Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Jul 1995

Vol. 144 No. 10

Adjournment Matter. - Higher Diploma in Education Courses.

Miss Ormonde

I have raised the matter of higher diploma places because of concerns raised by my constituents. Senator Daly also raised it on the Order of Business earlier in the year.

Graduates who have completed their primary degree are discovering that they cannot get a place under this allocation for the simple reason the Higher Education Authority has decided to impose a limit on the number of places available. I want to ask the Minister if autonomy has been taken away from the universities in this regard. I understand that the Higher Education Authority, the Department of Education and the universities reached agreement but the Higher Education Authority initiated a limit on the number of places. This has created great concern for graduates in particular and a sense of panic has set in. Graduates now apply whether they want to pursue a career in teaching. They do, however, want to pursue a Higher Diploma in Education. Will the Minister review this matter because the allocation for this year is only 170 places while there are over 1,000 applicants for the higher diploma course? The university may see it in a different light and may be able to allocate more places. Why 170 places? What are the criteria for assessing the number of places?

The university should have more autonomy in assessing the number of places. It is not good enough for the Higher Education Authority to decide that everyone who pursues the higher education diploma will automatically enter the teaching profession. Many graduates find it a rewarding and interesting course which they do not necessarily consider a foundation for the teaching profession. It is a fine postgraduate course. It is high handed of the Higher Education Authority to impose an arbitrary number of places and to dictate the terms to the universities. I ask the Minister to review this policy and re-enter into discussions with the Higher Education Authority and the universities to see how best they can devise a suitable system. Young graduates have panicked and they continue to apply for places, although some do not necessarily want to teach. We should put these young graduates at ease as regards future policy on the allocation of places for the higher diploma in education.

Mr. Manning

May Senator Ormonde and I share our time with Senator Daly?

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Manning

While I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Fitzgerald, to the House, I am angry that no Minister from the Department of Education is here. The Minister can only read what she has been given; she has no responsibility for this matter and can only relay the views expressed. When I was on the other side of the House, I was angry when Ministers were sent in simply to read scripts. A Minister with functional responsibility should be here. However, that is no reflection on this Minister.

Like Senator Ormonde, I believe the situation is unsatisfactory. She outlined the issues at stake and I do not intend to repeat them. We have all had representations in recent weeks from people who have had to apply to all the universities. They feel their future is being determined at random with no educational criterion as a deciding factor as to whether they will get a place on the higher diploma in education course. Many are highly qualified, some have masters degrees or degrees in commerce or science, and want to make teaching their profession.

The key question is, what is the rationale behind this policy? I imagine it would be possible for the education departments in the universities to take in more people. To the best of my knowledge, the higher diploma in education is not an overly expensive course. For the most part, it is a chalk and talk type course. There are expenses as regards travel and supervision but, nonetheless, it is not inordinately expensive. Perhaps the reason for this is the shortage of teaching places for students in schools or that the Higher Education Authority or some group therein has decided that supply should be in accordance with demand and that it would be wrong to flood the market with teachers who will not get jobs. There may be good reasons for this and it will be good to hear them. I suspect the issue could be revised.

As regards the way in which the present system is administered, it is illogical that all other third level places are administered through the Central Applications Office while in this case people apply to the universities. Anomalies arise as some universities may give preference to their graduates while others may decide that this amounts to discrimination and may not do so. This imposes an enormous workload on the universities and it would be sensible and rational, even if the present policy is maintained, for applications to be made to the CAO, which has transparent, open and acceptable policies as regards allocating places. I am not saying that the universities are less than honest in what they are doing. However, it is an enormous burden on them. It also means that people must apply to three or four universities, which results in extra costs and worry for them.

Mr. Daly

I thank Senator Ormonde and the Leader of the House for affording me the opportunity to speak. I raised this issue last year when a similar situation arose, which caused anxiety not only for those who wished to pursue the course but for their parents and families. As a result of intervention the situation was eased. I am disappointed the situation has arisen again this year. There is organised chaos in this area.

The point at issue is that people who wish to pursue the higher diploma in education course to enable them to teach are denied the opportunity to do so, while others who are offered places are, in some cases, doing the course to get a further qualification and using it as a stepping stone to qualify for other positions outside the teaching profession.

