it I ask the Minister to take on board the proposition which has been made from this side of the House that there should be an all party committee to sit, not interminably on the issue, but for a very short time and to advise on the technical issues and the practicalities of what the Minister is proposing.

Mr. Dardis

I welcome the Minister here this evening. I do not see anything of particular value in the motion. It is aspirational. There is not a lot in it that one could object to, or maybe there is, but it is probably a measure of the Government's reluctance to get into areas where it might find itself in direct confrontation and have to test its minority on the floor of the House. I do not have any objections to emigrants being represented in this House, but I believe that the proposal is really nothing more than a sop to them and that it does not really go far enough. If somebody is a citizen of the country, even should they reside in Australia or Hong Kong, they have a right to vote in the universal franchise when we all go to the polling stations in a general election.

I do not see what the difficulty about this is in a modern society with modern telecommunications. We were all very taken by the fact that when South Africa went to the polls, people from South Africa could go to the poll in Dublin to register their vote. That is how I believe we should proceed. This measure is a halfway house; it may be acceptable as a halfway house, but I do not think it goes far enough.

I am prepared to concede that the Minister has discussed some of those issues in his address and has asked us for our views on them. The Government should go the whole hog. Irish citizens living overseas should have the right to vote in Dáil elections. The reluctance to take that on board has been partially due to political fear of the influence those people might have in particular constituencies or over a range of constituencies. If it is possible for people to vote in Seanad elections — the Minister referred to how this might be undertaken — it is possible for them to vote in Dáil elections. There are plenty of precedents. Americans, South Africans and others living here have been able to vote in their own elections in our country.

I do not believe the proposal has been well thought out, and that has been confirmed in the course of the debate. I did not hear anything specific from the proposer and seconder of the motion about what exactly is proposed, how the system will operate and its potential difficulties. I have the feeling that we are seeing nothing more than an effort to get the so called monkey of the emigrant vote off the back of the Government. Nothing more or less than this is being presented to us. The Minister has posed questions but we are short on specifics.

We are told that a Bill will be introduced. Given the lifetime of the Government, even if it is to run its full term, one would have to question whether we can look forward to welcoming emigrant representatives to this House after the next general election given the speed with which legislation comes to and is disposed of in the House. Platitudes about looking forward to welcoming emigrants after the next general election are not good enough. We must ask how they will vote and how they will attend Seanad Éireann. There is the very practical difficulty of how people who might be elected from the emigrant community rather than just by it would sit in the House and how arrangements would be made to ensure they could participate on a regular basis in the debates of the House.

We can all go through the ritual of cherishing Irish emigrants and saying what wonderful people they are, which is true, but it does not do anything to address their problems. We have a responsibility as a country which has exported so many people to ensure that they have a right to participate in the life of this country and to identify with it. This can most effectively be done, not through the allocation of a mere three seats in Seanad Éireann, laudable as that might be, but through the operation of the ultimate right which every citizen has, which is to vote in a Dáil election.

How might absentees participate fully? Perhaps we might have Dr. Tony O'Reilly here as a Senator representing the emigrant vote, or perhaps he is a resident, I do not know. The Minister for Finance can probably tell us more accurately what is his status, whether he is an emigrant or an Irish tax resident.

Mr. D. Kiely

Or the Revenue Commissioners.

Mr. Dardis

This brings us to the point of representation without taxation which was the origin of the American War of Independence. I do not see it as being relevant that an emigrant should have to pay tax to his or her country of origin to be represented in its parliament. This is a spurious argument to which I do not subscribe.

The question arises as to who should vote. Obviously it should be Irish citizens. I would be liberal on the time scale I would impose on them in terms of their absence from the country. I would take the view that if they are Irish citizens and are resident abroad, it does not matter how long they are out of the country. Their citizenship should confer on them the right to vote.

What we have this evening is extremely short on specifics. We await the Bill with interest to see what is in it. Anything we can do to avoid platitudes and get down to specifics would be merited. Possibly the idea is to placate an electorate by putting them in a situation in which it can have very little effect. The maximum effect could be a direct vote in general elections. I accept there are difficulties about what constituencies to which emigrants might be allocated or from which they might originate but this can be overcome. The primary principle involved is that citizenship confers on citizens the right to vote for the Lower House of Parliament.

