It is proposed to take items 1, 2 and 17, motion 22, today. It is proposed to take Committee and Remaining Stages of item 1 and item 2 until 6 p.m., depending on the availability of time at the conclusion of item 1. I suggest a time limit of 20 minutes per speaker on item 2. Item 17, motion 22, will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Order of Business.
Do I understand that if time is not available to deal with item 2 it will remain on the agenda for consideration later? If time remains at the conclusion of item 1 perhaps an arrangement might be made to reorder the business of the House to afford the debate on item 2 its proper standing.
On a number of occasions we have requested a debate on crime and drug related activities during this session and the Leader has agreed. I believe this House needs an opportunity to discuss the Government's policy on crime in light of statements made by the Garda Commissioner in his request for further prison spaces to be made available in the fight against rising crime and in relation to a recent settlement made by the State to the victim of a prisoner on early release. I urge the Leader to provide time in the coming weeks for a full debate in this House to give the Opposition an opportunity to put forward its views and ideas on dealing with crime.
I also raised the issue of a debate on Northern Ireland. Some very constructive debates have taken place in this House during the past year. Before the visit of President Clinton at the end of this month, Members should be given a chance to air their views and opinions on the way forward in relation to the situation in Northern Ireland. I urge the Leader to provide time for such a debate.
I would like to again raise the issue of the intergovernmental conference which takes place next year. The changes likely to emerge from those discussions will have a far greater impact on our lives than anything which might be decided in the referendum that takes place later this month. I ask the Leader to consider inviting involvement from those Irish MEPs responsible for dealing with this issue at European level. The Leader is now entitled to invite people other than Members of the House to participate in our debates following the changes made to Standing Orders. I ask him to consider providing time for such a debate.
I understand the difficulties in encouraging people's interest in Europe but there seems to be an extraordinary neglect in providing information. People must recognise the changes which will take place in their lives following the next year's discussions with regard to neutrality, citizenship, legal rights, etc. The MEPs and Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs should be invited to this House to indicate Government policy. It is an extraordinary problem. An understanding exists in Europe with regard to the position of every member state except Ireland about many of these issues. Much European documentation containing space for the Irish view on citizenship, etc., remains blank. We need to discuss this issue so that there will not be a panic next spring.
I support Senator Wright's call for a debate on law and order, particularly in light of the incidents which took place in the Bally-fermot area last night. Listening to the Garda Superintendent this morning, it was evident that he felt he was not getting the proper back up. That is something we need to address within the scope of that debate.
Last week I raised with the Leader the question of what I saw — and what my party and others see — as undue interference in the affairs of Trinity College Dublin. In the business which has been circulated since last Thursday and in today's Order of Business, the Leader said we would take statements on education; he said that in response more to a call from Senator O'Toole than to anything I said. Is the Leader prepared to debate a substantive motion on this issue? Senator Honan and I put down a motion on it, item 17, motion 23. When will this matter be dealt with? Under the rota for Private Members' time, it will be after Christmas before a Progressive Democrats motion is heard. We seem to be heard on an irregular basis. There have been more selective leakings in today's newspaper of the Minister's plans, or non-plans, for the university and we need to know what is the situation. This is the place to establish the facts, not in the columns of The Irish Independent.
We are not discussing the matter now.
There is another point I want to make. A briefing document is purported to have been circulated to Senators. I certainly did not get a briefing document. I do not know who got a briefing document. Where is this briefing document? What does it say? When are we going to have this substantive motion debated? Will we have the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry sending his personal representative down——
I will give the Senator an answer if he wishes.
——to every farm in the country because sheep farmers, as we learned for the survey of farms today, get 90 per cent of their income from direct payments?
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
I ask the Leader to provide time to debate a serious situation which arises from the Taoiseach's statement last weekend. The Taoiseach said there would be no additional funding, whether it is INTERREG, Cohesion or other EU funding; he said all the funding would be within the Government's expenditure programme but there would be no additionality. That sounds a note of warning to the Border counties and the west which were expecting funds. Without consulting anybody, I have had to write to the Regional Development Commissioner, Ms Monika Wulf-Mathies, advising her that, although I have made many attempts to raise this matter and have it satisfactorily discussed in this House, the Leader has failed to provide time to discuss it.