Last year the Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach, said it was not realistic and sensible to spend taxpayers' money providing places on the higher diploma in education course when, as Senator Manning said, there were few vacancies and, because of the decline in the number of opportunities in the teaching profession, those with the qualification would seek positions which were not available. That is not the situation. Many people can get temporary teaching opportunities provided they have the qualification, but this limits their opportunities overseas where they may wish to teach for a year or two before trying to get back into the system here.

The most frustrating thing is that last year — I believe it is also the case this year — places were allocated on a lottery basis. It is like going to a bingo session; if you get the right numbers, you get a place. Applicants are not interviewed. That system must be changed. Regardless of whether additional places are made available, applicants should be interviewed. Senator Manning put forward an excellent idea — that this should be dealt with by the CAO where there would be a points system. The matter would be dealt with fairly and above board and it would not be a question of potluck as regards getting a place. Many of the young graduates who contacted me still hope to get a place if there are cancellations. I ask the Minister to intervene with the colleges to do something to resolve this impasse because it is causing frustration and annoyance for students and parents.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment (Ms E. Fitzgerald)

I apologise to the House that I am not the Minister for Education. The Minister of State at the Department of Education asked me to reply on his behalf. I sympathise with points made by Members, particularly the one about the CAO, which makes a lot of sense. I will relay the points to the Minister for Education.

The situation for the 1995-96 academic year is under review and decisions will be announced shortly. The Minister's objectives are to ensure an adequate supply of teachers and to maintain a reasonable balance between the supply and demand of teachers. She wants to avoid a situation where there is an over-supply of secondary teachers which would result in public outcry about the number of teachers who cannot get employment, as happened not so long ago. I am sure that is something which Senator Ormonde, who is involved in career guidance, would appreciate. Training people for vacancies which do not exist is putting people to a lot of expense and causes a lot of frustration. It makes sense to have a reasonable balance between supply and demand.

The exact forecasting of teacher requirements is a difficult exercise but from the enrolment projections and other information available to the Minister and the Department, it appears that the quota of higher diploma in education students enrolled for the 1994-95 academic year will be adequate to fill the vacancies available.

As regards the higher diploma in education intake for 1995-96, the Minister is re-examining the position and she will take into account such factors as enrolment projections, the estimated teacher numbers required and other statistical information. Other features which will have a bearing on the question are wastage and retirement of teachers, transition year take-up and the likely additional posts to be approved for schools for 1996-97. These issues will be balanced against the total teacher supply, the output from specialist teacher training colleges, such as home economics, physical education and technology, and from higher diploma courses. It is, therefore, a complex exercise to put it all together.

In attempting to make projections, it is impossible to guess how some schools will attempt to fill their vacancies, for example, how they will redeploy existing staff and what subject mix they will seek in advertising the vacant post. Another problem is that there are perceived shortages of teachers of certain subjects. The mobility of teachers comes into play here, and the location of the school may well have a bearing on the ease with which a specific vacant post can be filled. The output from higher diploma in education courses does not ensure any specific mix of basic degrees.

According to the most recent data available, the Higher Education Authority's report on the first destination of award recipients in higher education, only 5 per cent of those who got their higher diploma in 1993 secured a permanent teaching post. I recognise the point made by Senator Daly that some people perhaps get temporary places before they are appointed to a permanent position. However, we are considering this issue against a background where we will shortly have a very sharply falling cohort of students going into second level education. Those born at the peak of our birth rate are aged 15 years and working their way through the system.

Mr. Daly

The teacher's retirement scheme will open up vacancies.

Ms E. Fitzgerald

All these factors must be taken into account. It is frustrating to train people if there are no vacancies, which is why there must be some balance. There is an ongoing review in the light of the factors I have outlined.

The Minister expects to make a decision shortly on the number of places on higher diploma courses for the 1995-96 academic year. I will take back to her the concerns expressed by the Senators on this matter. I know how frustrating it is for young graduates trying to get on a course and not knowing where they stand. Whatever limit is put on the numbers, there is much scope for improving the way it is organised. In this respect a CAO or some kind of points system may be considered. For example, if there is a shortage of science teachers, why should all French graduates get places on higher diploma courses? There is room to consider the whole system.

The Seanad adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 14 July 1995.