The question arises as to whether we can have legislation within the available time scale. I do not accuse the Government of being cynical in its intent but I wonder whether the necessary legislation will be in force in time to allow emigrants to be represented in this House after the next general election. Perhaps some of them prefer to forget Irish politics because they were forced to leave the country rather than wish to participate but at least let us try it out and if they wish to participate they will be very welcome in this House, as they would be in the other.

Mr. D. Kiely

I welcome the Minister and the debate on this motion. It is a sad day that we have to discuss a motion on emigrants. I wonder how many other countries had to sit in their Houses of Parliament discussing the rights of their emigrants to vote. It is a sad reflection on our country that we have to do so.

I was an emigrant in the United States for over ten years. There are active groups involved there who are very interested in the future development of this country and have been involved in programmes of development here. Most emigrants I have met from different sections of the community in the many parts of the world have the good of this country at heart.

The proposed Bill will be very difficult to implement. It will be interesting to see how the Government will attempt to do this. I welcome the fact that the three Seanad seats for emigrants will be taken from the Taoiseach's 11 nominees. This point has been clarified. How we put such a voting apparatus into place is a different kettle of fish.

I come from a family of 14 and 12 of us were forced to emigrate. The Minister asks whether there should be a cut-off point related to the length of time people have left the country whether this should be ten, 15 or 20 years. I left when I was 16 years old and if the cut-off period was 15 years and I was still an emigrant I would be entitled to vote.

Most of the people who emigrated to the United States when I did took out American citizenship but they are also citizens of Ireland. They hold Irish passports for which they pay £45. I know others who have Irish passports and paid enormous sums for them. They do not have seed or breed of anyone belonging to them in this country and they live abroad. The grandson of an Irish citizen is legally entitled to apply for an Irish passport provided he can prove his grandfather or grandmother was born here. He can go to the Passport Office in Molesworth Street with the proper documentation and obtain a passport for £45.

Who will be entitled to vote in Seanad elections? As chairman of my party's emigration reform movement I was involved in setting up the emigration reform movement in the United States and getting various people involved, including the Catholic charities, the Irish consuls and the Taoiseach of the day, Charles Haughey. A contribution of £250,000 was even made available in one budget to set up a Washington lobby group to help illegal Irish emigrants to obtain legal status.

I have worked with those people in the United States but that is only one section of the Irish community. Another large section of our people lives in the United Kingdom but where does that begin, with their children or grandchildren? This is not an easy issue but I look forward to this legislation being introduced to the House.

Although we only sit in this House for two or sometimes three days a week, if one of the new representatives was working in Russia they would have to come back and forth to this House every time we sat——

Mr. Daly

Or Australia.

Mr. D. Kiely

——Or Australia, Korea, Hong Kong and Eastern Europe. Our people are all over the world.

Mr. Daly

Guadeloupe.

Mr. D. Kiely

A good few from Guadeloupe but we rescued that group, thanks be to God.

The Minister said he would like to get opinions from both sides of the House and I appreciate that because guidelines will have to be drawn up. This is a move in the right direction because emigrant representatives would have a lot to offer this country. I complimented the late Gerry O'Sullivan for introducing his Bill in 1991 but if he was sitting here now I might not be in agreement with the Bill he proposed to introduce at that time. However, once the framework is there we can work on it and table amendments.

It is high time emigrants had a voice in this House and it would be nice to think that whoever is elected to represent the emigrants would have to reside here. With regard to the United States, I speak from experience. The Irish who went there as young people attained high positions all over the US. They made their mark and influenced many people, through the Irish-American partnership fund and other ventures, to invest money here. The representation should come from that area and could work through the Irish groups and associations already in place.

The Irish consulates must be complimented because their doors are always open to any emigrants with problems. It would be great to have a public representative for these people as well. I look forward to the Bill being introduced to the House.

