Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Oct 1995

Vol. 144 No. 18

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Today's business is item 1, the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill. I did not have an opportunity to discuss this with all the Whips but I suggested to those available that if Second Stage finishes early, there will be a sos of about 20 minutes and we will then take Committee and Remaining Stages, by agreement.

For the information of the House I will deal with a number of issues mentioned previously on the Order of Business. On a number of occasions Senator Daly raised the progress of the Arterial Drainage Act, which began its life in and owed much of its impetus to this House. The Minister of State, Deputy Coveney, will come to the House in two to three weeks to give a progress update on the implementation of that legislation and to take questions from Members. I will discuss the date with Senator Daly and others later.

Senator O'Toole and others asked for a debate on education. The Minister for Education will be here next Thursday after the Order of Business for a debate on that topic. I suggest the structure should be short contributions in which Members can raise matters of concern to them and, as on previous occasions, we will have 30 minutes for questions and answers at the end. If speakers who wish to take part could indicate in advance we will be able to allocate time on a fairer basis. It will be an important debate and I am glad the Minister will be available next Thursday.

At the request of Senator Fitzgerald there will be a debate on the work and reports of Comhchoiste don Ghaeilge. I will speak to the Senator and others about its structure within the next two weeks. Senator Roche asked for a discussion on the Ombudsman's report, and that also is in hand. Senator Finneran and others asked for a debate on health, which I am pursuing. I will return to the House with definite dates for those requests which can be accommodated, including those for debates on drugs and nuclear policy.

On the Order of Business yesterday, Senator Roche asked about the timetable for the publication of the Freedom of Information Bill. It will not be published in this session.

Mr. Fitzgerald

The Leader was very informative this morning — he gave a great rundown of the work ahead.

Mr. Enright

Freedom of information.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Cuirim fáilte speisialta roimh Lá na Gaeilge don Teach. I fully support that and am delighted we have agreement on it. We can discuss later what form it will take. We are in agreement with the Order of Business. Is it to be 30 minutes per speaker on Second Stage; will we complete all Stages today?

Mr. Manning

Yes.

Mr. Fitzgerald

When is it proposed to bring the Harbours Bill before the House? Members from all parts of the country will be interested in it because it involves county councils and harbours.

Mr. Daly

It brings down Governments.

Mr. O'Toole

Ba mhaith liom comhgairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Seanadóir ón Daingean. He has received a huge promotion — I understood he was appointed Opposition Whip but today he is Leader of the Opposition, Whip and front bench all in one.

Mr. Magner

He is vying with Senator O'Toole.

Mr. O'Toole

I will ring home today to ensure the bonfires are burning from Lispole to Dingle to greet him. I thank the Leader for organising the education debate. The fact that there will be short contributions and questions means it will be lively. We have no difficulty about the arrangements for today's business and I am sorry I was unavailable.

It is important to give the Leader new challenges all the time, now that he has dealt with the education debate. The Joint Committee on European Affairs is dealing with next year's intergovernmental conference. It is ironic that we are tearing ourselves apart on the minutiae and interpretations of a divorce referendum when far greater changes in terms of the impact on people's lives will result from the Intergovernmental Conference and the review of the treaty next year. We should have a major debate outlining the issues which will be dealt with during that period. People do not know how this will impact on citizenship, neutrality and defence and foreign policy, the three pillar issues of which even Members of both Houses are not aware at present. It is crucially important to hold this debate and perhaps the MEPs could become involved in the Joint Committee on European Affairs. There is no reason why that could not happen and I ask the Leader to consider this point.

It may not be appropriate to raise this issue, but when is the Electoral Bill likely to come before the House? I am concerned about the near invisibility of Senators in that legislation and I urge Members to read the Bill now. The way it deals with Members of this House is utterly unacceptable. I am aware that I am breaching my rights a little by raising this point.

Mr. Lanigan

Breaching his rights?

Mr. O'Toole

It is almost that time of the decade to carry out the unmentionable matter — Members who are likely to be embarrassed should put their fingers in their ears — of the review of parliamentary salaries and allowances. What is happening in that regard? Wearing my trade union hat, I ask the Leader to ensure that this process is put in place quickly. Has any contact or moves forward been made?

Mr. Dardis

The Order of Business as outlined by the Leader is satisfactory. My only question, which concerned the time for each speaker, has already been answered. I compliment the Leader for heading off some potential problems. He is becoming most adept at this aspect. However, I remind him that we will look to the Minister for Education in the debate next week to address the important matter of academic independence. We want some detail about her proposals for the boards and particularly Trinity College. It is a central point that universities should be allowed to conduct their affairs independently. I will address this aspect next week.

