Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 May 1995

Vol. 143 No. 10

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

First, I thank you for so readily agreeing to act as temporary Chairman for our activities today. The Cathaoirleach is well and we hope to have him back very shortly but he will not be in the Chair for the remainder of today. We all send him our very best wishes.

The Order of Business today is item 1 and item 14, motion No. 16. Item 1 is the Second Stage of the Stock Exchange Bill. Speeches by agreement are not to be longer than 20 minutes. I have been asked by the Leader of the Opposition and by other Members of the Opposition if time could be made available for statements on the Attorney General's Office. There is no point in having statements today as the matter has been very fully and exhaustively dealt with in the other House, but I am prepared to discuss the matter afresh tomorrow morning with the Leader of the Opposition and the Opposition Whips and if they then think it appropriate that time be made available for statements tomorrow, I will agree. I know this matter will be raised so I am anticipating it.

Mr. Wright

Thank you, Senator Lanigan, for taking the position of Acting Chairman so readily. I am glad the Leader has pre-empted our concerns. I know of his absolute commitment to making this House relevant and ensuring that we are kept informed. In that context, there is a need for statements on the events relating to the Attorney General's Office. We hope not just for a discussion between the Whips, but that statements on the Attorney General's Office would be ordered for tomorrow, as the Leader suggested. We would have difficulty agreeing an Order of Business tomorrow without such statements being ordered.

Mr. O'Toole

I wish to raise the issue which has been mentioned by Senator Wright, that is, the need to have a debate on the Attorney General's Office. I am happy to wait until tomorrow for this debate; that makes a lot of sense. This matter has been debated before in the House quite usefully. We should be told exactly what has happened. This is not merely a question of people letting off steam or putting forward their point of view. We need a statement giving us the Government position on the issue.

I also wish to take the opportunity to put on the record my gratitude to Deputy Coveney for his dealings with Members of the House, particularly myself during his period as Minister for Defence. I feel great sympathy towards him. It is a very brave person who can stand up and cast the first stone. I appreciate his commitment to public life and I have sympathy for him. I would be pleased to have that sentiment communicated to him.

I wish to raise an issue which has been raised with me by a number of organisations dealing with people with particular disabilities, that is, the proposal that a tax would be put on blank cassette tapes. This would have extraordinary implications for those who are vision impaired and may rely on audio cassettes and also for people with other difficulties and disabilities. This would also have very serious implications for education and for those who need to be able to record material. Were that to happen, it would be a tax on legal as well as illegal activities. I am worried about this. I tried to establish that myself rather than waste the time of the House through the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, but I am not sure if that Department has responsibility for this area. It did not appear on the Government's list of forthcoming legislation, but it has been brought to my attention that it is intended to introduce it. I ask the Leader to deal with this matter.

Will the Leader outline the current position regarding the debate on the White Paper on education?

I wish the Acting Chairman well in his new role as poacher turned gamekeeper and I extend good wishes to the Cathaoirleach.

Acting Chairman

I hope the Senator meant that.

Ms Honan

I welcome the Leader's announcement about a debate tomorrow on the Office of the Attorney General. It is a vital matter and I look forward to it.

I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health to the House to outline when mandatory reporting, as recommended by the report on the Kilkenny incest case, and the outstanding sections of the Childcare Act will be introduced. In light of the horrific evidence of official neglect which was revealed in the west of Ireland incest case yesterday, all Members are anxious that these measures should be taken immediately.

The independent review body set up by the Minister is a waste of time because statutory childcare professionals will be investigating themselves. They do not have the co-operation of the family and we already know what needs to be done from the Kilkenny incest case. In that case, nobody was held accountable and I fear the same thing will happen in this case. Children will have no faith in the system if they feel, as one of the girls in that case stated, that they must be armed with an honours degree before the professionals will believe them.

This situation is an appalling indictment of all Members. Somebody asked me this morning about the business of the House today and I almost felt ashamed——

Acting Chairman

I am sorry to put the reins on the Senator, but I have given her sufficient scope. The Senator is making a speech.

Ms Honan

——to say that this important issue was not being discussed.

Acting Chairman

A question to the Leader.

Mr. O'Toole

I cannot believe it.

Acting Chairman

The day of the soft touch is gone.

Ms Honan

I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health to the House to discuss this matter and the Blood Transfusion Service, which is another scandalous issue.