Mr. Cotter

I welcome the Minister to the House. I support the Government's position on this proposal even though it is a difficult one. The easy decision to have three Senators representing Irish communities abroad has been taken. They will not be additional seats but will come from the Taoiseach's 11 nominees. I notice from the Minister's speech that he has not yet come to a conclusion on the mechanics of holding an election. While everybody's view will be important the easy decision would be for the Taoiseach to nominate three people and if I were taking the decision I might come to that conclusion.

However, at this early stage I cannot conceive how it will be possible to have a fair system of election when you are trying to take in all the Irish people abroad. There will be huge communication problems as Senator Kiely mentioned. You find Irish people in the strangest locations. How do you reach the one Irish person in a population of ten million? Huge problems will be involved in devising a system which is both fair and free, and the Minister will have to deliberate on these.

There is broad agreement that we should have representation for all sorts of good reasons but we can also point to the pitfalls. Some people say that those who do not have a stake in the country — and who would be able to change decisions in a tight situation affecting the lives of everybody, but not their own — should not be allowed to vote. I suppose there are arguments for and against that viewpoint.

It is compassionate to allow Irish communities abroad to have representation here, and those who have emigrated would tell you about their feeling of loss. The support that we have, like an aunt and uncle down the road, the extended family, does not exist for emigrants and they are very isolated. If one of our children gets sick we can call on relatives for support but the emigrant cannot do that.

We have a sense of compassion for our people who live abroad and if we give them representation here, it would give them a feeling of belonging. Our future discussions would be enriched by their views and there would be a cross-fertilisation of ideas. From my own contacts with Irish people abroad I know that many are actively involved and totally assimilated in their communities where they are highly respected. Their views would enrich the proceedings of the House and would introduce new ideas from which we would benefit. I support the legislation to give emigrants a feeling of belonging as well as giving us the benefit of their differing views.

The difficulty arises in forming their constituency. Are we going to divide the world into three constituencies with some system of nomination within each? The unwieldly nature of that is beyond my power of understanding. How can you organise it so that everybody in such a constituency who wants to vote can do so? How do you supply everybody with the information and knowledge they require? We do not have a register at this time. Is it possible to create such a register? Would the cost be enormous? When one is dealing with such matters it might be wise to steer clear of mundane issues such as the cost, but it is a factor. It might be better to leave that aside and say this should be done because it is a good thing and fire ahead on that basis.

In many parts of the world the Irish people are organised in associations by county or country. Such associations are called the Irish Association, the Cavan Association, the Monaghan Association and so on and I visited many of them. However, in other parts of the world they are not organised in that way. What one might consider to be a good way of handling this situation in Great Britain and parts of America would not suit other parts of the world. We therefore have an amount of thinking to do on the difficulties involved in putting this into operation. The decision we make or consensus we reach after much deliberation and discussion of the pros and cons will be worthwhile. I look forward to further ideas from the Minister's office. No doubt they are continuing to look at the difficulties involved. I also look forward to further discussions here. Many of us have not given much thought to this yet and would welcome the opportunity of further discussion. This proposal will be good for us and for the identity of Irish people across the world and we will benefit from it. For those reasons I support the Government's position.

Dr. Henry

I welcome the Minister to the House. Like most of the Senators who have spoken, I broadly welcome the Bill. I definitely welcome the idea of giving emigrants a voice in how this country is run. However, like Senator Cotter, I believe the logistics of this will be extraordinarily difficult.

People mention that citizens of other countries who live abroad have voting rights. It is important to remember that the proportion of Americans living abroad is tiny when compared with the whole American population. In our case there are five million people on this island while there are 72 million people with Irish passports living abroad. Some of these people may never have lived in Ireland and may only have taken up citizenship through the right of ancestry. Others of course may have acquired passports through business investments here. The huge number of citizens abroad who will be entitled to vote as compared with those at home is an enormous consideration. The Minister is therefore wise not to give the voting rights in Dáil elections. A concerted group of emigrants in a large city abroad could have a huge influence on one constituency. It was wiser to select the Seanad.