I support Senator O'Toole's point about the Intergovernmental Conference. Ireland will hold the Presidency next year and it will be an important part of the Maastricht Treaty. I was one of those who held a relatively liberal view of common foreign policy and defence until I considered the actions of France with respect to nuclear testing and its act of piracy by again boarding the Greenpeace vessel this week. I understand this did not even occur in their territorial waters. Will the Leader arrange a debate on the Intergovernmental Conference? This is an important matter which is fast approaching and we need to have a view on it.

Mr. Maloney

I am pleased by the Leader's statement that the Minister for Health will come to the House soon to discuss mental health. One must be concerned when one considers the movement of people from psychiatric hospitals to the community which is taking place. I read an article in a newspaper this morning about the Eastern Health Board moving psychiatric patients who were quite happy in a hostel to another area to make room for a drugs unit. Every health board has a problem in relation to psychiatric patients, who may be unprepared, being sent out to the community. I welcome the debate and it should be held as soon as possible.

Will the Leader consider holding a debate on sport? The House should consider violence in sport, given that crowd trouble has occurred at soccer and gaelic football matches and referees have been assaulted. There have also been deaths in boxing. The Council of Europe recently discussed discrimination against women in sport.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader, Senator.

Mr. Maloney

Will the Leader ask the Minister with responsibility for sport to come to the House for a debate on this matter? I am concerned about discrimination against women in Muslim countries. This is spreading throughout Europe and there is an attempt to stop such women participating in sport. This matter should be debated.

Miss Ormonde

I thank the Leader for arranging a debate on education. This debate is timely because there is much confusion with regard to new courses coming on stream.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs or the Minister of State to come to the House for a debate on the upcoming Intergovernmental Conference? A reflection group is discussing various issues at present but this has received little publicity. A debate in the House would provide a golden opportunity to highlight the Intergovernmental Conference. The public does not really know what is going on and a debate would be opportune.

Mr. Norris

I strongly support my colleague, Senator O'Toole, in raising the Electoral Bill. I made a note to raise this issue, which is a question of money. We read in the newspapers at the weekend that it is proposed to give grants to political parties and, according to one newspaper, £15,000 to the Independent Deputies. It would be completely wrong to exclude this House totally. The Bill as it is currently framed would probably not meet a constitutional test, especially if the Independent Senators were excluded.

A case must be made on behalf of this House. It took me ten years and six elections, including a by-election, to get into the House and I estimate that, with interest, it cost me approximately £60,000 to do so. After eight years hard work in the House, I have just paid off that amount and I only now have disposable income to spend on political work. I wish to flag the position.

Mr. O'Toole

We also need an increase in salary.

Mr. Norris

We need an increase in salary. We are far too diffident in accepting——

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader, Senator.

Mr. Norris

We work hard and we are paid considerably less than we would otherwise be paid. If I charged on a consultancy fee basis for the time I spent in the House——

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader of the House.

Mr. Norris

——the State could not afford it. I am not grasping enough to demand that, but I would like fair pay for hard work.

I agree with my colleague, Senator Dardis, in calling for a debate on the nuclear programme. This also chimes with Senator O'Toole's point about the importance of discussing the European arrangement. Do we want to be associated in a military alliance or defence pact with the gang of criminals now running the French Government? They are prepared to engage in acts of piracy——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing that issue today, Senator.

Mr. Norris

——in waters which are not their own.

An Cathaoirleach

It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Norris

Having already murdered somebody in New Zealand, they now set about invading the waters of a friendly country which is a member of the European Union. It is astonishing——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, we are not discussing that matter today. It is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. Norris

——that this is tolerated internationally. Yesterday, Members properly referred to the religious sensitivities of Members of the other House and the way in which they were abused in the divorce issue. Reference was made to the Jewish faith of two prominent Deputies. How sincere are we about this matter? I refer to the prayer which opens the business of the House each day. I am a practising member of the Church of Ireland and I attend church virtually every Sunday, but I strongly object to the business of the House opening every day with a prayer which states we are being directed and guided by Jesus Christ. There are people who do not believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader of the House, Senator.

Mr. Norris

Is there any requirement, either constitutionally or under the Standing Orders of the House, which cannot be changed that compels us to have a sectarian prayer to open the day's business?

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Finneran.

Mr. Lanigan

Follow that.

Mr. Finneran

For a moment I did not know whether I was in a synagogue or a stable.

Mr. Daly

A wailing wall.

Mr. Finneran

I support Senator Maloney's call for a debate on the White Paper. The bottom line as regards community care and the psychiatric service is not and will not be what is in the White Paper. Extra resources and finances are required and part of the problem is that Governments, both past and present, have not recognised that community care is an expensive option. I understand many of the problems that have arisen in that area. When a debate is held we must discuss resources in addition to the structures which will be put in place.