Mr. Mulcahy

I do not wish to raise certain matters in advance of the debate tomorrow but I join Senator Wright in thanking the Leader of the House for making time available for this urgent issue. I am sure the Leader shares the concern and dismay of the public about the fact that this issue has resurfaced. I thought this Government would have laid this matter to rest. Many members of the public have already contacted me and expressed annoyance, confusion and alarm that this issue has reemerged.

Acting Chairman

Does the Senator have a question to the Leader on today's Order of Business rather than tomorrow's agenda?

Mr. O'Kennedy

Leave something for the rest of us.

Mr. Mulcahy

If a debate is held tomorrow, I hope it will cover the general policy of the Office of the Attorney General and the exercise of control, or lack of control, on the part of the Government in relation to it. This is an important point. I ask the Leader to confirm that the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice will come to the House for the debate because there is no point holding a discussion in a vacuum. Fianna Fáil unjustifiably received a great deal of blame for this affair some months ago.

Acting Chairman

Does the Senator have a question to the Leader on today's Order of Business?

Mr. Mulcahy

Will the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice come to the House tomorrow to answer these important questions?

Dr. Henry

I support Senator Honan's call for the introduction of mandatory reporting as soon as possible in cases of child sexual and physical abuse.

I wish to raise a matter which relates to the Finance Bill but, in view of the fact that we have so little control over it, I hope something can be done about it before next week. During the debate on the Arterial Drainage Bill, the Irish Red Cross was continually praised for the flooding relief it provided. Because of domestic commitments, the Irish Red Cross is in the invidious position; people will not be allowed claim tax relief on donations to this organisation and, therefore, overseas organisations will be in a more advantageous position. Could the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Foreign Affairs see any way of rectifying this situation in the Finance Bill? I gather there are mechanisms by which exemptions can be given. If they are doing work for us on the ground, it seems most unfortunate that their overseas work would be penalised.

Mr. McGowan

I would like the House to congratulate the people who made the drama series "The Hanging Gale" on the grounds that it has been acclaimed all over Europe as a very successful record of the Famine in Ireland. It focussed on my county and, particularly, on Lifford. This is the first time in my career in the Seanad to send congratulations but I think it is worth the House's while to note that a very admirable drama series has been put together in way which has been accepted abroad. Lifford Jail has been replaced at a cost of £2 million.

Acting Chairman

Are you asking the Leader to pay for Lifford Jail?

Mr. Magner

Or to be sent to Lifford Jail.

Mr. McGowan

I am asking the Leader to tell every Member he is welcome to visit the restored building, which was seen in "The Hanging Gale". This is a major work and I ask the House to compliment those involved in putting it together.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I am tempted to commend RTE and the traditional hospitality of Páirc Uí Chaoimh for the excellent coverage of the match between Tipperary and Waterford last Sunday but I will refrain.

Mr. Neville

Wait until the end of June.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I ask that the matter about disabled drivers which I requested to be raised on the Adjournment be considered tomorrow. This may be the formal procedure in any event.

I join with my colleagues in expressing our appreciation to the Leader for his response to the request for a special debate on the Attorney General's Office. His response was very expeditious. I raised this issue at our front bench meeting a half an hour before we broke for lunch. I appreciate that the Leader has responded in the way he has. I hope it will be possible to have a well informed and responsible debate. I wanted to raise this matter because of the constitutional, not the personal, implications.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I welcome the publication of the harbours Bill. Unfortunately, Deputy Coveney is no longer Minister for the Marine. He is the man to whom I give most credit for publishing this Bill sooner than expected. I regret very much what has happened and I thank him for his kindness to me during his term of office. When this Bill will come before both Houses? Will it be initiated in the Seanad? Can it be taken before the summer recess?

Last week we had statements on banking. Does the Leader intend providing time for statements on building societies, the process of getting mortgages and the pressures on people looking for mortgages to take out exorbitant and excessive insurance policies? We should have a discussion dealing exclusively with building societies and mortgages.

Mr. Roche

When will we have the debate on education and the difficulties relating to it which was promised last week? The events of yesterday are now history. Could we schedule this debate for an early date? We discussed education and the industrial relations problems and related issues last week.