Earlier this year, I already gave away three of the Taoiseach's 11 seats to the other University graduates and am about to give away another three. Considering the stability of the Government and the great assistance they are being given by the Independent Senators. I have no doubt that in the next two and a half years they will have no trouble and we will have thought of a means of dealing with this in the meantime. However, the Minister has asked for some comments to facilitate drawing up the necessary detailed scheme for emigrant voting in good time for the referendum which, after all, is to take place in the summer and I will try to put forward a few comments which I think would be useful.

While we are holding the referendum to cover Seanad seats, which will be difficult to organise, would the Minister consider extending the right to vote to presidential elections and referenda? Concerted groups of voters in one area could not have a great influence on the whole but it would at least give people an emotional tie to the country which I agree, in general they have had to leave against their volition. When I talk to emigrants about votes it often seems that they want to improve us rather than have us do anything for them. They might believe they have a chance to improve us by participating in referenda.

I am anxious about the organisation of where the voting will take place, not to mind registers. The Minister can get advice on the registers from the universities. Compiling and updating these registers is a nightmare. The University of Dublin register is more up to date because it involves a smaller number. It is about 80 per cent correct and a tremendous amount of work has been put into it. However, the National University of Ireland register is only 50 to 60 per cent correct. This is not because people are unwilling to register to vote but rather because they forget to give notification of a change of address or leave forwarding addresses with people who fail to send on post.

I realise that the constituencies have not been delineated. If there is one constituency for America, one for Great Britain and one for the rest of the world, it will be extremely difficult for any candidate to cover these constituencies. For a start, who will pay for their campaign? I say that with some feeling, having had to pay for a campaign myself. I assure Senator Roche that the university seat campaigns are not to be underestimated, especially when there are 16 in the field. I am glad to say that Senator Norris and I came through very satisfactorily on the last occasion and I am sure we will also do so the next time.

Those are enormous difficulties for candidates. Some of the most worthwhile candidates will be unable to put up the money to run a decent campaign. These seats could then be taken over by the political parties as they are best able to organise a campaign to win the seat. If these Senators are party political, their value will be lost.

It is important to remember that those elected will represent the best organised emigrants. We talk about the plight of our emigrants and how we want to help them, but those elected will not be in a position to help the homeless. The Irish figure for homelessness in, for example, the major cities in England is higher than most other nationalities. They will not be able to help those who have a sense of failure and believe they cannot come back to Ireland, because unless one is a success as an emigrant it is impossible to come back.

As Senator Cotter pointed out, they will have the additional problem of attendance. If they live here they will not really be representing their constituency. It is possible to commute from England or the Continent and it is just about possible to consider commuting from New York.

A colleague of mine who was in the Royal College of Surgeons represents Vancouver Central in the Ottawa Parliament and is second in command in the Department of Health. She spends a considerable amount of time on planes between Vancouver and Ottawa as well as having to go out on ministerial duty. She has spoken to me about how little time she gets to spend with her constituents. This could be a problem for anyone attending from further abroad than New York.

It would be worthwhile to have our emigrants' views, but I wonder if the logistics of this can be organised fairly before the next general election even allowing for the stability of the Government. I am aware of the work that goes into the compilation of the registers for the two university constituencies and I suggest that the Department talks to them to get advice on this. It is not like the American elections where a smaller number of people are abroad than are voting in America. We could have more people voting abroad than in Ireland, so this is a serious situation. It would be foolish to rush into a decision about how to elect these people. I would prefer if permission was given to hold a referendum and if further thought and effort was given to how the election will take place. Perhaps we should consider delaying it until a future election.

Mr. Norris

I am glad to take part in this debate, which I welcome. Some of my colleagues, particularly Senator O'Toole, claimed to be the first person to suggest this. I thought I was the first person to suggest this during a debate which took place in the Seanad about six or seven years ago in Private Members' Time. Senator Ross tabled a motion on the reform of the Seanad and that was one of the ideas mentioned, although I do not think it was original at that time. As the Minister said in his speech, this idea has been around for some time.