A question to the Leader.
This is an urgent matter and it is even more urgent after the Taoiseach's statement over the weekend when he said there would be no additionality, that our monetary constraints were so tight that the Government was going to stick to the 2 per cent increase and that the only thing which mattered was the Maastricht——
We are not discussing the matter here today.
We are not discussing the matter here today, unfortunately.
A question to the Leader.
I am looking for no more latitude than other Members. I think the business I want to discuss is of equal importance——
A question to the Leader.
The Leader is forcing me, as a Member for the Border region, to go direct to the Commission in view of the Taoiseach's serious statement. Every elected Member——
A question to the Leader.
——from all political parties is concerned by the Taoiseach's statement. I ask that this matter be discussed in the House. Hopefully, the Taoiseach has made a mistake. Will the Leader kindly provide time as a matter of urgency?
I am sure the Leader understands precisely what the Senator has asked.
In agreeing with the question from the leader of my group, I am hopeful the Leader will make time available for a law and order debate. When the Minister for Justice comes here, I ask the Leader to widen the discussion to include the prison spaces, penal policy and the bail laws. The Leader will be aware that the Garda Commissioner said the shortage of jail accommodation is a big contributor to the rising crime rate. We should also have an assurance from the Leader, and perhaps from the Minister, that none of the thugs involved in the riots last night was on bail or on temporary release.
If the Minister's hands are being tied by the more liberal elements in Labour and Democratic Left, she can come to this House and be assured that we will support law and order policies because the people are sick and tired of the failure of this Government.
That is not a question and it is certainly not relevant to the Order of Business. I am asking the Senator to resume his seat.
Cop yourself on.
I am trying to help the Minister.
The Senator is an upstart.
For a change I want to compliment a Minister. The Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Currie, is entitled to compliments regarding his statements during the last 48 hours. He has decided to implement 42 sections of the Child Care Act, and he has given a commitment that all other sections will be implemented between now and Christmas. We have raised this matter on a number of occasions over the last 12 months and we should respond to such a welcome development in a positive way.
In view of the serious allegations and Garda investigations into the alleged malpractice of a Cork doctor, will the Minister for Health make a statement, in this House or elsewhere, to allay the fears of those concerned? Given the widespread concern, the Minister should assure the public that no such practices can or will be tolerated and that the strictest procedures are in place to prevent this happening in future.
I ask the Leader to convey the congratulations of the House to the research team headed by Dr. Peadar Kirk and Professor John Scott for the breakthrough in identifying causes of spina bifida. Spina bifida affects more Irish people than any other race and the team has identified that its cause is genetic. I also ask the Leader to communicate with the Minister for Health to take on board some of the recommendations of the research group. These include fortifying flour, bread and milk with folic acid, as well as using our health boards to encourage all women of child bearing age to take folic acid regularly to prevent the incidence of spina bifida.
I agree with the recent statement by the Garda Commissioner in so far as it underlines the need for the Government to proceed with the Castlerea prison project without further delay. I support the call to the Leader for a debate on justice matters. A day long debate is necessary since so many Members will wish to contribute on so many related issues.
I join with Senator Finneran in his generous tribute to the Minister of State, Deputy Currie. This House made substantial amendments to the Child Care Bill. I fought hard with former Senator Brendan Ryan to include the special provision for the interests of children, the ad vitem clause.
I was pleased that Senator Kelly mentioned the research carried out by Professor John Scott and his colleagues, but she omitted to mention that that was in Trinity College Dublin. It is precisely these kinds of research projects that are threatened by the Government's attitude towards education.
It is a very definitive question, a very interesting dissertation.
For that reason I would be interested to have the debate on education the Leader promised as well as looking at the matters raised by Senator Dardis. While we welcome the caring interest in the fate of Trinity College and the other universities, it would have been a good idea to have discussed this in detail with representatives of the universities so that we could have a joint position on the matter.
I ask the Leader to verify that the Labour Party, either in Government with Fine Gael or in coalition with Fianna Fáil, has never equivocated when dealing with crime. Senator Mulcahy's disgraceful remark was cheap and unfounded.