In view of the crisis that has broken out yet again in the Attorney General's Office, is it likely we will see the administrative procedures Bill, which is promised in the Programme for Government, in the near future? One of its critical parts is that all State agencies, including the Attorney General's Office, would be required to respond to any correspondence within a specified time. At this stage, we would all accept that such a Bill, if it applied to the Attorney General's Office, would save us all a lot of trouble. Will the Leader inquire of the relevant Minister whether it is possible to have that Bill taken here at an early stage? This House would be the appropriate place to introduce and deal with it. I probably will not be here at the time but I can make sure some friends are briefed.

Mr. O'Kennedy

When are you moving?

Mr. Magner

Senator Roche has holiday plans.

Mr. Roche

I will be cheering from the wings.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Kennedy

No longer our distinguished colleague; will he give a farewell party?

Mr. Roche

Senator Henry mentioned the extraordinary situation in which the Irish Red Cross Society finds itself because of the Finance Bill, 1995. There will be some response from this side of the House when that Bill comes before the House next week. It would be sensible if the Government looked at those provisions in advance because they put the Irish Red Cross Society in a most difficult situation.

Finally, can the Leader clarify that the Taoiseach, or an appropriately senior Minister, a member of Cabinet, will be in attendance? There was an extraordinary debate today in the Dáil; that seems to be the order of that House. Can we ensure there is clarity about who knew what when? It would help because there seems to be some confusion about that in the other House.

Mr. Norris

I join with other Members in sending my good wishes for a speedy recovery to the Cathaoirleach. On that point, the conditions in this House are quite unacceptable in a modern parliament. It is stifling here. I am surprised there are not more people feeling unwell. Perhaps the Leader could examine the possibility of having some minimal form of air conditioning installed over the summer recess. It is mad to have this system pumping out heat at this time of the year.

I welcome the fact that there will be statements tomorrow and I hope it is a definite promise. I listened to the debate in the Dáil and I was interested in what I heard. It seems we were getting from the Taoiseach redefinition of what being economical with the truth is. I was reminded of the medical phrase, one must not kill but need not strive officiously to keep alive. It seems what was being said is that one must not lie but need not strive officiously to tell the truth.

Acting Chairman

What sort of a question is that?

Mr. Norris

The question is can we have a clear undertaking that there will, in fact, be statements tomorrow?

May I raise a couple of other issues? Item 14, motion No. 2, on the Order Paper is a motion on East Timor. Is it possible to have a debate of this subject within the reasonably near future? A senior Indonesian Minister visited this country yesterday and had discussions about trade agreements which were kept secret. In the light of what we were talking about in terms of transparency, it seems odd because the Tánaiste last year spoke about urging the European Union to consider an economic boycott of the Indonesian dictatorship. It would be useful to have a debate in the light of that fact and in the light of the fact that next week Members from all parties in this House will be going to a conference in Portugal on East Timor.

I ask also that time be provided for the discussion of item 14, motion No. 17. My colleague, Senator Henry, and I attended the conference of European parliamentarians on HIV/AIDS in Barcelona last week and we were asked to table the report in all our domestic parliaments and to have it discussed as soon as possible.

Mr. Finneran

Motion No. 9 has been on the Order Paper since March. The issues it intends to address are regularly reported in the national media and no more so than in recent days. I join with Senator Honan and Senator Henry in calling for a debate on this matter. Our motion requested the full implementation of the provisions of the Child Care Act, but in light of what has happened in recent days I do not think that would be sufficient. I ask the Leader of the House to impress upon the Minister for Health the need for a full debate on this issue and for a full public inquiry into the child abuse case in the west. It has been established that existing legislation does not allow for statutory reporting of abuse cases. We seem to have a severe difficulty with this issue. The public are now expressing grave concern. It would be very opportune for the Minister for Health to attend this House. I ask the Leader to have him attend, as soon as possible, to debate this matter of grave public concern in this House.

Mr. Cassidy

I concur with Senator Henry and Senator Roche in relation to the Finance Bill, which comes before this House next week. As Senator Henry pointed out, this will be a major problem for the Government with regard to the Red Cross and all other charitable organisations. I received strong representations from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul about this issue. This is a matter of urgency. I ask the Leader to take this into account when we are dealing with next week's legislation. When will the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht come to this House to discuss the Green Paper on communications and broadcasting? It would be a good idea for him to hear the views of Senators. I wish the Cathaoirleach a speedy recovery.