I was in Australia approximately two years ago and I was canvassed quite actively by people from Glór na nDeoraí. I trotted out this idea of representation in the Seanad and pointed out that I had recommended it during this debate. I thought they would be foaming at the mouth with gratitude, but they disdained it; they thought it was an inadequate response. It is worthwhile to place on the record of the House the fact that not all emigrant groups would regard this as a completely satisfactory answer; they would probably regard it as a first stage. They would be looking for something more vigorous and in the Lower House, which they regard as the focus of real political action. They see us as a more reflective and considered House of amendment and encouragement to the Government in its policy rather than as the initiators of policy. The emigrants will look for something in what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as a more key area.

Analogies have been drawn with the university seats and, as the Minister knows, I am an advocate of this and I regard it as the most democratic element in this House. Estimates of the numbers of graduates from the University of Dublin living abroad have been greatly exaggerated. The House should be aware of the fact that — my colleague, Senator Henry, will probably back me up on this — approximately 50 or 60 per cent now live in the greater Dublin area, mostly on the north side.

I was challenged earlier by Senator Roche, who said he would love to see me pounding the beat. I did pound the beat because a couple of elections ago I worked out the demography of the University of Dublin constituency and I discovered there was such a heavy concentration of voters in Dublin 2 and Dublin 4 that it was worth my while to get a street map and a register and to knock on doors. This revealed to me the extent of middle class loneliness in the suburbs of Dublin. I hope they do not read this debate and feel insulted and refuse to vote for me in future. I was told their husbands were playing golf or their children had grown up and had gone abroad and were looking for votes. It was a time consuming exercise, but I know what it is like to pound the beat.

As regards county councils, I was invited by my illustrious colleague, Senator and Councillor D. Kiely, to visit the General Council of County Councils in——

An Cathaoirleach

Ballybunion.

Mr. Norris

——Ballybunion. Perhaps you, a Chathaoirligh, were there. We had a wonderful ding-dong because I said a few things about section 4 planning approvals, which rose the councillors, and we had a terrific time in Ballybunion. They had already bought the Waterford Crystal vase, so they had to present it to me. I found it invigorating because it was a frank and free exchange of views. I am not so brittle and delicate that I could not withstand a local council election, but I do not want to exercise the dual mandate. I could be indiscreet and say there are those in this House who signed a motion some years ago complaining about the dual mandate who now exercise it.

It is important to give a voice to emigrants. The President spoke movingly in the past couple of weeks in the other House and addressed the nation through the public representatives on the subject of the diaspora. Senator Dardis mentioned the old catch phrase from the American War of Independence about no taxation without representation. Some people would turn this on its head and say there should be no representation if there is no taxation. That is a mean minded, begrudging idea because many people who have to live abroad are constrained by circumstances to do so and they would be only too happy to live in Ireland and to pay taxation if they had the opportunity, which they are, unfortunately, denied.

I echo Senator Henry's point about campaign expenses. It costs a lot of money, particularly before one gets elected, but once one is elected one is in the enviable position of having Oireachtas postage and that covers a certain amount of the expenses. Perhaps the Minister will communicate back to his colleagues the fact that there is considerable ire and scepticism about the constitutionality of provisions to provide expenses to the political parties, to the Green Party and others, but to exclude an important group, the Independents, who now hold the balance of power in the Seanad. If there was ever a crunch vote, it was a vote on that nasty little piece of thimble riggery. I am delighted to see the Minister making a note on this point.

Many of our people are in England and I believe there would be a heavy participation and that people of conscience would represent the homeless. If one is in London or New York one frequently hears an Irish accent among the homeless and down and outs. This is a reproach to us and we should consider this matter.

I welcome the fact that the Government has decided to extract these three seats from the Taoiseach's eleven nominees and not to monkey around with some of the other constituencies, which may have been a temptation.