I touched a sensitive nerve.
He is so empty that all he can do is reduce this House to a soapbox and peddle lies.
I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader or resume his seat.
It is accepted by his colleagues on the Fianna Fáil benches——
I ask the Senator to resume his seat.
I strongly suggest that he withdraw his remark. I ask the Leader to put Senator Mulcahy back in his box because what he said was a lie. His colleagues know it was a lie and he should withdraw it.
I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader of the House.
He is a liar.
I ask the Senator to resume his seat.
I refrained from getting involved as I believe in the order of the House, but Senator Magner has clearly used an unacceptable word. He said "he is a liar".
Yes he is.
I am sure Senator Magner will withdraw that remark on reflection.
He has repeated it.
I withdraw the remark only in deference to the House.
I support the call for a debate on law and order because matters have become more serious even in the past week. We got rid of the "Lugs" Brannigans of Dublin and the big Pat Flynns of Sligo and replaced them with psychologists and psychiatrists. That has failed and it is time we brought back the "Lugs" Brannigans and the Pat Flynns. I ask the Minister for Justice to come to the House to discuss this topic because law and order has got out of hand.
I support the views expressed by Senator McGowan on European funding. I tried to raise this matter on the Adjournment. Can the Minister for the Environment give us an indication of the present situation in relation to the Cohesion Fund for water and sewerage schemes, many of which have been held up because of the failure to get clearance from the Government or Brussels? It is not clear where the bottleneck is and a number of schemes dealing with important environmental issues have been delayed because of the situation relating to the Cohesion Fund. It is critical because we are approaching the end of the year and if these schemes are to begin early next year, we must get some indication as regards the situation.
Will the Leader ask the Minister Transport, Energy and Communications if he has any plans on transportation over the Christmas period? We all know about the disaster last year — I believe I speak for all sides — when people had to wait two or three hours for a taxi. Will the Minister arrange for buses to continue to run until 1 a.m? If that cannot be done, would he allow private buses to operate?That is very important.
I concur with the comments of my Border colleague, Senator McGowan. The alleged statement by the Taoiseach at a meeting in Donegal last week in relation to additionality is already causing grave concern in the Border counties. His parliamentary colleague, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, promised there would be an element of additionality once the Delors package was put in place, which would mean a great deal for the enhancement of prosperity in the Border counties. We have been waiting for this money and now we understand there will be no additionality and that these funds will be used as a substitute for Exchequer funding. We would be grateful for some clarification of what was said.
In the context of the law and order debate, many calls have been made in this House for debates on Northern Ireland, which are usually taken by the Tánaiste. However, as most Members are aware, the Minister for Justice is also present at the discussions on Anglo-Irish relations and travels to London and Stormont.
A question for the Leader.
My question relates to reports in the media in the last few days about alleged foot dragging on the part of the British Government over the transfer of 30 republican prisoners to this jurisdiction. In the context of the signing into law today of the ratification by this Government of the European Convention on the Transfer of Prisoners I would be very grateful if the Leader could establish, through the Minister, who, if necessary, should come into the House for a debate on law and order or Northern Ireland——
The Senator has made his point.
——the position of the British Government. This Government has accepted the principle of the transfer of 30 republican prisoners. It is crucial to the continuance of the peace process and is a crucial part of Sinn Féin's position——
The Senator is making a speech; I have given him a good deal of latitude.
I appreciate that. I hope the Leader has got the essence of what I said and I would be grateful for a response.
As a comparatively new Member of the Seanad and in view of the fact that this is a legislative body with powers under the Constitution, I ask the Leader if, on the Order of Business, it is his intention to organise this House in such a way that questions could be raised on legislation or proposed legislation and not on whether people can get taxis home at certain times of the year?
That is legislation.
After that last contribution, I am almost fearful to put a question.
No hackneyed questions.
I also ask the Leader to make time for a full day's debate on the issue of law and order. There is no monopoly of concern about this on any side of the House and there is concern throughout the land that we are beginning to lose confidence in the institutions of law and order, which would be dangerous.