Given the storms and flooding over the last two days, it is appropriate for the Leader of the House to ask the Minister for the Environment to come to the House and explain why no moneys have been allocated to address the flooding problems which were experienced earlier this year and which people may face again. We wasted a lot of time debating the issue and no moneys have been provided to any local authority, as far as I know.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader, Senator.

Mr. Finneran

Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Minister for the Environment to attend the House so we can debate the matter again? Hopefully, we will arrive at a resolution of the matter on this occasion. We do not want people to have to endure once again the hardships they endured during the spring.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Senator. We will not discuss the matter on the Order of Business.

Mr. Magner

With regard to the point made by Senator O'Toole and Senator Norris as to the provisions in the Electoral Bill, 1995, for funding for political parties, it is not nor should it be the intention of the Government to discriminate against Independent Members of the Oireachtas. It is a matter that should be discussed at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges because there is a case to be made in relation to ensuring the Independents in the Oireachtas are given the same financial conditions as members of political parties.

With regard to the anti-Jewish remarks made by elements in the antidivorce campaign, I would point out that former Senator Des Hanafin has condemned that action publicly.

An Cathaoirleach

The matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Magner

It is proper that when somebody does the right thing it is acknowledged.

Mr. Norris

Absolutely. He is a decent man.

Mr. Lanigan

I have never heard such discriminatory remarks in the House. Senator Maloney talked about the Muslims with regard to sport and I reject what he has said. How can he bring sport into the Muslim religion? Jesus Christ was then torn apart by Senator Norris. This House should not be a place——

Mr. Norris

That is rubbish. It is total nonsense.

Mr. Lanigan

It is rubbish. It is what the Senator said.

An Cathaoirleach

This matter does not arise on the Order of Business. Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Mr. Lanigan

Anybody who has a religious belief should not——

Mr. Norris

A Chathaoirligh, I will not tolerate this. I wish to make a point of order.

Mr. Lanigan

——be attacked in this House. Muslims should not be attacked and Jesus Christ should not be attacked.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris on a point of order.

Mr. Norris

On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh, I ask you to require Senator Lanigan to withdraw that most offensive remark. I prefaced what I said by saying I was a member of the Church of Ireland, a practising Christian who goes to church every Sunday. I object strenuously to being told that I "tore Jesus Christ apart".

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure Senator Lanigan, on reflection, will withdraw the remark.

Mr. Lanigan

I will not withdraw the remark because all the Senator has done is to tell me he will not withdraw the remark he made.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Senator Lanigan to withdraw the remark, in the interests of the orderly running of the House.

Mr. Lanigan

May I have a copy of what Senator Norris said?

An Cathaoirleach

The transcript will be available to the Senator. I ask him to withdraw the remark.

Mr. Lanigan

If the transcript says —

An Cathaoirleach

I ask you to withdraw the remark, Senator.

Mr. Lanigan

I withdraw.

Mrs. McGennis

Has the Leader any indication when the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry will introduce the control of horses legislation, which received a lot of attention recently? There are big problems in the Blanchardstown and Lucan area and there is traffic chaos every morning in the Palmerstown area due to large numbers of wandering horses.

Mr. Manning

It is an old rule in the House that the longer the Order of Business continues the more heat and the less light it generates. Senator Fitzgerald raised the issue of the Harbours Bill, 1995. It was expected to be passed by the Dáil this week but has not been. It will be in this House almost as soon as it finishes in the Dáil and I expect it in the next couple of weeks.

Senator O'Toole and others referred to the education debate. For those who were not here for the beginning of the Order of Business, I repeat that the education debate will be next Thursday. I would like the Whips to meet and to agree a structure for it beforehand. Senator O'Toole raised an important point with regard to the Intergovernmental Conference and I will invite the Minister responsible to come to the House to debate that issue. It is an important matter and we deserve to know what is happening.

Independent Senators and others referred to the Electoral Bill, 1995. If there are anomalies they can be addressed on Committee Stage. I would advise the Independent Senators to get together with the Independent Deputies because, as I understand it, whatever funding is to be available will be on a party or group basis. The Bill will be debated in the House.

Mr. Norris

I do not believe we can amend it in this House because it will contain a financial provision.

Mr. Manning

Senator O'Toole raised the matter of the review of parliamentary allowances, not salaries. I will inquire as to the matter and get back to the Senator. With regard to Senator Maloney's point, I do not have any real jurisdiction in that regard.

We are not compelled to have the prayer in the House. It has been the tradition since the foundation of the State, but if Senator Norris has problems in that regard perhaps he could refer the matter for discussion at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Senator Finneran was not here when I said that the Minister of State will come to the House in response to a request from the Senator and others to give an update and take questions on the implementation of the legislation to deal with flooding. That will be in about two or three weeks; I will give the Senator the exact date later. In reply to Senator McGennis, I do not have an exact date for that matter but I will come back to her on it.

Order of Business agreed to.