The Minister asked a number of questions which I would like to answer. He wanted to know if voting rights should be "extended to all Irish citizens abroad, or be confined to citizens abroad who lived in this country for a specified minimum period". I have no difficulty in answering in an unqualified manner that voting rights should be extended to all Irish citizens. If one holds citizenship, why should one have demarcation, discrimination and a second level of citizenship? There should not be degrees of citizenship: either one is a citizen or one is not. My answer is clear and unequivocal. The second question he asked was: "Should the extension of voting rights be open-ended, or should there be a cut-off point...?" He then mentioned five, ten or 20 years. There should not be a cut-off point; it should be for all Irish citizens.

The Minister also wanted to know how we could deal with the "position of graduate emigrants, who already have the right to vote at Seanad university elections". They should be left alone. Why should they not vote twice? Many people vote three or four times, particularly those who are Members of this House. If they are graduates, they vote in the general election for the Dáil, they vote in the election for university representation and they vote on four or five panels. So let us not be po-faced about it. We already have multiple voting and I do not see why people should be excluded from voting on a university panel because they are Irish citizens living abroad. They should have both.

The next question was: "Should an annual register of emigrant voters be prepared, or should a special register be drawn up when an election is called?" Of course it should be an annual register. Drawing up a register in the heat of a suddenly called election would mean chaos. I suggest they talk to the people. I cannot speak for the National University of Ireland, although I am sure it does a good job, but they do a good job in the Seanad electoral office in Trinity College Dublin. They meticulously keep records, which is why we have a record of approximately 60 per cent participation, highly unusual in a postal ballot. They do that because they keep the register up to date all the time.

Another question the Minister asked was what "qualifications should be required of candidates and what method of nomination should be provided for". One would get the impression that I think university constituencies are wonderful, and I do. I suggest that the Minister should look at the method of nomination and balloting of university seats because that covers the way in which one must be nominated. There must be a proposer, a seconder and eight assenters. One must have a witness, sign the document to show one is a citizen and swear a declaration. There are three envelopes. This works efficiently in a postal sense.

The qualification should be that the people should be Irish citizens, they should attest to that fact, and they should have a minimum of three months permanent residence at a postal address to facilitate the keeping of the register. This suggestion covers the voting arrangements to be put in place to meet the reasonable requirements of an election while providing safeguards essential to the secrecy and integrity of the ballot.

Finally the Minister was forced to turn to the late and greatly lamented Sam Goldwyn for a quote; he declined to prophesise about anything, particularly the future. Why did he not quote the much lamented late Member of the Lower House of the Ascendancy Parliament, Sir Boyle Roche? He said: "Posterity be damned! Why should we do anything for it; what did it ever do for us?"

Mr. McDonagh

We had a meaningful debate this evening. At times it was exhilerating, at times loquacious in the extreme, verbiage being the keynote. The great American writer Walt Whitman said: "Words are like leaves, they can be tossed in various directions." This is an historic motion and a momentous occasion in the Seanad. One hopes we get more than words, we will get action.

There is a general commitment to offer recognition to our emigrants who have traversed the world and probably been our most able ambassadors at no cost to the nation. The Irish never lost sight of their roots: they have established Gaelic Park in New York, GAA clubs like Seán Treacy's in London and the various agencies which have given aid to emigrants through the years.

It is obvious to everyone here that further deliberation and discussion is necessary. Neither I nor my party have a problem with that, being the open transparent party that we are.

Mr. Kelleher

We can see through them.

Mr. McDonagh

We believe that like confession, discussion and deliberation are at all times good for the soul. To the Opposition I say the process should not be slowed down.

Mr. Daly

That is not our intention.

Mr. Roche

The Senator should have listened to us. We did not suggest slowing it down.

Mr. McDonagh

The time has come for action. This initiative by the Government may be seen as a trifle but to quote the great English writer G.K. Chesterton. "Trifles make perfection but perfection is no trifle." We are moving forward graciously to extend recognition to our emigrants. It is a step in the right direction towards greater participation by them at all levels in the future. I commend the motion to the House.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications (Mr. Stagg)

The Minister for the Environment hopes the detail of his proposals will be teased out by the appropriate committee of the Oireachtas in due course.

Question put and agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. McDonagh

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.