Last week I raised the issue of the freedom of information Bill. What is the position on that Bill? During its Second Stage in this House, the Bill which I proposed was effectively put on ice pending the Minister bringing forward her Bill. We understood she would come here in October and it is now November. I understand there are difficulties at interdepartmental level. The draft Government Bill I saw is extremely restricted and not one which any person who is interested in public service reform on any side of the House would endorse.
I again ask for a debate on the Western European Union, not necessarily on foreign affairs in its widest sense. However, we need a debate on the expansion of European Union. We are going to face a referendum as a result of the intergovernmental conference. I believe the people are so unprepared politically for the issues which they will face in that referendum that there is a very real chance it would be lost. It would be a good idea to have that debate at this stage.
It was suggested that a document has been circulated about the governance of universities. If such a document has been prepared, could it be circulated to all sides? I have never seen it and I would have a professional interest in it.
The Government has promised to introduce legislation restricting the concept of ministerial responsibility. The Taoiseach recently suggested introducing a new concept in administrative law called personal responsibility which was promised in the programmes for Government of both this and the previous Government. When will we see that? Could the Leader ascertain if that Bill could be introduced in this House?
As Fianna Fáil spokesperson on Northern Ireland I ask the Leader to bring to the Taoiseach's attention that this House would like a response to statements which imply that the British Government is deliberately dragging its feet on the Northern peace process in order to ensure maximum impact closer to the British general election.This statement came from a senior source in the SDLP and is a matter of great concern which I would like to see addressed in this House. From the same source comes the implication that the Irish Government's position is no longer of particular relevance or concern. This is very serious, irrespective of the party to which one belongs. I would like the Taoiseach or the Government spokesman to address this issue. This is in support of my continuing request to the Leader for a debate on Northern Ireland.
I want to add one point on the burning topic of law and order. I was a member of the Government which recognised, albeit belatedly, the need for prison space. We made provision in the Estimates for the prison in County Roscommon.The current Government, for reasons best known to itself, decided to cancel that decision.
A question to the Leader.
Can we be reassured that, in its re-examination of that decision which is causing great problems, the Government will act urgently to provide adequate prison space?
I would welcome a debate on the problem of alcoholism in Ireland. A report was commissioned in 1989 and I believe a draft report is now ready. A debate would be timely in view of the number of working days lost in Ireland and the effects alcoholism has on our younger population.
Will the Leader consult with the Taoiseach to ascertain what steps he will take to prevent she who cannot be mentioned from entering the political domain before each referendum on the side of the liberal agenda and whether she will continue to do this?
Is it possible to have a debate on the postal services? The European Commission plans to deregulate postal services in order to foster greater competition. This will have grave implications for the rural post office. The Leader has been asked for a number of debates but I ask him to keep this in mind. I said recently that we are not kept fully informed of happenings in the EU. If the EU can introduce regulations over our heads which have serious implications for us, we should have a debate on the EU.
There are calls for debates on various subjects today but I must get my priorities right and ask for a debate on agriculture. I asked the Leader about this last week and he said it could be arranged in Private Members' time. I do not agree because it is too important a matter to be dealt with in that way. Government time should be provided for such a debate, especially in view of the unrest in the farming community over such matters as sheep farming and the delay in processing applications for grants to tackle farm pollution. I also read bad news in the paper today where the EU is going to refuse Ireland's reclassification submission——
I take it you are seeking a debate on these issues.
It is very important that we have a debate on agriculture. There are now only 54 days to Christmas and, given all the calls for debates, I hope the Leader will find time for a debate on this important subject. I also agree with the call for a debate on law and order, especially as Limerick has its crime problems. Tractors in Munster are being stolen. Many houses are being burgled for example, the house of neighbours of mine, two elderly brothers, who are also near neighbours of the Fine Gael spokesperson on Justice, was broken into.
I support the calls for a debate on law and order. We should discuss certain issues including bail and the need for additional prison places. If the Minister is to attend the House, will the Leader add to the list of issues for discussion the condition of some of the Garda stations throughout the country? I had occasion to attend my local Garda station at Blanchardstown last Sunday night. The conditions gardaí must work under are deplorable. Shortly after her appointment, the Minister announced that we were to get a new Garda station. I am sure she will continue to fight for this within the Cabinet and I support her.