Senator O'Toole expressed concern about the possible imposition of a tax on blank tapes and its effect on those who are visually impaired and people with other difficulties and disabilities. However, there is another side to the story. A young person in Dundalk was manufacturing 120,000 blank tapes; this was decimating the live music business in Ireland and across the world. I concur that the handicapped and the education aspect should be covered in such a way that they would be exempt from this tax. This has now become law in all EU member states; Ireland is one of the last states to implement it. I would certainly concede to the wishes of Senator O'Toole with regard to the handicapped and education.

Mr. Magner

Will the Leader take the opportunity to have a debate on the results of the Washington conference and the fruits of the labour of many people from Ireland who are there? Taking into account the statement made by Senator Roche regarding his anticipated absence from this House, perhaps the Leader would ask him about his holiday plans for 1995.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Farewell.

Mr. Cassidy

He will be an excellent candidate when you are in power.

Mr. Roche

Same as always.

Mr. Lydon

The Leader may already have made a statement about this but when will the White Paper on mental health be published? Could we have a debate on it as soon as possible? I have heard that there are very serious implications for long-term psychiatric patients in this White Paper and the sooner it is debated the better.

Mr. Manning

Quite a number of issues have been raised. With regard to Senator Wright's contribution, it is clearly the wish of the House to have statements tomorrow. The only matter to be discussed is the timing. I can assure Senator Mulcahy and Senator O'Kennedy that an appropriate member of Government will be present. Senator O'Toole raised the need for a debate on education. That is open-ended. It is a question of finding an appropriate time-slot. That debate is continuing, as indeed is a debate on banking which was raised by another Senator.

When the debate on banking resumes, we might with the agreement of the House include areas like building societies and other credit institutions. The debate on the last day was unnecessarily restricted by ruling out these categories.

I am not aware of the point raised by Senator O'Toole about tapes. I will consider it but I agree with Senator Cassidy that it would be helpful to have a further debate on the music and entertainment industry.

I feel a little guilty as regards Senator Honan because I have promised her a debate on health. Both Senator Honan and Senator Finneran have consistently raised a number of issues in this regard. I will endeavour to have a full debate on the issues the Senator raised as soon as possible. With so much legislation coming up in this House, it is a question of finding the time to do it, but I will do my best to arrange that. I have already answered the question raised by Senator Mulcahy. I accept the point raised by Senator Henry about the Irish Red Cross. That, of course, will be eligible for discussion next week during the Finance Bill.

I agree with Senator McGowan about "The Hanging Gale". It is a useful piece of anti-revisionist history writing. It is a first class production. Of course, a welcome from County Donegal will always be accepted. Senator O'Kennedy asked for a full debate on the Office of the Attorney General.

Senator Fitzgerald mentioned the Harbours Bill, 1995. It was in part due to the Senator's urging in this House that greater urgency was given to the production of this Bill. It was promised to him by the former Minister for Defence and the Marine, Deputy Coveney. I join with Senator O'Toole and Senator Fitzgerald in saying that as Minister for Defence and the Marine, Deputy Coveney was an example of how a Minister should behave. Deputy Coveney was courteous, sincere in everything he said and lived up to the promise he gave to Senator Fitzgerald to produce the Harbours Bill, 1995. I will make every effort to see that it is processed before the summer recess.

Senator Roche referred to education and that debate will continue. The Senator also mentioned the likely outcome of the Wicklow by-election. Of course, all of us in this House wish the Senator well, maybe for different reasons. However, I remind the Senator of the old catechism; he is old enough to remember it. There was a definition of the sin called presumption. It was defined as a foolish expectation of salvation without taking the means necessary to attain it. We wish the Senator well in the by-election, but remember the old catechism.

Senator Norris referred to air conditioning and I agree with him. The air was hot today even before we started talking, but I will see if anything can be done. There is a foreign affairs debate in progress. If we reschedule that, it would allow Senator Norris to raise the issues on East Timor. I agree the conference the Senator will attend next week is important and both he and Senator Henry may be able to report on it back to the House. On the point raised by Senator Magner it should be appropriate and possible within our structures to get a report back from the Washington conference from Members there.

I told Senator Lydon a week or two ago that the Department of Health expects the White Paper on mental health to be published shortly.

Order of Business agreed to.