I disagree with Senator Sherlock's remarks on the question of transport, a very important matter. During the previous session we were subjected to a very heavy lobby, inside the House and outside the gates, from those involved in the Centre for Independent Living. They made a hard plea to us to recognise the problems they are experiencing in terms of transport. While I was at the gates, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry, met those involved and told them he would address the matter. Will the Leader ask the Minister to make public transport, or at least some parts of it, accessible to those who are disabled?
When I raised the Control of Horses Bill last week the Leader indicated that he did not know when it would be introduced to the House. I was a member of a cross-party deputation who met the Minister. Owing to threats and physical violence, local authority officials are no longer rounding up these unfortunate animals. There is, therefore, a need, as a matter of urgency, for this legislation to be introduced.
I listened to a debate on radio yesterday where this House and the other House came across as being in the middle ages in so far as information technology is concerned. It was suggested that there were only two Members of the Houses, both Ministers, who could use or did use the Internet or E-mail. If these Ministers can have these facilities installed in their offices, would the Leader ask the Minister for Finance to give each Senator at least the use of a PC?
This is not a matter for the Order of Business.
It is a matter for the Order of Business. On many occasions Members have complained about the proliferation of arms throughout the world. We have asked that armaments production be stopped and that countries be prevented from supplying arms to areas of conflict. On a day when there are conflicts all over the world, a firm in Belfast is being praised for gaining a huge contract to produce hand held missile throwers, the most sophisticated missile throwers in the world.
A question for the Leader.
I am asking the question but I must lay the groundwork first. This material is being bought by the British Ministry for Defence as well as by other European countries and it is being manufactured in Belfast. There has been a great deal of talk about decommissioning arms——
A question for the Leader.
I ask the Minister for Defence, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste to seek to ensure that armaments are not exported from this island. If Northern Ireland wishes to increase jobs it should not be at the expense of the people who will be killed by the missile thrower.
As spokesperson on communications and transport for a major political party in Opposition, I support Senator Fitzgerald's call for a debate on deregulating the postal service and the sentiments expressed about the urgent problems with the transport services. We should also have a discussion on the Green Paper on broadcasting.RTE and local radio have responded to the Green Paper and we have received copies of their responses. It would be timely to have a debate on the matter in this House.
It is very unfair that Ministers do not inform Senators about happenings and improvements that are taking place in their constituencies until two and three days after Members of the Dáil have been informed. I have had personal experience of this and I can furnish that information to the Leader.
That is not a matter for today's Order of Business. A question to the Leader.
I put the House on notice that I intend to raise this as a matter of urgency with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I also ask the Leader to have a debate on copyright and the pirate manufacturing that is taking place at present. In one instance a person was caught with 280,000 video and CD units but was only fined £500 in the courts. We are dealing——
We are not discussing the matter now. The Senator is seeking a discussion on copyright.
I want an urgent debate before the end of this month on abuses of copyright.
Before I call on the Leader of the House to reply, the Members of the House will wish to join me in welcoming members of the parliamentary delegation from the Islamic Republic of Iran led by Mr. Ali Akbar Nateq Nouri, Speaker of the Islamic Consultative Assembly. On behalf of the Members of Seanad Éireann I welcome them.
Senator Rory Kiely put it well when he said there are only 54 days until Christmas and we will need every one of them to cover all the topics raised today.
The Leader of the Opposition asked about the debate on the Ombudsman. The debate will be ongoing because it appears we will not have much time for it today. The Senator also asked for debates on crime and Northern Ireland. I guarantee there will be debates on each of these topics between now and the end of session and, I hope, sooner rather than later. I have also taken on board the views that the crime debate should be wide ranging.
Senator O'Toole mentioned a debate on the Intergovernmental Conference. I raised that issue with the Minister last week and he is agreeable in principle. We will find a date to hold such a debate. That debate might also accommodate Senator Roche's views on defence policy. It is one possibility to cover those issues.
Senator Dardis raised the education debate and the future of Trinity College and the National University. The position in that regard is as I explained to the House last week. The Minister circulated her proposals to the heads of universities some time ago and discussions have been taking place with them. These discussions, I am reliably informed from many sources, are positive and a number of difficulties are being ironed out at this stage. It is proposed to publish within the next few weeks a definite statement of the Government's intent — the Government's actual proposals and not what we read on the back page of The Irish Times or elsewhere. As soon as these proposals are published I will make time available for a full debate on them. It is better that we proceed on the basis of what is actually being proposed than on what people think is about to be proposed.It would not be very helpful to have a debate on the negotiations, before certain difficulties have been ironed out between the heads of the universities and the Minister.
I suggest that the open ended debate on education which was requested on many occasions by the other side of the House take place tomorrow along the lines suggested. I hope too much time will not be taken up on the Order of Business tomorrow because people will want to contribute to this debate. This debate will not exclude a discussion of third level education so if Members have concerns on that they can make them known to the Minister tomorrow and get her response. I do not want to lose a great deal of time at the beginning of the debate tomorrow in votes and procedural discussions. Education is something in which most Members have an interest. I would like to see the format we are adopting tomorrow used on many other subjects as well.
Senator Norris talked about consultation.The Minister should consult with the university Senators on any reform of third level education; they are elected by the graduates of the universities and would have a great deal to say. I will pass on that very worth-while suggestion to the Minister. Senator Dardis raised the question of a briefing document.There was a briefing document on the Minister's thinking sent out to all Government Senators. I was never briefed by Fianna Fáil when I was in Opposition.
Senator Cassidy is right — two or three days later.
I have no difficulty having that document made available to all sides of the House. It is simply a statement of where things are at present. It is all in today's Irish Independent. Senator McGowan raised the question of additionality. I will seek clarification on that and, if possible, make time available.It is reprehensible to insinuate, as Senator Mulcahy did, that any person or party in this House is soft on crime.
I will pass on Senator Finneran's comments to the Minister of State, Deputy Currie. The allegations against the Cork doctor are the subject of Garda inquiries.No charges have been made and it is not possible or right to make any further reference until charges have been made, if they are to be made. Senator Kelly had some very positive things to say about the Trinity College research team with which I agree. Other Senators referred to crime and EU funding. I will try to get information on Cohesion Funds for Senator Daly. Other points were not relevant to the Order of Business.
Senator Roche asked a question about the Freedom of Information Bill: I gave that information last week. This Bill will not be published before Christmas. I will take the other issues into account. Senator Lydon's cryptic and Delphic utterance I did not understand——
Everybody else did.
——and I do not have any responsibility. Senator Fitzgerald asked for a debate on the postal services.I will arrange this if time can be found. The whole postal service and the issue of deregulation is worth looking at. Senator Kiely is very persistent; I will try to find time for a debate on agriculture between now and Christmas. Senator McGennis spoke about the Centre for Independent Living and we should have a follow up on that. I will discuss it with the Senator later. My good friend, Senator Bohan, made a relevant point. I do not want to be discourteous to the Senator but I will try to get information on the question of transport.
I hope I have not forgotten points raised by anybody else; there were 28 contributors to the Order of Business.
What about copyright legislation?
Senator Cassidy indicated he would raise the matter with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I am now asking about the question of copyright.
I doubt if there will be time between now and Christmas to debate that matter but I will talk to Senator Cassidy about it. There is an irony and contradiction with regard to the point raised by Senator Lanigan. Whether I would want weapons kept in Northern Ireland is another question.
Has the Leader any comment to make on an issue which hinges on the peace process——
The Leader has replied.
——and is of grave importance, that is, the transfer of prisoners?
The Leader has replied. Senator Mooney must resume his seat.
He has made no comment at all.
On the question of the peace process I was asked whether there would be a debate on Northern Ireland and I said there would. The only other comment on the peace process was made by Senator O'Kennedy who reported what we all heard on the radio.
I made a comment in the context of the peace process relating to the transfer of prisoners.
Senator Manning without interruption.
I obviously overlooked what the Senator said. I will, of course, raise the question of the transfer of prisoners——
I will be happy to talk to the Leader later about this issue.
I welcome that.
Order of Business agreed to.